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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 02 2011 16:20 nexkis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:15 TheGiftedApe wrote:On March 02 2011 14:57 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 14:53 jgelling wrote:Very good breakdown. I agree and I think that this will make protosses have to plan ahead more. I think Terran should have to plan ahead to use marauders, so I propose a 44 second nerf before they can start shooting. No seriously, it's not about planning. It's about defending from the stronger drop potential of Terrans, and the potential devastation of a few well-placed EMPs. And no Protoss can afford to leave HTs sitting all over the field, undefended, slowly charging. Not when they're so very immobile compared to all the other spellcasters in the game. 1 HT per base with 3 cannons can kill any drop and the cannons can also protect your HT at the same time and if he drops you with more than 2 medivacs you might just have to scout better. 1 50/150 HT + 3 cannon @150 minerals = 500/150 resources, to stop a drop that costs 500/100(1 medivac +8 rines) sounds good, but factor in that toss is in the defensive position and should have an advatage, add in the build time for cannons and, if as you say, high templars get nerfed, those three cannons and high temp can easily get killed( BAM STIM insta pylon death, no more cannons), cause they wont be built yet, and high templar will be limited to feedbacking the medivac, maybe killing half its health....So your saying I need templar tech, and 3 cannons at EACH of my bases to defend a simple 1 medivac drop? I never said that, you are not the brightest spark aren't you? If it's only one medivac with 8 marines and you don't have templar tech yet then you shouldn't have a problem at all anyway, since that means you are probably still on 2 bases... so just warp in 2-3 zealots to keep the marines busy and pull back a few stalkers to clean them up..... problem solved
lol nice try troll, since those marines will just stim and kill anything I warp in in the area, killing a whole mineral line in the process......as I mention again, most drops are 2 medivacs with 16 marines or 8rines +4 marauders, which is not easily cleaned up by anything. So a toss player should have to pull back his WHOLE ARMY to deal with a little drop.
Insult my intelligence again instead of providing good game-play logic again and become ignored. Yet calling someone stupid is much easier than actually explaining in a logical manner your point isn't it?
you do know that marines can kite zealots ENDLESSLY right?
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On March 02 2011 16:25 TheGiftedApe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:20 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 16:15 TheGiftedApe wrote:On March 02 2011 14:57 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 14:53 jgelling wrote:Very good breakdown. I agree and I think that this will make protosses have to plan ahead more. I think Terran should have to plan ahead to use marauders, so I propose a 44 second nerf before they can start shooting. No seriously, it's not about planning. It's about defending from the stronger drop potential of Terrans, and the potential devastation of a few well-placed EMPs. And no Protoss can afford to leave HTs sitting all over the field, undefended, slowly charging. Not when they're so very immobile compared to all the other spellcasters in the game. 1 HT per base with 3 cannons can kill any drop and the cannons can also protect your HT at the same time and if he drops you with more than 2 medivacs you might just have to scout better. 1 50/150 HT + 3 cannon @150 minerals = 500/150 resources, to stop a drop that costs 500/100(1 medivac +8 rines) sounds good, but factor in that toss is in the defensive position and should have an advatage, add in the build time for cannons and, if as you say, high templars get nerfed, those three cannons and high temp can easily get killed( BAM STIM insta pylon death, no more cannons), cause they wont be built yet, and high templar will be limited to feedbacking the medivac, maybe killing half its health....So your saying I need templar tech, and 3 cannons at EACH of my bases to defend a simple 1 medivac drop? I never said that, you are not the brightest spark aren't you? If it's only one medivac with 8 marines and you don't have templar tech yet then you shouldn't have a problem at all anyway, since that means you are probably still on 2 bases... so just warp in 2-3 zealots to keep the marines busy and pull back a few stalkers to clean them up..... problem solved lol nice try troll, since those marines will just stim and kill anything I warp in in the area, killing a whole mineral line in the process......as I mention again, most drops are 2 medivacs with 16 marines or 8rines +4 marauders, which is not easily cleaned up by anything. So a toss player should have to pull back his WHOLE ARMY to deal with a little drop. Insult my intelligence instead of providing goo game-play logic again and become ignored.
Well then just get a fricking obersver and scout his drop, what do you think zerg or terran is doing when getting dropped in the early - mid game... EXACTLY you either scout it and pull back your army... or you don't and lose a few drones and pull back your army.
Seriously there is no difference AT ALL.
The reason I insulted your intelligence is because you don't make any sense at all, you are seriously complaining that you have to pull back your army when getting dropped by shit load of stuff, well gues what terran and zerg have to do exactly the same, so what's your actual point????
