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The real question here is, whats the point of one person's response? It's anecdotal, and doesn't really prove anything. The guy is also a GSL watcher already - he knows whats going on in sc2.
What I'm talking about are people who've never played it before, those are the ones we gotta rope in.
it makes the whole casual viewer won't watch korean argument invalid. I have more evidence than you do that it's the opposite
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On March 16 2011 10:18 chonkyfire wrote:
the problem with all of you saying that this tournament doesn't need the best players in the world is you don't seem to realize that there's 400k at stake over 3 seasons.
400k, what professional gamer isn't drooling over that?
... so? It doesn't matter if some Koreans want to be in the NASL because it has a large prize pool. What matters is whether it will actually help accomplish the NASL's goal of making eSports palatable to more people outside of Korea.
On March 16 2011 10:30 Discount_Glowstix wrote:
WWE is very popular because redneck are retarded, and they like the unrealistic drama that is more exciting than their lives @subversion
You could replace "WWE" with "fiction" and your statement would have just as much validity. WWE doesn't sell sports; they sell fiction. Which is fine; that's the product that they're making and selling.
On March 16 2011 10:38 Looky wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:36 Ghost-z wrote:On March 16 2011 10:16 XsebT wrote:On March 16 2011 10:08 Ghost-z wrote:
NASL is a privately run INVITATIONAL league. They will invite whoever the fuck they want be it Korean, American or South African. I'm gonna make an sc2 invitational tournament. At stake: everything I have, seriously. Streamed two hours every day with an extreme amount of commercials. Or skip the commercials if you buy the premium stream! Invites: Myself, my cat and that old lady from across the street. Get fucking hyped. Perfect straw man argument you've made! But that's fine, it's your show so you make the rules. However I will not be watching your show. I will be watching the NASL. thats what the nasl is
No, it's not. You created a strawman: a parody of the actual argument that is designed to be weaker than that argument, in a desperate attempt to show that the original argument is weak. It doesn't actually show that, because you're arguing against something else.
The fact that you think excluding Koreans from the NASL is equivalent to inviting yourself, your cat, and an old lady shows about how much you respect non-Korean SC2 players.
On March 16 2011 10:43 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:41 Peas wrote:On March 16 2011 10:24 Zeri wrote:On March 16 2011 10:14 Peas wrote:On March 16 2011 10:02 StUfF wrote:On March 16 2011 09:55 Peas wrote:
The NASL is the first major step towards creating the infrastructure we need. If 20+ korean's come here and dominate the tournament, it will DETER western based investors and it will suffocate our attempt to build a culture as strong as theirs I don't understand the this viewpoint at all. Do people not enjoy Tennis even when they aren't Swedish? (during Federer domination period) Isn't the EPL fantasically successful even when more than 50% of the players aren't British. Are so many Americans so egotistical that they can only "enjoy" watching other Americans play - and not appreciate the game for what it is. Terrible terrible, irrelevant, terrible examples. Its not about enjoying the game, its about having a culture that supports you such that yuo can dedicate your life to getting better. DO YOU NOT FCUKING UNDERSTAND THIS? btw Federer is not swedish Yea we need a culture that supports esports. You have failed address what I responded to your garbage post with earlier. The only way to foster that culture is to bring as many koreans as possible over and pit them against top Western pros. Yea koreans might kick the shit out of the westerners, but if a culture of them playing with and against eachother is established, then the skill divide will eventually go away. You are a complete idiot if you think that we can attain an esports culture without allowing koreans in. (Or as you put it 'that allowing koreans in will DETER western esports growth' I responded, you just arent competant enough to understand my points. I will repeat, bringing over as many koreans as possible will not foster a korean-like sc2 culture unless you actually had hundreds of these players actually move here permanently. Simply having them take all the top places (and thus all the money) in western tournaments isnt motivating for western players PRECISELY because western players arent yet on the same level. A loss is motivating when you could have won. Its demoralizing when you had no chance to begin with. Oh, so we should make it easier to make NA players feel better? Come on, if you can't handle it it has nothing to do with the competition. If you quit because you got your ass whupped you're not going to become a top progamer anywhere. On top of that, why do you pros have to be NA/EU? Nothing wrong with having Koreans in there.
