Khaydarin amulet analysis - Page 27

On March 03 2011 08:06 Kazang wrote:
I don't get why this is even a discussion, the OP points out the reason why Blizzard has decided to remove it.

It doesn't really matter if poeple think it's the wrong decision based on how much HT are used. The logic in the OP that is quite obviously the reasoning behind the change, and cannot be argued with. If HT are under or overused is irrelevant to the fact that Blizzard has decided(and logically so) that KA was "imbalanced" when it came to comparison with what the other 2 races have.

The other thing is that from the moment you decide to make a HT to when it can storm (45 seconds) is still less with 1.3 than what it was in BW (50 seconds build time and 20 ish seconds to get enough energy to storm) and HT did not have any abilty they could use as soon as they were availble in BW they were actually useless until 70 seconds after a player decided to make one, unless morphed into a archon.
HT were not a useless unit in BW just because you couldn't warp them in anywhere on the map ready to storm instantly.
Suddenly in SC2 they are going to be useless and never used? Please......


Removing KA should be seen as a bug fix more than anything else, it was/is a oversight in design and a unitended result of the warpgate mechanic.

On March 03 2011 08:06 Kazang wrote:
I don't get why this is even a discussion, the OP points out the reason why Blizzard has decided to remove it.

Removing KA should be seen as a bug fix more than anything else, it was/is a oversight in design and a unitended result of the warpgate mechanic.

On March 03 2011 06:39 FabledIntegral wrote:


All... the... fucking... time... are you kidding? HT you build as you need. Ghosts, you produce too many and you've fucked up because you have less marauders and spent 150/150 on a unit that is essentially USELESS (as after the EMP's go off, ghosts are a much less than ideal fighting unit, unlike HT whereas you can storm again, and again, and again with the more you have), don't build enough and you're going to get rolled. Same shit with infestors. Too many and you're going to get rolled.

With ghosts, let's say you do build the optimal amount, and they get feedbacked... FUCK go back to your barracks and cancel the marauders building and try to get out a ghost.

When you're toss? Oh, lemme chrono boost mah warpgates and insta-warp in some HT right where I need them on the battlefield, while warping my existing HT into archons. I'd be fine with amulet if HT weren't able to be warped in and had to be produced from the gateway instead.


Here's the main flaw with the production time thing you guys keep speaking of. The ONLY situation where it's equal is when you realize you need an HT, and you JUST warped in something else. In all other situations, the time at which you can acquire your HT is significantly less. As with my example above, if I need ghosts in a situation and don't have them, I have to go to my rax, see a marauder half built, CANCEL it, then start building the ghost from scratch, causing massive inefficiencies from my barracks production. With an HT, if you had warped in a stalker, and the cooldown is half done, you only half to wait half a cooldown for the stalker, and zero inefficiency is caused. You get the HT out much quicker than I can get out my ghost. Considering if you really need the HT, you can chronoboost it to get it out even faster by reducing the 50% remaining cooldown, then you can warp the HT in anywhere you want, you're getting that HT INSANELY fast. If I don't want to have inefficiency as Terran, I have to let my marauder finish, then build the ghost after, delaying it even further, valuable time I don't have.



You can always tell extremely mediocre Protoss players when they give this response.

On March 03 2011 07:38 tehemperorer wrote:

1. Yes, I am really comparing two utility units, one of which you seem to think is only good in timing attacks
2. Actually, using certain units or tech in timing windows to exploit teching or weak unit compositions between tech transitions is related to how it's used in a standard game, that's what a timing attack is
3. Having a ghost on the field before High Templar means that your build dictated it. Terrans don't build ghost academies early on and then never produce a single ghost until they see HT, since Immortals are also pretty susceptible to EMP and it makes sense to build ghosts against Protoss.

Also, you really need to re-evaluate your definition of the word "all-in." I hope you know something like a 4-gate isn't all in at all until you've passed the 8th or 9th minute without expanding and have no other option but to continue with it until you lose or he loses...

Please forgive me if I sound elitist or arrogant in asking this, but what league/points are you? It really helps when trying to defend a point when I know how to tailor my responses without sounding insulting to someone who has credentials to back up the points they make.

On March 03 2011 08:15 Barca wrote:


I hope you realize that they said something similar to this on State of the Game awhile back. So apparently Nony and iNcontrol are extremely mediocre too, eh?

I think you missed the point anyways. Bio Ball > Gateway units at Tier 1. Bio Ball >>> Gateway units at Tier 2. Gateway units > Bio Ball at Tier 3.

Ever wonder why Zerg players don't complain about Temps being imbalanced against Zerglings? Because they're man enough to stop making Tier 1 units. Oh, and Templars demolish Zerglings. Maybe if Blizzard would nerf Marines Terrans would stop falling back on them like a crutch and start playing the game.

I'm so fed up with Terrans complaining about storm; you have control of the entire damn game until 15 minutes. The Protoss must play reactionary, and many Protosses lose in these first 15 minutes to stupid Terran pushes. Then after 15 minutes YOU must play reactionary and the Protoss has the advantage and Terran players whine and whine and whine. Even though, of course, since the Terran player has the immediate advantage, the game rarely lasts longer than 15 minutes.

Ridiculous. You Terrans are so spoiled. Learn to go mech, it's becoming more and more viable and storm is barely effective against it. Hell, go ghost/mech so you can still use your barracks from all your early bio. Early bio pressure into FE into ghost/mech? There you go.