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On March 02 2011 16:27 nexkis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:25 TheGiftedApe wrote:On March 02 2011 16:20 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 16:15 TheGiftedApe wrote:On March 02 2011 14:57 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 14:53 jgelling wrote:Very good breakdown. I agree and I think that this will make protosses have to plan ahead more. I think Terran should have to plan ahead to use marauders, so I propose a 44 second nerf before they can start shooting. No seriously, it's not about planning. It's about defending from the stronger drop potential of Terrans, and the potential devastation of a few well-placed EMPs. And no Protoss can afford to leave HTs sitting all over the field, undefended, slowly charging. Not when they're so very immobile compared to all the other spellcasters in the game. 1 HT per base with 3 cannons can kill any drop and the cannons can also protect your HT at the same time and if he drops you with more than 2 medivacs you might just have to scout better. 1 50/150 HT + 3 cannon @150 minerals = 500/150 resources, to stop a drop that costs 500/100(1 medivac +8 rines) sounds good, but factor in that toss is in the defensive position and should have an advatage, add in the build time for cannons and, if as you say, high templars get nerfed, those three cannons and high temp can easily get killed( BAM STIM insta pylon death, no more cannons), cause they wont be built yet, and high templar will be limited to feedbacking the medivac, maybe killing half its health....So your saying I need templar tech, and 3 cannons at EACH of my bases to defend a simple 1 medivac drop? I never said that, you are not the brightest spark aren't you? If it's only one medivac with 8 marines and you don't have templar tech yet then you shouldn't have a problem at all anyway, since that means you are probably still on 2 bases... so just warp in 2-3 zealots to keep the marines busy and pull back a few stalkers to clean them up..... problem solved lol nice try troll, since those marines will just stim and kill anything I warp in in the area, killing a whole mineral line in the process......as I mention again, most drops are 2 medivacs with 16 marines or 8rines +4 marauders, which is not easily cleaned up by anything. So a toss player should have to pull back his WHOLE ARMY to deal with a little drop. Insult my intelligence instead of providing goo game-play logic again and become ignored. Well then just get a fricking obersver and scout his drop, what do you think zerg or terran is doing when getting dropped in the early game... EXACTLY you either scout and pull back your army... or you don't lose a few drones and pull back your army. Seriously there is no difference AT ALL.
I already argued this point read the full posts, Your expecting protoss to have observers over 100% of the map at 100% of the time, this is INSANELY UNREALISTIC, LRN2STARCRAFT, done with you.
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On March 02 2011 16:28 TheGiftedApe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:27 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 16:25 TheGiftedApe wrote:On March 02 2011 16:20 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 16:15 TheGiftedApe wrote:On March 02 2011 14:57 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 14:53 jgelling wrote:Very good breakdown. I agree and I think that this will make protosses have to plan ahead more. I think Terran should have to plan ahead to use marauders, so I propose a 44 second nerf before they can start shooting. No seriously, it's not about planning. It's about defending from the stronger drop potential of Terrans, and the potential devastation of a few well-placed EMPs. And no Protoss can afford to leave HTs sitting all over the field, undefended, slowly charging. Not when they're so very immobile compared to all the other spellcasters in the game. 1 HT per base with 3 cannons can kill any drop and the cannons can also protect your HT at the same time and if he drops you with more than 2 medivacs you might just have to scout better. 1 50/150 HT + 3 cannon @150 minerals = 500/150 resources, to stop a drop that costs 500/100(1 medivac +8 rines) sounds good, but factor in that toss is in the defensive position and should have an advatage, add in the build time for cannons and, if as you say, high templars get nerfed, those three cannons and high temp can easily get killed( BAM STIM insta pylon death, no more cannons), cause they wont be built yet, and high templar will be limited to feedbacking the medivac, maybe killing half its health....So your saying I need templar tech, and 3 cannons at EACH of my bases to defend a simple 1 medivac drop? I never said that, you are not the brightest spark aren't you? If it's only one medivac with 8 marines and you don't have templar tech yet then you shouldn't have a problem at all anyway, since that means you are probably still on 2 bases... so just warp in 2-3 zealots to keep the marines busy and pull back a few stalkers to clean them up..... problem solved lol nice try troll, since those marines will just stim and kill anything I warp in in the area, killing a whole mineral line in the process......as I mention again, most drops are 2 medivacs with 16 marines or 8rines +4 marauders, which is not easily cleaned up by anything. So a toss player should have to pull back his WHOLE ARMY to deal with a little drop. Insult my intelligence instead of providing goo game-play logic again and become ignored. Well then just get a fricking obersver and scout his drop, what do you think zerg or terran is doing when getting dropped in the early game... EXACTLY you either scout and pull back your army... or you don't lose a few drones and pull back your army. Seriously there is no difference AT ALL. I already argued this point read the full posts, Your expecting protoss to have observers over 100% of the map at 100% of the time, this is INSANELY UNREALISTIC, LRN2STARCRAFT, done with you.
