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Well Startale just applied so many of you will get your wish. I prefer Gomtv format. You fight from qualifier. You gotta win to make it to next step. If you can make it to korea you can try out for the tournament. Open tournaments with the best players making it through from an open qualifier is the magic of gsl.
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On March 16 2011 10:57 deerpark87 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:45 Subversion wrote:
Hey look, if Koreans put up application videos in English then all the power to them. They clearly want to be involved, and if they deserve a spot, I say invite them.
But I don't think we should just be throwing invitations at every gosu Korean there is. Like I've said before, a few Koreans is fantastic and makes things interesting. 35 Koreans does not. This whole topic all started in the "NASL Vod Thread" because Pokebunny didn't think Startale quality even when they post the video and i quote: Show nested quote +?? You saw July's video, they read these off a piece of paper probably prepared by a manager. Their videos are more of a turn-off to me than anything, as it shows they can't even communicate properly during the event. They don't want to be a part of the scene, they just want to win the cash with as little effort given as possible. Bashing NrG's manager who has grown the team for six years for a valid comment is also particularly classy.
The problem with Pokebunny's comment is that of course they want to win the event for the money. Everyone does. If there was no money in esports we'd all be playing, but for fun. No one would bother going out to a tourney. The reason the GSL is a draw is there's money behind it, same with MLG and NASL. The reason EU players travel is the money, not cause of the scene. That suggestion is ridiculous. If it was cause of the scene, they'd all stay in Europe, which they don't do.
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....... NASL talent with just Americans would be like watching WNBA and don't even bring up OHH we have IDRA, nahh idra got lucky because he's been playing for so long even MOON in "day9's" own words said he"s better then IDRA already. I only bring up day9 because you need credentials now a days. IMO Idra would have just fell out of gsl in the next 2 months. I want to watch GOOD GAMES not this scrub crap players play outside of korea
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On March 16 2011 10:44 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:42 caradoc wrote:On March 16 2011 10:37 Peas wrote:
Ask yourself who the top 50 players in the world are They're not all koreans. Not even half of them are. Name 32 foreigners better than ST.Ace. You'll have a hard time to name even five. Now name 32 Koreans better than ST.Ace. All you have to do is list the Code S roster.
Subjective argument.
He choked in his GSL matches for sure, he did not play on the same level as he played at IEM. He also played well in the GSTL, it's not reasonable to base his skill on the single Bo3 that he played against Virus. Virus himself is not just some scrub. I'm glad he lost anyway, I almost think he may have been told to throw the game, as getting a By into Code S would have made a joke of the whole qualifying process.
He didn't drop a single map until the finals at IEM. You don't win every single game against those players by being lucky or bad.
I would also say that he is as good as or better than a lot of players in Code S, certainly the protoss. Anypro, HungUn, BanBans are certainly not significantly better than Ace. He has achieved more and showed much better play than them as well.
Many "foreigners" (I really hate that term) better than Ace? Probably not a great amount no. But better than the worst players in Code S? Easily 32.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On March 16 2011 10:57 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:53 motbob wrote:On March 16 2011 10:47 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:36 motbob wrote:
All this talk about race and xenophobia reminds me of when people bring up the subject of antisemitism whenever Israel's policies are criticized. Stop it. There is a real element of both. How else do you explain people describing Korean players as boring, homogeneous, and having and unfair advantage due to 'lack of real-life commitments'? How do you explain people who prefer watching 'white' players over Koreans despite the fact a player's ethnicity has no direct relationship with his play-style? The truth of the matter is that people aren't complaining about EU players being allowed in the NASL at all. If the consensus is that EU players are better than NA players, why aren't people levying the same complaint about them? That fact alone betrays their implicit admission of prejudice against Korean players. If this sentiment is the face of Western E-Sports, I want no part of it and wish it to fail. Does overwhelming bias in favor of players like Idra and Jinro when they play in GSL imply racism? People naturally get more excited about players that speak their language and interact with their community. It has nothing to do with racism. The whole reason that Idra and Jinro had just huge viewer numbers is because they the only foreigners playing among the best competition in the world. Under your logic, MLG would be assumed to be 100 times more popular because it's ALL foreigners. That is obviously not the case. Are you someone who has difficulty looking at things in context?