This "tough love" attitude is nonsense. Encouragement is good. Negative reinforcement is not the only way to help someone; positive reinforcement works too.
Building confidence is good. It's when it degenerates into building false confidence that you run into a problem.
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On March 16 2011 10:41 Peas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:24 Zeri wrote:On March 16 2011 10:14 Peas wrote:On March 16 2011 10:02 StUfF wrote:On March 16 2011 09:55 Peas wrote:
The NASL is the first major step towards creating the infrastructure we need. If 20+ korean's come here and dominate the tournament, it will DETER western based investors and it will suffocate our attempt to build a culture as strong as theirs I don't understand the this viewpoint at all. Do people not enjoy Tennis even when they aren't Swedish? (during Federer domination period) Isn't the EPL fantasically successful even when more than 50% of the players aren't British. Are so many Americans so egotistical that they can only "enjoy" watching other Americans play - and not appreciate the game for what it is. Terrible terrible, irrelevant, terrible examples. Its not about enjoying the game, its about having a culture that supports you such that yuo can dedicate your life to getting better. DO YOU NOT FCUKING UNDERSTAND THIS? btw Federer is not swedish Yea we need a culture that supports esports. You have failed address what I responded to your garbage post with earlier. The only way to foster that culture is to bring as many koreans as possible over and pit them against top Western pros. Yea koreans might kick the shit out of the westerners, but if a culture of them playing with and against eachother is established, then the skill divide will eventually go away. You are a complete idiot if you think that we can attain an esports culture without allowing koreans in. (Or as you put it 'that allowing koreans in will DETER western esports growth' I responded, you just arent competant enough to understand my points. I will repeat, bringing over as many koreans as possible will not foster a korean-like sc2 culture unless you actually had hundreds of these players move here permanently. Simply having them take all the top places (and thus all the money) in western tournaments isnt motivating for western players PRECISELY because western players arent yet on the same level. A loss is motivating when you could have won. Its demoralizing when you had no chance to begin with.
so your saying having them will not motivate NA players to train even harder? I bet if a player like MVP played in it, more people would want to get better and try to beat him. yes at first they probbaly will lose, but if he continues to play here and people will be more motivated to get as good as him and beat him. great players will make better players. Basketball players look up to MJ and will strive to be as a good as him. Its human nature to better ourselves by sticking with someone who is a better than who we are.
even QXC in the winter open said after losing to huk (who probably mutated into a korean himself) only wanted to get better after losing and knows what he needs to do.
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On March 16 2011 10:41 Peas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:24 Zeri wrote:On March 16 2011 10:14 Peas wrote:On March 16 2011 10:02 StUfF wrote:On March 16 2011 09:55 Peas wrote:
The NASL is the first major step towards creating the infrastructure we need. If 20+ korean's come here and dominate the tournament, it will DETER western based investors and it will suffocate our attempt to build a culture as strong as theirs I don't understand the this viewpoint at all. Do people not enjoy Tennis even when they aren't Swedish? (during Federer domination period) Isn't the EPL fantasically successful even when more than 50% of the players aren't British. Are so many Americans so egotistical that they can only "enjoy" watching other Americans play - and not appreciate the game for what it is. Terrible terrible, irrelevant, terrible examples. Its not about enjoying the game, its about having a culture that supports you such that yuo can dedicate your life to getting better. DO YOU NOT FCUKING UNDERSTAND THIS? btw Federer is not swedish Yea we need a culture that supports esports. You have failed address what I responded to your garbage post with earlier. The only way to foster that culture is to bring as many koreans as possible over and pit them against top Western pros. Yea koreans might kick the shit out of the westerners, but if a culture of them playing with and against eachother is established, then the skill divide will eventually go away. You are a complete idiot if you think that we can attain an esports culture without allowing koreans in. (Or as you put it 'that allowing koreans in will DETER western esports growth' I responded, you just arent competant enough to understand my points. I will repeat, bringing over as many koreans as possible will not foster a korean-like sc2 culture unless you actually had hundreds of these players move here permanently. Simply having them take all the top places (and thus all the money) in western tournaments isnt motivating for western players PRECISELY because western players arent yet on the same level. A loss is motivating when you could have won. Its demoralizing when you had no chance to begin with.