And with is zerg or terran gonna do to scout a drop? You at least have an observer, the only thing terran can scout a drop with is well placed supply depots(unlikely) or a extremely lucky scan and the zerg gotta pray to god that one of his overlords is in the right position to scout the drop.
And no you don't have to scout the entire map, just look at his army, check the medivacs, back to his army, back to the starport... any medivacs missing? Possibly a drop incoming.
Learn to starcraft and stop whining
Jesus...
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On March 02 2011 14:39 nexkis wrote:
Or you could just build a few cannons here and there and warp in stalkers and zealots to kill the drops. Implying that HT are the only way to deal with drops... really? What units do terran have to deal with drops, they can't warp in anything at all and are not very mobile either, even stimmed marines are alot slower than zerglings.
Think about what you are saying.
In other words;
Protoss needs to fully cannon up every base in case Terran gets a Starport? Because he MIGHT Drop in my main, or nat, or 3rd, so I'd better get 6 cannons a base because else I can't defend him? (You need about 6 to prevent blind spots, assuming you want 2 cannons supporting at all times)
Terran doesn't need to defend against Protoss drops that fast; Stalkers dont deal as much DPS versus structures as say, Stimmed Marauders? Zealots can be beaten with liftoff. Protoss drops aren't scarry because Gateway units are weak as hell.
On March 02 2011 16:33 nexkis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:28 TheGiftedApe wrote:On March 02 2011 16:27 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 16:25 TheGiftedApe wrote:On March 02 2011 16:20 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 16:15 TheGiftedApe wrote:On March 02 2011 14:57 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 14:53 jgelling wrote:Very good breakdown. I agree and I think that this will make protosses have to plan ahead more. I think Terran should have to plan ahead to use marauders, so I propose a 44 second nerf before they can start shooting. No seriously, it's not about planning. It's about defending from the stronger drop potential of Terrans, and the potential devastation of a few well-placed EMPs. And no Protoss can afford to leave HTs sitting all over the field, undefended, slowly charging. Not when they're so very immobile compared to all the other spellcasters in the game. 1 HT per base with 3 cannons can kill any drop and the cannons can also protect your HT at the same time and if he drops you with more than 2 medivacs you might just have to scout better. 1 50/150 HT + 3 cannon @150 minerals = 500/150 resources, to stop a drop that costs 500/100(1 medivac +8 rines) sounds good, but factor in that toss is in the defensive position and should have an advatage, add in the build time for cannons and, if as you say, high templars get nerfed, those three cannons and high temp can easily get killed( BAM STIM insta pylon death, no more cannons), cause they wont be built yet, and high templar will be limited to feedbacking the medivac, maybe killing half its health....So your saying I need templar tech, and 3 cannons at EACH of my bases to defend a simple 1 medivac drop? I never said that, you are not the brightest spark aren't you? If it's only one medivac with 8 marines and you don't have templar tech yet then you shouldn't have a problem at all anyway, since that means you are probably still on 2 bases... so just warp in 2-3 zealots to keep the marines busy and pull back a few stalkers to clean them up..... problem solved lol nice try troll, since those marines will just stim and kill anything I warp in in the area, killing a whole mineral line in the process......as I mention again, most drops are 2 medivacs with 16 marines or 8rines +4 marauders, which is not easily cleaned up by anything. So a toss player should have to pull back his WHOLE ARMY to deal with a little drop. Insult my intelligence instead of providing goo game-play logic again and become ignored. Well then just get a fricking obersver and scout his drop, what do you think zerg or terran is doing when getting dropped in the early game... EXACTLY you either scout and pull back your army... or you don't lose a few drones and pull back your army. Seriously there is no difference AT ALL. I already argued this point read the full posts, Your expecting protoss to have observers over 100% of the map at 100% of the time, this is INSANELY UNREALISTIC, LRN2STARCRAFT, done with you. And with is zerg or terran gonna do to scout a drop? You at least have an observer, the only thing terran can scout a drop with is well placed supply depots(unlikely) or a extremely lucky scan and the zerg gotta pray to god that one of his overlords is in the right position to scout the drop. And no you don't have to scout the entire map, just look at his army, check the medivacs, back to his army, back to the starport... any medivacs missing? Possibly a drop incoming. Learn to starcraft and stop whining Jesus...
Terran isn't as vulnerable against drops as their main production buildings are weak to Hydra (not used), Stalker and Sentry only, so in case of a big drop; they Lift off. When the SCVs get attacked, you run them away; they outrun anything anyways.
Next to that, 8 Marauders is enough to beat 2 full Warp prisms of units, 8 Stalkers need a full Warp-in cycle support to beat those 16 Marines/whatev you drop.
