On March 16 2011 09:55 Peas wrote: The NASL is the first major step towards creating the infrastructure we need. If 20+ korean's come here and dominate the tournament, it will DETER western based investors and it will suffocate our attempt to build a culture as strong as theirs
I don't understand the this viewpoint at all.
Do people not enjoy Tennis even when they aren't Swedish? (during Federer domination period) Isn't the EPL fantasically successful even when more than 50% of the players aren't British.
Are so many Americans so egotistical that they can only "enjoy" watching other Americans play - and not appreciate the game for what it is.
Terrible terrible, irrelevant, terrible examples.
Its not about enjoying the game, its about having a culture that supports you such that yuo can dedicate your life to getting better. DO YOU NOT FCUKING UNDERSTAND THIS?
btw Federer is not swedish
Look at the prize structures for any tournament. Try to support yourself on a $500 eighth place prize. Not gonna happen. Prize money isn't where they get to support themselves, it's team sponsorships. How do those get bigger? When more people are interested. Therefore, the dude you replied to is being perfectly relevant when he's asking you if people are in it for the games or not. Popularity (and your precious "infrastructure") come from good games, not having non Koreans in there.
On March 16 2011 09:42 mufin wrote: If a good number of invites go to koreans, then its going to be up to the NA/EU players to put in the hard work to keep up with them. If they can't keep up, then the casual viewers (majority) aren't going to stick around to watch their hometown superheroes get clobbered over and over again.
Then maybe it's up to the NA/EU players to step up their game and actually BE the hometown superhero and not the hometown scrub. (no offense to NA/EU players, i love a lot of you, just clarifying how this view is stupid)
You don't address any of my points and label my argument as "stupid" because you lack basic reading comprehension skills. I doubt you even read anything after what you quoted.
If a good number of invites go to koreans, then its going to be up to the NA/EU players to put in the hard work to keep up with them. If they can't keep up, then the casual viewers (majority) aren't going to stick around to watch their hometown superheroes get clobbered over and over again. From their point of view, seeing Koreans occupy every top 16 slot can be a huge turnoff especially if its their first exposure to the scene.
It's easy for people on TL to post the obvious, objective answer ("invite the best"), but from NASL's perspective, its not so easy when money is involved.
In the end, whatever NASL ends up doing, they're going to get hate for it. Its a lose-lose situation.
read it slowly and carefully this time.
I'm not arguing whether foreign players can or can't compete with the Koreans. I'm looking at it from the perspective that matters (NASL's) which is IF the foreigners get smashed repeatedly by Koreans, then their going to lose viewers. It may be great for the players since the competition makes them work harder, but the league is losing money in the process.
Oh I've read every post in this entire thread. But you can personally attack me more. I'm saying your analogy is stupid because it's not the korean's fault the hometown heroes are getting stomped and losing fanship/viewers, it's the hometown heroes faults and their job/responsibility to live up to their fandom, and if they DONT, that's their fault for failing. Blocking out the korean's just to build up your fandom, is bullshit.
so don't watch it, their will be about 100 casuals to replace you.
On March 16 2011 08:55 caradoc wrote: bad argument. How many foreigners have attempted to qualify for the GSL? How many have actually made it? make a ratio out of these two numbers. Now do the same for koreans. Compare ratios. Now try again to make that argument using those two ratios. you will find it is impossible.
What the hell? Did you entirely miss my point? lots of people are claiming the the NASL should be reserved for the best players in the world, the best of the best. What i am saying is that if yuo believe the above is true, you would have to be ok with an NASL comprised almost solely of koreans. Comprende?
Let the number of 'foreigners' who have attempted to qualify for GSL = f let the number of 'foreigners' who have succeeded = F
F/f = Fr
Let the number of koreans who have attempted to qualify for GSL = k let the number of koreans who have succeeded = K
K/k = Kr
Fr > Kr
your whole point is hyperbole, you're spreading doom and gloom about how koreans will dominate and the NA/EU players will not have a chance, but there is very little that you use to base your opinions on aside from assertions rehashed with different words, which make them sound racist.
