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On March 16 2011 10:41 Peas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:24 Zeri wrote:On March 16 2011 10:14 Peas wrote:On March 16 2011 10:02 StUfF wrote:On March 16 2011 09:55 Peas wrote:
The NASL is the first major step towards creating the infrastructure we need. If 20+ korean's come here and dominate the tournament, it will DETER western based investors and it will suffocate our attempt to build a culture as strong as theirs I don't understand the this viewpoint at all. Do people not enjoy Tennis even when they aren't Swedish? (during Federer domination period) Isn't the EPL fantasically successful even when more than 50% of the players aren't British. Are so many Americans so egotistical that they can only "enjoy" watching other Americans play - and not appreciate the game for what it is. Terrible terrible, irrelevant, terrible examples. Its not about enjoying the game, its about having a culture that supports you such that yuo can dedicate your life to getting better. DO YOU NOT FCUKING UNDERSTAND THIS? btw Federer is not swedish Yea we need a culture that supports esports. You have failed address what I responded to your garbage post with earlier. The only way to foster that culture is to bring as many koreans as possible over and pit them against top Western pros. Yea koreans might kick the shit out of the westerners, but if a culture of them playing with and against eachother is established, then the skill divide will eventually go away. You are a complete idiot if you think that we can attain an esports culture without allowing koreans in. (Or as you put it 'that allowing koreans in will DETER western esports growth' I responded, you just arent competant enough to understand my points. I will repeat, bringing over as many koreans as possible will not foster a korean-like sc2 culture unless you actually had hundreds of these players actually move here permanently. Simply having them take all the top places (and thus all the money) in western tournaments isnt motivating for western players PRECISELY because western players arent yet on the same level. A loss is motivating when you could have won. Its demoralizing when you had no chance to begin with.
Oh, so we should make it easier to make NA players feel better? Come on, if you can't handle it it has nothing to do with the competition. If you quit because you got your ass whupped you're not going to become a top progamer anywhere. On top of that, why do you pros have to be NA/EU? Nothing wrong with having Koreans in there.
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Honestly if they want to protect the western scene they should just host it offline, problem solved.
Banning a nationality is silly. Just make it so that if they want to compete they have to come to North America to play in the North American League. It's the same fucking thing everywhere else! Play in GSL, go to Korea. Play in NFL, go to America. Play in the Premier League, go to England.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On March 16 2011 10:42 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:37 Peas wrote:
Ask yourself who the top 50 players in the world are They're not all koreans. Not even half of them are.
Name 32 foreigners better than ST.Ace. You'll have a hard time to name even five.
Now name 32 Koreans better than ST.Ace. All you have to do is list the Code S roster.
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On March 16 2011 10:42 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:37 Peas wrote:
Ask yourself who the top 50 players in the world are They're not all koreans. Not even half of them are.
LOLOL?
still mad about using skewed statistics?
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On March 16 2011 10:39 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:38 chonkyfire wrote:On March 16 2011 10:36 motbob wrote:
All this talk about race and xenophobia reminds me of when people bring up the subject of antisemitism whenever Israel's policies are criticized. Stop it. it's a valid point i guess race or xenophobia is the wrong word, but it's certainly discrimination What if the MLB banned latin american players? Or what if the english premier league banned africans? It's the same exact thing Of course it isn't. If the issue were that cut and dry no one would be arguing about it.
It's sad that race and work ethic are being confused int his thread. It's not like Koreans are genetically better than anyone else at Starcraft. Its that players like blur, pokebunny, and others who believe the Koreans will roll over the 'foreigners' adopt the attitude of 'lets just not have them here'. Punishing individuals for committing and working hard is really sad. As Sean said in one of his Day9 Dailies, people need to stop talking about e-sports and just do it. Commit and practice hard or something rather than talk about unfairness.
By the way, if the NASL limits Koreans, then players such as IdrA, Jinro, Haypro, Ret, Huk, Moonglade, and Artosis should be banned as well seeing as to how they've benefitted from the "Korean culture".
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On March 16 2011 09:55 Peas wrote:
The NASL is the first major step towards creating the infrastructure we need. If 20+ korean's come here and dominate the tournament, it will DETER western based investors and it will suffocate our attempt to build a culture as strong as theirs
And yes, clearly we want to move to a model where teams can pay salaries. This is based on infrastructure and corporate sponsorship.
And my point that you keep avoiding is that all of your points seem to be based on the assumption that 'koreans winning will deter investment in sc2'. This assumption implies that people do not want to watch koreans play and win sc2 in north america. This claim is refuted by the presence of this thread and the silly poll at the beginning of it. You keep arguing it however. This suggests YOU do not want to watch koreans play, which, coupled with the content of your other posts suggests racism.