So, Terran doesn't need the drop defense as much, next to that Turrets own in DPS (but aren't that viable) and 1/2 Vikings patrolling are usefull anyways (unlike Phoenix) and defend against drops quite well.
And Zerg should position his overlords well, so that argument is invalid.
Random player btw, being annoyed by your arrogance, which caused me to be slightly anti- Terran.
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On March 02 2011 16:33 nexkis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:28 TheGiftedApe wrote:On March 02 2011 16:27 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 16:25 TheGiftedApe wrote:On March 02 2011 16:20 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 16:15 TheGiftedApe wrote:On March 02 2011 14:57 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 14:53 jgelling wrote:Very good breakdown. I agree and I think that this will make protosses have to plan ahead more. I think Terran should have to plan ahead to use marauders, so I propose a 44 second nerf before they can start shooting. No seriously, it's not about planning. It's about defending from the stronger drop potential of Terrans, and the potential devastation of a few well-placed EMPs. And no Protoss can afford to leave HTs sitting all over the field, undefended, slowly charging. Not when they're so very immobile compared to all the other spellcasters in the game. 1 HT per base with 3 cannons can kill any drop and the cannons can also protect your HT at the same time and if he drops you with more than 2 medivacs you might just have to scout better. 1 50/150 HT + 3 cannon @150 minerals = 500/150 resources, to stop a drop that costs 500/100(1 medivac +8 rines) sounds good, but factor in that toss is in the defensive position and should have an advatage, add in the build time for cannons and, if as you say, high templars get nerfed, those three cannons and high temp can easily get killed( BAM STIM insta pylon death, no more cannons), cause they wont be built yet, and high templar will be limited to feedbacking the medivac, maybe killing half its health....So your saying I need templar tech, and 3 cannons at EACH of my bases to defend a simple 1 medivac drop? I never said that, you are not the brightest spark aren't you? If it's only one medivac with 8 marines and you don't have templar tech yet then you shouldn't have a problem at all anyway, since that means you are probably still on 2 bases... so just warp in 2-3 zealots to keep the marines busy and pull back a few stalkers to clean them up..... problem solved lol nice try troll, since those marines will just stim and kill anything I warp in in the area, killing a whole mineral line in the process......as I mention again, most drops are 2 medivacs with 16 marines or 8rines +4 marauders, which is not easily cleaned up by anything. So a toss player should have to pull back his WHOLE ARMY to deal with a little drop. Insult my intelligence instead of providing goo game-play logic again and become ignored. Well then just get a fricking obersver and scout his drop, what do you think zerg or terran is doing when getting dropped in the early game... EXACTLY you either scout and pull back your army... or you don't lose a few drones and pull back your army. Seriously there is no difference AT ALL. I already argued this point read the full posts, Your expecting protoss to have observers over 100% of the map at 100% of the time, this is INSANELY UNREALISTIC, LRN2STARCRAFT, done with you. And with is zerg or terran gonna do to scout a drop? You at least have an observer, the only thing terran can scout a drop with is well placed supply depots(unlikely) or a extremely lucky scan and the zerg gotta pray to god that one of his overlords is in the right position to scout the drop. And no you don't have to scout the entire map, just look at his army, check the medivacs, back to his army, back to the starport... any medivacs missing? Possibly a drop incoming. Learn to starcraft and stop whining Jesus...
lol, have you heard of scan?, zerg is fine overlords, overseers are great at spotting drops since they are already all over the map, xel naga etc etc are you saying protoss has the advantage in map control now as well??? How am I whining, I'm saying the game is balanced fine as it is, you are the one whining for an amulet nerf....Bronze league detected
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On March 02 2011 16:37 ToastieNL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 14:39 nexkis wrote:
Or you could just build a few cannons here and there and warp in stalkers and zealots to kill the drops. Implying that HT are the only way to deal with drops... really? What units do terran have to deal with drops, they can't warp in anything at all and are not very mobile either, even stimmed marines are alot slower than zerglings.
Think about what you are saying. In other words; Protoss needs to fully cannon up every base in case Terran gets a Starport? Because he MIGHT Drop in my main, or nat, or 3rd, so I'd better get 6 cannons a base because else I can't defend him? (You need about 6 to prevent blind spots, assuming you want 2 cannons supporting at all times) Terran doesn't need to defend against Protoss drops that fast; Stalkers dont deal as much DPS versus structures as say, Stimmed Marauders? Zealots can be beaten with liftoff. Protoss drops aren't scarry because Gateway units are weak as hell.
You are not dropping a base to destroy buildings you are dropping to kill scvs, what game are you playing?
"lol, have you heard of scan?, zerg is fine overlords, overseers are great at spotting drops, xel naga etc etc are you saying protoss has the advantage in map control now as well??? How am I whining, I'm saying the game is balanced fine as it is, you are the one whining for an amulet nerf...."
