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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 03 2011 02:27 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 01:45 da_head wrote:On March 03 2011 00:05 TimeSpiral wrote:
lmfao. every single time i see you post, i expect terran tears, and you never fail to dissapoint. I love how you begin off comparing gateway units to barracks, then you throw in collosus. Do you mind me asking what's your 1v1 rank/points? I've searced up sc2ranks.com (your name TimeSpiral) and have only found a bronze and platinum player, which makes me worried (but not surprised). Yeah, most people perceive opinions and discussion as "QQ", which is fine. W/e. I don't mind at all. The accusations are, 99.99% of the time from the people who play on the other side of the argument. So, instead of engaging, they flame. No biggie. I'm ranked in the Platinum League but probably play at a low 2300 pt Diamond level. I make this information public in my TL profile. Did you not check there? My team leagues are pretty rofl. Most of the time I'm playing AT with my buddies who are copper, or worse, so we don't do well at all. Why would my ranking worry you?I don't ladder nearly as much as I'd like to. And recently, due to real life issues, I've been unable to ladder for almost a full week!! I'm itchin' pretty bad. I'm not a pro, or master level player by any means, but I absolutely understand the game and have respectable execution skills.
He must says that because your point of view is realy biased. And imo, you need to be at least on master league to speak about (im)balance.
You compare gateway (w/ ht-dt that are t3) vs barrack... wat ? Your post makes no sense at all
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Remove Amulet - Ok, make vikings weaker.
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Still whe i wont go High Templars anymore since it takes to long to use them now imo,rather go collosi now what i even hate because always getting sniped so fast
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Don't Instant storms kinda balance out DPS against Terran? Lets say a terran and toss army engage and the toss split his HT so not all of them lose their energy and lands a decent storm on the terran army before the army moves out of the way, now each army is about halfed but either could still make a push. At this point couldn't the terran army just roll the toss army if the toss used most (if not all) his storms already? Sure ghost can't emp again yet either, even if they were macro'd up while the fight, but the terran DPS in a general fight without casters already destroys the toss DPS. So for the amount of time it would take for the new warped in HT to get 75 energy couldn't the terran just roll the toss?
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On March 03 2011 02:27 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 01:45 da_head wrote:On March 03 2011 00:05 TimeSpiral wrote:
lmfao. every single time i see you post, i expect terran tears, and you never fail to dissapoint. I love how you begin off comparing gateway units to barracks, then you throw in collosus. Do you mind me asking what's your 1v1 rank/points? I've searced up sc2ranks.com (your name TimeSpiral) and have only found a bronze and platinum player, which makes me worried (but not surprised). Yeah, most people perceive opinions and discussion as "QQ", which is fine. W/e. I don't mind at all. The accusations are, 99.99% of the time from the people who play on the other side of the argument. So, instead of engaging, they flame. No biggie. I'm ranked in the Platinum League but probably play at a low 2300 pt Diamond level. I make this information public in my TL profile. Did you not check there? My team leagues are pretty rofl. Most of the time I'm playing AT with my buddies who are copper, or worse, so we don't do well at all. Why would my ranking worry you?I don't ladder nearly as much as I'd like to. And recently, due to real life issues, I've been unable to ladder for almost a full week!! I'm itchin' pretty bad. I'm not a pro, or master level player by any means, but I absolutely understand the game and have respectable execution skills.
I play protoss as my main (3200 master) so i'm obviously biased in that regards, but in all team games i play random and have sufficient experience with the other 2 races (prob low to mid diamond level i would say). I have nothing against healthy discussion or debate but every post you have made reeks of a strong bias towards protoss in general. The reason why your rank worries me (low diamond is still lol worthy no offense), is that time and time again the pros have expressed that if you're not playing at a high level, your opinions are usually incorrect or misinformed. Now, that doesn't go to say that just because your not master rank, everything you say is out right wrong, but when you come in and say shit like "It's wild but there are actually Myths about this game and how it works. Protoss insists that the Gateway tech tree is worse than the Barracks. ", it makes you look pretty foolish. It IS fact that gateway units are the least cost effective tier 1 units out of all 3 races (i think it was proven that equal resource of scvs beats equal resource of stalkers lolol). However of course, it's foolish to judge sc in a vacuum because there are many circumstances and situations that validate certain asepcts of the game and allow the races to be unique but equal at the same time. However, it CAN NOT be denied that without high templars or collosus, gateway units WILL be destroyed by any and all combination of terran infantry (exceptions with fast upgrades for toss, and certain timing windows of 4 gate and 6 gate all-in ish moves of course).