Which is probably why you have miserably failed at everything you ever tried. That is the worst attitude ever, man. Getting the shit kicked out of you hurts, but if you love the game and want to be the best, its the most motivating thing ever.
And I didn't say it would instantly close the gap between westerners and koreans I said it would establish an environment of westerners and koreans competing which, in time, would lead to the korean esports scene spilling over to the west. which is what we all want.
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On March 16 2011 10:45 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 09:55 Peas wrote:
The NASL is the first major step towards creating the infrastructure we need. If 20+ korean's come here and dominate the tournament, it will DETER western based investors and it will suffocate our attempt to build a culture as strong as theirs And yes, clearly we want to move to a model where teams can pay salaries. This is based on infrastructure and corporate sponsorship. And my point that you keep avoiding is that all of your points seem to be based on the assumption that 'koreans winning will deter investment in sc2'. This assumption implies that people do not want to watch koreans play and win sc2 in north america. This claim is refuted by the presence of this thread and the silly poll at the beginning of it. You keep arguing it however. This suggests YOU do not want to watch koreans play, which, coupled with the content of your other posts suggests racism.
This poll on this forum means NOTHING. I'll repeat..NOTHING. 90% of the people who voted did so without an appropriate understanding of the situation and/or without thinking it through.
What is your fascination with meaningless data?
Nothing I have said suggests racisim in the slightest. Nothing. Feel free to try and justify that though.
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On March 16 2011 10:47 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:45 caradoc wrote:On March 16 2011 09:55 Peas wrote:
The NASL is the first major step towards creating the infrastructure we need. If 20+ korean's come here and dominate the tournament, it will DETER western based investors and it will suffocate our attempt to build a culture as strong as theirs And yes, clearly we want to move to a model where teams can pay salaries. This is based on infrastructure and corporate sponsorship. And my point that you keep avoiding is that all of your points seem to be based on the assumption that 'koreans winning will deter investment in sc2'. This assumption implies that people do not want to watch koreans play and win sc2 in north america. This claim is refuted by the presence of this thread and the silly poll at the beginning of it. You keep arguing it however. This suggests YOU do not want to watch koreans play, which, coupled with the content of your other posts suggests racism. Regarding the poll: you are confusing what is most appealing to Team Liquid with what is most appealing for a broader audience. And regarding everything else: you are confusing points of view that do not agree with yours with racism. [/spoiler]
Most foreigners following esports go to TL, if you're referring to casual viewers, then I've said it before, but most people aren't going to be drawn to SC2 because the players speak English/there's "drama".
+ Show Spoiler +On March 16 2011 10:49 Ruseter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:20 Zzoram wrote:On March 16 2011 10:18 allecto wrote:On March 16 2011 09:57 Ruseter wrote:On March 16 2011 09:36 allecto wrote:On March 16 2011 06:42 motbob wrote:
Frankly, the best scene right now is clearly the Korean scene. The evidence for this is diverse and extremely convincing. In IEM, players who can generously be considered high Code A material wiped the floor with some of the best players the rest of the world had to offer. In the FXOpen, an international tournament, relative unknowns in the Korean scene oGsHero and TheStC placed first and second. Huk was one of the best players, if not the best player, in North America during the time between the launch of the game and his trip to Korea. He recently qualified for Code S after some struggle, implying that his dominance over the North American scene did not translate to dominance over the Korean scene.
The list goes on. Koreans are simply better right now.
Another thing we need to discuss before proceeding is that the NASL format is very, very favorable to players already in the league. The top 42 34 out of 50 players in an NASL season advance to the next season. So, we can probably assume that players such as MC, MVP, etc would never leave the league.