On March 16 2011 06:42 motbob wrote: Frankly, the best scene right now is clearly the Korean scene. The evidence for this is diverse and extremely convincing. In IEM, players who can generously be considered high Code A material wiped the floor with some of the best players the rest of the world had to offer. In the FXOpen, an international tournament, relative unknowns in the Korean scene oGsHero and TheStC placed first and second. Huk was one of the best players, if not the best player, in North America during the time between the launch of the game and his trip to Korea. He recently qualified for Code S after some struggle, implying that his dominance over the North American scene did not translate to dominance over the Korean scene.
The list goes on. Koreans are simply better right now.
Another thing we need to discuss before proceeding is that the NASL format is very, very favorable to players already in the league. The top 42 34 out of 50 players in an NASL season advance to the next season. So, we can probably assume that players such as MC, MVP, etc would never leave the league.
Given the above, I would be surprised if the NASL invites more than about 5 Koreans, and I would be surprised and disappointed if they were to invite the very top Koreans. I'll explain why.
The TSL is the best international tournament in terms of quality of play. The organizers invited the very best players because they wanted to see the very best play. But the NASL is not the TSL. It has very different goals from the TSL.
Forget the NASL intro video. "The best players the world has ever seen?" If that were their goal, they'd invite 30 Koreans. The NASL's goal is entertainment, and they have a very specific mindset about how to achieve that goal. We've seen that a big part of the league is about drama and storylines.
Inviting the top Koreans will make the NASL worse, for one main reason: the likes of MVP would trash the top foreigners in North America (barring maybe Idra) with no problems at all. It would not be close. If ST.Ace can smash some of the top Europeans without dropping a set, imagine what the very best players in Korea could do. That prospect does not appeal to me as a spectator, and I don't think it's an outcome that the NASL organizers want.
Inviting Koreans in general is problematic because it's difficult to create storylines and drama around them, but that can be mitigated by only inviting Koreans that are unique in some way, other than just being really good. Names that pop up in my head are July, GuineaPig (for his aggression both on the battlefield and in in-game chat), Squirtle, Moon (his play at IEM was like nothing I'd seen before).
So. Invite a few Koreans, ones that have a creative style, or better yet ones that have ties to the foreigner community already (like Cella!)
I can watch GSL if I want to see the best play in the world. I want NASL to have the highest entertainment value possible, and that's why I don't support inviting many Koreans or the best Koreans.
I feel like there is a fundamental flaw in this sort of argument. I don't mean to imply these views necessarily as being infallible, but there is a key framework that the sports management world has. And, because NASL champions to be a promoter of eSports they should definitely take this into consideration.
One of the 5 keys aspects to developing a sports league is having transcendent players and having the best of the world playing. The reason people watch the NFL and the league dominates the market, and not the United Football League or others, is because the NFL has the best talent. The same goes for why soccer leagues in Europe dominate over the MLS. The same should apply for any eSports venture. If there is an opportunity to get the best talent, then you should venture out and get it. Though people want to watch players who are better than them--and by all means, any player who eventually plays in the NASL will be better than whoever is watching them play--they also want to see the best out there.
This does not necessarily mean that the entire field should be Korean. Other factors in developing a sports league need to be taken into account such as geography, and thus certainly bias needs to be given to the foreigners. However, limiting Korean participation so much is neither a good idea for the fans nor for the enterprise. I doubt there is anyone who would say that if the opportunity exists for the top (MVP, MC, MKP, Nestea, etc.) and most "transcendent" (ie Boxer, Nada, July, etc.) 16 Koreans to come and play in an American league, that this opportunity should not be taken. It gives the league more relevance and more legitimacy in the long run.
Of course, it doesn't have to the case for this season, but the earlier the better. There are many ways in which if the competition seems unfair against the foreigners that it could be alleviated. What immediately comes to mind is a set up that resembles the World Baseball Classic or even WCG. Unless a champions league for SC2 is a realizable possibility in the near future--one in which the top 4 from NASL get to play against the top 4 in the GSL and the top 4 in the IEM (or something like that)--then limiting one leagues playing field just takes away from its possible competitive nature.
In conclusion, the NASL should really consider allowing the best of the best comprising a much bigger portion of the field if it is serious about growing not only itself but eSports as a whole in the near future barring some contract of a superleague with the GSL.