I forgot only zerg and terran can use the xelnaga tower now and yeah scans are awesome against drops...
and you are whining because terran drops are appearently OP (facepalm) and you can only hold off drops with HTs
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On March 02 2011 16:40 nexkis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:37 ToastieNL wrote:On March 02 2011 14:39 nexkis wrote:
Or you could just build a few cannons here and there and warp in stalkers and zealots to kill the drops. Implying that HT are the only way to deal with drops... really? What units do terran have to deal with drops, they can't warp in anything at all and are not very mobile either, even stimmed marines are alot slower than zerglings.
Think about what you are saying. In other words; Protoss needs to fully cannon up every base in case Terran gets a Starport? Because he MIGHT Drop in my main, or nat, or 3rd, so I'd better get 6 cannons a base because else I can't defend him? (You need about 6 to prevent blind spots, assuming you want 2 cannons supporting at all times) Terran doesn't need to defend against Protoss drops that fast; Stalkers dont deal as much DPS versus structures as say, Stimmed Marauders? Zealots can be beaten with liftoff. Protoss drops aren't scarry because Gateway units are weak as hell. You are not dropping a base to destroy buildings you are dropping to kill scvs, what game are you playing?
SCVs can run from Zealots and Stalkers with hardly any losses; Probes can't do the same to Marines and Marauders. I assumed worker harassment was already excluded.
You are not dropping a base to destroy buildings you are dropping to kill scvs, what game are you playing?
"lol, have you heard of scan?, zerg is fine overlords, overseers are great at spotting drops, xel naga etc etc are you saying protoss has the advantage in map control now as well??? How am I whining, I'm saying the game is balanced fine as it is, you are the one whining for an amulet nerf...."
I forgot only zerg and terran can use the xelnaga tower now and yeah scans are awesome against drops...
and you are whining because terran drops are appearently OP (facepalm) and you can only hold off drops with HTs
Scan isn't the answer, but Terran deals with drops more efficiently.
Why don't you start arguing with all our statements instead of picking 1 a post, yelling something completelly irrelevant, scream like a little pig at how whiny we are and than leave, running to mommy about how you fucking raperoflcopterownedlollolwin tose TL.net forumnoobs?
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On March 02 2011 16:42 ToastieNL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:40 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 16:37 ToastieNL wrote:On March 02 2011 14:39 nexkis wrote:
Or you could just build a few cannons here and there and warp in stalkers and zealots to kill the drops. Implying that HT are the only way to deal with drops... really? What units do terran have to deal with drops, they can't warp in anything at all and are not very mobile either, even stimmed marines are alot slower than zerglings.
Think about what you are saying. In other words; Protoss needs to fully cannon up every base in case Terran gets a Starport? Because he MIGHT Drop in my main, or nat, or 3rd, so I'd better get 6 cannons a base because else I can't defend him? (You need about 6 to prevent blind spots, assuming you want 2 cannons supporting at all times) Terran doesn't need to defend against Protoss drops that fast; Stalkers dont deal as much DPS versus structures as say, Stimmed Marauders? Zealots can be beaten with liftoff. Protoss drops aren't scarry because Gateway units are weak as hell. You are not dropping a base to destroy buildings you are dropping to kill scvs, what game are you playing? SCVs can run from Zealots and Stalkers with hardly any losses; Probes can't do the same to Marines and Marauders. I assumed worker harassment was already excluded.
Stalkers are faster than marauders and marines and you are a random player? prove it, mr protoss.
Anyway protoss is OP and most pros say that the amulett is a joke so it's good that it's being removed
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On March 02 2011 16:40 nexkis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:37 ToastieNL wrote:On March 02 2011 14:39 nexkis wrote:
Or you could just build a few cannons here and there and warp in stalkers and zealots to kill the drops. Implying that HT are the only way to deal with drops... really? What units do terran have to deal with drops, they can't warp in anything at all and are not very mobile either, even stimmed marines are alot slower than zerglings.
Think about what you are saying. In other words; Protoss needs to fully cannon up every base in case Terran gets a Starport? Because he MIGHT Drop in my main, or nat, or 3rd, so I'd better get 6 cannons a base because else I can't defend him? (You need about 6 to prevent blind spots, assuming you want 2 cannons supporting at all times) Terran doesn't need to defend against Protoss drops that fast; Stalkers dont deal as much DPS versus structures as say, Stimmed Marauders? Zealots can be beaten with liftoff. Protoss drops aren't scarry because Gateway units are weak as hell. You are not dropping a base to destroy buildings you are dropping to kill scvs, what game are you playing? "lol, have you heard of scan?, zerg is fine overlords, overseers are great at spotting drops, xel naga etc etc are you saying protoss has the advantage in map control now as well??? How am I whining, I'm saying the game is balanced fine as it is, you are the one whining for an amulet nerf...." I forgot only zerg and terran can use the xelnaga tower now and yeah scans are awesome against drops... and you are whining because terran drops are appearently OP (facepalm) and you can only hold off drops with HTs
nope not at all, I'm saying high templars are a nice addition to the protoss arsenal for defending drops, rather than having to spend ridiculous resources on cannons that CANNOT BE USED with the main army in important battles. I can't pick up my cannons in a warp prism and drop them in the terran base instantly can I? not to mention terran can just target the pylon or the unit i am warping in and continue to harass.