Thank you for mentioning MLG. The fact that the tournament is wildly popular on this website (the longest LR thread on TL is for MLG), despite the level of play being less than that of GSL, supports my point that the ideal composition of a tournament's players isn't all about player skill.
Also: given your lack of reading comprehension and enormous leaps of logic in your recent posts, I would recommend that you stop being so condescending.
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On March 16 2011 10:48 Peas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:43 DystopiaX wrote:On March 16 2011 10:41 Peas wrote:On March 16 2011 10:24 Zeri wrote:On March 16 2011 10:14 Peas wrote:On March 16 2011 10:02 StUfF wrote:On March 16 2011 09:55 Peas wrote:
The NASL is the first major step towards creating the infrastructure we need. If 20+ korean's come here and dominate the tournament, it will DETER western based investors and it will suffocate our attempt to build a culture as strong as theirs I don't understand the this viewpoint at all. Do people not enjoy Tennis even when they aren't Swedish? (during Federer domination period) Isn't the EPL fantasically successful even when more than 50% of the players aren't British. Are so many Americans so egotistical that they can only "enjoy" watching other Americans play - and not appreciate the game for what it is. Terrible terrible, irrelevant, terrible examples. Its not about enjoying the game, its about having a culture that supports you such that yuo can dedicate your life to getting better. DO YOU NOT FCUKING UNDERSTAND THIS? btw Federer is not swedish Yea we need a culture that supports esports. You have failed address what I responded to your garbage post with earlier. The only way to foster that culture is to bring as many koreans as possible over and pit them against top Western pros. Yea koreans might kick the shit out of the westerners, but if a culture of them playing with and against eachother is established, then the skill divide will eventually go away. You are a complete idiot if you think that we can attain an esports culture without allowing koreans in. (Or as you put it 'that allowing koreans in will DETER western esports growth' I responded, you just arent competant enough to understand my points. I will repeat, bringing over as many koreans as possible will not foster a korean-like sc2 culture unless you actually had hundreds of these players actually move here permanently. Simply having them take all the top places (and thus all the money) in western tournaments isnt motivating for western players PRECISELY because western players arent yet on the same level. A loss is motivating when you could have won. Its demoralizing when you had no chance to begin with. Oh, so we should make it easier to make NA players feel better? Come on, if you can't handle it it has nothing to do with the competition. If you quit because you got your ass whupped you're not going to become a top progamer anywhere. On top of that, why do you pros have to be NA/EU? Nothing wrong with having Koreans in there. I am sick of you missing the point. I dont think a wizard could make you understand the fundimental issues I am trying to raise, so I will leave you to bask in your own ignorance.
So your whole point is that.
Competition doesnt matter.
Viewership doesn't matter.
Spectators don't matter.
What matters is somehow this tournament builds up the American "e-sports" culture, so that americans actually become competitive at Starcraft 2?
I can kinda see your point of view that there is no "incentive" to get better if there's no money/competition that NA players can enter, and if NASL is dominated by the best players of the world they realistically can't.
BUT the purpose of NASL is not to "improve" American play, it should not be their primary focus because as everyone is saying this will only lead down to insignificance. The purpose of NASL is to be successful, to be commercially viable and to grow e-sports. Maybe in a couple of year and NASL is widely successful you'll see american-only leagues and american-only tournaments that you and other viewers might want, bringing in the people who are after that kind of stuff.
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On March 16 2011 10:58 Baarn wrote:
Well Startale just applied so many of you will get your wish. I prefer Gomtv format. You fight from qualifier. You gotta win to make it to next step. If you can make it to korea you can try out for the tournament. Open tournaments with the best players making it through from an open qualifier is the magic of gsl.
bomber in NA would be epic.
