|
On March 16 2011 11:08 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 11:05 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 11:01 motbob wrote:On March 16 2011 10:57 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:53 motbob wrote:On March 16 2011 10:47 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:36 motbob wrote:
All this talk about race and xenophobia reminds me of when people bring up the subject of antisemitism whenever Israel's policies are criticized. Stop it. There is a real element of both. How else do you explain people describing Korean players as boring, homogeneous, and having and unfair advantage due to 'lack of real-life commitments'? How do you explain people who prefer watching 'white' players over Koreans despite the fact a player's ethnicity has no direct relationship with his play-style? The truth of the matter is that people aren't complaining about EU players being allowed in the NASL at all. If the consensus is that EU players are better than NA players, why aren't people levying the same complaint about them? That fact alone betrays their implicit admission of prejudice against Korean players. If this sentiment is the face of Western E-Sports, I want no part of it and wish it to fail. Does overwhelming bias in favor of players like Idra and Jinro when they play in GSL imply racism? People naturally get more excited about players that speak their language and interact with their community. It has nothing to do with racism. The whole reason that Idra and Jinro had just huge viewer numbers is because they the only foreigners playing among the best competition in the world. Under your logic, MLG would be assumed to be 100 times more popular because it's ALL foreigners. That is obviously not the case. Are you someone who has difficulty looking at things in context? Thank you for mentioning MLG. The fact that the tournament is wildly popular on this website (the longest LR thread on TL is for MLG), despite the level of play being less than that of GSL, supports my point that the ideal composition of a tournament's players isn't all about player skill. Also: given your lack of reading comprehension and enormous leaps of logic in your recent posts, I would recommend that you stop being so condescending. MLG had three weekends worth of competition, averaging 150-200 pages per thread per tournament. EVERY GSL match day has threads reaching 80-120 pages. Which event do you think has higher total viewership? And all of that DESPITE the time-zone issue. Also, wasn't motbob the same guy who was saying TL wasn't representative of gamers as a whole? why use a TL thread statistic then?
Probably due to cognitive dissonance.
|
The poll is outrageous, inviting the best koreans "even if it means having few na/eu players" completely destroys the purpose of the NASL. GSL is for all the top koreans, Invite a select few to raise the skill cap of the NASL while advancing esports outside of korea by actually having NA/EU players playing, and being able to show off their skill.
|
Invite the best in the world with a limit of 20 from each region outside of north america.
|
On March 16 2011 11:01 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:57 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:53 motbob wrote:On March 16 2011 10:47 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:36 motbob wrote:
All this talk about race and xenophobia reminds me of when people bring up the subject of antisemitism whenever Israel's policies are criticized. Stop it. There is a real element of both. How else do you explain people describing Korean players as boring, homogeneous, and having and unfair advantage due to 'lack of real-life commitments'? How do you explain people who prefer watching 'white' players over Koreans despite the fact a player's ethnicity has no direct relationship with his play-style? The truth of the matter is that people aren't complaining about EU players being allowed in the NASL at all. If the consensus is that EU players are better than NA players, why aren't people levying the same complaint about them? That fact alone betrays their implicit admission of prejudice against Korean players. If this sentiment is the face of Western E-Sports, I want no part of it and wish it to fail. Does overwhelming bias in favor of players like Idra and Jinro when they play in GSL imply racism? People naturally get more excited about players that speak their language and interact with their community. It has nothing to do with racism. The whole reason that Idra and Jinro had just huge viewer numbers is because they the only foreigners playing among the best competition in the world. Under your logic, MLG would be assumed to be 100 times more popular because it's ALL foreigners. That is obviously not the case. Are you someone who has difficulty looking at things in context? Thank you for mentioning MLG. The fact that the tournament is wildly popular on this website (the longest LR thread on TL is for MLG), despite the level of play being less than that of GSL, supports my point that the ideal composition of a tournament's players isn't all about player skill. Also: given your lack of reading comprehension and enormous leaps of logic in your recent posts, I would recommend that you stop being so condescending.