EDIT: also to the poster below me, fuckin +1 to everything he said.
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It's stupid how much non masters post here. Let me break it down since I read all 24 pages and most others haven't:
-If you suggest that I have to build cannons to defend drops, you don't know the game, stop posting
-If you suggest that I defend a 10 food drop with 16-18 supply (minimum), you don't know the game, stop posting
-If you think for one damned second that gateway units have a leg up on barracks units, you don't know the game, stop posting
-If you think that warpstorms are too hard to deal with in PvT, then you are ignoring the fact that you have sensor towers coupled with ghosts or vikings to either stop the HT or the WP way before either is deployed
-If you think storm is overpowered against bio, then why remove amulet?
-Change to storm would be more appropriate
-Don't stay on tier 1-1.5 so long, why does P have to tech to deal with tier 1-1.5?
-You want me to split my HT against ghosts? Then you can split your bio against HT
-EMP is instant, storm takes 4 seconds to do 80 damage
-HT move speed is 1.88, marine speed is 2.2fucking5 UNSTIMMED
-You are being healed by a medivac, isn't that great?
-If you are still clinging to the idiotic conclusion that Protoss can get their first HT in 5 seconds which isn't balanced compared to Ghosts or Infestors, please try and consider at what point in the game HT become available to Protoss, and how much later that is compared to the other two races. It makes no sense to talk about warp gates and HT since HT come so much later in the game than ghosts that it's illogical to compare their respective build times. If you're going to compare the two, then add 5 minutes to the first HT build time, sound good?
-If you still say that Protoss should scout more for drops, you should re-evaluate the methods that P has to scout compared to T
-Observers are on a different tech path than HT, meaning there will be a window between the two tech trees that can be exploited
-Realistically, how many observers do you want me to build on, say, Delta Quadrant? 6? How many per base? Now you want me to station 18 supply near each mining base? Tell me, when do I push out?
-If I have to scout more for drops without amulet as P, shouldn't you have to scout more for drops with amulet as T? Who has better scouting methods, P or T? <-- that's rhetoric, if anyone says P, please don't post anymore
The reason why I say stop posting above is because those suggestions or solutions indicate a basic misunderstanding of higher level play, and "stop posting" is a plea to reduce the clutter of the thread. It is in place of me taking the time to describe the unfavorable conditions for Protoss that those ridiculous "solutions" would create in an actual high level game.
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On March 02 2011 04:11 Ponyo wrote:
Storms used on marines without medivacs is super powerful. On the other hand Not really adressing your op, i wonder how you stop mass Banshee now that you can't warp in storm.
jaeh but marines without medivacs arent that many out in lategame pvt ...
i am scared just mass colossi now 
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On March 03 2011 03:34 oNSarcasm wrote:
Don't Instant storms kinda balance out DPS against Terran? Lets say a terran and toss army engage and the toss split his HT so not all of them lose their energy and lands a decent storm on the terran army before the army moves out of the way, now each army is about halfed but either could still make a push. At this point couldn't the terran army just roll the toss army if the toss used most (if not all) his storms already? Sure ghost can't emp again yet either, even if they were macro'd up while the fight, but the terran DPS in a general fight without casters already destroys the toss DPS. So for the amount of time it would take for the new warped in HT to get 75 energy couldn't the terran just roll the toss?
YES, exactly. The P player has to do burst damage against T because of medivacs, that's how HT handle bio better than Colossus. Since there is such a huge window between HT tech and their on field viability, khaydarin amulet acutally balances the fight, not imbalances it (if I can use the term in that manner)
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Seriously +1 to tehemperor, that could not be better said. I was struggling to put it as eloquently as that, but I couldn't. Everything, expressed in that post is dead on!