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we should make it so the NASL has a 16 and older age limit to keep out Pokebunny =P
But seriously, they want the best of the best in this tournament. Dont you want to see your favorite "foreigners" go up against your favorite koreans? That's why everyone is so pumped up for TSL! Now imagine that over 13 weeks + and it'll be one hell of a tournament.
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On March 16 2011 11:01 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:57 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:53 motbob wrote:On March 16 2011 10:47 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:36 motbob wrote:
All this talk about race and xenophobia reminds me of when people bring up the subject of antisemitism whenever Israel's policies are criticized. Stop it. There is a real element of both. How else do you explain people describing Korean players as boring, homogeneous, and having and unfair advantage due to 'lack of real-life commitments'? How do you explain people who prefer watching 'white' players over Koreans despite the fact a player's ethnicity has no direct relationship with his play-style? The truth of the matter is that people aren't complaining about EU players being allowed in the NASL at all. If the consensus is that EU players are better than NA players, why aren't people levying the same complaint about them? That fact alone betrays their implicit admission of prejudice against Korean players. If this sentiment is the face of Western E-Sports, I want no part of it and wish it to fail. Does overwhelming bias in favor of players like Idra and Jinro when they play in GSL imply racism? People naturally get more excited about players that speak their language and interact with their community. It has nothing to do with racism. The whole reason that Idra and Jinro had just huge viewer numbers is because they the only foreigners playing among the best competition in the world. Under your logic, MLG would be assumed to be 100 times more popular because it's ALL foreigners. That is obviously not the case. Are you someone who has difficulty looking at things in context? Thank you for mentioning MLG. The fact that the tournament is wildly popular on this website (the longest LR thread on TL is for MLG), despite the level of play being less than that of GSL, supports my point that the ideal composition of a tournament's players isn't all about player skill. Also: given your lack of reading comprehension and enormous leaps of logic in your recent posts, I would recommend that you stop being so condescending.
Time zone is one thing. The LR thread is longer partially because more dudes are up. Hold the GSL at a decent US/EU time zone and it would be long as hell as well.
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So we should invite all the code S players and change the NASL name to GSL 2.0?
Invite some Koreans, Invite some Americans, Invite some Europeans, and Invite some SEA players.
If NASL gets a well rounded player base like I listed above they will be more "global" than the GSL
I don't want to see this loaded with 30 Koreans, 30 Americans, or 30 Europeans. I want a well balanced resume of players from around the globe.
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That comment by Pokebunny concerning July and the rest of ST's videos really rubbed me the wrong way. What an ugly side of yourself to show, Pokebunny. "Can't even communicate properly"? What is the matter with you? They've lived in and were educated in Korea all their lives, and you're going to fault them for having bad english, trying to use it against them as if not having good english makes you a faulty individual in some way? It's admirable and rather endearing that they even tried to speak english themselves rather than getting a buddy to translate for them.
Not only that, but you'd bash on their very integrity as pro-gamers ("Don't even want to be part of the scene, they just want to win cash with as little effort as possible"?)
I can't believe you'd try to misconstrue the players of ST to such a gross degree. You should be ashamed of yourself.
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On March 16 2011 11:01 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:57 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:53 motbob wrote:On March 16 2011 10:47 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:36 motbob wrote:
All this talk about race and xenophobia reminds me of when people bring up the subject of antisemitism whenever Israel's policies are criticized. Stop it. There is a real element of both. How else do you explain people describing Korean players as boring, homogeneous, and having and unfair advantage due to 'lack of real-life commitments'? How do you explain people who prefer watching 'white' players over Koreans despite the fact a player's ethnicity has no direct relationship with his play-style? The truth of the matter is that people aren't complaining about EU players being allowed in the NASL at all. If the consensus is that EU players are better than NA players, why aren't people levying the same complaint about them? That fact alone betrays their implicit admission of prejudice against Korean players. If this sentiment is the face of Western E-Sports, I want no part of it and wish it to fail. Does overwhelming bias in favor of players like Idra and Jinro when they play in GSL imply racism? People naturally get more excited about players that speak their language and interact with their community. It has nothing to do with racism. The whole reason that Idra and Jinro had just huge viewer numbers is because they the only foreigners playing among the best competition in the world. Under your logic, MLG would be assumed to be 100 times more popular because it's ALL foreigners. That is obviously not the case. Are you someone who has difficulty looking at things in context? Thank you for mentioning MLG. The fact that the tournament is wildly popular on this website (the longest LR thread on TL is for MLG), despite the level of play being less than that of GSL, supports my point that the ideal composition of a tournament's players isn't all about player skill. Also: given your lack of reading comprehension and enormous leaps of logic in your recent posts, I would recommend that you stop being so condescending.
