On March 16 2011 09:55 Peas wrote: The NASL is the first major step towards creating the infrastructure we need. If 20+ korean's come here and dominate the tournament, it will DETER western based investors and it will suffocate our attempt to build a culture as strong as theirs
I don't understand the this viewpoint at all.
Do people not enjoy Tennis even when they aren't Swedish? (during Federer domination period) Isn't the EPL fantasically successful even when more than 50% of the players aren't British.
Are so many Americans so egotistical that they can only "enjoy" watching other Americans play - and not appreciate the game for what it is.
Terrible terrible, irrelevant, terrible examples.
Its not about enjoying the game, its about having a culture that supports you such that yuo can dedicate your life to getting better. DO YOU NOT FCUKING UNDERSTAND THIS?
With this kind of prize pool, and the hype that has come with the NASL, it better be the best damn players in the world. Last thing we need is to see IEM world finals top 3 be taken by code A drop outs.
On March 16 2011 09:42 mufin wrote: If a good number of invites go to koreans, then its going to be up to the NA/EU players to put in the hard work to keep up with them. If they can't keep up, then the casual viewers (majority) aren't going to stick around to watch their hometown superheroes get clobbered over and over again.
Then maybe it's up to the NA/EU players to step up their game and actually BE the hometown superhero and not the hometown scrub. (no offense to NA/EU players, i love a lot of you, just clarifying how this view is stupid)
You don't address any of my points and label my argument as "stupid" because you lack basic reading comprehension skills. I doubt you even read anything after what you quoted.
If a good number of invites go to koreans, then its going to be up to the NA/EU players to put in the hard work to keep up with them. If they can't keep up, then the casual viewers (majority) aren't going to stick around to watch their hometown superheroes get clobbered over and over again. From their point of view, seeing Koreans occupy every top 16 slot can be a huge turnoff especially if its their first exposure to the scene.
It's easy for people on TL to post the obvious, objective answer ("invite the best"), but from NASL's perspective, its not so easy when money is involved.
In the end, whatever NASL ends up doing, they're going to get hate for it. Its a lose-lose situation.
read it slowly and carefully this time.
I'm not arguing whether foreign players can or can't compete with the Koreans. I'm looking at it from the perspective that matters (NASL's) which is IF the foreigners get smashed repeatedly by Koreans, then their going to lose viewers. It may be great for the players since the competition makes them work harder, but the league is losing money in the process.
On March 16 2011 09:55 Peas wrote: The NASL is the first major step towards creating the infrastructure we need. If 20+ korean's come here and dominate the tournament, it will DETER western based investors and it will suffocate our attempt to build a culture as strong as theirs
I don't understand the this viewpoint at all.
Do people not enjoy Tennis even when they aren't Swedish? (during Federer domination period) Isn't the EPL fantasically successful even when more than 50% of the players aren't British.
Are so many Americans so egotistical that they can only "enjoy" watching other Americans play - and not appreciate the game for what it is.
Terrible terrible, irrelevant, terrible examples.
Its not about enjoying the game, its about having a culture that supports you such that yuo can dedicate your life to getting better. DO YOU NOT FCUKING UNDERSTAND THIS?
btw Federer is not swedish
and by having sub-par tournaments will build that culture? and yes we know federer is swiss. stop strawmaning
On March 16 2011 09:27 Subversion wrote: You people arguing that you only want the best and nothing else are all fucking hypocrites.
I didn't see a single complaint thread over the TSL Korean invites. Why should Boxer be invited? He's certainly not the best - dude just got knocked into Code A. He was invited because he's BOXER, he's a big name, he's really famous, people want to see him play. In terms of raw skill, there are plenty of people more deserving.
What about Haypro? He is a good player certainly, but in Korea has had extremely limited success. Even Ret to a certain extent. Why no complaints? Obviously he's from Liquid and its their tournament, but he's also a foreigner, and people want to see how our foreigners in Korea shape up to the Western competition.
NASL is not just producing a tournament, they're producing an epic show. They want drama, rivalry, smack-talk and all other kinds of things which are ENTERTAINING to watch. Some of you may think that simply seeing the best of the best crushing every tournament and giving modest, translated and frankly boring interviews is entertaining, but a lot of people disagree.
You need to remember that NASL is about expanding e-sports in the WEST, it's doing just fine in Korea already. If someone new to SC2 turns on NASL and sees people being crushed by Koreans and then giving a boring as hell interview in Korean, they probably won't really have their interest piqued. We want people to get involved, we want e-sports to grow, so we should also want NASL to be a helluva show to the casual player, and not just our elitist overinflated egos.