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idk, after reading it i see some logic in it, but after reading all the comments on this ive also seen some bad... i dont like how it seems protoss have less reasons to tech differently and basically get stuck on colossi gateway bumming all game basically
Honestly, i do not understand why they didnt jsut nerf the ability instead of removing it completely or something of the sort?
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On March 03 2011 03:51 tehemperorer wrote:It's stupid how much non masters post here. Let me break it down since I read all 24 pages and most others haven't: + Show Spoiler +
-If you suggest that I have to build cannons to defend drops, you don't know the game, stop posting
-If you suggest that I defend a 10 food drop with 16-18 supply (minimum), you don't know the game, stop posting
-If you think for one damned second that gateway units have a leg up on barracks units, you don't know the game, stop posting
-If you think that warpstorms are too hard to deal with in PvT, then you are ignoring the fact that you have sensor towers coupled with ghosts or vikings to either stop the HT or the WP way before either is deployed
-If you think storm is overpowered against bio, then why remove amulet?
-Change to storm would be more appropriate
-Don't stay on tier 1-1.5 so long, why does P have to tech to deal with tier 1-1.5?
-You want me to split my HT against ghosts? Then you can split your bio against HT
-EMP is instant, storm takes 4 seconds to do 80 damage
-HT move speed is 1.88, marine speed is 2.2fucking5 UNSTIMMED
-You are being healed by a medivac, isn't that great?
-If you are still clinging to the idiotic conclusion that Protoss can get their first HT in 5 seconds which isn't balanced compared to Ghosts or Infestors, please try and consider at what point in the game HT become available to Protoss, and how much later that is compared to the other two races. It makes no sense to talk about warp gates and HT since HT come so much later in the game than ghosts that it's illogical to compare their respective build times. If you're going to compare the two, then add 5 minutes to the first HT build time, sound good?
-If you still say that Protoss should scout more for drops, you should re-evaluate the methods that P has to scout compared to T
-Observers are on a different tech path than HT, meaning there will be a window between the two tech trees that can be exploited
-Realistically, how many observers do you want me to build on, say, Delta Quadrant? 6? How many per base? Now you want me to station 18 supply near each mining base? Tell me, when do I push out?
-If I have to scout more for drops without amulet as P, shouldn't you have to scout more for drops with amulet as T? Who has better scouting methods, P or T? <-- that's rhetoric, if anyone says P, please don't post anymore
The reason why I say stop posting above is because those suggestions or solutions indicate a basic misunderstanding of higher level play, and "stop posting" is a plea to reduce the clutter of the thread. It is in place of me taking the time to describe the unfavorable conditions for Protoss that those ridiculous "solutions" would create in an actual high level game.
You have pretty much nailed it down. I think that some people are QQ'ing more to the counter arguments made by seemingly blind and narrow minded people. People have to see the greater picture, including build times and the drop/battle scenarios.
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Well a lot of people are saying that Warpgate production rate of HTs is 50 seconds, dont know why, but I still believe its only 45... Can anyone test that?
Well maybe I made than one mistake, havent tested it. I was testing only if you can cancel warp-in by undeploying Warp Prism (or destroying pylon ) to get 100% refund and reset Warpgate.
Anyway I feel kinda sad, how this thread became so theorycraft with Protoss players saying how much they need insta Storms, and T/Z players telling P players how should they play, and vice versa...
This thread is about strong and undeniable evidence that removing KA is good thing that is going to balance casters and at least in future make balancing game easier around fair mechanics. It wasnt fair before, and now when every race will have to think ~50+ sec before using casters, it will be better.
That doesnt mean that it is going to directly balance game, but it is definitelly going to make it better and easier to balance in future.
Now please cut everything not related to purpose of this thread! (Or make your own "Theorycrafting about Khaydarin Amulet")
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I don't think there is any argument against the math that a Protoss has to spend more money to deal with small engagements of bio or harass. Banshees out, leave at least 1 or 2 stalkers in each mineral line. Blueflame drops out, leave a lot of guys near minerals till you are on 3 bases and can afford cannons. Etc. Protoss also have way less harass and poke options for a long time in a typical TvP game. Concussive shell out, no more poking. Zealot drops are fairly weak.