I think that's an unfair comparison since a single day of MLG (1 LR thread) consists of many more matches than a single day of GSL. The entire tournament happens in three days as opposed to a month.
|
On March 16 2011 11:01 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:57 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:53 motbob wrote:On March 16 2011 10:47 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:36 motbob wrote:
All this talk about race and xenophobia reminds me of when people bring up the subject of antisemitism whenever Israel's policies are criticized. Stop it. There is a real element of both. How else do you explain people describing Korean players as boring, homogeneous, and having and unfair advantage due to 'lack of real-life commitments'? How do you explain people who prefer watching 'white' players over Koreans despite the fact a player's ethnicity has no direct relationship with his play-style? The truth of the matter is that people aren't complaining about EU players being allowed in the NASL at all. If the consensus is that EU players are better than NA players, why aren't people levying the same complaint about them? That fact alone betrays their implicit admission of prejudice against Korean players. If this sentiment is the face of Western E-Sports, I want no part of it and wish it to fail. Does overwhelming bias in favor of players like Idra and Jinro when they play in GSL imply racism? People naturally get more excited about players that speak their language and interact with their community. It has nothing to do with racism. The whole reason that Idra and Jinro had just huge viewer numbers is because they the only foreigners playing among the best competition in the world. Under your logic, MLG would be assumed to be 100 times more popular because it's ALL foreigners. That is obviously not the case. Are you someone who has difficulty looking at things in context? Thank you for mentioning MLG. The fact that the tournament is wildly popular on this website (the longest LR thread on TL is for MLG), despite the level of play being less than that of GSL, supports my point that the ideal composition of a tournament's players isn't all about player skill. Also: given your lack of reading comprehension and enormous leaps of logic in your recent posts, I would recommend that you stop being so condescending.
Are you honestly suggesting that MLG is more popular than GSL because it has more pages on a LR thread? Well gee, I wonder if it's because GSL happens at 9AM in Europe and what, 3AM in USA(?) Put MLG on at those times and see what happens.
|
motbob
United States12546 Posts
On March 16 2011 11:05 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 11:01 motbob wrote:On March 16 2011 10:57 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:53 motbob wrote:On March 16 2011 10:47 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:36 motbob wrote:
All this talk about race and xenophobia reminds me of when people bring up the subject of antisemitism whenever Israel's policies are criticized. Stop it. There is a real element of both. How else do you explain people describing Korean players as boring, homogeneous, and having and unfair advantage due to 'lack of real-life commitments'? How do you explain people who prefer watching 'white' players over Koreans despite the fact a player's ethnicity has no direct relationship with his play-style? The truth of the matter is that people aren't complaining about EU players being allowed in the NASL at all. If the consensus is that EU players are better than NA players, why aren't people levying the same complaint about them? That fact alone betrays their implicit admission of prejudice against Korean players. If this sentiment is the face of Western E-Sports, I want no part of it and wish it to fail. Does overwhelming bias in favor of players like Idra and Jinro when they play in GSL imply racism? People naturally get more excited about players that speak their language and interact with their community. It has nothing to do with racism. The whole reason that Idra and Jinro had just huge viewer numbers is because they the only foreigners playing among the best competition in the world. Under your logic, MLG would be assumed to be 100 times more popular because it's ALL foreigners. That is obviously not the case. Are you someone who has difficulty looking at things in context? Thank you for mentioning MLG. The fact that the tournament is wildly popular on this website (the longest LR thread on TL is for MLG), despite the level of play being less than that of GSL, supports my point that the ideal composition of a tournament's players isn't all about player skill. Also: given your lack of reading comprehension and enormous leaps of logic in your recent posts, I would recommend that you stop being so condescending. MLG had three weekends worth of competition, averaging 150-200 pages per thread per tournament. EVERY GSL match day has threads reaching 80-120 pages. Which event do you think has higher total viewership? And all of that DESPITE the time-zone issue.
Are you really going to argue that MLG Dallas isn't wildly popular? I said nothing about higher total viewership, I simply said that MG Dallas was quite popular. Who knows if it is more or less popular than GSL? Only the people running those events, with access to stream statistics, could know that.
The LR thread thing was more of a "fun fact" than a sincere argument by me, but let's look at the numbers. Code S groups C + D (with Nada and Jinro), 11 games televised. 160 pages. MLG Dallas day 2, 26 games televised, 446 pages.