MLG had three weekends worth of competition, averaging 150-200 pages per thread per tournament.
EVERY GSL match day has threads reaching 80-120 pages.
Which event do you think has higher total viewership?
And all of that DESPITE the time-zone issue.
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On March 16 2011 10:49 Ruseter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:20 Zzoram wrote:On March 16 2011 10:18 allecto wrote:On March 16 2011 09:57 Ruseter wrote:On March 16 2011 09:36 allecto wrote:On March 16 2011 06:42 motbob wrote:
Frankly, the best scene right now is clearly the Korean scene. The evidence for this is diverse and extremely convincing. In IEM, players who can generously be considered high Code A material wiped the floor with some of the best players the rest of the world had to offer. In the FXOpen, an international tournament, relative unknowns in the Korean scene oGsHero and TheStC placed first and second. Huk was one of the best players, if not the best player, in North America during the time between the launch of the game and his trip to Korea. He recently qualified for Code S after some struggle, implying that his dominance over the North American scene did not translate to dominance over the Korean scene.
The list goes on. Koreans are simply better right now.
Another thing we need to discuss before proceeding is that the NASL format is very, very favorable to players already in the league. The top 42 34 out of 50 players in an NASL season advance to the next season. So, we can probably assume that players such as MC, MVP, etc would never leave the league.
Given the above, I would be surprised if the NASL invites more than about 5 Koreans, and I would be surprised and disappointed if they were to invite the very top Koreans. I'll explain why.
The TSL is the best international tournament in terms of quality of play. The organizers invited the very best players because they wanted to see the very best play. But the NASL is not the TSL. It has very different goals from the TSL.
Forget the NASL intro video. "The best players the world has ever seen?" If that were their goal, they'd invite 30 Koreans. The NASL's goal is entertainment, and they have a very specific mindset about how to achieve that goal. We've seen that a big part of the league is about drama and storylines.
Inviting the top Koreans will make the NASL worse, for one main reason: the likes of MVP would trash the top foreigners in North America (barring maybe Idra) with no problems at all. It would not be close. If ST.Ace can smash some of the top Europeans without dropping a set, imagine what the very best players in Korea could do. That prospect does not appeal to me as a spectator, and I don't think it's an outcome that the NASL organizers want.
Inviting Koreans in general is problematic because it's difficult to create storylines and drama around them, but that can be mitigated by only inviting Koreans that are unique in some way, other than just being really good. Names that pop up in my head are July, GuineaPig (for his aggression both on the battlefield and in in-game chat), Squirtle, Moon (his play at IEM was like nothing I'd seen before).
So. Invite a few Koreans, ones that have a creative style, or better yet ones that have ties to the foreigner community already (like Cella!)