The reverse is true for Terran. I'm not saying it's broken, it's just different. But for instance, Terran wants to defend against Dark templar... one 100 mineral turret at choke may be enough until late 2 base or 3 base+ play. Terran wants to harass, he has like 4 tech options that all have harass elements built in. I think a lot of Terrans don't like Amulet because it's almost the first chance for Protoss to suddenly become mobile, annoying, unpredicatble, and scary.
Personally, I wish Protoss had way MORE ways to be unpredictable and scary earlier in the game. To take away Amulet is to take away so much from the Protoss game.
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On March 03 2011 04:01 Sek-Kuar wrote:Well a lot of people are saying that Warpgate production rate of HTs is 50 seconds, dont know why, but I still believe its only 45... Can anyone test that? Well maybe I made than one mistake, havent tested it. I was testing only if you can cancel warp-in by undeploying Warp Prism (or destroying pylon ) to get 100% refund and reset Warpgate. Anyway I feel kinda sad, how this thread became so theorycraft with Protoss players saying how much they need insta Storms, and T/Z players telling P players how should they play, and vice versa... This thread is about strong and undeniable evidence that removing KA is good thing that is going to balance casters and at least in future make balancing game easier around fair mechanics. It wasnt fair before, and now when every race will have to think ~50+ sec before using casters, it will be better.
That doesnt mean that it is going to directly balance game, but it is definitelly going to make it better and easier to balance in future.Now please cut everything not related to purpose of this thread! (Or make your own "Theorycrafting about Khaydarin Amulet")
Perfect, you are quite right about your analysis of where the thread has gone. I will explain: Removing KA imbalances PvT in favor of T because although you say the first 5 second High Templar made with amulet has 75 energy compared to the ghost and infestor that take 48-50 seconds to reach the same, you neglect to figure in any sort of consideration for the time it takes for that 5 second HT with both amulet and storm to reach the battlefield while maintaining high level macro and a decent standing force to repel any early aggression, typical unit compositions in the PvT matchup where P goes HT tech, resources spent for the Protoss player including minerals, gas, time, and supply, the life expectancy of a HT and its uses post storm, length of timing windows that can be exploited against a HT teching Protoss, the overall unit efficacy comparisons between bio and gateway units supported by HT, the costs in resources and time to achieve robo tech in addition to HT tech, the ease in which HT are countered by T units that appear on the battlefield much earlier (and who are easier to mass, cost less in research, require less tech, and have many more dimensions of use), and an overarching consideration to the PvT metagame and the effects of removing KA with special attention given to simplifying the P tech path in PvT and the repercussions of how many "givens" are allowed to the Terran player if KA was removed.
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+ Show Spoiler +
On March 02 2011 19:27 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
its nice how the grass is always greener and how Ps that never build cannons or have ANYTHING to defend in their base think the warpgate mechanic should make them 100% safe vs drops. its pathetic.
You realize that pure marauder or hellion drops are basically untouched by high templar warpin defense right? Amulet only helps... it doesn't stop AALLLL Terran drops magically. And what if all the warp gates just got used? Wait half a minute to warp stuff in means you lose your base.
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i dont understund.
Do protoss users think the amulet was balanced (pre 1.3)?
i mean how op is having a huge bio and beating ur huge army of gateway+collossus and the protoss just warps a couple ht and instantly destroy your army even tho u won a huge army battle.
Thats nonsense
However, maybe an upgrade that gives 13 extra starting energy would be good
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On March 03 2011 04:01 Sek-Kuar wrote:Well a lot of people are saying that Warpgate production rate of HTs is 50 seconds, dont know why, but I still believe its only 45... Can anyone test that? Well maybe I made than one mistake, havent tested it. I was testing only if you can cancel warp-in by undeploying Warp Prism (or destroying pylon ) to get 100% refund and reset Warpgate. Anyway I feel kinda sad, how this thread became so theorycraft with Protoss players saying how much they need insta Storms, and T/Z players telling P players how should they play, and vice versa... This thread is about strong and undeniable evidence that removing KA is good thing that is going to balance casters and at least in future make balancing game easier around fair mechanics. It wasnt fair before, and now when every race will have to think ~50+ sec before using casters, it will be better.
