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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 03 2011 04:45 Reptilia wrote:
i dont understund.
Do protoss users think the amulet was balanced (pre 1.3)?
i mean how op is having a huge bio and beating ur huge army of gateway+collossus and the protoss just warps a couple ht and instantly destroy your army even tho u won a huge army battle.
Thats nonsense
However, maybe an upgrade that gives 13 extra starting energy would be good
If I have two tier 3 tech paths, why are you still on 1.5? That's nonsense... Would that work in War3? Switch to mech and stop complaining about how your tier 1.5 melts to a more expensive and time consuming tier 3 tech
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On March 03 2011 03:48 da_head wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 02:27 TimeSpiral wrote:On March 03 2011 01:45 da_head wrote:On March 03 2011 00:05 TimeSpiral wrote:
lmfao. every single time i see you post, i expect terran tears, and you never fail to dissapoint. I love how you begin off comparing gateway units to barracks, then you throw in collosus. Do you mind me asking what's your 1v1 rank/points? I've searced up sc2ranks.com (your name TimeSpiral) and have only found a bronze and platinum player, which makes me worried (but not surprised). Yeah, most people perceive opinions and discussion as "QQ", which is fine. W/e. I don't mind at all. The accusations are, 99.99% of the time from the people who play on the other side of the argument. So, instead of engaging, they flame. No biggie. I'm ranked in the Platinum League but probably play at a low 2300 pt Diamond level. I make this information public in my TL profile. Did you not check there? My team leagues are pretty rofl. Most of the time I'm playing AT with my buddies who are copper, or worse, so we don't do well at all. Why would my ranking worry you?I don't ladder nearly as much as I'd like to. And recently, due to real life issues, I've been unable to ladder for almost a full week!! I'm itchin' pretty bad. I'm not a pro, or master level player by any means, but I absolutely understand the game and have respectable execution skills. I play protoss as my main (3200 master) so i'm obviously biased in that regards, but in all team games i play random and have sufficient experience with the other 2 races (prob low to mid diamond level i would say). I have nothing against healthy discussion or debate but every post you have made reeks of a strong bias towards protoss in general. The reason why your rank worries me (low diamond is still lol worthy no offense), is that time and time again the pros have expressed that if you're not playing at a high level, your opinions are usually incorrect or misinformed. Now, that doesn't go to say that just because your not master rank, everything you say is out right wrong, but when you come in and say shit like "It's wild but there are actually Myths about this game and how it works. Protoss insists that the Gateway tech tree is worse than the Barracks. ", it makes you look pretty foolish. It IS fact that gateway units are the least cost effective tier 1 units out of all 3 races (i think it was proven that equal resource of scvs beats equal resource of stalkers lolol). However of course, it's foolish to judge sc in a vacuum because there are many circumstances and situations that validate certain asepcts of the game and allow the races to be unique but equal at the same time. However, it CAN NOT be denied that without high templars or collosus, gateway units WILL be destroyed by any and all combination of terran infantry (exceptions with fast upgrades for toss, and certain timing windows of 4 gate and 6 gate all-in ish moves of course). EDIT: also to the poster below me, fuckin +1 to everything he said.
Fair enough.
I'm certainly not above looking foolish, especially when i comes to SC2. We all rage. We all get roflstomped, and we've all said - "F this motherF-ing [INSERT RACE/INSERT UNIT]" from time to time (generally when losing). I get that, and so should you.
And to be fair I hate Zerg as much as I hate Protoss :D
So, with all that said, we all have beliefs and opinions about this game that are incorrect. Even the pros. They are just people, and often times very young people. I'm no fool, they are obviously a billion times better than me (and you) but even they make ridiculous claims and remarks from time to time (cough, IMBALANCED, cough, State of the Game, cough).
I love all those guys, but their opinions are not auto-canon.
So if I see a post, and I have an opinion, I will try to layout my thoughts in the best way possible. Often times I will include diagrams, or math, or lists. I'm not going to hesitate to engage because I cannot devote 8 hours a day to Starcraft 2 (which is the main difference between a Diamond and Masters player - time = execution).
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Not a protoss player in the least, but has Hallucinate been discussed as a method for scouting drops in the late game?
Sentries are usually a big part of most any protoss composition. Wouldn't the next logical step be using hallucination? With 3-4 bases, it can be chronoboosted out quickly and 100/100 is not a huge investment. Obviously it can't be used all the time because of its 60 second lifespan and its 100 energy requirement, but in combination with observers, an army, and scouting probes it would seem like a valuable spell to have out during a lull in the game. Heck its a multipupose spell you can even use it to bolster your main army.
Not its not the perfect solution. But Starcraft shouldn't always be about finding the perfect hard counter. That's boring.
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You certainly do not need to devote 8 hours a day to Starcraft to make it to masters, there are people in masters with less than 50 games.
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Russian Federation30 Posts
tehemperorer, I agree with ya. Translated your post to our russian forum. Is there a place we could sign up to stop this stupid nerf? if blizzard is gonna change this, I'll think about leaving the game, that only nurf my race, Im sick of this.