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Hey look, if Koreans put up application videos in English then all the power to them. They clearly want to be involved, and if they deserve a spot, I say invite them.
But I don't think we should just be throwing invitations at every gosu Korean there is. Like I've said before, a few Koreans is fantastic and makes things interesting. 35 Koreans does not.
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On March 16 2011 10:44 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:42 caradoc wrote:On March 16 2011 10:37 Peas wrote:
Ask yourself who the top 50 players in the world are They're not all koreans. Not even half of them are. Name 32 foreigners better than ST.Ace. You'll have a hard time to name even five. Now name 32 Koreans better than ST.Ace. All you have to do is list the Code S roster.
Why does nationality matter? For a lot of people the primary reason the NASL was awesome was because it was on at a decent hour, not because the progamers there spoke English. If you're blocking Korean players cause they live in Korea/are better, then are you going to block TL players from playing? If you're not, aren't you blocking by racism? And if you're blocking by language, are you going to block White-Ra and non-english speaking EU players from playing?
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On March 16 2011 10:45 Subversion wrote:
Hey look, if Koreans put up application videos in English then all the power to them. They clearly want to be involved, and if they deserve a spot, I say invite them.
But I don't think we should just be throwing invitations at every gosu Korean there is. Like I've said before, a few Koreans is fantastic and makes things interesting. 35 Koreans does not.
Startale did it, yet you're suggesting that we shouldn't let them in.
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On March 16 2011 10:36 motbob wrote:
All this talk about race and xenophobia reminds me of when people bring up the subject of antisemitism whenever Israel's policies are criticized. Stop it.
There is a real element of both.
How else do you explain people describing Korean players as boring, homogeneous, and having and unfair advantage due to 'lack of real-life commitments'?
How do you explain people who prefer watching 'white' players over Koreans despite the fact a player's ethnicity has no direct relationship with his play-style?
The truth of the matter is that people aren't complaining about EU players being allowed in the NASL at all. If the consensus is that EU players are better than NA players, why aren't people levying the same complaint about them?
That fact alone betrays their implicit admission of prejudice against Korean players. If this sentiment is the face of Western E-Sports, I want no part of it and wish it to fail.
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Why does it mean "very few NA/EU players" if there are an unlimited Korean spots? The poll is worded very poorly.
to quote myself earlier
People here assume allowing 'unlimited' amount of Koreans would result in NASL being flooded by Koreans.
The truth is, top Korean will stay in GSL because there are more prestige and money along with it. This is simple economics, if any koreans were to show up to NASL, it's going to be the "lesser" Code S player/Top code A players who has enough sponsorships to be flown to LA.
I feel that they shouldn't even have mentioned that they were considering a "cap" on Korean participation, since they would have relatively smaller pool of Koreans to choose from compared to US players anyway.
Putting a small artificial cap like 5/50 is bad for the league. As is now, there are MUCH more player from West to choose from anyways. ST is the only team so far to submit application of any kind. There is obviously going to be more North Americans participating in this league simply for the geographical reasons. Do you think its easier for Koreans to fly out to LA than it is for foreigners to fly to Korea? Heck, Gom even provides foreigners with place to stay!
Stop spreading lies like "if unlimited Koreans are allowed, the league will just be flooded with Koreans and Western E-sports won't grow".
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On March 16 2011 10:45 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 09:55 Peas wrote:
The NASL is the first major step towards creating the infrastructure we need. If 20+ korean's come here and dominate the tournament, it will DETER western based investors and it will suffocate our attempt to build a culture as strong as theirs And yes, clearly we want to move to a model where teams can pay salaries. This is based on infrastructure and corporate sponsorship. And my point that you keep avoiding is that all of your points seem to be based on the assumption that 'koreans winning will deter investment in sc2'. This assumption implies that people do not want to watch koreans play and win sc2 in north america. This claim is refuted by the presence of this thread and the silly poll at the beginning of it. You keep arguing it however. This suggests YOU do not want to watch koreans play, which, coupled with the content of your other posts suggests racism.
Regarding the poll: you are confusing what is most appealing to Team Liquid with what is most appealing for a broader audience. And regarding everything else: you are confusing points of view that do not agree with yours with racism.
