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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 02 2011 19:27 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
its nice how the grass is always greener and how Ps that never build cannons or have ANYTHING to defend in their base think the warpgate mechanic should make them 100% safe vs drops. its pathetic.
just shows you that you don't have any Sense of PvT Gameplay
Photon Canons unlike Turrets cost alot more (150 vs 100), while doing alot less damage against Air and can't be repaired.
And still we DO see P building Canons against Mutalisks obviously.
But not against Terran why?
If Zerg gets Mutas, he will obviously attack Probes, and thus Canons will be cost efficient allways.
If terran gets Medivacs and sees you canoning up, he doesn't need to drop (or just avaid the canoned areas) and still do damage anyway cause you will lack Ground Army obviously cause you just wasted like 2-3 Canosn ~ 500minerals per Base in static defense that is absolutely useless in an ground engagement.
obviously we can't Canon up the whole base like Terran does due to the cost...(and we need additional Pylons to power those areas in the first place)
Given the Range of Turrets/Photos, protoss needs ranged colossus to kill them safely, while terran has with tanks way earlier access to longranged units to destroy photons safely.
unlike bunkers, Canons are also not Salvagable, or up rootable like crawlers, each canon could have be an additional unit or an additional gateway that is way more useful against T than a photon canon that dies like in seconds to marauders -.-
Obviously Canons have their place in PvZ..against roaches, against Hydras, but in PvT..no way...
against banshees-> of course
but against M&M? very contraproductive
you will be outproduced and outmacroed pretty fast, cause you don't have the army to threaten him.
Different races play different in each matchup and this is obviously due to balance.
you think Pros wouldn't do that, if it is cost efficient or give an advantage ? -.-....
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this patch will probably broke the templar... u can always change the khaydarin to the old bw standard +50 energy max not starting.
I don't think just removing upgrades is the way to go... starcraft 2 is becoming less appealing if u remove options and shut down strategies
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On March 02 2011 17:01 PiLoKo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:16 Darneck wrote:HT will still have huge advantage of being teleported to where is needed, and also being able to cast secondary spell much earlier, but it is going to be much fairer. That's how it is now, that's exactly how it's not gonna be when the amulet is removed. No one is gonna know where they will be needing a HT in 50 seconds. You will never warp in your HT where you need it, you will warp it in at your base safely for it to get its energy and then move it. I dont see the intelligence in this kind of thinking, hello? I mean, it would be awesome if Zerg could transform banelings in just a few seconds, that way you dont need to be strategicly prepared for when terran comes, wouldn´t it be awesome if terran could make a ghost in 5 seconds? Just when needed, with the right energy just to stop the push, game is to hard, why not make it a little more noob friendly? I mean really, think about it.
Then why the templar has to research storm ? the cost is also huge 200/200
reduce storm cost to 100/100 at least or give us the templar with storm already researched like
terran and zerg units
feedback is sh** compared to fungal and emp.
infestor and ghost have their abilities ready ... fungal and EMP.
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I just want to add. The HT is super cuz of its damage mostly! If soo many ppl think that they kill mining drones/scvs to easy, well if the actually dps would be lowered then you could actually react to move your mining dudes out in time before they die. (With proper reaction)
What im trying to say that I as a terran don't give d*mn about the khadyrian amulet and more about the 20 dps/4sec that terring through everything like a piece of paper in every late game protoss fight.
And ppl arguing about ghost->>>> ht in 1 emp are just stupid. Ht-->> ghost in 1 sec too! and with proper spreading this wouldnt even be a problem for any of them *T_T
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On March 02 2011 20:03 Veasel wrote:
I just want to add. The HT is super cuz of its damage mostly! If soo many ppl think that they kill mining drones/scvs to easy, well if the actually dps would be lowered then you could actually react to move your mining dudes out in time before they die. (With proper reaction)
Press Space, Control Select Worker -> move away, sure you will have some losses, but not greater than any other Eco Harass Terran can do to Protoss or Zerg.
Storm drops are only getting good because Terrans are not Aware that P can do such harass and thus can't react in time, but that is obviously only because bad play...and not to balance.
In my league at least Terrans are easily able to react to such drops, denying Damage completely or at least reduce its effectiveness greatly due to map awareness.