Given the above, I would be surprised if the NASL invites more than about 5 Koreans, and I would be surprised and disappointed if they were to invite the very top Koreans. I'll explain why.
The TSL is the best international tournament in terms of quality of play. The organizers invited the very best players because they wanted to see the very best play. But the NASL is not the TSL. It has very different goals from the TSL.
Forget the NASL intro video. "The best players the world has ever seen?" If that were their goal, they'd invite 30 Koreans. The NASL's goal is entertainment, and they have a very specific mindset about how to achieve that goal. We've seen that a big part of the league is about drama and storylines.
Inviting the top Koreans will make the NASL worse, for one main reason: the likes of MVP would trash the top foreigners in North America (barring maybe Idra) with no problems at all. It would not be close. If ST.Ace can smash some of the top Europeans without dropping a set, imagine what the very best players in Korea could do. That prospect does not appeal to me as a spectator, and I don't think it's an outcome that the NASL organizers want.
Inviting Koreans in general is problematic because it's difficult to create storylines and drama around them, but that can be mitigated by only inviting Koreans that are unique in some way, other than just being really good. Names that pop up in my head are July, GuineaPig (for his aggression both on the battlefield and in in-game chat), Squirtle, Moon (his play at IEM was like nothing I'd seen before).
So. Invite a few Koreans, ones that have a creative style, or better yet ones that have ties to the foreigner community already (like Cella!)
I can watch GSL if I want to see the best play in the world. I want NASL to have the highest entertainment value possible, and that's why I don't support inviting many Koreans or the best Koreans. I feel like there is a fundamental flaw in this sort of argument. I don't mean to imply these views necessarily as being infallible, but there is a key framework that the sports management world has. And, because NASL champions to be a promoter of eSports they should definitely take this into consideration. One of the 5 keys aspects to developing a sports league is having transcendent players and having the best of the world playing. The reason people watch the NFL and the league dominates the market, and not the United Football League or others, is because the NFL has the best talent. The same goes for why soccer leagues in Europe dominate over the MLS. The same should apply for any eSports venture. If there is an opportunity to get the best talent, then you should venture out and get it. Though people want to watch players who are better than them--and by all means, any player who eventually plays in the NASL will be better than whoever is watching them play--they also want to see the best out there. This does not necessarily mean that the entire field should be Korean. Other factors in developing a sports league need to be taken into account such as geography, and thus certainly bias needs to be given to the foreigners. However, limiting Korean participation so much is neither a good idea for the fans nor for the enterprise. I doubt there is anyone who would say that if the opportunity exists for the top (MVP, MC, MKP, Nestea, etc.) and most "transcendent" (ie Boxer, Nada, July, etc.) 16 Koreans to come and play in an American league, that this opportunity should not be taken. It gives the league more relevance and more legitimacy in the long run. Of course, it doesn't have to the case for this season, but the earlier the better. There are many ways in which if the competition seems unfair against the foreigners that it could be alleviated. What immediately comes to mind is a set up that resembles the World Baseball Classic or even WCG. Unless a champions league for SC2 is a realizable possibility in the near future--one in which the top 4 from NASL get to play against the top 4 in the GSL and the top 4 in the IEM (or something like that)--then limiting one leagues playing field just takes away from its possible competitive nature. In conclusion, the NASL should really consider allowing the best of the best comprising a much bigger portion of the field if it is serious about growing not only itself but eSports as a whole in the near future barring some contract of a superleague with the GSL. There are countless examples of sports leagues that limit the amount of foreign players allowed per team, for the simple reason that they have an interest in developing local talent. There's no doubt that the best players in the world are Korean, but this league to me seems more about developing the sport outside of Korea, in which case, only bringing in a few Koreans as opposed to say a third of the field makes more sense. With a consistent league to practice for, and more games/competition, foreign players may have a chance at closing the gap between foreign and Korean players, which isn't as big as people make it out to be. Jinro has success in GSL and loses games to NA/EU players in team leagues. Idra had some decent success in GSL and loses games to foreign players as well. IEM was a different story, but even then Squirtle didn't exactly roll over Socke and Sjow in that epic tie breaker. This league should be used to try and showcase and improve foreign talent. I can't think of any successful professional sports leagues that limit foreign talent. Those with little foreign participation exist because the best players are not foreign. Exactly. The NBA/NHL have tons of foreign players. Well, "tons" in the case of both these leagues represents a very small percent of the players in the league. over 50% of the players in the NHL are Canadian, and over 20% are American. There's no threat to their sports livelihood. The NBA being similar obviously favoring American players. Basically my point comes from European examples of soccer, and more well known for me, water polo. I know the latter isn't a very well known sport for most, but their leagues have limits on foreign players, for the simple reason that to develop their own players, they allow the best foreign players to play, but put a limit on how many. That was my point. Having a few Korean players in the league would be a good thing for NA/EU players, getting a chance to play against top talent. Having a league with half Koreans, for a foreign community wouldn't help at all to improve the talent pool as not enough top NA/EU players will be exposed to games vs. them.
