EPTKhaydarin amulet analysis - Page 23
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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. | ||
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ROOTIllusion
United States1060 Posts
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
On March 02 2011 22:18 Velocirapture wrote: The funny thing about all of the arguments about the amulet is that almost none of them focus on the HT itself. Every zerg/terran is looking at the HT without KA and thinking "damn thats still super strong. I wish I could have that in my army." And the thing thats making me LOL is that toss do not disagree. Nobody in their right mind thinks that the unit in a vacuum is bad, the problem is that it loses 90% of its positive interactions with other toss units. As the game stands, the ENTIRE protoss tech tree is balanced around HT and Collo. Why do we have BY FAR the least efficient tier 1/2 units in the game? Because if zealots were marines and stalkers were marauders then collo and HT would end the game the second they came out. Basically what im saying is that this patch will destroy toss for a while so it is natural for there to be a violent reaction. These are growing pains and it is my prediction that 1.4 will come with an increase to warpgate research time, a heavy-ish nerf to collo and a HUGE buff to gateway units. I think there should be a reason not to get warpgates or to keep some gateways. Warping in units should take longer than training them out of a gateway, therefore you can get them anywhere you want. With this you would have to decrease the build time of the gateway units so protoss doesn't die to anything that is thrown at it. Warp gates should be a strategical factor and a late game option for harassment. Then the the amulet wouldn't be overpowered like it is now, since you just wouldn't have infinite warp gates back at home. This would also nerf the 4gates and generally change a lot. If you tweak the build times for gateway units then it should be all ok. Only problem I see is 2gate openings then. I think the warpgates are a huge design issue and shoeld be removed with HotS if not earlier. | ||
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Cabinet Sanchez
Australia1097 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:23 oxxo wrote: They don't at smaller numbers unless you dont' use sentries or suck with FF. So one gets to press the stim key and attack move and the other has to be a grand master with forcefields, I see. | ||
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Dogsi
Indonesia298 Posts
On March 02 2011 23:10 [Illusion] wrote: Great analysis. To everyone complaining about emp > HT, ever used feedback or split your HTs? Range. Cloak. Sorry but not a realistic rebutal. Also, High Templars are T3. Storm requires research. Ghosts are T2. EMP doesn't require research. A more valid comparison would be Ravens + HSM vs HT + storm. I don't know why people think HT's counterpart is Ghost... Ghosts are a counter to HT's. | ||
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Supamang
United States2298 Posts
Youre right, I shouldnt have included those, but when people like Eraz0rZ type shit like... I think its funny the whole EMP spread units thing. What about storms... spread units? seriously if your retarded that you use that as an argument you shouldnt be whining about storm in the first place. ...I tend to ignore all decency and retaliate. People making personal attacks are annoying, but ignorable. People making personal attacks AND with stupid arguments, on the other hand, are damn near irresistible. bleh, but youre right tho. i usually regret sinking to their level. | ||
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Velocirapture
United States983 Posts
On March 02 2011 23:14 decaf wrote: I think there should be a reason not to get warpgates or to keep some gateways. Warping in units should take longer than training them out of a gateway, therefore you can get them anywhere you want. With this you would have to decrease the build time of the gateway units so protoss doesn't die to anything that is thrown at it. Warp gates should be a strategical factor and a late game option for harassment. Then the the amulet wouldn't be overpowered like it is now, since you just wouldn't have infinite warp gates back at home. This would also nerf the 4gates and generally change a lot. If you tweak the build times for gateway units then it should be all ok. Only problem I see is 2gate openings then. I think the warpgates are a huge design issue and shoeld be removed with HotS if not earlier. I think that this is a valid view but it implies more than you may think. Basically this type of argument moves toward the balancing strategy that "differences cause imbalances". This is OF COURSE true. Turning the gateway into the production equivalent of a terran building makes it way easier to balance gateway units with barracks units. The main reason I didnt include this in my balancing strategy is because I honestly value the game for both play and for viewing. Differences make the game "fun" at least for me and I would be sad if this game turned into essentially mirror matches, even if the winner was always the most skilled. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