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On March 02 2011 19:47 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 19:27 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
its nice how the grass is always greener and how Ps that never build cannons or have ANYTHING to defend in their base think the warpgate mechanic should make them 100% safe vs drops. its pathetic.
just shows you that you don't have any Sense of PvT Gameplay Photon Canons unlike Turrets cost alot more (150 vs 100), while doing alot less damage against Air and can't be repaired. And still we DO see P building Canons against Mutalisks obviously. But not against Terran why? If Zerg gets Mutas, he will obviously attack Probes, and thus Canons will be cost efficient allways. If terran gets Medivacs and sees you canoning up, he doesn't need to drop (or just avaid the canoned areas) and still do damage anyway cause you will lack Ground Army obviously cause you just wasted like 2-3 Canosn ~ 500minerals per Base in static defense that is absolutely useless in an ground engagement. obviously we can't Canon up the whole base like Terran does due to the cost...(and we need additional Pylons to power those areas in the first place) G....
ramble ramble ramble. pick one small thing from my post and ignore evrything else. then you do so many weird statements , your hypocrisy should reach toxic levels.
you complain about weaker air dps but dont mention that they shoot ground. you complain that you need a pylon powering in the area (u srs?), tune your "facts" (2-3 cannons arent ~500 minerals. they are 300-450). you then switch from comparing it to a turret to comparing it to a bunker for the sole reason to complain about how cannons are static. i dont even want to go in the rest of it cause it not only makes no sense most of the time its also completly missing the point.
if you have 2 cannons in your min line (and have important tech like archives/ collosus den there) you can stall/fend critical dmg for a long time. but even that doesnt matter.
since my point was
1. thatyou can warpin and thus in general have a easier time defending drops. cannons aside, mobile army aside, storm aside. you can have several units to defend no matter where your army is or where the drop happens. thats a big advantage.
2. about the guy that cried that he needs to have something in his base to defend against drops in his base and for whatever reason compared it to keeping 2 BCs in a base.
so not only did you completly ignore the context and point but also wrote a huge ammount of incredibly biased and hypocritical stuff. would be entertaining if it wasnt so sad.
/edit
you think Pros wouldn't do that, if it is cost efficient or give an advantage
not only do pros use cannons from time to time but also even pros still dont use a ton of things that are good.
until 2 months ago P wouldnt use voidrays in regular play. until 2 months ago Ts wouldnt use thors in regular play tvp.until 1 month ago you never saw motherships used ever.pros still barely use sensor towers. there are tons more examples.
its just not a good argument.
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this is probably the best math/argument I've seen for removal of KA.
Edited:
WG research + storm ~ cast time of ghost/infestor+ energy upgrade.
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I just feel like this direct unit comparison really only can lead to all races having identical versions of each other's units to be completely balanced (I think this is in the process of happening). Which I personally feel would make the game as a whole a lot less interesting.
However, if we decide that we want all 3 races to be different, and therefore have inherrant strengths and weaknesses, then such unit comparisson debate can only end in a circular argument (which we see a lot of in these forums).
In the end the game should be about the flow of attack and defend, more than 1 unit vs 1 unit. You must try to play YOUR strategy, and your opponent will try to play THEIR strategy, and it is a battle to see who can adapt to make their strategy the more dominant one.
I know this one single post won't change absolutely anything, but still I want to say that saying "colosuss + Void Ray is impossible to stop!", or "warp in templar is OP!" is really a low level analysis of SC2. The question for me is how i can enforce my own strategy and not let the opponent do his, so vs high tech units I would only be looking at how I can spot what he is going for, and either looking for a fast win or take advantage of the low amount of units early on to get ahead.
I'm no expert, and it's only my opinion, but this is why i think direct unit comparrison such as occured in OP is actually both misleading and also harmful to the development of the game.
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On March 02 2011 04:25 tehemperorer wrote:
Logic is flawed, OP. HT are instantly countered by ghosts. 1 EMP makes every HT lose shields and not be able to cast storm for 2 minutes and 13 seconds. If you were protoss and chose the HT tech path, you are shit out of luck. If Terran attacks in that 2 min 13 seconds, you will lose without the amulet. What's the solution? Go colossus. What does Terran do? Blindly build reactored vikings before you even have a robo facility. They can mass the cheap vikings before you even have 1 colossus, before range, and without scouting or scanning. It makes the PvT metagame so predictable for both sides, except the Terran have it better in viking/MMM because of mineral advantage and the ease of massing their units.