Most players in the MLB are foreign, people don't care.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On March 16 2011 10:47 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:36 motbob wrote:
All this talk about race and xenophobia reminds me of when people bring up the subject of antisemitism whenever Israel's policies are criticized. Stop it. There is a real element of both. How else do you explain people describing Korean players as boring, homogeneous, and having and unfair advantage due to 'lack of real-life commitments'? How do you explain people who prefer watching 'white' players over Koreans despite the fact a player's ethnicity has no direct relationship with his play-style? The truth of the matter is that people aren't complaining about EU players being allowed in the NASL at all. If the consensus is that EU players are better than NA players, why aren't people levying the same complaint about them? That fact alone betrays their implicit admission of prejudice against Korean players. If this sentiment is the face of Western E-Sports, I want no part of it and wish it to fail.
Does overwhelming bias in favor of players like Idra and Jinro when they play in GSL imply racism? People naturally get more excited about players that speak their language and interact with their community. It has nothing to do with racism.
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On March 16 2011 10:52 Peas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:45 caradoc wrote:On March 16 2011 09:55 Peas wrote:
The NASL is the first major step towards creating the infrastructure we need. If 20+ korean's come here and dominate the tournament, it will DETER western based investors and it will suffocate our attempt to build a culture as strong as theirs And yes, clearly we want to move to a model where teams can pay salaries. This is based on infrastructure and corporate sponsorship. And my point that you keep avoiding is that all of your points seem to be based on the assumption that 'koreans winning will deter investment in sc2'. This assumption implies that people do not want to watch koreans play and win sc2 in north america. This claim is refuted by the presence of this thread and the silly poll at the beginning of it. You keep arguing it however. This suggests YOU do not want to watch koreans play, which, coupled with the content of your other posts suggests racism. This poll on this forum means NOTHING. I'll repeat..NOTHING. 90% of the people who voted did so without an appropriate understanding of the situation and/or without thinking it through. What is your fascination with meaningless data? Nothing I have said suggest racisim in the slightest. Nothing. Feel free to try and justify that though.
By that definition any Democratic measures used is meaningless.
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On March 16 2011 10:47 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:45 caradoc wrote:On March 16 2011 09:55 Peas wrote:
The NASL is the first major step towards creating the infrastructure we need. If 20+ korean's come here and dominate the tournament, it will DETER western based investors and it will suffocate our attempt to build a culture as strong as theirs And yes, clearly we want to move to a model where teams can pay salaries. This is based on infrastructure and corporate sponsorship. And my point that you keep avoiding is that all of your points seem to be based on the assumption that 'koreans winning will deter investment in sc2'. This assumption implies that people do not want to watch koreans play and win sc2 in north america. This claim is refuted by the presence of this thread and the silly poll at the beginning of it. You keep arguing it however. This suggests YOU do not want to watch koreans play, which, coupled with the content of your other posts suggests racism. Regarding the poll: you are confusing what is most appealing to Team Liquid with what is most appealing for a broader audience. And regarding everything else: you are confusing points of view that do not agree with yours with racism.