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On March 02 2011 16:44 nexkis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:42 ToastieNL wrote:On March 02 2011 16:40 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 16:37 ToastieNL wrote:On March 02 2011 14:39 nexkis wrote:
Or you could just build a few cannons here and there and warp in stalkers and zealots to kill the drops. Implying that HT are the only way to deal with drops... really? What units do terran have to deal with drops, they can't warp in anything at all and are not very mobile either, even stimmed marines are alot slower than zerglings.
Think about what you are saying. In other words; Protoss needs to fully cannon up every base in case Terran gets a Starport? Because he MIGHT Drop in my main, or nat, or 3rd, so I'd better get 6 cannons a base because else I can't defend him? (You need about 6 to prevent blind spots, assuming you want 2 cannons supporting at all times) Terran doesn't need to defend against Protoss drops that fast; Stalkers dont deal as much DPS versus structures as say, Stimmed Marauders? Zealots can be beaten with liftoff. Protoss drops aren't scarry because Gateway units are weak as hell. You are not dropping a base to destroy buildings you are dropping to kill scvs, what game are you playing? SCVs can run from Zealots and Stalkers with hardly any losses; Probes can't do the same to Marines and Marauders. I assumed worker harassment was already excluded. Stalkers are faster than marauders and marines and you are a random player? prove it, mr protoss. Anyway protoss is OP and most pros say that the amulett is a joke so it's good that it's being removed
What kind of retard is going to drop without Stim? Prove us you are actually a player? Mister GDI!?
Next to that, MM DPS is actually a tad higher than ZSs
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On March 02 2011 14:39 nexkis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:11 Ponyo wrote:
Storms used on marines without medivacs is super powerful. On the other hand Not really adressing your op, i wonder how you stop mass Banshee now that you can't warp in storm. Not sure if trolling... mass banshees? Euhm, maybe you might wanna build a few phoenixes? Never heard someone complain than mass banshees are unstoppable, just scout what he's doing and if you see him go mass banshees.... build phoenixes... problem solved. And you can still use High Templars on banshees, I don't know your post just doesn't make any sense at all. Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 14:03 Velocirapture wrote:
Let me put a little bit of perspective out there for zerg players. People keep saying that zerg cant just spawn units in their main to fend off drops and this is true but it is also completely unnecessary. The thing that zerg have that protoss dont have is mobility and efficient low tier units.
What was the unit that is so slow that TLO sad specifically it CANT be used off creep? the hydra of course What is the move speed of hydras off creep? 2.25 What other units have a 2.25 move speed?
zealots, sentries and collo
If that isnt convincing enough for zerg to understand the need for anti drop warp ins then lets take a look at the move speeds of your units. Speed roaches have a move speed of 3 OFF creep. This is faster than protoss "fast" unit the stalker. In fact speedlots (which require a long, 200/200 non robo tech path upgrade) move at 2.75 which is the speed of non upgraded roaches! And need i even mention speedlings, when they are on creep they are the fastest unit in the game, even faster than chargelots WHILE they are charging!
We all know just from playing the game that zerg is WAY more mobile than toss, but when you look at the numbers you get much more of a sense as to how extreme toss' mobility deficit is. Or you could just build a few cannons here and there and warp in stalkers and zealots to kill the drops. Implying that HT are the only way to deal with drops... really? What units do terran have to deal with drops, they can't warp in anything at all and are not very mobile either, even stimmed marines are alot slower than zerglings. Think about what you are saying.
This kind of post is the essence of everything that is wrong with starcraft analysis in these threads. I specifically spoke about why warp in was necessary for holding off terran drops, and your way of refuting what i said is to say that there is some sort of unfairness in the mirror matchup? This is beyond foolish and shortsighted. It is in fact you sir that should think before you type.
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On March 02 2011 16:45 TheGiftedApe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:40 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 16:37 ToastieNL wrote:On March 02 2011 14:39 nexkis wrote:
Or you could just build a few cannons here and there and warp in stalkers and zealots to kill the drops. Implying that HT are the only way to deal with drops... really? What units do terran have to deal with drops, they can't warp in anything at all and are not very mobile either, even stimmed marines are alot slower than zerglings.