Ironic that you accuse the poster of having flawed logic.
1. 1 EMP only makes every HT lose shields and not be able to cast ONLY IF you clumped all your HTs together and put them at the front of your army. If this is true, you deserved to lose the match.
2. You seem to be complaining that it's unfair that Terran have a cost-effective counter to colossi, a unit that would utterly dominate a Terran army.
3. It's only your opinion that Terran have it better in viking/MMM. I actually disagree with that.
Note: Presence of bias is obvious in your argument.
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The silly thing about this amulet is that protoss can warp in a HT in 5 seconds and instantly toss a psi storm, where zerg need to wait for their infestors for 45 seconds. But not only do you have a quick counter for mass bio - As soon as you popped your psi storm, and you don't feel like waiting for your energy to return, you can just morph your HT with another HT and get one of the strongest units in the game: The Archon. Where infestors needs to wait for their energy to return, templars can just morph into an archon and go rape more up?! The khaydaran amulet removal defitenitely benifits towards balancing of SC2!
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On March 02 2011 21:08 Whiteaegis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:25 tehemperorer wrote:
Logic is flawed, OP. HT are instantly countered by ghosts. 1 EMP makes every HT lose shields and not be able to cast storm for 2 minutes and 13 seconds. If you were protoss and chose the HT tech path, you are shit out of luck. If Terran attacks in that 2 min 13 seconds, you will lose without the amulet. What's the solution? Go colossus. What does Terran do? Blindly build reactored vikings before you even have a robo facility. They can mass the cheap vikings before you even have 1 colossus, before range, and without scouting or scanning. It makes the PvT metagame so predictable for both sides, except the Terran have it better in viking/MMM because of mineral advantage and the ease of massing their units. Ironic that you accuse the poster of having flawed logic. 1. 1 EMP only makes every HT lose shields and not be able to cast ONLY IF you clumped all your HTs together and put them at the front of your army. If this is true, you deserved to lose the match. 2. You seem to be complaining that it's unfair that Terran have a cost-effective counter to colossi, a unit that would utterly dominate a Terran army. 3. It's only your opinion that Terran have it better in viking/MMM. I actually disagree with that. Note: Presence of bias is obvious in your argument.
I think its funny the whole EMP spread units thing.
What about storms... spread units?
seriously if your retarded that you use that as an argument you shouldnt be whining about storm in the first place.
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This thread shows why some of us are in masters while others remain under platinum. If you're bad, don't post analysis, don't try to do cute things, and don't pretend to be good. It will help you in the long run.
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On March 02 2011 21:09 Terkill wrote:
The silly thing about this amulet is that protoss can warp in a HT in 5 seconds and instantly toss a psi storm, where zerg need to wait for their infestors for 45 seconds. But not only do you have a quick counter for mass bio - As soon as you popped your psi storm, and you don't feel like waiting for your energy to return, you can just morph your HT with another HT and get one of the strongest units in the game: The Archon. Where infestors needs to wait for their energy to return, templars can just morph into an archon and go rape more up?! The khaydaran amulet removal defitenitely benifits towards balancing of SC2!
The archon doesnt pop up immediately, you have to wait like 10-20 seconds before its usable, and what battle would actually last that long? Your other point is good, but archons in no way make HT's OP.
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![[image loading]](http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/7549/samjackson.gif)
There are a lot of people accusting me of inaccuracy, but thats simple not fair.
I have explained before, this math is true for every single HT, not just first.
To understand, you first need to realize that there is difference between production rate and production time.
While reactored Factory can produce 4 Helions per minute, build time is not 15 seconds - but still 30 sec.
While 1 Hatchery can produce 10 Ultras per minute, Ultralisk doesnt have build time of 6 seconds - but 70 sec.
And while 1 Gateway can produce at rate of 1 HT per 45 seconds, it takes 5 seconds to build HT.
When Rax with TL and Warpgate are finished at same time, it looks like this:
Warpgate timeline:
0:05 HT created (1)
0:45 cooldown expires
0:50 HT created (2)
1:30 cooldown expires
1:35 HT created (3)
2:15 cooldown expires
Barrack with Tech Lab timeline:
0:45 Ghost created (1)
1:30 Ghost created (2)
2:15 Ghost created (3)
So as you can see, it takes 5 seconds to get HT everytime after previous unit production cycle is finished, while Ghost has real build time of 45 seconds.