I can watch GSL if I want to see the best play in the world. I want NASL to have the highest entertainment value possible, and that's why I don't support inviting many Koreans or the best Koreans. I feel like there is a fundamental flaw in this sort of argument. I don't mean to imply these views necessarily as being infallible, but there is a key framework that the sports management world has. And, because NASL champions to be a promoter of eSports they should definitely take this into consideration. One of the 5 keys aspects to developing a sports league is having transcendent players and having the best of the world playing. The reason people watch the NFL and the league dominates the market, and not the United Football League or others, is because the NFL has the best talent. The same goes for why soccer leagues in Europe dominate over the MLS. The same should apply for any eSports venture. If there is an opportunity to get the best talent, then you should venture out and get it. Though people want to watch players who are better than them--and by all means, any player who eventually plays in the NASL will be better than whoever is watching them play--they also want to see the best out there. This does not necessarily mean that the entire field should be Korean. Other factors in developing a sports league need to be taken into account such as geography, and thus certainly bias needs to be given to the foreigners. However, limiting Korean participation so much is neither a good idea for the fans nor for the enterprise. I doubt there is anyone who would say that if the opportunity exists for the top (MVP, MC, MKP, Nestea, etc.) and most "transcendent" (ie Boxer, Nada, July, etc.) 16 Koreans to come and play in an American league, that this opportunity should not be taken. It gives the league more relevance and more legitimacy in the long run. Of course, it doesn't have to the case for this season, but the earlier the better. There are many ways in which if the competition seems unfair against the foreigners that it could be alleviated. What immediately comes to mind is a set up that resembles the World Baseball Classic or even WCG. Unless a champions league for SC2 is a realizable possibility in the near future--one in which the top 4 from NASL get to play against the top 4 in the GSL and the top 4 in the IEM (or something like that)--then limiting one leagues playing field just takes away from its possible competitive nature. In conclusion, the NASL should really consider allowing the best of the best comprising a much bigger portion of the field if it is serious about growing not only itself but eSports as a whole in the near future barring some contract of a superleague with the GSL. There are countless examples of sports leagues that limit the amount of foreign players allowed per team, for the simple reason that they have an interest in developing local talent. There's no doubt that the best players in the world are Korean, but this league to me seems more about developing the sport outside of Korea, in which case, only bringing in a few Koreans as opposed to say a third of the field makes more sense. With a consistent league to practice for, and more games/competition, foreign players may have a chance at closing the gap between foreign and Korean players, which isn't as big as people make it out to be. Jinro has success in GSL and loses games to NA/EU players in team leagues. Idra had some decent success in GSL and loses games to foreign players as well. IEM was a different story, but even then Squirtle didn't exactly roll over Socke and Sjow in that epic tie breaker. This league should be used to try and showcase and improve foreign talent. I can't think of any successful professional sports leagues that limit foreign talent. Those with little foreign participation exist because the best players are not foreign. Exactly. The NBA/NHL have tons of foreign players. Well, "tons" in the case of both these leagues represents a very small percent of the players in the league. over 50% of the players in the NHL are Canadian, and over 20% are American. There's no threat to their sports livelihood. The NBA being similar obviously favoring American players. Basically my point comes from European examples of soccer, and more well known for me, water polo. I know the latter isn't a very well known sport for most, but their leagues have limits on foreign players, for the simple reason that to develop their own players, they allow the best foreign players to play, but put a limit on how many. That was my point. Having a few Korean players in the league would be a good thing for NA/EU players, getting a chance to play against top talent. Having a league with half Koreans, for a foreign community wouldn't help at all to improve the talent pool as not enough top NA/EU players will be exposed to games vs. them.
I agree. Plenty of football leagues limit foreign talent. Many impose a limit of how many players in the team without the countrys passport can play in a match, many foreign players actually aply for citizenship so their team can field more of them. That's suposed to protect the country's junior player base and national team, but it's hard to notice with europeans.
So yes, there are limitations. But you won't see a tournament exclude players from a single country. And even then, you won't see a tournament not allowing a single foreign, unless it's local. But this isn't a North American league, they are focusing a lot on Europe as well, I can't understand anyone saying it isn't suposed to be a Global.
I could understand limiting the number of koreans to a reasonable amount, it's not too diferent from what happens in champion's league, limiting how many teams from each country and always forcing teams from smaller leagues into it. But not allowing a nation to participate at all just doesn't seem fair at all, not to mention completelly unapealling from my point of view. Didn't we love seeing world vs korea before?