There are countless examples of sports leagues that limit the amount of foreign players allowed per team, for the simple reason that they have an interest in developing local talent. There's no doubt that the best players in the world are Korean, but this league to me seems more about developing the sport outside of Korea, in which case, only bringing in a few Koreans as opposed to say a third of the field makes more sense. With a consistent league to practice for, and more games/competition, foreign players may have a chance at closing the gap between foreign and Korean players, which isn't as big as people make it out to be. Jinro has success in GSL and loses games to NA/EU players in team leagues. Idra had some decent success in GSL and loses games to foreign players as well. IEM was a different story, but even then Squirtle didn't exactly roll over Socke and Sjow in that epic tie breaker.
This league should be used to try and showcase and improve foreign talent.
I can't think of any successful professional sports leagues that limit foreign talent. Those with little foreign participation exist because the best players are not foreign.
Exactly. The NBA/NHL have tons of foreign players.
On March 16 2011 09:42 mufin wrote: If a good number of invites go to koreans, then its going to be up to the NA/EU players to put in the hard work to keep up with them. If they can't keep up, then the casual viewers (majority) aren't going to stick around to watch their hometown superheroes get clobbered over and over again.
Then maybe it's up to the NA/EU players to step up their game and actually BE the hometown superhero and not the hometown scrub. (no offense to NA/EU players, i love a lot of you, just clarifying how this view is stupid)
You don't address any of my points and label my argument as "stupid" because you lack basic reading comprehension skills. I doubt you even read anything after what you quoted.
If a good number of invites go to koreans, then its going to be up to the NA/EU players to put in the hard work to keep up with them. If they can't keep up, then the casual viewers (majority) aren't going to stick around to watch their hometown superheroes get clobbered over and over again. From their point of view, seeing Koreans occupy every top 16 slot can be a huge turnoff especially if its their first exposure to the scene.
It's easy for people on TL to post the obvious, objective answer ("invite the best"), but from NASL's perspective, its not so easy when money is involved.
In the end, whatever NASL ends up doing, they're going to get hate for it. Its a lose-lose situation.
read it slowly and carefully this time.
I'm not arguing whether foreign players can or can't compete with the Koreans. I'm looking at it from the perspective that matters (NASL's) which is IF the foreigners get smashed repeatedly by Koreans, then their going to lose viewers. It may be great for the players since the competition makes them work harder, but the league is losing money in the process.
Oh I've read every post in this entire thread. But you can personally attack me more. I'm saying your analogy is stupid because it's not the korean's fault the hometown heroes are getting stomped and losing fanship/viewers, it's the hometown heroes faults and their job/responsibility to live up to their fandom, and if they DONT, that's their fault for failing. Blocking out the korean's just to build up your fandom, is bullshit.
so don't watch it, their will be about 100 casuals to replace you.
LOL, i somehow don't believe this, and it's the same casuals that complain about not having everything free for them. we'll see how long NASL can last without support from their fanbase.
I think people are forgetting that this is just the first season. There will be 16 new spots every season. If Koreans choose to join and they are that good the league will soon balance itself and have the best players.
All this discussion is just for the first season, that is invitational. We have 3 guaranteed, so there will be potentially 32 new players at the end of the third.
On March 16 2011 08:03 SexyHyung wrote: Listening to Pokebunny, at first I thought he was trolling, but I guess this is what happens when you let little kids post whatever they want without supervision. I was insulted by many things that he said.
First of all, he stated somewhere that korean players are only in this for the money. Let's not be naive and pretend that money isn't a factor in this, but to blatantly accuse every single korean player of being a money grubbing ho is just ridiculous. I'm sure that pokebunny is too young to know, but some people have other motivations to play starcraft, such as they find it fun, they love to play starcraft, and they want to be known, they want to show some great games to their fans, and they want to play against some good foreigners and have some great games. People don't become professional starcraft gamers just for the money.
Something that just comes to mind for example is a video I recently saw of Artosis at the 2005 WCG. He said that he just quit whatever job he was doing and spend a few months focusing solely on getting better, and that it was the highlight of his year. That was how dedicated he was and how much he loved the game. Are you going to accuse him of moving to korea and becoming a paid caster just because he's greedy and hes in it for the money?
Pokebunny also said that julyzerg was being fake, and not into whatever just because his english wasn't that great.