Due to warp-in, every HT has 40 more seconds to gain energy, and thus there is no reason to have KA when warp-in basically gives free +25 energy and teleport.
Also people complaining about BW, it takes 22 seconds less to get energy in SC2 w/o upgrade than it took in BW with upgrade (assuming energy regeneration is same, I actually dont know that for sure).
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Your "analysis" is totally wrong. Why? Because casters, as any unit in the game, is balanced considering the race match ups and how units affect each other as a whole "ecosystem", you can't just remove the casters and compare them to "see" if one is better (balanced) than other, that's wrong. Not to mention the investment to "reach" the caster.
The title shouldn't be "analysis", the OP only talk about production times of the casters.
This is an analysis: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=191702
This: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169830
Not that.
And even consider production times alone is wrong, due to the tech needed for every caster.
Ghost: Barracks+Techlab+Academy = (350m+75g)
Infestor: Pool+Lair+Pit = (450m+200g)
Templar: Gateway+Cyber+Council+Archieves+Storm research = (800m + 500g)
Not consider the investment (just to name 1 non-covered topic) in this "analysis" is hilarious.
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On March 02 2011 16:22 nexkis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:17 Parj wrote:On March 02 2011 06:28 DragonDefonce wrote:
I'll just explain why the amulet change is bullshit in PvT in a mid late game scenario. I'll let PvZ go because I think that match up is too early to call either way. Feel free to refute any point, but don't be like "oh well you shouldn't let it get to that point". I am assuming mid late game in a more or less equal standing, by similar yet competent players. Also, sorry if someone posted same points earlier, but I'm not gonna read 10 pages of discussion.
Facts:
1. Protoss basic units(zealot, stalker, sentry) get raped by M&M
2. Colossus and HT are powerful enough to make this an even fight, even with Terran's respective special units.
3. In the absence of special units, by fact 1, Protoss will lose to Terran once the game gets in mid/late stage in comparable economic/tech standing, and assuming both players are competent and have similar skill level.
4. Approximately 7 Vikings kill a colossus in 2 volleys, in reasonable upgrade differential.
5. 7 Vikings = 1050/525, 1 Colossus 300/200.
6.Because of 4 and 5, Colossus become less effective as the game drags on and thus Protoss relies on HT more. This is the current trend in most high level games.
7. Storm is a DoT and does less damage even when full damage is taken than the amount of shield that EMP takes away for most units.
8. Feedback is a targeting skill while EMP is an aoe, and thus, much harder to use. This is compounded by the fact that ghosts are extremely small and can cloak, thus not only harder to click on, but also harder to spot in the middle of large bionic army, and leaves room for cloaked emp.
9. Therefore, it can be argued that Terran has a very easy and effective methods of eliminating Protoss special units(colossus, ht, sentry too i guess), while protoss does not have easy way of killing the ghost, although they have reasonably effective way to disable the medivac and the raven.
10. Because of 1, in order for Protoss to be able to overcome 9 is to have quickly renewable source of either colossus or high templar that can cast storm, probably in the middle of the fight as either can be very quickly taken out or disabled early in the battle or before the battle even starts.
11. Colossus are not very easily replaceable.
12. Removing amulet makes resupplying high templar with enough mana to cast storm difficult.
13. If 1,9, and 12 are true, then all terran has to do is come out even in a fight, and attack again as soon as the reinforcement arrive.
14. Amulet upgrade would supply storm to be used so that 13 does not happen.
Thus, removing the Amulet breaks balance. Thank you for fixing the discussion on a logical way 7 pages ago, and everything said after was under just because nobody still countered you. Guys, that's the difference between talking about yours (subjectives) visions of the game versus a (objective) analysis of facts. It's called proof by verbosity and it's a logical fallacy, pretty much everything he said is bollox but nobody can't be bothered to adress all 14 points since it would consume too much time. The first point "protoss gate way units get raped by MMM" is a complete joke to beginn with.
By your logic, anything that is longer than 10 lines is a logical fallacy. There's a big fuck difference between using excessive amounts of words to obscure the argument and a valid argument that just takes a long time to say. I suggest you take the time to actually learn the meanings of the things you say, and to check if what you are about to say is correct.