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On March 16 2011 10:43 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:41 Peas wrote:On March 16 2011 10:24 Zeri wrote:On March 16 2011 10:14 Peas wrote:On March 16 2011 10:02 StUfF wrote:On March 16 2011 09:55 Peas wrote:
The NASL is the first major step towards creating the infrastructure we need. If 20+ korean's come here and dominate the tournament, it will DETER western based investors and it will suffocate our attempt to build a culture as strong as theirs I don't understand the this viewpoint at all. Do people not enjoy Tennis even when they aren't Swedish? (during Federer domination period) Isn't the EPL fantasically successful even when more than 50% of the players aren't British. Are so many Americans so egotistical that they can only "enjoy" watching other Americans play - and not appreciate the game for what it is. Terrible terrible, irrelevant, terrible examples. Its not about enjoying the game, its about having a culture that supports you such that yuo can dedicate your life to getting better. DO YOU NOT FCUKING UNDERSTAND THIS? btw Federer is not swedish Yea we need a culture that supports esports. You have failed address what I responded to your garbage post with earlier. The only way to foster that culture is to bring as many koreans as possible over and pit them against top Western pros. Yea koreans might kick the shit out of the westerners, but if a culture of them playing with and against eachother is established, then the skill divide will eventually go away. You are a complete idiot if you think that we can attain an esports culture without allowing koreans in. (Or as you put it 'that allowing koreans in will DETER western esports growth' I responded, you just arent competant enough to understand my points. I will repeat, bringing over as many koreans as possible will not foster a korean-like sc2 culture unless you actually had hundreds of these players actually move here permanently. Simply having them take all the top places (and thus all the money) in western tournaments isnt motivating for western players PRECISELY because western players arent yet on the same level. A loss is motivating when you could have won. Its demoralizing when you had no chance to begin with. Oh, so we should make it easier to make NA players feel better? Come on, if you can't handle it it has nothing to do with the competition. If you quit because you got your ass whupped you're not going to become a top progamer anywhere. On top of that, why do you pros have to be NA/EU? Nothing wrong with having Koreans in there.
I am sick of you missing the point. I dont think a wizard could make you understand the fundimental issues I am trying to raise, so I will leave you to bask in your own ignorance.
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On March 16 2011 10:20 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:18 allecto wrote:On March 16 2011 09:57 Ruseter wrote:On March 16 2011 09:36 allecto wrote:On March 16 2011 06:42 motbob wrote:
Frankly, the best scene right now is clearly the Korean scene. The evidence for this is diverse and extremely convincing. In IEM, players who can generously be considered high Code A material wiped the floor with some of the best players the rest of the world had to offer. In the FXOpen, an international tournament, relative unknowns in the Korean scene oGsHero and TheStC placed first and second. Huk was one of the best players, if not the best player, in North America during the time between the launch of the game and his trip to Korea. He recently qualified for Code S after some struggle, implying that his dominance over the North American scene did not translate to dominance over the Korean scene.
The list goes on. Koreans are simply better right now.
Another thing we need to discuss before proceeding is that the NASL format is very, very favorable to players already in the league. The top 42 34 out of 50 players in an NASL season advance to the next season. So, we can probably assume that players such as MC, MVP, etc would never leave the league.
Given the above, I would be surprised if the NASL invites more than about 5 Koreans, and I would be surprised and disappointed if they were to invite the very top Koreans. I'll explain why.
The TSL is the best international tournament in terms of quality of play. The organizers invited the very best players because they wanted to see the very best play. But the NASL is not the TSL. It has very different goals from the TSL.
Forget the NASL intro video. "The best players the world has ever seen?" If that were their goal, they'd invite 30 Koreans. The NASL's goal is entertainment, and they have a very specific mindset about how to achieve that goal. We've seen that a big part of the league is about drama and storylines.
Inviting the top Koreans will make the NASL worse, for one main reason: the likes of MVP would trash the top foreigners in North America (barring maybe Idra) with no problems at all. It would not be close. If ST.Ace can smash some of the top Europeans without dropping a set, imagine what the very best players in Korea could do. That prospect does not appeal to me as a spectator, and I don't think it's an outcome that the NASL organizers want.
Inviting Koreans in general is problematic because it's difficult to create storylines and drama around them, but that can be mitigated by only inviting Koreans that are unique in some way, other than just being really good. Names that pop up in my head are July, GuineaPig (for his aggression both on the battlefield and in in-game chat), Squirtle, Moon (his play at IEM was like nothing I'd seen before).
So. Invite a few Koreans, ones that have a creative style, or better yet ones that have ties to the foreigner community already (like Cella!)