That doesnt mean that it is going to directly balance game, but it is definitelly going to make it better and easier to balance in future.Now please cut everything not related to purpose of this thread! (Or make your own "Theorycrafting about Khaydarin Amulet")
I think the problem is you are using the word "balanced" instead of "the same". People are talking about the balance of how it affects the game in general. You are of course correct that it would be "the same", that neither means it would be better or balanced (which is what people are talking about).
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On March 02 2011 04:29 jacobmarlow wrote:
Removing the HT will make Protoss very underpowered.
Reasons why
1. Unlike ghosts you need to research storm which 120seconds.
2. Also this research costs 200,200. Ghosts come with EMP ready. EMP also takes its full effect instantaneously(ie you cannot dodge it). Storm does damage over time very slowly....
3. The HT has no other use other than feedback and storm. It cannot stand on its own as a unit.
4. Gateway units are much much weaker than basic units from other races. The HT/Collosus is something a protoss almost requires in order to engage an opponent. (marine marauder with stim and concussive absolutely rapes zealot stalker with charge and blink, zergling roach rapes zealot stalker even with sentries,Protoss has to rely on very good forcefields to even things up which leaves things up to chance and even then the protoss army can still get crushed.
Overall the protoss gateway units are a lot more expensive for the very little dps they provide relative to the other race counterparts.
If they remove the amulet upgrade at the very least, ghost emp should also require research time and cost 200 200. Also stalkers and zealots should be buffed vs zerg units becuase otherwise collosus is the will be the only tech option in many situations. This is bad because the prtoss tech path then becomes very very predictable.
people tend to forget that Ghost are actually more expensive than HTs, Ghost cost 150/150, while HTs, cost 50/150, i mean seriously ?. 50 mins ??, and when out of mana you can make an archon with 2 HT, at the cost of 100/300, but it actually is one of the most cost efficient units.
People tend to compare only units when their roles collide or something, but you need to see the bigger angle
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Could you other toss please stop complaining that storm is 'necessary' for drops, it's embarrassing the rest of us that can handle it with gateway units and a feedback.
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On March 03 2011 04:49 Swimcito wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:29 jacobmarlow wrote:
Removing the HT will make Protoss very underpowered.
Reasons why
1. Unlike ghosts you need to research storm which 120seconds.
2. Also this research costs 200,200. Ghosts come with EMP ready. EMP also takes its full effect instantaneously(ie you cannot dodge it). Storm does damage over time very slowly....
3. The HT has no other use other than feedback and storm. It cannot stand on its own as a unit.
4. Gateway units are much much weaker than basic units from other races. The HT/Collosus is something a protoss almost requires in order to engage an opponent. (marine marauder with stim and concussive absolutely rapes zealot stalker with charge and blink, zergling roach rapes zealot stalker even with sentries,Protoss has to rely on very good forcefields to even things up which leaves things up to chance and even then the protoss army can still get crushed.
Overall the protoss gateway units are a lot more expensive for the very little dps they provide relative to the other race counterparts.
If they remove the amulet upgrade at the very least, ghost emp should also require research time and cost 200 200. Also stalkers and zealots should be buffed vs zerg units becuase otherwise collosus is the will be the only tech option in many situations. This is bad because the prtoss tech path then becomes very very predictable. people tend to forget that Ghost are actually more expensive than HTs, Ghost cost 150/150, while HTs, cost 50/150, i mean seriously ?. 50 mins ??, and when out of mana you can make an archon with 2 HT, at the cost of 100/300, but it actually is one of the most cost efficient units. People tend to compare only units when their roles collide or something, but you need to see the bigger angle
Have you forgotten a little something called mules? 100 minerals is a joke for terrans. Also, you're neglecting the cost it takes to reach templar tech AND both upgrades to make it useful. What do you need to make a ghost academy? Oh, a barracks.
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EPT