And yeah, actually marines and marauders beat the shit out of zealot stalker sentry army. Period.
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On March 02 2011 21:40 Sek-Kuar wrote:There are a lot of people accusting me of inaccuracy, but thats simple not fair. I have explained before, this math is true for every single HT, not just first. To understand, you first need to realize that there is difference between production rate and production time.While reactored Factory can produce 4 Helions per minute, build time is not 15 seconds - but still 30 sec. While 1 Hatchery can produce 10 Ultras per minute, Ultralisk doesnt have build time of 6 seconds - but 70 sec. And while 1 Gateway can produce at rate of 1 HT per 45 seconds, it takes 5 seconds to build HT. When Rax with TL and Warpgate are finished at same time, it looks like this:
Warpgate timeline:
0:05 HT created (1)
0:45 cooldown expires
0:50 HT created (2)
1:30 cooldown expires
1:35 HT created (3)
2:15 cooldown expires
Barrack with Tech Lab timeline:
0:45 Ghost created (1)
1:30 Ghost created (2)
2:15 Ghost created (3)
So as you can see, it takes 5 seconds to get HT everytime after previous unit production cycle is finished, while Ghost has real build time of 45 seconds.
Due to warp-in, every HT has 40 more seconds to gain energy, and thus there is no reason to have KA when warp-in basically gives free +25 energy and teleport.Also people complaining about BW, it takes 22 seconds less to get energy in SC2 w/o upgrade than it took in BW with upgrade (assuming energy regeneration is same, I actually dont know that for sure).
i like how you posted that pic while you should do so yourself.
Since ive read more then once it doesnt matter we get a ht on the field EARLIER then your ghost.
we cant do anything with it EXCEPT it being sniped. i would wrather have a gateway where my HT is safe and gets 75 energy on spot then warping them in my base vulnerable to ANY sort of attack.
so i can warp a few ht's in your base. What use does that give me except that i need to WAIT till energy is at 75? i would wrather have a proxied barracks in your base where my HT is safe to train up.
also if i want more then 10 ht's (late late game) i need to have 1500 gas saved up with 2 cycles of warping in. (wich means that the first ht might take 5 seconds to warpin BUT the second takes its full 50!!! (note that its not 45)
also if i dont build 10 ht's when i can, and only get like 5, 1 emp is GG if i dont keep some in the back (you know regaining energy) while 3 ht's cant kill a marauder army late game so i need atleast 5 storms in a row pulled off perfectly
also lets not forget the investment we need to put into it. we INVEST money to wait till our unit is available while its OUT on the battle field.. whats wrong here?...
i hope you see now that your logic is flawwed. since if you wish to compare casters. you need to take everything into consideration with theory crafting.
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Havn't really read the whole thread since it's really long so bare with me if it's already been posted. The main problem I see with removing the khaydarin amulet is TvP. Terran can do really powerful drops against protoss which you can't really defend with gateway units. I mean if a terran drops 2 marauders and 4 marines you're going to have to warp-in alot more units then he is investing in the drop, and even then he might win the fight. Marines and marauders with a medivac and some stim kiting just rapes gateway units so badly. Protoss can of course send some of his main army to defend against the drop, but again he has to send a much bigger force then the terran is dropping with, leaving his main army vulnerable. Imo templars warping in with storm is really stupid but removing it is also stupid. I think they should put the khaydarin amulet to a brood war style amount so they don't warp in with a storm, but also buff gateway units. The stalker is so horribly cost inefficient vs anything and scales much worse then roaches/marauders with upgrades. I think they should increase the stalker dmg vs armored and make it gain 2 more dmg per upgrade like the roach/marauder.
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HT still have the great advantage of being warped? Really? Yeah, it's probably a great idea to warp templars near the battlefield, cause they have a huge chance of surviving for a long time right? And they are absolutely EMP safe in the meantime!
Seriously...
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On March 02 2011 21:58 iNbluE wrote:
HT still have the great advantage of being warped? Really? Yeah, it's probably a great idea to warp templars near the battlefield, cause they have a huge chance of surviving for a long time right? And they are absolutely EMP safe in the meantime!
Seriously...
feedback?
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EPT