Come on guys.
I'd like to drop some truthbombs on these statements if I may.
1. NASL is not the TSL. The TSL is produced by Team Liquid, for Team Liquid and its community. It comes around once a year and is special because it is exactly what we want. They can be biased, choosing their own players, choosing players based on popularity, etc. The NASL not only purports to have the best players in the world, but is an unaffiliated organization that should be unbiased when choosing its participants.
2. StarCraft II is doing better in the West than it is in Korea. Brood War still reigns supreme there. GSL may seem big but it is essentially the only major SC2 tournament in Korea and the players there are itching to play in anything they can. Outside of Korea, there are hundreds of tournaments with a lot, A LOT of prize money. Despite this, the skill level is higher in Korea for the many reasons that any StarCraft-educated person can tell you.
3. Koreans aren't boring as hell, that's a flat-out insult and complete bullshit to boot. They haven't been given the CHANCE to express themselves to us as an audience. The GSL interviews are rubbish. I was more engaged by Startale's applications than most of the non-Koreans', and I expect more interesting personalities to come out if teams like oGs and IM participate, which you seem so concerned with. It will be not only an interesting contrast to Western players, but we can see the inter-team dynamics and a better look into their lives--which are much different than the many of "pros" playing from home, with school or a primary job taking up their time.
Also I saw so many applications from Westerners wherein the player did nothing of note other than speak to the camera monotonously listing their accomplishments, and sometimes in poor English, which seems to be a common complaint regarding Koreans. Summary? StarCraft players are often boring. Yes, some have entertaining personalities. But we have to give them the chance to express themselves better regardless of their nationality. Ultimately, it is their games and their skill we care about. If you want inter-gamer drama go watch WCG Ultimate Gamer.
I never said Koreans themselves are boring dude, this isn't some kind of personal attack. But watching Korean interviews IS boring. They have a culture of extreme politeness and respect and humility. Admirable, sure, but it makes for really poor entertainment. Its hard to have smack-talk between two people who don't speak the same language (although IdrA does his best )
Tiger Woods (before his scandal) was the most popular golfer in the world and always gave plain interviews. Federer and Nadal are extremely well mannered and good sportsmen. The lack of bm and trash talk never hurt their popularity. Sports fans loved them for their skill, not their personalities.
Agreed. A respectable sport thrives because it's interesting enough to watch just for the play of the sport itself, not because there are ridiculous explosive personalities everywhere BMing it up. I have faith that SC2 is capable of being such a sport. It shouldn't need a league full of rivalries, drama, and showboating to be interesting.
On March 16 2011 10:05 Subversion wrote: 3. I never said Koreans themselves are boring dude, this isn't some kind of personal attack. But watching Korean interviews IS boring. They have a culture of extreme politeness and respect and humility. Admirable, sure, but it makes for really poor entertainment. Its hard to have smack-talk between two people who don't speak the same language (although IdrA does his best )
You say ultimately it is their games and their skills that we care about, but who is this generalised "we" you're referring to? There's a reason WWE is insanely popular, and it has nothing to do with people's wrestling ability. If you DON'T want inter-gamer drama, don't watch the NASL. Because in a number of interviews they've stated that that is actually exactly what they want.
So you admit you want the NASL to be more like the WWE than a real sport. In real sports like Hockey and Baseball, the interviews are exactly like the Korean interviews. Practiced hard, support of my team, hope to do better next time.
That seems to be what he's getting at. Personally, I find the WWE to be kind of a joke, and if SC2 were to degrade into crap like that, I'd probably cry.
Seriously.. We're comparing SC2 to the WWE? You want it to grow right? The Koreans compare it to actual sports, we should do the same. I don't know a single person who watches the WWE, and if I did, I wouldn't be friends with them. Christ... If you want to see e-sports grow, treat it like an actual sport FFS. There's a reason everyone watches football; it's real, the games are amazing, it's real, it's professional and at times it's not, and it's everything the "WWE" isn't.
Growing western esports is good and all but you cant restrict it from a certain area of players. With this being a NASL, and korea WANTING to join it, it will put more focus on the west. Just like how all the foreigners want to go to korea to compete, if everyone wants to come to NA to compete the focus will be on the west. If we dont involve korean players it will always be "this league is good, but the players cant compete with the koreans." which is focusing on esports in korea in a sense.
Edit: Like if we have a westerner win the NASL, all the attention of the sc2 world will be looking at the foreigners. If there was no koreans in it, they will say "well thats because no koreans were in it or theyd dominate."