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I've thought from the beginning that the NASL's prize pool was too large. It should accept it's role as a minor tournament to the GSL, and pay as such. AAA baseball players don't make as much as MLB players obviously. If you could make more in the minor leagues, who would want to play in the majors. As it stands, I don't think we should discriminate at all against koreans. I just think that it was silly to have had such a huge prize pool to begin with and not have foreseen this.
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I hate the argument that Korean players show no emotion or character which makes them less exciting than foreign players. SlayersCella has a great personality, so does many others like in the GSTL many of the players were bm'ing each other in game and out in public (in good fun).
I don't want NASL to be a MLG. No. That is just stupid. I believe it should be international. 1/3 Asian, 1/3 American (North and South), 1/3 European.
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It's virtually guaranteed that most, if not all the Startale players who applied will get invited because they're the only Koreans who have applied before the deadline.
According to the NASL timing, players will be notified of their application status (accepted/rejected) in two days. All this "invite" talk seems merely hypothetical at this point.
edit: then again, there's always the possibility that the NASL guys are holding some application videos back on purpose to add a bit more of a surprise oomph to the player announcements? They never said the 93+ applications we've seen were the whole picture...
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To be fair, pokebunny is 15 years old, I'm not sure what the demographic is for spectators but I'm sure he is in the minority not just for this website but starcraft as a whole.
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On March 16 2011 11:05 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 11:01 motbob wrote:On March 16 2011 10:57 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:53 motbob wrote:On March 16 2011 10:47 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:36 motbob wrote:
All this talk about race and xenophobia reminds me of when people bring up the subject of antisemitism whenever Israel's policies are criticized. Stop it. There is a real element of both. How else do you explain people describing Korean players as boring, homogeneous, and having and unfair advantage due to 'lack of real-life commitments'? How do you explain people who prefer watching 'white' players over Koreans despite the fact a player's ethnicity has no direct relationship with his play-style? The truth of the matter is that people aren't complaining about EU players being allowed in the NASL at all. If the consensus is that EU players are better than NA players, why aren't people levying the same complaint about them? That fact alone betrays their implicit admission of prejudice against Korean players. If this sentiment is the face of Western E-Sports, I want no part of it and wish it to fail. Does overwhelming bias in favor of players like Idra and Jinro when they play in GSL imply racism? People naturally get more excited about players that speak their language and interact with their community. It has nothing to do with racism. The whole reason that Idra and Jinro had just huge viewer numbers is because they the only foreigners playing among the best competition in the world. Under your logic, MLG would be assumed to be 100 times more popular because it's ALL foreigners. That is obviously not the case. Are you someone who has difficulty looking at things in context? Thank you for mentioning MLG. The fact that the tournament is wildly popular on this website (the longest LR thread on TL is for MLG), despite the level of play being less than that of GSL, supports my point that the ideal composition of a tournament's players isn't all about player skill. Also: given your lack of reading comprehension and enormous leaps of logic in your recent posts, I would recommend that you stop being so condescending. MLG had three weekends worth of competition, averaging 150-200 pages per thread per tournament. EVERY GSL match day has threads reaching 80-120 pages. Which event do you think has higher total viewership? And all of that DESPITE the time-zone issue.
Also, wasn't motbob the same guy who was saying TL wasn't representative of gamers as a whole? why use a TL thread statistic then?
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On March 16 2011 11:07 Rokusha wrote:
I hate the argument that Korean players show no emotion or character which makes them less exciting than foreign players. SlayersCella has a great personality, so does many others like in the GSTL many of the players were bm'ing each other in game and out in public (in good fun).
I don't want NASL to be a MLG. No. That is just stupid. I believe it should be international. 1/3 Asian, 1/3 American (North and South), 1/3 European.
mlg actually has no restrictions so a korean can actually come and play if they want.
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this discussion is getting out of hand... Best thing to do is to make some sort of debate with 2 well known speakers defending both sides, with good arguments (for example - Day9 and artosis, or whoever wants to speak and is a part of the starcraft community)
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EPT