Think about what you are saying. In other words; Protoss needs to fully cannon up every base in case Terran gets a Starport? Because he MIGHT Drop in my main, or nat, or 3rd, so I'd better get 6 cannons a base because else I can't defend him? (You need about 6 to prevent blind spots, assuming you want 2 cannons supporting at all times) Terran doesn't need to defend against Protoss drops that fast; Stalkers dont deal as much DPS versus structures as say, Stimmed Marauders? Zealots can be beaten with liftoff. Protoss drops aren't scarry because Gateway units are weak as hell. You are not dropping a base to destroy buildings you are dropping to kill scvs, what game are you playing? "lol, have you heard of scan?, zerg is fine overlords, overseers are great at spotting drops, xel naga etc etc are you saying protoss has the advantage in map control now as well??? How am I whining, I'm saying the game is balanced fine as it is, you are the one whining for an amulet nerf...." I forgot only zerg and terran can use the xelnaga tower now and yeah scans are awesome against drops... and you are whining because terran drops are appearently OP (facepalm) and you can only hold off drops with HTs nope not at all, I'm saying high templars are a nice addition to the protoss arsenal for defending drops, rather than having to spend ridiculous resources on cannons that CANNOT BE USED with the main army in important battles. I can't pick up my cannons in a warp prism and drop them in the terran base instantly can I? not to mention terran can just target the pylon or the unit i am warping in and continue to harass.
yeah terran can't use turrets in a big fight either... it's a necessary investement, stop whining.-
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On March 02 2011 16:47 nexkis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:45 TheGiftedApe wrote:On March 02 2011 16:40 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 16:37 ToastieNL wrote:On March 02 2011 14:39 nexkis wrote:
Or you could just build a few cannons here and there and warp in stalkers and zealots to kill the drops. Implying that HT are the only way to deal with drops... really? What units do terran have to deal with drops, they can't warp in anything at all and are not very mobile either, even stimmed marines are alot slower than zerglings.
Think about what you are saying. In other words; Protoss needs to fully cannon up every base in case Terran gets a Starport? Because he MIGHT Drop in my main, or nat, or 3rd, so I'd better get 6 cannons a base because else I can't defend him? (You need about 6 to prevent blind spots, assuming you want 2 cannons supporting at all times) Terran doesn't need to defend against Protoss drops that fast; Stalkers dont deal as much DPS versus structures as say, Stimmed Marauders? Zealots can be beaten with liftoff. Protoss drops aren't scarry because Gateway units are weak as hell. You are not dropping a base to destroy buildings you are dropping to kill scvs, what game are you playing? "lol, have you heard of scan?, zerg is fine overlords, overseers are great at spotting drops, xel naga etc etc are you saying protoss has the advantage in map control now as well??? How am I whining, I'm saying the game is balanced fine as it is, you are the one whining for an amulet nerf...." I forgot only zerg and terran can use the xelnaga tower now and yeah scans are awesome against drops... and you are whining because terran drops are appearently OP (facepalm) and you can only hold off drops with HTs nope not at all, I'm saying high templars are a nice addition to the protoss arsenal for defending drops, rather than having to spend ridiculous resources on cannons that CANNOT BE USED with the main army in important battles. I can't pick up my cannons in a warp prism and drop them in the terran base instantly can I? not to mention terran can just target the pylon or the unit i am warping in and continue to harass. yeah terran can't use turrets in a big fight either... it's a necessary investement, stop whining.-
I'm going to quit arguing. Enjoy your miserable life.
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On March 02 2011 16:47 ToastieNL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:44 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 16:42 ToastieNL wrote:On March 02 2011 16:40 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 16:37 ToastieNL wrote:On March 02 2011 14:39 nexkis wrote:
Or you could just build a few cannons here and there and warp in stalkers and zealots to kill the drops. Implying that HT are the only way to deal with drops... really? What units do terran have to deal with drops, they can't warp in anything at all and are not very mobile either, even stimmed marines are alot slower than zerglings.
Think about what you are saying. In other words; Protoss needs to fully cannon up every base in case Terran gets a Starport? Because he MIGHT Drop in my main, or nat, or 3rd, so I'd better get 6 cannons a base because else I can't defend him? (You need about 6 to prevent blind spots, assuming you want 2 cannons supporting at all times) Terran doesn't need to defend against Protoss drops that fast; Stalkers dont deal as much DPS versus structures as say, Stimmed Marauders? Zealots can be beaten with liftoff. Protoss drops aren't scarry because Gateway units are weak as hell. You are not dropping a base to destroy buildings you are dropping to kill scvs, what game are you playing? SCVs can run from Zealots and Stalkers with hardly any losses; Probes can't do the same to Marines and Marauders. I assumed worker harassment was already excluded. Stalkers are faster than marauders and marines and you are a random player? prove it, mr protoss. Anyway protoss is OP and most pros say that the amulett is a joke so it's good that it's being removed What kind of retard is going to drop without Stim? Prove us you are actually a player? Mister GDI!? Next to that, MM DPS is actually a tad higher than ZSs
What kind of retard doesn't scout drops?