On March 03 2011 08:10 da_head wrote:

Since when has every decision blizzard made been correct? Also are you forgetting how much better storm was in bw? How about how hard/infrequently emp was used? (until later game) Or how there was no collosus to fall back on (as a superior choice)?

On March 03 2011 08:17 FabledIntegral wrote:


1. I never stated it was only good in timing attacks. I am fully aware the Ghost is a vital unit to the Terran arsenal vs Protoss.

2. It is not related to the effectiveness of the unit once said timing window has passed. It only affects how you'd attempt to balance or change the unit. You can not bring into the discussion of how a TvP lategame is playing out by responding with the fact that Terran could have done an early game timing attack with Ghosts. The only thing you can mention is that a standard Protoss build has to account for the fact it is susceptible to that timing attack, and had to possibly alter their build order to account for it (thus making it less optimal than if that wasn't a vulnerable to the timing attack). But the effectiveness of the ghost itself in standard play has not been altered.

In other words, while the threat of an army game Ghost attack might force Protoss to alter it's play, it does not intrinsically strengthen the Ghost; the Ghost remains unchanged, it merely strengthens Terran's ability in TvP overall.

3. A 4-gate opener is either going to be all-in or simply extremely inefficient. You're either doing the all-in build, or you're instead noticably delaying your expansion from a 3gate expand and setting yourself up to be incredibly weak against a timing attack. This is not the case with the Ghost timing attack simply because you are committed to doing it - you've already built the Ghost Academy, the Ghost, etc.

It does not make sense to build Ghosts vs Robo tech unless they skipped Colossus entirely and went pure immortal, which means they will eventually go Templar tech. Thus, that is the reason you're going Ghosts, Templar not Immortals. Every Terran knows this. If they went Colossus your army WILL get rolled and that is why it's a build that demands you either do considerable amount of damage to the Protoss or you kill him. You cannot do the Ghost timing attack, not do any damage, and turn around and walk away if the Protoss was going Colossus without being incredibly far behind, near the threshold of not being viable to comeback without the Protoss effing up.

4. I switched to Zerg lately, but a little over a week ago I was still Terran around 3450 Masters. Which translates to around 3500 now if you include bonus pool inflation?

On March 03 2011 08:15 tehemperorer wrote:

1. Because the OPs logic is flawed, read the posts.
2. That last paragraph is insulting to players who have torn their hair out trying to find efficient unit compositions that handle super common bio.
3. I will say it again because I know you're not reading all this: The OP's post fails to account for so many things that its conclusion is too simple in relation to the scope of the actual issue.

On March 03 2011 08:29 Kazang wrote:


No i'm pointing out that having to wait to get energy to storm isn't the end of the world.
And that people can cry all they want but at the end of the day it's not going to make much difference as it's Blizzards choice, and really is quite logical.
Have some faith in what they what they are doing, becasue they have done a amazing job so far.

If you really want to a make a difference, go play on the PTR and use HT, give them real play testing to base their changes on.


I don't see how having an alterantive to HT is a bad thing either, HT do more than just aoe damage. Feedback is one of the best abilities in the game against terran armies

On March 03 2011 08:29 tehemperorer wrote:

This is the problem that I find with Terrans argument: everything you said relates mostly to the use of storm and not the Khaydarin Amulet. The fact that I can have colossi and HT in the same army has nothing to do with the KA. The math that was presented in the OP relates to the use of the KA, and came to the conclusion that HT somehow have storm capabilities earlier than any of the other race's casters, which is completely untrue.

Like I said before, if the gripe is with storm, why are they moving to get rid of the amulet? If the problem is warping in and instant storming on a mineral line, why is the race with sensor towers complaining? If the problem is being able to warp in HT to finish off the remaining forces right after a battle is basically won for the Protoss player, why is that even a consideration? If the problem is having a drop nullified by a single HT, then the units in the dropship should be units that do well against storm, not pure marines. The point is that removing the KA is a very messy and short-sighted way to solve the apparent problems in the PvT matchup.

On March 03 2011 08:35 Sek-Kuar wrote:



You know, you spend so much time commenting everything that my logic is flawed, but you have never said single argument other than:

1) Theorycrafting in general
2) Theorycrafting about races you dont play
3) Theorycrafting how hard your race is

I simply suggest you to join chat channel "Theorycrafting for Bronze Masters" I heard they are live on every realm.

If I say that 49,5 seconds is closer to 45 seconds rather than 5 seconds to 45 seconds, its either true or prove Im wrong. But trying to imply that I said something I didnt to use it as argument against comparing two numbers is just stupid, and you better join that chat channel I suggested.

On March 03 2011 08:24 FabledIntegral wrote:


Zerg players don't complain as much about HT because they're complaining about Voidray Colossus, lmao. If you also cannot see the difference between Zerglings, an extremely fast unit that engages in melee combat and thus is always moving out of the storms, and when they are stationary that means you're most likely storming some of your own units as well, you're ridiculous.

Cool that you're sick of Terran players complaining about storm, and then come back with an irrelevant point about Terran early game. Nice job. I wasn't aware we were discussing overall balance of the matchup. Oh, that's right, we aren't.

What's more ridiculous is that you are saying I'm some spoiled Terran, while I hovered around rank ~120-150 constantly with Zerg in the Top 200 for the first 4 months of the game, then when I played Terran for the recent 3, I only hovered around ~300-350. And in case you were wondering why the switch occurred, I switched the day Patch 1.2 came out and buffed Zerg. But no no, keep coming with irrelevant, moronic accusations.

Last, LOL another random poster ending their post with "go mech." LOLOL.