I can watch GSL if I want to see the best play in the world. I want NASL to have the highest entertainment value possible, and that's why I don't support inviting many Koreans or the best Koreans. I feel like there is a fundamental flaw in this sort of argument. I don't mean to imply these views necessarily as being infallible, but there is a key framework that the sports management world has. And, because NASL champions to be a promoter of eSports they should definitely take this into consideration. One of the 5 keys aspects to developing a sports league is having transcendent players and having the best of the world playing. The reason people watch the NFL and the league dominates the market, and not the United Football League or others, is because the NFL has the best talent. The same goes for why soccer leagues in Europe dominate over the MLS. The same should apply for any eSports venture. If there is an opportunity to get the best talent, then you should venture out and get it. Though people want to watch players who are better than them--and by all means, any player who eventually plays in the NASL will be better than whoever is watching them play--they also want to see the best out there. This does not necessarily mean that the entire field should be Korean. Other factors in developing a sports league need to be taken into account such as geography, and thus certainly bias needs to be given to the foreigners. However, limiting Korean participation so much is neither a good idea for the fans nor for the enterprise. I doubt there is anyone who would say that if the opportunity exists for the top (MVP, MC, MKP, Nestea, etc.) and most "transcendent" (ie Boxer, Nada, July, etc.) 16 Koreans to come and play in an American league, that this opportunity should not be taken. It gives the league more relevance and more legitimacy in the long run. Of course, it doesn't have to the case for this season, but the earlier the better. There are many ways in which if the competition seems unfair against the foreigners that it could be alleviated. What immediately comes to mind is a set up that resembles the World Baseball Classic or even WCG. Unless a champions league for SC2 is a realizable possibility in the near future--one in which the top 4 from NASL get to play against the top 4 in the GSL and the top 4 in the IEM (or something like that)--then limiting one leagues playing field just takes away from its possible competitive nature. In conclusion, the NASL should really consider allowing the best of the best comprising a much bigger portion of the field if it is serious about growing not only itself but eSports as a whole in the near future barring some contract of a superleague with the GSL. There are countless examples of sports leagues that limit the amount of foreign players allowed per team, for the simple reason that they have an interest in developing local talent. There's no doubt that the best players in the world are Korean, but this league to me seems more about developing the sport outside of Korea, in which case, only bringing in a few Koreans as opposed to say a third of the field makes more sense. With a consistent league to practice for, and more games/competition, foreign players may have a chance at closing the gap between foreign and Korean players, which isn't as big as people make it out to be. Jinro has success in GSL and loses games to NA/EU players in team leagues. Idra had some decent success in GSL and loses games to foreign players as well. IEM was a different story, but even then Squirtle didn't exactly roll over Socke and Sjow in that epic tie breaker. This league should be used to try and showcase and improve foreign talent. I can't think of any successful professional sports leagues that limit foreign talent. Those with little foreign participation exist because the best players are not foreign. Exactly. The NBA/NHL have tons of foreign players.
Well, "tons" in the case of both these leagues represents a very small percent of the players in the league. over 50% of the players in the NHL are Canadian, and over 20% are American. There's no threat to their sports livelihood. The NBA being similar obviously favoring American players. Basically my point comes from European examples of soccer, and more well known for me, water polo. I know the latter isn't a very well known sport for most, but their leagues have limits on foreign players, for the simple reason that to develop their own players, they allow the best foreign players to play, but put a limit on how many. That was my point. Having a few Korean players in the league would be a good thing for NA/EU players, getting a chance to play against top talent. Having a league with half Koreans, for a foreign community wouldn't help at all to improve the talent pool as not enough top NA/EU players will be exposed to games vs. them.
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On March 16 2011 10:46 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:45 Subversion wrote:
Hey look, if Koreans put up application videos in English then all the power to them. They clearly want to be involved, and if they deserve a spot, I say invite them.
But I don't think we should just be throwing invitations at every gosu Korean there is. Like I've said before, a few Koreans is fantastic and makes things interesting. 35 Koreans does not. Startale did it, yet you're suggesting that we shouldn't let them in.
I think he was saying that they should be limited... which seems to be the plan. I feel that a limited amount is the best solution, but this topic is interesting none the less.
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On March 16 2011 10:44 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:42 caradoc wrote:On March 16 2011 10:37 Peas wrote:
Ask yourself who the top 50 players in the world are They're not all koreans. Not even half of them are. Name 32 foreigners better than ST.Ace. You'll have a hard time to name even five. Now name 32 Koreans better than ST.Ace. All you have to do is list the Code S roster.
Ace Crushed IdrA who was technically, still a code S player. I dont think Hungun, anypro, SCFou, TheBestFoU, HuK, Zenio, CheckPrime, RainBoW, OgSTheWind, Ensare, Hyperdub, Genius...yeah most of the player who didntmake it to the round of 16 are better than him.
He`s around the level of TOP, Clide and SanZenith...maybe a little better.
Ace is pretty good man.
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I want to watch top level StarCraft.
Not lower skilled kids that are dodging the actual best players in the world.