So. About the same game-to-page ratio.
|
On March 16 2011 11:01 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:57 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:53 motbob wrote:On March 16 2011 10:47 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:36 motbob wrote:
All this talk about race and xenophobia reminds me of when people bring up the subject of antisemitism whenever Israel's policies are criticized. Stop it. There is a real element of both. How else do you explain people describing Korean players as boring, homogeneous, and having and unfair advantage due to 'lack of real-life commitments'? How do you explain people who prefer watching 'white' players over Koreans despite the fact a player's ethnicity has no direct relationship with his play-style? The truth of the matter is that people aren't complaining about EU players being allowed in the NASL at all. If the consensus is that EU players are better than NA players, why aren't people levying the same complaint about them? That fact alone betrays their implicit admission of prejudice against Korean players. If this sentiment is the face of Western E-Sports, I want no part of it and wish it to fail. Does overwhelming bias in favor of players like Idra and Jinro when they play in GSL imply racism? People naturally get more excited about players that speak their language and interact with their community. It has nothing to do with racism. The whole reason that Idra and Jinro had just huge viewer numbers is because they the only foreigners playing among the best competition in the world. Under your logic, MLG would be assumed to be 100 times more popular because it's ALL foreigners. That is obviously not the case. Are you someone who has difficulty looking at things in context? Thank you for mentioning MLG. The fact that the tournament is wildly popular on this website (the longest LR thread on TL is for MLG), despite the level of play being less than that of GSL, supports my point that the ideal composition of a tournament's players isn't all about player skill. Also: given your lack of reading comprehension and enormous leaps of logic in your recent posts, I would recommend that you stop being so condescending.
I think the Korean interest in NASL is the prize pool more than anything else.
|
having top Koreans in NASL seems dumb. we may as well just watch GSL at that point. I think the NASL is a cool idea because it's North American players. it's dudes you can see streaming and posting on Teamliquid. guys you might live 20 minutes from. people you may have even met at some LAN or something. people you can relate to. that makes it interesting to me, so I wouldn't really care if it wasn't top notch gameplay. most people probably wouldn't even be able to tell the difference anyways.
|
On March 16 2011 11:10 bLuR wrote:
The poll is outrageous, inviting the best koreans "even if it means having few na/eu players" completely destroys the purpose of the NASL. GSL is for all the top koreans, Invite a select few to raise the skill cap of the NASL while advancing esports outside of korea by actually having NA/EU players playing, and being able to show off their skill.
I had paragraphs all written up, but this just about sums up my opinion.
People are going to find fault in the NASL regardless of what they do.
|
I want (or don't want) several things:
I don't want to watch the GSL in North America. If I wanted to watch the top level Korean play, I would watch GSL. I don't want to watch that, I want to watch and see how various foreign players stack up against each other.
I don't want the top five of the NASL to be MVP, Nestea, MC, MKP, July.
I do want to see the highest level of foreign competition. I want to see the foreign seen evolve and play out. I want to see which players rise to the top, who are legend killers, and who remains season after season.
I also don't want to just lock Korean out entirely. This eliminates a large portion of the potential fanbase. To this end I think that:
A) None of the first 50 invites should Koreans (or chinese). Let the scene get settled first, before we open it up.
B) That being a member of Code A or Code S GSL will automatically disqualify you from entering NASL.
C) That players can't just "quit" GSL to go to the easier grounds of NASL. The exception to this being foreign players (for obvious reasons)
D) Players who get knocked out of Code A, or fail to qualify for it to begin with, may open the NASL open tournament, and the next seasons qualififers.