=========== This was actually discussed extensively over in the primary Patch 1.3 on PTR thread. I was involved in the discussion for several pages but do not feel like reiterating everything, but I will point out a few things. Legend: != (is not equal to) (1) The HT != The Ghost (2) Storm != EMP (3) Everyone else has to wait longer than 40 seconds to actually use their respective AoE spell after ordering the unit. Storm was the only 5 second, spammable, proxy AoE spell in the game. The Gateway Units Inferior to the Barracks Myth ====================================== It's wild but there are actually Myths about this game and how it works. Protoss insists that the Gateway tech tree is worse than the Barracks. Really? Let's look at the two teams ... Team Gateway • Zealot • Stalker • Sentry • Dark Templar • High Templar • Archon Team Barracks • Marine • Marauder • Reaper • Ghost Now, let's look at the teams' respective upgrades ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Team Gateway • Warpgates, Hallucination, Charge, Blink, Psionic Storm, Amulet (will probably be removed) Team Barracks • Combat Shields, Stim, C-Shells, Nitro Packs (lol), Personal Cloaking, Mobius Reactor There is this weird canonical opinion that Gateway units are somehow underpowered. In my opinion, this is just simply not true. We've all been in scenario where Protoss rolls your entire 200/200 army and actually doesn't even lose a single unit (exaggerating, of course). Both the Stalker and the Zealot are insanely awesome units, are they your primary DPS units? No. Blizzard thought it a good idea to give your primary DPS roles to the Colossus, the Carrier, and spells like storm. Conversely they thought it a good idea to make the Terran DPS unit paper-thin. The Marines is cheap, does insane DPS in high numbers, and dies instantly to everything as the game goes on. So as the game progresses the efficacy of the Terran DPS unit plummets. I think there are some fundamental design flaws in the balance of the game and I have no idea how they could possibly fix them with the current +/- buildtime, requisite buildings, +/- movement speed, remove upgrade patch mind-set. I think as the expansion comes out and we see new units, new abilities, and new mechanics the game will start to flatten out a bit. Protoss QQ's HARD, like any race should when they get nerfed, but they have the best units in the game by far. Really, what's the deal guys? | ||
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xsevR
United States324 Posts
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42x10
United States62 Posts
Are you telling me that the most gas expensive unit i produce isn't even going to be in my army? 1 storm won't get near to killing a medivac, meaning to be safe i'm leaving at least 2 ht's, 100/300 in every expo. I'm not forgetting feedback, but expecting me to be able to feedback medivacs as soon as they appear on my minimap and before they drop is like expecting a terran to EMP a toss every game, which is apparently "impossible" to them. Which leaves my army that much weaker. All he has to do is e-click-e-click-e-click-1ta to COMPLETELY nullify any HT's that i have in my army. Not only that but his 12 vikings also allow the ever present sieged tanks to own half your stalkers before you engage, and your collosi disappear in seconds. This is just another in a series of stupid "balance" changes Blizzard has made. They seem to have an Anti-protoss agenda sometimes with the endless series of nerfs. | ||
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deathly rat
United Kingdom911 Posts
On March 03 2011 00:05 TimeSpiral wrote: The Amulet =========== This was actually discussed extensively over in the primary Patch 1.3 on PTR thread. I was involved in the discussion for several pages but do not feel like reiterating everything, but I will point out a few things. Legend: != (is not equal to) (1) The HT != The Ghost (2) Storm != EMP (3) Everyone else has to wait longer than 40 seconds to actually use their respective AoE spell after ordering the unit. Storm was the only 5 second, spammable, proxy AoE spell in the game. The Gateway Units Inferior to the Barracks Myth ====================================== It's wild but there are actually Myths about this game and how it works. Protoss insists that the Gateway tech tree is worse than the Barracks. Really? Let's look at the two teams ... Team Gateway • Zealot • Stalker • Sentry • Dark Templar • High Templar • Archon Team Barracks • Marine • Marauder • Reaper • Ghost Now, let's look at the