On March 16 2011 10:08 Ghost-z wrote: NASL is a privately run INVITATIONAL league. They will invite whoever the fuck they want be it Korean, American or South African.
I'm gonna make an sc2 invitational tournament. At stake: everything I have, seriously. Streamed two hours every day with an extreme amount of commercials. Or skip the commercials if you buy the premium stream! Invites: Myself, my cat and that old lady from across the street.
On March 16 2011 09:27 Subversion wrote: You people arguing that you only want the best and nothing else are all fucking hypocrites.
I didn't see a single complaint thread over the TSL Korean invites. Why should Boxer be invited? He's certainly not the best - dude just got knocked into Code A. He was invited because he's BOXER, he's a big name, he's really famous, people want to see him play. In terms of raw skill, there are plenty of people more deserving.
What about Haypro? He is a good player certainly, but in Korea has had extremely limited success. Even Ret to a certain extent. Why no complaints? Obviously he's from Liquid and its their tournament, but he's also a foreigner, and people want to see how our foreigners in Korea shape up to the Western competition.
NASL is not just producing a tournament, they're producing an epic show. They want drama, rivalry, smack-talk and all other kinds of things which are ENTERTAINING to watch. Some of you may think that simply seeing the best of the best crushing every tournament and giving modest, translated and frankly boring interviews is entertaining, but a lot of people disagree.
You need to remember that NASL is about expanding e-sports in the WEST, it's doing just fine in Korea already. If someone new to SC2 turns on NASL and sees people being crushed by Koreans and then giving a boring as hell interview in Korean, they probably won't really have their interest piqued. We want people to get involved, we want e-sports to grow, so we should also want NASL to be a helluva show to the casual player, and not just our elitist overinflated egos.
Come on guys.
I'd like to drop some truthbombs on these statements if I may.
1. NASL is not the TSL. The TSL is produced by Team Liquid, for Team Liquid and its community. It comes around once a year and is special because it is exactly what we want. They can be biased, choosing their own players, choosing players based on popularity, etc. The NASL not only purports to have the best players in the world, but is an unaffiliated organization that should be unbiased when choosing its participants.
2. StarCraft II is doing better in the West than it is in Korea. Brood War still reigns supreme there. GSL may seem big but it is essentially the only major SC2 tournament in Korea and the players there are itching to play in anything they can. Outside of Korea, there are hundreds of tournaments with a lot, A LOT of prize money. Despite this, the skill level is higher in Korea for the many reasons that any StarCraft-educated person can tell you.
3. Koreans aren't boring as hell, that's a flat-out insult and complete bullshit to boot. They haven't been given the CHANCE to express themselves to us as an audience. The GSL interviews are rubbish. I was more engaged by Startale's applications than most of the non-Koreans', and I expect more interesting personalities to come out if teams like oGs and IM participate, which you seem so concerned with. It will be not only an interesting contrast to Western players, but we can see the inter-team dynamics and a better look into their lives--which are much different than the many of "pros" playing from home, with school or a primary job taking up their time.
Also I saw so many applications from Westerners wherein the player did nothing of note other than speak to the camera monotonously listing their accomplishments, and sometimes in poor English, which seems to be a common complaint regarding Koreans. Summary? StarCraft players are often boring. Yes, some have entertaining personalities. But we have to give them the chance to express themselves better regardless of their nationality. Ultimately, it is their games and their skill we care about. If you want inter-gamer drama go watch WCG Ultimate Gamer.
1. The NASL is the NORTH AMERICAN Starleague. They want North American players, because their target audience is primarily North America. In general, almost all people prefer to watch their own, simple as that. Why should the NASL be unbiased? They have a goal they're trying to achieve, they want personality and skill. So thats what they're going after.
2. I wasn't referring to Starcraft 2 specifically, but e-sports in general. Korea has e-sports on their televisions, we want that in the West as well.
3. I never said Koreans themselves are boring dude, this isn't some kind of personal attack. But watching Korean interviews IS boring. They have a culture of extreme politeness and respect and humility. Admirable, sure, but it makes for really poor entertainment. Its hard to have smack-talk between two people who don't speak the same language (although IdrA does his best )
You say ultimately it is their games and their skills that we care about, but who is this generalised "we" you're referring to? There's a reason WWE is insanely popular, and it has nothing to do with people's wrestling ability. If you DON'T want inter-gamer drama, don't watch the NASL. Because in a number of interviews they've stated that that is actually exactly what they want.