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Who wants to watch the SAME players in a different league? I sure as hell don't. I get enough of the same 48+ Koreans by watching GSL. I don't need to watch them in NASL.
If the NASL becomes GSL # 2, it will have been a waste of time/money.
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On March 16 2011 06:50 spancho wrote:
Considering that the GSL makes foreigners fly to Korea to compete (even though its the "Global" Star League), seams fair for the NASL to force anyone who wants to compete to fly to NA and have to go through rounds of elimination. HayprO, even though he was a top foreigner still didnt make it into the first couple of GSL rounds he tried for. Makes sense then that oGsMC should have to get cheesed out of a couple of prelims for the NASL.
Edit: Basically what Im saying is that if a Korean is willing to sacrifice playing in the GSL, and willing to live in the US, then they should be able to play. I would be perfectly happy if the entire tourney was Korean, as long as they had to make the same choice that Huk and Jinro did. To be fair, that would mean that Huk and Jinro couldnt play in the NASL so maybe this would be a bad policy.
I dont really think that is solid reasoning, the same would have to be said for europeans as well then. And most of it is held offline so if they want to deal with latency issues that is their perogative. They are going to have to fly out anyways for the round of 16 but saying that they would have to fly out just to play in an online tournament is silly, if it was a live offline tournament (wich everyone would prefer) then they would have to fly out and im sure some of them would, but if your not expecting people living in europe or even the opposite side of the country or canada to fly to play in an online tournament (again silly) then you cant expect koreans to do it either. Maybe if the NASL does well they will change it to an all offline format (wich they should) and make it similair to the gsl.
I have a problem with this whole invitational format anyways like ive said numerous times they seem to be deciding not based on skill but based on some sort of popularity contest. I really wish they just held qualifiers for the first three seasons and made people fly in specifically for offline qualifiers (for a weekend or something) that would attract any serious pro gamers (wich is what we all want) and would allow the best to qualify, then continue to have qualifiers every season after the first three open seasons with the top players fromm the open seasons staying in the tournament and the bottom 16 being sent down to a lesser league (similair to GSL but without code a and code s and hosting most of the tournament online aside from the qualifiers and the round of 16)
I want the best players i dont think anyone deserves to be invited (not even the best player in the world) they should have to fight for their right to partty er play i mean its the most fair way to go about things.
The way the NASl works now if the bottom 16 players drop out of the tournament( i think? correct me if im wrong) that will be fair though over time, as eventually after a few season all the baddies will be weeded out and replaced with deserving players(not players who got invited based on some sort of popularity contest instead of skill) For instance it looks like incontrol will pretty much be auto invited into the NASL even though hes a caster and i would say most agree he is not a Top 50 player if your taking players from korea , europe and north america its pretty easy to choose 50 players that are a tier above him in terms of skill, im sure other players who are close to xeris (fnatic msi) will also get a free pass into the NASL as he stated in an interview it will be him russ and duncan who decide who is going to be in the NASL with Xeris being the only one who knows alot about starcraft and russ and duncan being fairly new to the scene (russ didnt even know who whirera was on SOTG) so its safe to say that Xeris will pretty much be deciding on his own who gets into the NASL or not.
Does that seem fair, doesnt really seem fair to me, i would be happy if they released some sort of criteria for how they are going to choose players but it doesnt seem like they have done that yet.
I can see it now russ and duncan going down the NASL poll naming off players with xeris chiming in on weather they deserve it or not, thats not a critieria imo (im not saying thats for sure the way they do it , but they havent really said how so im just using that as an example)
anyways I really hope the NASL turns out to be great and i think that the criteria for who should be allowed into the NASL should be based on RESULTS and i hope they at least take that into account, for now ill be waiting nervously to see who is invited , i do not think they should limit any koreans i think out of the koreans who apply 10-15 will easily be worthy and they should take those along with the best of the best from north america, and from there over the next three seasons the weak will be weeded out and eventually (hopefully) we will have a very legit league in north america 
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As of right now, there aren't even 50 good western players in existence. There's gonna be a huge skillgap in the tournament even without the koreans. There is but a handful of foreigners able to consistently take games off of top koreans and maybe even win a BO3 and a BO5 if they have a good day.
If you don't invite atleast some of the best koreans, I feel like the majority of the participants will stick with their practice regime of 2 hours on weekends, remain bad and play games nobody cares about.
I would never pay money to see blur take on pokebunny in a bo5 however, I will throw my money at you if I get to see them being rolfstomped by MVP or MC, more bacon, I will throw additional bacon at you if I get to see somebody like Tyler, Idra or Jinro take on MVP in a real series.
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EPT