Who are you to decide what is appealing to the broader audience?
Is it common knowledge that the 'broader audience' demands that their professional SC2 players be white?
What is your point exactly?
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I think NASL will now feel the downside of making the tournament invitation heavy.
There is simply no way of making everyone happy.
Some will inevitably feel that they were arbituarily left out in the cold.
But in the end, it is their tournament and their decision, so we shall see how this turns out.
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I think the bigger picture here is that the same people saying that NASL is trying to appeal to the US culture won't be interested if Koreans dominate. I will say those same people that will lose interest if Koreans dominate will also lose interest if Russians/Ukranians/Swedes/Germans dominate. So you should limit them as well.
So make it just a US thing or a world thing. You can't play this middle ground and limit the best players. It's just beyond ridiculous.
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Ban Koreans.
Just cause if you wanna watch Koreans you can watch GSL.
I`d better enjoy a total foreigner competition with the top foreinger personalities than watching foreinger getting smashed by code-a n00bs.
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On March 16 2011 10:39 motbob wrote:
Of course it isn't. If the issue were that cut and dry no one would be arguing about it. Wanting to restrict the number of Koreans has nothing to do with race. It has to do with skill level, the pro/semipro divide, etc
so let me get this straight
the most skilled players in the world shouldn't be in a tournament with 400k in prizes over three seasons? If it's just amateur hour, why have such a massive prize pool. This tournament is a joke if there aren't at least 10 koreans
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no need to be afraid top koreans.. I promise you 80% of them can't advance because of bad lag.
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On March 16 2011 10:45 Subversion wrote:
Hey look, if Koreans put up application videos in English then all the power to them. They clearly want to be involved, and if they deserve a spot, I say invite them.
But I don't think we should just be throwing invitations at every gosu Korean there is. Like I've said before, a few Koreans is fantastic and makes things interesting. 35 Koreans does not.
This whole topic all started in the "NASL Vod Thread" because Pokebunny didn't think Startale qualify even when they post the video and i quote:
?? You saw July's video, they read these off a piece of paper probably prepared by a manager. Their videos are more of a turn-off to me than anything, as it shows they can't even communicate properly during the event. They don't want to be a part of the scene, they just want to win the cash with as little effort given as possible. Bashing NrG's manager who has grown the team for six years for a valid comment is also particularly classy.
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On March 16 2011 10:54 Nayl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:52 Peas wrote:On March 16 2011 10:45 caradoc wrote:On March 16 2011 09:55 Peas wrote:
The NASL is the first major step towards creating the infrastructure we need. If 20+ korean's come here and dominate the tournament, it will DETER western based investors and it will suffocate our attempt to build a culture as strong as theirs And yes, clearly we want to move to a model where teams can pay salaries. This is based on infrastructure and corporate sponsorship. And my point that you keep avoiding is that all of your points seem to be based on the assumption that 'koreans winning will deter investment in sc2'. This assumption implies that people do not want to watch koreans play and win sc2 in north america. This claim is refuted by the presence of this thread and the silly poll at the beginning of it. You keep arguing it however. This suggests YOU do not want to watch koreans play, which, coupled with the content of your other posts suggests racism. This poll on this forum means NOTHING. I'll repeat..NOTHING. 90% of the people who voted did so without an appropriate understanding of the situation and/or without thinking it through. What is your fascination with meaningless data? Nothing I have said suggest racisim in the slightest. Nothing. Feel free to try and justify that though. By that definition any Democratic measures used is meaningless.
If by measures you mean polls or some such effort to gether data regarding opinion...then yes, many of them are. It depends on what is being asked, to whom, and how it is asked.
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On March 16 2011 10:54 Consolidate wrote:
Who are you to decide what is appealing to the broader audience?
Is it common knowledge that the 'broader audience' demands that their professional SC2 players be white?
What is your point exactly?
You are blatantly refusing to see it. He is saying that the poll doesn't matter because TL doesn't have a good track record of recognizing that there is a gaming community outside of itself (wait no that's the wrong way around, but you know what I mean), which is absolutely true. It's not even debatable.