Basically, unlike an alarming large amount of TL, I don't want to watch the highest level of Korean play dominate the foreign scene, just so that NASL has the best possible skillpool of players. The Korean scene has the GSL, and if I wanted to watch it, I would. Instead I want to watch the foreign scene devlop and play out. I want to watch fun starcraft, AS WELL AS the development of the foreign scene.
|
motbob
United States12546 Posts
On March 16 2011 11:08 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 11:05 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 11:01 motbob wrote:On March 16 2011 10:57 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:53 motbob wrote:On March 16 2011 10:47 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:36 motbob wrote:
All this talk about race and xenophobia reminds me of when people bring up the subject of antisemitism whenever Israel's policies are criticized. Stop it. There is a real element of both. How else do you explain people describing Korean players as boring, homogeneous, and having and unfair advantage due to 'lack of real-life commitments'? How do you explain people who prefer watching 'white' players over Koreans despite the fact a player's ethnicity has no direct relationship with his play-style? The truth of the matter is that people aren't complaining about EU players being allowed in the NASL at all. If the consensus is that EU players are better than NA players, why aren't people levying the same complaint about them? That fact alone betrays their implicit admission of prejudice against Korean players. If this sentiment is the face of Western E-Sports, I want no part of it and wish it to fail. Does overwhelming bias in favor of players like Idra and Jinro when they play in GSL imply racism? People naturally get more excited about players that speak their language and interact with their community. It has nothing to do with racism. The whole reason that Idra and Jinro had just huge viewer numbers is because they the only foreigners playing among the best competition in the world. Under your logic, MLG would be assumed to be 100 times more popular because it's ALL foreigners. That is obviously not the case. Are you someone who has difficulty looking at things in context? Thank you for mentioning MLG. The fact that the tournament is wildly popular on this website (the longest LR thread on TL is for MLG), despite the level of play being less than that of GSL, supports my point that the ideal composition of a tournament's players isn't all about player skill. Also: given your lack of reading comprehension and enormous leaps of logic in your recent posts, I would recommend that you stop being so condescending. MLG had three weekends worth of competition, averaging 150-200 pages per thread per tournament. EVERY GSL match day has threads reaching 80-120 pages. Which event do you think has higher total viewership? And all of that DESPITE the time-zone issue. Also, wasn't motbob the same guy who was saying TL wasn't representative of gamers as a whole? why use a TL thread statistic then?
Um. What statistic would you rather I use?
|
On March 16 2011 11:05 Ghost-z wrote:
So we should invite all the code S players and change the NASL name to GSL 2.0?
Invite some Koreans, Invite some Americans, Invite some Europeans, and Invite some SEA players.
If NASL gets a well rounded player base like I listed above they will be more "global" than the GSL
I don't want to see this loaded with 30 Koreans, 30 Americans, or 30 Europeans. I want a well balanced resume of players from around the globe.
No, like i say, its more because of what Pokebunny said that NASL should not allow the Startale players play even when they apply. He poke fun of their english and their character. This provokes the community to say they rather have "the best koreans" to play and how it is racism. We were fine limiting korean as long as they summit their NASL video on time. Pokebunny did not think even that should they be allow in.
|
On March 16 2011 10:55 Hollywise wrote:
Ban Koreans.
Just cause if you wanna watch Koreans you can watch GSL.
I`d better enjoy a total foreigner competition with the top foreinger personalities than watching foreinger getting smashed by code-a n00bs.
... if code a players are noobs and are smashing foreigners, what does that make foreigners -.-
I guess you're just trolling.
|
On March 16 2011 11:10 bLuR wrote:
The poll is outrageous, inviting the best koreans "even if it means having few na/eu players" completely destroys the purpose of the NASL. GSL is for all the top koreans, Invite a select few to raise the skill cap of the NASL while advancing esports outside of korea by actually having NA/EU players playing, and being able to show off their skill.
GSL is for anybody, and NASL is for the best. What are you trying to accomplish by having WORSE players? Will people actually care if people show off their skill if they're only showing it off against relatively sub-par players?
Honestly, the very idea that you would bar people just because of their ethnicity is ridiculous. Everybody would be destroyed by, say, Jinro, but that's okay because he's not Korean?
The purpose of the NASL is not to completely shut out everybody so North America has its own private playground. It's to bring the top players to America, providing an opportunity for people to play in a prestigious tournament without traveling to Korea. If allowing Koreans would totally ruin the point of the North American Star League, what the hell would Europeans be doing in it? Check your own logic, unless you're implying that it should be the "NAEUSL" (probably pronounced "nasal").