1. oh, so no Europeans? People hate on Koreans cause they look different? I don't think so. Don't use the league title as an argument for inclusion.
3. Jinro is one of the politest players I know. Are we going to exclude him because he doesn't tell IdrA that his play is bad and outdated? Should the audition process just go by who talks the most smack then? Cause i could put up a camera right now and qualify easy then. There's a reason the WWE is popular yeah, that's also the reason why people who don't follow it ridicule it. It's not looked upon as a legitimate competition, and last I checked we all want the NASL to be a legit competition. They stated they want the best of the best as well as drama, but they're also saying they want legit competition.
There's no reason there can't be drama from Korean people. Stereotyping them as boring is borderline racist, and simply untrue. MC talks smack all the time. I loved the Startale audition videos. Zenio called IdrA out. There's equal politeness from foreign players. Yeah you get smack talkers, but you also get polite people as well. You look at MLG, how many people (all foreigners) there yelled or cursed at the other players when they lost? How many called their opponents out as bad?
More to the point, how many people watch SC or other sports (other than WWE, which doesn't really count) and think "Fuck this game, I just want to watch the players curse each other?" none, right? Sports and games aren't popular because people like drama, they're popular because the games are entertaining.
When you have this big of a prize pool, you need the very best players. There are plenty of tournament to see who the best white guy is already. Let the Koreans play!
On March 16 2011 09:42 mufin wrote: If a good number of invites go to koreans, then its going to be up to the NA/EU players to put in the hard work to keep up with them. If they can't keep up, then the casual viewers (majority) aren't going to stick around to watch their hometown superheroes get clobbered over and over again.
Then maybe it's up to the NA/EU players to step up their game and actually BE the hometown superhero and not the hometown scrub. (no offense to NA/EU players, i love a lot of you, just clarifying how this view is stupid)
You don't address any of my points and label my argument as "stupid" because you lack basic reading comprehension skills. I doubt you even read anything after what you quoted.
If a good number of invites go to koreans, then its going to be up to the NA/EU players to put in the hard work to keep up with them. If they can't keep up, then the casual viewers (majority) aren't going to stick around to watch their hometown superheroes get clobbered over and over again. From their point of view, seeing Koreans occupy every top 16 slot can be a huge turnoff especially if its their first exposure to the scene.
It's easy for people on TL to post the obvious, objective answer ("invite the best"), but from NASL's perspective, its not so easy when money is involved.
In the end, whatever NASL ends up doing, they're going to get hate for it. Its a lose-lose situation.
read it slowly and carefully this time.
I'm not arguing whether foreign players can or can't compete with the Koreans. I'm looking at it from the perspective that matters (NASL's) which is IF the foreigners get smashed repeatedly by Koreans, then their going to lose viewers. It may be great for the players since the competition makes them work harder, but the league is losing money in the process.
Oh I've read every post in this entire thread. But you can personally attack me more. I'm saying your analogy is stupid because it's not the korean's fault the hometown heroes are getting stomped and losing fanship/viewers, it's the hometown heroes faults and their job/responsibility to live up to their fandom, and if they DONT, that's their fault for failing. Blocking out the korean's just to build up your fandom, is bullshit.
The Koreans should stay in GSL purely because its a more convenient time for me to watch.....
But more seriously the amount of Koreans which get to come should only be limited by their application videos (they could be in Korean and someone would just have to translate) and they should be able to apply in the same way as anyone else. They are just people it's not their fault they have a society which enables gaming at a higher level than other countries.
Replace basketball with starcraft 2, 'all american basketball alliance' with NASL, and Don "Moose" Lewis (the fat turd) with those agreeing with segregation.
eh why is "Invite the very best players in the world even if that means very few NA and EU players in the NASL" winning when its called the North American SL T_T?
the problem with all of you saying that this tournament doesn't need the best players in the world is you don't seem to realize that there's 400k at stake over 3 seasons.
400k, what professional gamer isn't drooling over that?
On March 16 2011 06:42 motbob wrote: Frankly, the best scene right now is clearly the Korean scene. The evidence for this is diverse and extremely convincing. In IEM, players who can generously be considered high Code A material wiped the floor with some of the best players the rest of the world had to offer. In the FXOpen, an international tournament, relative unknowns in the Korean scene oGsHero and TheStC placed first and second. Huk was one of the best players, if not the best player, in North America during the time between the launch of the game and his trip to Korea. He recently qualified for Code S after some struggle, implying that his dominance over the North American scene did not translate to dominance over the Korean scene.
The list goes on. Koreans are simply better right now.