teams' respective upgrades ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Team Gateway • Warpgates, Hallucination, Charge, Blink, Psionic Storm, Amulet (will probably be removed) Team Barracks • Combat Shields, Stim, C-Shells, Nitro Packs (lol), Personal Cloaking, Mobius Reactor There is this weird canonical opinion that Gateway units are somehow underpowered. In my opinion, this is just simply not true. We've all been in scenario where Protoss rolls your entire 200/200 army and actually doesn't even lose a single unit (exaggerating, of course). Both the Stalker and the Zealot are insanely awesome units, are they your primary DPS units? No. Blizzard thought it a good idea to give your primary DPS roles to the Colossus, the Carrier, and spells like storm. Conversely they thought it a good idea to make the Terran DPS unit paper-thin. The Marines is cheap, does insane DPS in high numbers, and dies instantly to everything as the game goes on. So as the game progresses the efficacy of the Terran DPS unit plummets. I think there are some fundamental design flaws in the balance of the game and I have no idea how they could possibly fix them with the current +/- buildtime, requisite buildings, +/- movement speed, remove upgrade patch mind-set. I think as the expansion comes out and we see new units, new abilities, and new mechanics the game will start to flatten out a bit. Protoss QQ's HARD, like any race should when they get nerfed, but they have the best units in the game by far. Really, what's the deal guys? I like your explanation but to address 2 points. 1) when you compare gateway vs barracks, ppl are really talking about early stuff, so what they are talking about is MM vs stalkers/sentrys/zealots. MM is very effective in this fight. 2) Yes warp gate tech is unique to Protoss, but aren't races supposed to be unique? I already posted how I hate the way ppl want to compare units in races and want equivalents. Everyone hates mirror matches, and that is what you are asking afor all the time. | ||
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Hane
France210 Posts
5 second, spammable, proxy AoE spell in the game. actually you can't spam it when you just warp a ht. How about a healing+dropship unit ? The Gateway Units Inferior to the Barracks Myth Quite wrong too. Gateway units are less cost effective and upgrade are quite expensive : 150/100 twilight + 200/200 legs + 150/150 blink... Anyway, i think remove is a bad choice. Actually KA is maybe too strong, but removing instead of changing it is a too big nerf. I feel that something like reduce price to 100/100 and warp with +15 or +20 would be more wise. | ||
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lowercase
Canada1047 Posts
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Manimal_pro
Romania991 Posts
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thragar
Canada450 Posts
Templars can.... stand around. | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
On March 03 2011 00:05 TimeSpiral wrote: lmfao. every single time i see you post, i expect terran tears, and you never fail to dissapoint. I love how you begin off comparing gateway units to barracks, then you throw in collosus. Do you mind me asking what's your 1v1 rank/points? I've searced up sc2ranks.com (your name TimeSpiral) and have only found a bronze and platinum player, which makes me worried (but not surprised). | ||
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Echophantom
United States18 Posts
On March 03 2011 01:22 Hane wrote: Gateway units are less cost effective and upgrade are quite expensive : 150/100 twilight + 200/200 legs + 150/150 blink... You say that like it hasn't always been the case. Protoss units have always been more expensive than the other races, but better per unit. See BW for the exact same mechanic, and it worked fine there. | ||
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[MLG]GCA
United States90 Posts
On March 02 2011 23:05 Supamang wrote: Lol at your blind, knee jerk reaction. Youre pretty retarded yourself since you completely missed the point of this thread. The thread is talking about the time it takes to get a key spells up and ready. With KA upgrade, HTs are much more flexible with their 5 second warp in. They can be warped in at a key location in 5 seconds and have a storm ready to go. Ghosts and Infestors have to be built beforehand. With HT, you can say "Im being dropped by marines, Ill warp in an HT and that should deal with it". With Ghosts or Infestors, you cant say "Im getting hit at location X, ill make one and that should deal with it". This is NOT about spreading vs EMP and Storm. Tehemperorer made the awful and idiotic assumption that 1 EMP will automatically nullify every HT in the game at any point in time, thereby making the charge up time for Storm 2 min 13 seconds. He ignored the fact that HT can be spread out to force the Terran to spend much more time, APM, and EMPs to nullify