You don't foster the growth of e-sports in "foreign" places by shutting everybody else out. You do it by bringing everybody else in. This wouldn't even be an argument if people weren't so engrossed in "racial differences", or associating skill by region.
|
On March 16 2011 11:14 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 11:08 DystopiaX wrote:On March 16 2011 11:05 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 11:01 motbob wrote:On March 16 2011 10:57 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:53 motbob wrote:On March 16 2011 10:47 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:36 motbob wrote:
All this talk about race and xenophobia reminds me of when people bring up the subject of antisemitism whenever Israel's policies are criticized. Stop it. There is a real element of both. How else do you explain people describing Korean players as boring, homogeneous, and having and unfair advantage due to 'lack of real-life commitments'? How do you explain people who prefer watching 'white' players over Koreans despite the fact a player's ethnicity has no direct relationship with his play-style? The truth of the matter is that people aren't complaining about EU players being allowed in the NASL at all. If the consensus is that EU players are better than NA players, why aren't people levying the same complaint about them? That fact alone betrays their implicit admission of prejudice against Korean players. If this sentiment is the face of Western E-Sports, I want no part of it and wish it to fail. Does overwhelming bias in favor of players like Idra and Jinro when they play in GSL imply racism? People naturally get more excited about players that speak their language and interact with their community. It has nothing to do with racism. The whole reason that Idra and Jinro had just huge viewer numbers is because they the only foreigners playing among the best competition in the world. Under your logic, MLG would be assumed to be 100 times more popular because it's ALL foreigners. That is obviously not the case. Are you someone who has difficulty looking at things in context? Thank you for mentioning MLG. The fact that the tournament is wildly popular on this website (the longest LR thread on TL is for MLG), despite the level of play being less than that of GSL, supports my point that the ideal composition of a tournament's players isn't all about player skill. Also: given your lack of reading comprehension and enormous leaps of logic in your recent posts, I would recommend that you stop being so condescending. MLG had three weekends worth of competition, averaging 150-200 pages per thread per tournament. EVERY GSL match day has threads reaching 80-120 pages. Which event do you think has higher total viewership? And all of that DESPITE the time-zone issue. Also, wasn't motbob the same guy who was saying TL wasn't representative of gamers as a whole? why use a TL thread statistic then? Um. What statistic would you rather I use?
The one that doesn't conflict with a refutation of a previous, opposing argument?
|
On March 16 2011 11:14 ChoRds wrote:
having top Koreans in NASL seems dumb. we may as well just watch GSL at that point. I think the NASL is a cool idea because it's North American players. it's dudes you can see streaming and posting on Teamliquid. guys you might live 20 minutes from. people you may have even met at some LAN or something. people you can relate to. that makes it interesting to me, so I wouldn't really care if it wasn't top notch gameplay. most people probably wouldn't even be able to tell the difference anyways.
this imo, is a good representation of how casuals want to see the NASL.
|
for a competition that has been as hyped as this one has, a schedule filled with only foreigners would be downright disapointing.
|
On March 16 2011 11:17 mufin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 11:14 ChoRds wrote:
having top Koreans in NASL seems dumb. we may as well just watch GSL at that point. I think the NASL is a cool idea because it's North American players. it's dudes you can see streaming and posting on Teamliquid. guys you might live 20 minutes from. people you may have even met at some LAN or something. people you can relate to. that makes it interesting to me, so I wouldn't really care if it wasn't top notch gameplay. most people probably wouldn't even be able to tell the difference anyways. this imo, is a good representation of how casuals want to see the NASL.
So the GSL should lock out foreigners cause Korean people will only identify more from Korean people?
Ultimately what it comes down to is whether you want the best players playing or you want to watch players speak in english for 30 second stretches.
|
people wanna see the best players. the poll speaks for itself and people against it choose to ignore it. If there's such a big tournament in north america, im sure it will grow no matter whos in it. It will be easier to go to for the western world since everyone speaks english. this will help motivate us to get better and become great and big as korea. even if there are koreans players winning it.
|
I wouldn't watch or even follow the NASL if there were no Koreans in it.
In the BW days people would have done anything to have a Korean, yet alone Koreans, in their tournament. And now people don't want them? I am ashamed.
They are too good! They would dominate! It's called the North American Star League!
el o el
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