Another thing we need to discuss before proceeding is that the NASL format is very, very favorable to players already in the league. The top 42 34 out of 50 players in an NASL season advance to the next season. So, we can probably assume that players such as MC, MVP, etc would never leave the league.
Given the above, I would be surprised if the NASL invites more than about 5 Koreans, and I would be surprised and disappointed if they were to invite the very top Koreans. I'll explain why.
The TSL is the best international tournament in terms of quality of play. The organizers invited the very best players because they wanted to see the very best play. But the NASL is not the TSL. It has very different goals from the TSL.
Forget the NASL intro video. "The best players the world has ever seen?" If that were their goal, they'd invite 30 Koreans. The NASL's goal is entertainment, and they have a very specific mindset about how to achieve that goal. We've seen that a big part of the league is about drama and storylines.
Inviting the top Koreans will make the NASL worse, for one main reason: the likes of MVP would trash the top foreigners in North America (barring maybe Idra) with no problems at all. It would not be close. If ST.Ace can smash some of the top Europeans without dropping a set, imagine what the very best players in Korea could do. That prospect does not appeal to me as a spectator, and I don't think it's an outcome that the NASL organizers want.
Inviting Koreans in general is problematic because it's difficult to create storylines and drama around them, but that can be mitigated by only inviting Koreans that are unique in some way, other than just being really good. Names that pop up in my head are July, GuineaPig (for his aggression both on the battlefield and in in-game chat), Squirtle, Moon (his play at IEM was like nothing I'd seen before).
So. Invite a few Koreans, ones that have a creative style, or better yet ones that have ties to the foreigner community already (like Cella!)
I can watch GSL if I want to see the best play in the world. I want NASL to have the highest entertainment value possible, and that's why I don't support inviting many Koreans or the best Koreans.
I feel like there is a fundamental flaw in this sort of argument. I don't mean to imply these views necessarily as being infallible, but there is a key framework that the sports management world has. And, because NASL champions to be a promoter of eSports they should definitely take this into consideration.
One of the 5 keys aspects to developing a sports league is having transcendent players and having the best of the world playing. The reason people watch the NFL and the league dominates the market, and not the United Football League or others, is because the NFL has the best talent. The same goes for why soccer leagues in Europe dominate over the MLS. The same should apply for any eSports venture. If there is an opportunity to get the best talent, then you should venture out and get it. Though people want to watch players who are better than them--and by all means, any player who eventually plays in the NASL will be better than whoever is watching them play--they also want to see the best out there.
This does not necessarily mean that the entire field should be Korean. Other factors in developing a sports league need to be taken into account such as geography, and thus certainly bias needs to be given to the foreigners. However, limiting Korean participation so much is neither a good idea for the fans nor for the enterprise. I doubt there is anyone who would say that if the opportunity exists for the top (MVP, MC, MKP, Nestea, etc.) and most "transcendent" (ie Boxer, Nada, July, etc.) 16 Koreans to come and play in an American league, that this opportunity should not be taken. It gives the league more relevance and more legitimacy in the long run.
Of course, it doesn't have to the case for this season, but the earlier the better. There are many ways in which if the competition seems unfair against the foreigners that it could be alleviated. What immediately comes to mind is a set up that resembles the World Baseball Classic or even WCG. Unless a champions league for SC2 is a realizable possibility in the near future--one in which the top 4 from NASL get to play against the top 4 in the GSL and the top 4 in the IEM (or something like that)--then limiting one leagues playing field just takes away from its possible competitive nature.
In conclusion, the NASL should really consider allowing the best of the best comprising a much bigger portion of the field if it is serious about growing not only itself but eSports as a whole in the near future barring some contract of a superleague with the GSL.
There are countless examples of sports leagues that limit the amount of foreign players allowed per team, for the simple reason that they have an interest in developing local talent. There's no doubt that the best players in the world are Korean, but this league to me seems more about developing the sport outside of Korea, in which case, only bringing in a few Koreans as opposed to say a third of the field makes more sense. With a consistent league to practice for, and more games/competition, foreign players may have a chance at closing the gap between foreign and Korean players, which isn't as big as people make it out to be. Jinro has success in GSL and loses games to NA/EU players in team leagues. Idra had some decent success in GSL and loses games to foreign players as well. IEM was a different story, but even then Squirtle didn't exactly roll over Socke and Sjow in that epic tie breaker.
This league should be used to try and showcase and improve foreign talent.
I can't think of any successful professional sports leagues that limit foreign talent. Those with little foreign participation exist because the best players are not foreign.
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