Storm. He also ignored the MUCH more important point that HTs can be warped in to places where EMPs wont be. For instance, defending a mineral line from a marine drop usually will be Ghost-less. Also, Storm dropping usually avoids ghosts as well. You should really think before posting. It helps to make yourself look less like an asshat These facts can't be ignored: Templar require an expensive, time consuming research for Storm. Templar are on a more time consuming, more expensive tech path than the Ghost and Infestor. Templar have zero use with less than 50 energy. (Two required for Archon). Templar are less mobile than the Ghost and Infestor. This is why Amulet was so strong (albeit, a bit too strong). The fact that Storm requires research alone makes the OP's claim sketchy at best. It doesn't factor in the extra time and resources it takes to give Templar their most utilized spell, which the Ghost and Infestor get for free. So, how is it balanced that now, with supposedly equal "build times" (which I don't necessarily agree with either), that I don't get free acess to Storm? Is it really that much better than Fungal and EMP? Even if it is better, is it so much better that it isn't warranted by the increased teching time, lack of mobility of the Templar, and the Templar having no use with less than 50 energy? I understand the problem with Amulet, and adding something like a 10 second cooldown before a Storm can be cast or making Amulet give +10 or +15 energy would have been a better change. Removing it entirely just makes an already long and expensive tech path even less appealing, and frankly, not viable as a midgame choice. That's not good for the game, IMO. You, like many others in this thread, also make the terrible assumption that once you research Amulet you magically always have 8 Warp Gates that arent on cooldown to bring in a mass of Storms. That isn't the case, as someone with good WG macro will be on cooldown as much as possible. Perhaps Amulet was to forgiving on players who missed WG macro, and a less drastic change like mentioned above would still make a difference there. | ||
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RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
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TheDougler
Canada8304 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:25 tehemperorer wrote: Logic is flawed, OP. HT are instantly countered by ghosts. 1 EMP makes every HT lose shields and not be able to cast storm for 2 minutes and 13 seconds. If you were protoss and chose the HT tech path, you are shit out of luck. If Terran attacks in that 2 min 13 seconds, you will lose without the amulet. What's the solution? Go colossus. What does Terran do? Blindly build reactored vikings before you even have a robo facility. They can mass the cheap vikings before you even have 1 colossus, before range, and without scouting or scanning. It makes the PvT metagame so predictable for both sides, except the Terran have it better in viking/MMM because of mineral advantage and the ease of massing their units. I disagree. Feedbacking ghosts can "counter them". Esentially, ghosts versus templar come down to micro, pure skill. I think that that interaction between them is awesome. Just watch SanZenith´s game versus ogsEnsare. He won that game not because of storms, but because of feedbacks. That´s awesome. Feedbacking terran happens rarely these days due how powerful the storms are. Sure feedback happens, but not as often as storm. This should balance that out a bit. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On March 03 2011 01:45 da_head wrote: lmfao. every single time i see you post, i expect terran tears, and you never fail to dissapoint. I love how you begin off comparing gateway units to barracks, then you throw in collosus. Do you mind me asking what's your 1v1 rank/points? I've searced up sc2ranks.com (your name TimeSpiral) and have only found a bronze and platinum player, which makes me worried (but not surprised). Yeah, most people perceive opinions and discussion as "QQ", which is fine. W/e. I don't mind at all. The accusations are, 99.99% of the time from the people who play on the other side of the argument. So, instead of engaging, they flame. No biggie. I'm ranked in the Platinum League but probably play at a low 2300 pt Diamond level. I make this information public in my TL profile. Did you not check there? My team leagues are pretty rofl. Most of the time I'm playing AT with my buddies who are copper, or worse, so we don't do well at all. Why would my ranking worry you? I don't ladder nearly as much as I'd like to. And recently, due to real life issues, I've been unable to ladder for almost a full week!! I'm itchin' pretty bad. I'm not a pro, or master level player by any means, but I absolutely understand the game and have respectable execution skills. | ||
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