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On March 03 2011 05:00 Dommk wrote:
You certainly do not need to devote 8 hours a day to Starcraft to make it to masters, there are people in masters with less than 50 games.
They are called Smurfs, lol ;P
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On March 02 2011 08:15 Stevelisk wrote:
Looking at the typical pro-level function of templars, they are usually warped in for a storm, and then turned into archons. They're one-shot units used to deal quick aoe damage during a battle. I agree with Blizzard in that they are extremely powerful to deal with, as both their storm and feedback spells are incredibly useful, however, removing the amulet upgrade is a bit over-dramatic.
I think they should keep the amulet, but increase the cost of storm to 80 or 85. Templars will still serve their function the same way as they currently do, but they will need to be warped at least somewhat prior to engagement.
This is basically what I beg for.
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I don't get why people are telling terran to use mech when obviously its a real tough to go down that tech path as terran vs protoss when protoss chargelots, blink stalkers, phoenixes, immortals pretty much rape mech units... I think people are discouraged from using mech because of it's immobility and cost ineffectiveness compared to 3m and maybe a dash of thors ravens banshees here and there
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United States7483 Posts
On March 03 2011 05:08 Raid wrote:
I don't get why people are telling terran to use mech when obviously its a real tough to go down that tech path as terran vs protoss when protoss chargelots, blink stalkers, phoenixes, immortals pretty much rape mech units... I think people are discouraged from using mech because of it's immobility and cost ineffectiveness compared to 3m and maybe a dash of thors ravens banshees here and there
People are telling terran to go mech because 1) it's actually very good, 2) it doesn't die to colossus or high templar as easily as bio does (what do you know, mid-end game tech fares better vs end game tech of another race than your entry tech units? WOAH), 3) it shows off the terran's skill better than bio play, 4) it makes for more entertaining games and 5) Mech is badass.
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On March 03 2011 05:08 Raid wrote:
I don't get why people are telling terran to use mech when obviously its a real tough to go down that tech path as terran vs protoss when protoss chargelots, blink stalkers, phoenixes, immortals pretty much rape mech units... I think people are discouraged from using mech because of it's immobility and cost ineffectiveness compared to 3m and maybe a dash of thors ravens banshees here and there
yeah now realize that protoss teching to either Colossus or HT is the same
while your Main strategy is Bio all game long.
Bio is too strong, well actually not even to strong, but to easy to play compared your own options may be, of course Mech has its weakness, but it also has it's advantages, and those get neglected by those Terran=bio only viable , terrans players.
Whitera yesterday lost to Pure Mech, Mass Tanks / Thors.
Mech is strong, jinro proved that are all ready, but it needs more effort (or attention) than standard Bio player can provide. May be the playstyle doesn't suit your aggressiv style, but that doesn't change the fact that it works.
Why don't you see P Players crying all the day, that our "bio"(=Gateways) dies badly against anything Z/T can throw up against them?
Because P Players use their options at least (teching other units), while many terrans again dismiss Mech.
Robo is the same as Mech, slow/immobile units, can't even shoot air, good against Armor, Splash dmg units.
why don't P cry all day that Robo is too immobile?
Why should P mix
Zealots/Sentry/Stalkers/Warp-Prism/HT / Immo / Colossus / Air
and you see that in P play in almost every game that goes longer than 10 mins.
why should Terran survive with just going like 3 units never techswitching.
Marine Marauder Medivacs all game long
why should Zerg survive with just going:
mass Roach / Hydra ?
sooner or later you have to make a transition into other units.
You lose because you didn't adapt and played worse and not because something is overpowered in most cases and this holds true even for Diamond or Masters Lvl.
Overpowered would be something that if i tell you that i go a certain "route" and you have the possibility to scout and react properly to counter it and still lose badly. And this at least for Terran is absolutly doable since you have the most flexibel techtree and every tools for that job of all races.(Reaper, Scan, Ghosts, Reactors)
Voidrays / Colossus may be overpowered in PvZ, but that is still in discussion and not even certain, there are bound to be found strategys work against it. Like Mass Mutalisk was OP months ago and every P cried. But later players find Ideas that work.
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On March 03 2011 05:08 Raid wrote:
I don't get why people are telling terran to use mech when obviously its a real tough to go down that tech path as terran vs protoss when protoss chargelots, blink stalkers, phoenixes, immortals pretty much rape mech units... I think people are discouraged from using mech because of it's immobility and cost ineffectiveness compared to 3m and maybe a dash of thors ravens banshees here and there
Sarans used Mech against White-ra yesterday at ESL, he said he just copied Jinros build and didn't even prepare for it, probably one of the most one sided games near the end, virtually impossible for white-ra to break through. White-ra said in the interview that he wasn't sure how to stop it, something about transitioning into air but it was too late
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I don't know maybe I am just too use to bw style mech, its just how horrid mech anti-air is but i think I'll give mech a try since tvp is my least favorite matchup atm because of how boring and predictable it is.