Of course, that raises the question: why did he put one in in the first place? I don't know.
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On March 16 2011 10:53 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:47 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:36 motbob wrote:
All this talk about race and xenophobia reminds me of when people bring up the subject of antisemitism whenever Israel's policies are criticized. Stop it. There is a real element of both. How else do you explain people describing Korean players as boring, homogeneous, and having and unfair advantage due to 'lack of real-life commitments'? How do you explain people who prefer watching 'white' players over Koreans despite the fact a player's ethnicity has no direct relationship with his play-style? The truth of the matter is that people aren't complaining about EU players being allowed in the NASL at all. If the consensus is that EU players are better than NA players, why aren't people levying the same complaint about them? That fact alone betrays their implicit admission of prejudice against Korean players. If this sentiment is the face of Western E-Sports, I want no part of it and wish it to fail. Does overwhelming bias in favor of players like Idra and Jinro when they play in GSL imply racism? People naturally get more excited about players that speak their language and interact with their community. It has nothing to do with racism.
I think it's partially language, yes, but it's also because TL builds up a huge fucking story about it. There's always a ton of player interviews during TL weeklys, there's foreigner specials, Tastosis show overwhelming bias and mention the fact that so-and-so is playing 1000x+make manlove comments.
Foreigners are special because they're rare, they're rare because they can't play as well, and therefore they make a good underdog story.
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On March 16 2011 10:53 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:47 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:36 motbob wrote:
All this talk about race and xenophobia reminds me of when people bring up the subject of antisemitism whenever Israel's policies are criticized. Stop it. There is a real element of both. How else do you explain people describing Korean players as boring, homogeneous, and having and unfair advantage due to 'lack of real-life commitments'? How do you explain people who prefer watching 'white' players over Koreans despite the fact a player's ethnicity has no direct relationship with his play-style? The truth of the matter is that people aren't complaining about EU players being allowed in the NASL at all. If the consensus is that EU players are better than NA players, why aren't people levying the same complaint about them? That fact alone betrays their implicit admission of prejudice against Korean players. If this sentiment is the face of Western E-Sports, I want no part of it and wish it to fail. Does overwhelming bias in favor of players like Idra and Jinro when they play in GSL imply racism? People naturally get more excited about players that speak their language and interact with their community. It has nothing to do with racism.
The whole reason that Idra and Jinro had just huge viewer numbers is because they the only foreigners playing among the best competition in the world.
Under your logic, MLG would be assumed to be 100 times more popular because it's ALL foreigners. That is obviously not the case.
Are you someone who has difficulty looking at things in context?
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On March 16 2011 10:54 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:47 motbob wrote:On March 16 2011 10:45 caradoc wrote:On March 16 2011 09:55 Peas wrote:
The NASL is the first major step towards creating the infrastructure we need. If 20+ korean's come here and dominate the tournament, it will DETER western based investors and it will suffocate our attempt to build a culture as strong as theirs And yes, clearly we want to move to a model where teams can pay salaries. This is based on infrastructure and corporate sponsorship. And my point that you keep avoiding is that all of your points seem to be based on the assumption that 'koreans winning will deter investment in sc2'. This assumption implies that people do not want to watch koreans play and win sc2 in north america. This claim is refuted by the presence of this thread and the silly poll at the beginning of it. You keep arguing it however. This suggests YOU do not want to watch koreans play, which, coupled with the content of your other posts suggests racism. Regarding the poll: you are confusing what is most appealing to Team Liquid with what is most appealing for a broader audience. And regarding everything else: you are confusing points of view that do not agree with yours with racism. Who are you to decide what is appealing to the broader audience? Is it common knowledge that the 'broader audience' demands that their professional SC2 players be white? What is your point exactly?
I didn't make an argument one way or the other. Read the posts I was quoting and you'll understand why I posted what I did. Someone was trying to use the poll to shut down argument and I was pointing out that that was dumb.
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EPT