Are you serious? Do you honestly expect people who probably studied some korean in highschool to be able to freely speak english? Yah, maybe they've seen titanic, but that's not enough to make you fluent. And you're not even referring to anybody else. Have you heard Moman? I don't even know half the shit he's saying. It's not as if I don't get the subtle reference here is that you don't like english with non-white accents. No matter how racist you don't think you are, it really makes me wonder. All you hear is probably ching chong ling long ting tong, but i can understand them alot more clearly than 90% of the european player videos. I'm not even going to mention some others, like QXC, who doesn't even have sound in his.
reminds me of this
and to say that korean sc2 players have no personality is so lulzy. sure they may be polite, but it's not as if people like socke or white-ra are raging in their face. they can conduct funny interviews to, albeit in korean due to the english language barrier. they have shit tons of personality, most of it showed through the playing style of their games. they don't need to have idra-level BM to have personality.
theres also a few other things i want to point out. first of all is how accepting GSL is of foreigners. can anyone actually name me a better league that has done so much to help foreigners compete?
-foreigners not being placed against each other in qualifiers so they don't know each other out -english stream -english casters (tastosis and kellymilkies and doa) -4 free code A spots (not even going to mention how hard the qualifiers are. i'm pretty sure code A qualifiers are alot harder than IEM or MLG) -FREE FOREIGNER HOUSING if you want to stay and train and compete -translators (john) -flying players in for the world team league
all the teams are nice too. OGS works with liquid. Even ST invited Torch. To say that they aren't doing anything to help foreigners is ridiculous.
and someone said that koreans didn't have to stay and live, and that was a huge barrier, and that koreans only had to stay for a weekend to compete. i fail to see how thats a problem, as it's only because of the playing format. the korean matches are played live, so the people have to be there. you can go wherever the hell you want between your matches, as all you have to do is show up.
NASL matches apparently are online, so you don't need to live in that area to compete, or i'm sure that would limit foreigners just like GSL does.
i just want to end what i'm saying with that i understand that NASL is to help foreign esports grow. i'm not advocating having all players be korean. even 5-10 spots would be great. but this blind idiocy that people like pokebunny have is just retarded. i personally think it would be awesome to have NA players beat korean players. Anybody that could take on MVP in a best of 3 and win would automatically become a sc2 celebrity, just like squirtle. if i wanted to settle for ok master level games with entertainment value i'd just watch destiny's stream as his zerg QQ is 10x more entertaining than pokebunny will ever be
I saw someone mention a great post on page 16, and I figured I'd quote it so more people who don't have the patience to sift through the entire topic have a better chance of seeing it.
On March 16 2011 09:55 Peas wrote: The NASL is the first major step towards creating the infrastructure we need. If 20+ korean's come here and dominate the tournament, it will DETER western based investors and it will suffocate our attempt to build a culture as strong as theirs
I don't understand the this viewpoint at all.
Do people not enjoy Tennis even when they aren't Swedish? (during Federer domination period) Isn't the EPL fantasically successful even when more than 50% of the players aren't British.
Are so many Americans so egotistical that they can only "enjoy" watching other Americans play - and not appreciate the game for what it is.
Terrible terrible, irrelevant, terrible examples.
Its not about enjoying the game, its about having a culture that supports you such that yuo can dedicate your life to getting better. DO YOU NOT FCUKING UNDERSTAND THIS?
btw Federer is not swedish
Yea we need a culture that supports esports. You have failed address what I responded to your garbage post with earlier. The only way to foster that culture is to bring as many koreans as possible over and pit them against top Western pros. Yea koreans might kick the shit out of the westerners, but if a culture of them playing with and against eachother is established, then the skill divide will eventually go away. You are a complete idiot if you think that we can attain an esports culture without allowing koreans in. (Or as you put it 'that allowing koreans in will DETER western esports growth'
Replace basketball with starcraft 2, 'all american basketball alliance' with NASL, and Don "Moose" Lewis (the fat turd) with those agreeing with segregation.
Haha, I remember watching that and thinking it was one of the dumbest things I had ever seen :|
People having different view points and opinions is fine on this subject but as nothing has happened yet (i.e all this arguing and debating is kind of irrelevant until you see what the NASL actually does regarding the invites).
I would have much preferred an open tournament for qualifiers rather then invites, but hey what are you going to do.
As a spectator I would rather watch a tournament with the best players, I get excited over players like July, MVP, Nestea, Fruitdealer. Players who do things that other players can't do or get away with. I'm not too into the Drama side and all that, I watch starcraft to see the games, if I wanted to see a show, I would go watch a regular TV show or a movie.