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On March 03 2011 05:00 mynhauzen wrote:
tehemperorer, I agree with ya. Translated your post to our russian forum. Is there a place we could sign up to stop this stupid nerf? if blizzard is gonna change this, I'll think about leaving the game, that only nurf my race, Im sick of this.
Thanks for translating it! I'm not sure if there's a specific place to go, but talking about it here I think helps.
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On March 03 2011 05:26 Raid wrote:
I don't know maybe I am just too use to bw style mech, its just how horrid mech anti-air is but i think I'll give mech a try since tvp is my least favorite matchup atm because of how boring and predictable it is.
Mech involves mostly thors and tank-mode tanks in my experience. Add a few vikings and you have a long range AA force, since the Thors outrange even the vikings in ground to air volleys (range 10?). Since Terran can defend really well, it's hard to get any hits in even with warpstorming High Templar.
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by nature, this game's always going to be dependant on the context of each individual game so balance talk is rarely justified
on the subject, i just want to say
1, ghosts and infestors aren't the backbone of terran/zerg armies, while ht's are
this is the central point
and extra points on which one can argue endlessly
2. ht's can't cloak or burrow move
3. ht's require 2 gas heavy upgrades to be useful, while infestors require 1, and ghosts none
4. khaydarin fulfills a necessary niche in lacking toss mobility
5. khaydarin takes considerably longer to research than the other 2 energy boost upgrades
6. big army vs. big army, one emp can mean the game easily vs. the caster dependent toss. one storm can't win you a game unless in very specific situations
not to go into balance discussions, just putting up some points to be taken into consideration
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On March 03 2011 05:18 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 05:08 Raid wrote:
I don't get why people are telling terran to use mech when obviously its a real tough to go down that tech path as terran vs protoss when protoss chargelots, blink stalkers, phoenixes, immortals pretty much rape mech units... I think people are discouraged from using mech because of it's immobility and cost ineffectiveness compared to 3m and maybe a dash of thors ravens banshees here and there why don't P cry all day that Robo is too immobile?
To be fair, we kinda do whine that robo is immobile. In fact, that's probably why most Protoss (including myself) in this thread are arguing - our robo army is too slow to fend off drops, and our gateway is too weak.
TBH, I don't see how this affects storm drops at all. It's pretty easy to summon a templar and carry him over in a warp prism.
The only real thing it effects (offensively) is the ability to warp in new Templar to keep storming at the battle. Defensively, it effects the ability to get rid of drops quickly/efficiently.
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I hate using collossus and this will break ht, Also i hate cheesing and T1 gets fucking owned. Im gonna quit playing if this goes through. Hopefully the expansions dont suck.
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On March 03 2011 05:18 freetgy wrote:
Voidrays / Colossus may be overpowered in PvZ, but that is still in discussion and not even certain, there are bound to be found strategys work against it. Like Mass Mutalisk was OP months ago and every P cried. But later players find Ideas that work.
And then 1.3 took away the idea that worked.
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Protoss telling Terran to go mech: my thoughts
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I hear it all the time, that Terran cannot stay on Barracks units all game long (even when there are medivacs, ravens, and banshees on the field), yet Pros have a tendency to stay on Rax and play a really harassed-based Tempo game.
Many Protoss players then ridicule the Terran players and tell them choose "Mech builds" while peppering in insults about it being harder and that's why we don't do it, or there is less a+clicking, or some other "wat umad" comment. And you wonder why Terran players are Protoss-bitter? Lol.
Mech is not synergistic with Barracks units to the same degree Robo tech is synergistic with Gateway tech. In my opinion, Gateway/Templar/Robo is one of the most symbiotic tech-combinations you can have.
Protoss rarely "goes Robo" but more generally goes "Gateway + Robo" then in later stages of the game adds in the rest of the tech tree.
The Colossus essentially fills the role of a Siege Tech in a Terran mech build but gains the benefit of doing arc-AoE damage, shooting twice as fast, does not cause friendly fire damage, does not block it's own units, gains vision of the high ground, is a cliff-walker, and has a medium movement speed.
The Siege Tank cannot move in Siege Mode, has a massive range, but needs a spotter, and causes friendly fire damage that obliterates barracks armies. In tank mode its range is significantly reduced and no longer does AoE damage. Now granted, you can have two Siege Tanks for every one Colossus, so that's a pretty big deal.
The point I'm trying to make is that our Factory does not mesh as well with our Barracks nearly as well as your Robo meshes with the Gateway. It's actually not even close. Heck, the Robo Fac even produces a portable psi-field for your warpgates.
All of our "big scary units" are single-target DPS units. I just don't think Protoss realize how good they have it with the Colossus.
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Khaydarin Amulet: +50% energy regen rate for High Templar
Now we get faster storms, but not insta-storms, and more reason to keep HT around instead of merging them into Archons.
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EPT