It's just going to come down to simply being unable to appease everyone so instead you go to cater to the majority and not the minority and the poll results in the OP is showing what the majority would prefer.
On March 16 2011 10:05 Subversion wrote: 3. I never said Koreans themselves are boring dude, this isn't some kind of personal attack. But watching Korean interviews IS boring. They have a culture of extreme politeness and respect and humility. Admirable, sure, but it makes for really poor entertainment. Its hard to have smack-talk between two people who don't speak the same language (although IdrA does his best )
You say ultimately it is their games and their skills that we care about, but who is this generalised "we" you're referring to? There's a reason WWE is insanely popular, and it has nothing to do with people's wrestling ability. If you DON'T want inter-gamer drama, don't watch the NASL. Because in a number of interviews they've stated that that is actually exactly what they want.
So you admit you want the NASL to be more like the WWE than a real sport. In real sports like Hockey and Baseball, the interviews are exactly like the Korean interviews. Practiced hard, support of my team, hope to do better next time.
That seems to be what he's getting at. Personally, I find the WWE to be kind of a joke, and if SC2 were to degrade into crap like that, I'd probably cry.
Its like Destiny`s application with a Pokemon scene. It`s hilarious, at the same time it`s sad. Imagine the champions league interview or intro, and some ridiculous parodies were done. Nobody would take it seriously.
And i think that, if you want a guy that has no personality in interviews, Idra is a good example. If you think that Korean progammers aren`t taking a piss at other progammers, people are living in a dream world or something.
I would personally recommend top tier koreans that are talked about less.
Putting in TSL_Clide, Zenio, Leenock would make the brackets interesting as these players are extremely solid and dangerous.
As an American i actually dont want to see top americans playing against each other, as it is very boring and anticlimactic. i wouldnt consider KiWi american, but hes on NA so i guess its different.
Putting Top NA, EU, and mid KR players would actually make it more interesting as we all know that watching leenock, who's 15, dominate some players would be hilarious and bm
I just really want to see Tyler vs Koreans and all the other top foreigners that haven't played Koreans play Koreans. Rooting for the foreigner underdog is fun, especially since if they win, you know they're DAMN GOOD.
On March 16 2011 09:42 mufin wrote: If a good number of invites go to koreans, then its going to be up to the NA/EU players to put in the hard work to keep up with them. If they can't keep up, then the casual viewers (majority) aren't going to stick around to watch their hometown superheroes get clobbered over and over again.
Then maybe it's up to the NA/EU players to step up their game and actually BE the hometown superhero and not the hometown scrub. (no offense to NA/EU players, i love a lot of you, just clarifying how this view is stupid)
You don't address any of my points and label my argument as "stupid" because you lack basic reading comprehension skills. I doubt you even read anything after what you quoted.
If a good number of invites go to koreans, then its going to be up to the NA/EU players to put in the hard work to keep up with them. If they can't keep up, then the casual viewers (majority) aren't going to stick around to watch their hometown superheroes get clobbered over and over again. From their point of view, seeing Koreans occupy every top 16 slot can be a huge turnoff especially if its their first exposure to the scene.
It's easy for people on TL to post the obvious, objective answer ("invite the best"), but from NASL's perspective, its not so easy when money is involved.
In the end, whatever NASL ends up doing, they're going to get hate for it. Its a lose-lose situation.
read it slowly and carefully this time.
I'm not arguing whether foreign players can or can't compete with the Koreans. I'm looking at it from the perspective that matters (NASL's) which is IF the foreigners get smashed repeatedly by Koreans, then their going to lose viewers. It may be great for the players since the competition makes them work harder, but the league is losing money in the process.
Oh I've read every post in this entire thread. But you can personally attack me more. I'm saying your analogy is stupid because it's not the korean's fault the hometown heroes are getting stomped and losing fanship/viewers, it's the hometown heroes faults and their job/responsibility to live up to their fandom, and if they DONT, that's their fault for failing. Blocking out the korean's just to build up your fandom, is bullshit.
so don't watch it, their will be about 100 casuals to replace you.
LOL, i somehow don't believe this, and it's the same casuals that complain about not having everything free for them. we'll see how long NASL can last without support from their fanbase.
EPT
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