See how easy that is?
User was banned for this post.
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On March 02 2011 14:57 nexkis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 14:53 jgelling wrote:Very good breakdown. I agree and I think that this will make protosses have to plan ahead more. I think Terran should have to plan ahead to use marauders, so I propose a 44 second nerf before they can start shooting. No seriously, it's not about planning. It's about defending from the stronger drop potential of Terrans, and the potential devastation of a few well-placed EMPs. And no Protoss can afford to leave HTs sitting all over the field, undefended, slowly charging. Not when they're so very immobile compared to all the other spellcasters in the game. 1 HT per base with 3 cannons can kill any drop and the cannons can also protect your HT at the same time and if he drops you with more than 2 medivacs you might just have to scout better.
So for every base, protss should have at least 1 tier 3 unit, plus 3 static defenses buildings just in case of a tier 1-2 terran drop... Yup that is perfectly balanced.....Instead of making a planetary fortress and being able to harras constantly while keeping our main army at home to defend right? sounds exactly fair..... why tech and expand when you can rely on tier 1-1.5 units to A move and win right? that's how the game should be played.. damn how could everyone have missed this?? So simple....
Or Toss could have half decent drop harras with a slightly nerfed(Maybe cant cast for the first 5 seconds ht) that can defend against drops... I would MUCH rather have a slight nerf to ht like they cant cast for the first 5 seconds they are warped in, coupled with a massive Collosi nerf... I'm sick of having to go collosi to win.... and all this patch is going to promote for protoss is to go collosi... we can tech to useless for 50 seconds ht(which if you haven't noticed is an already extremely long and unrewarding tech path...,or a extremely expensive stasis(Mother ship after much needed archon toilet nerf.)... or just go collosi and lol, which is retarded...
In short blizzard has successfully nerfed toss into "I have to make collosi or I lose." which IMO is no fun for anyone....
Please blizzard nerf collosi hard and give me a high templar with an initial casting cooldown of 5 seconds....
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On March 02 2011 16:51 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 14:57 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 14:53 jgelling wrote:Very good breakdown. I agree and I think that this will make protosses have to plan ahead more. I think Terran should have to plan ahead to use marauders, so I propose a 44 second nerf before they can start shooting. No seriously, it's not about planning. It's about defending from the stronger drop potential of Terrans, and the potential devastation of a few well-placed EMPs. And no Protoss can afford to leave HTs sitting all over the field, undefended, slowly charging. Not when they're so very immobile compared to all the other spellcasters in the game. 1 HT per base with 3 cannons can kill any drop and the cannons can also protect your HT at the same time and if he drops you with more than 2 medivacs you might just have to scout better. So for every base, protss should have at least 1 tier 3 unit, plus 3 static defenses buildings just in case of a tier 1-2 terran drop... Yup that is perfectly balanced.....Instead of making a planetary fortress and being able to harras constantly while keeping our main army at home to defend right? sounds exactly fair..... why tech and expand when you can rely on tier 1-1.5 units to A move and win right? that's how the game should be played.. damn how could everyone have missed this?? So simple.... Or Toss could have half decent drop harras with a slightly nerfed(Maybe cant cast for the first 5 seconds ht) that can defend against drops... I would MUCH rather have a slight nerf to ht like they cant cast for the first 5 seconds they are warped in, coupled with a massive Collosi nerf... I'm sick of having to go collosi to win.... and all this patch is going to promote for protoss is to go collosi... we can tech to useless for 50 seconds ht(which if you haven't noticed is an already extremely long and unrewarding tech path...,or a extremely expensive stasis(Mother ship after much needed archon toilet nerf.)... or just go collosi and lol, which is retarded... In short blizzard has successfully nerfed toss into "I have to make collosi or I lose." which IMO is no fun for anyone.... Please blizzard nerf collosi hard and give me a high templar with an initial casting cooldown of 5 seconds....
agreed 100%, alrdy made a thread in the PTR battle.net forums http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2140270790?page=1
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On March 02 2011 16:51 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 14:57 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 14:53 jgelling wrote:Very good breakdown. I agree and I think that this will make protosses have to plan ahead more. I think Terran should have to plan ahead to use marauders, so I propose a 44 second nerf before they can start shooting. No seriously, it's not about planning. It's about defending from the stronger drop potential of Terrans, and the potential devastation of a few well-placed EMPs. And no Protoss can afford to leave HTs sitting all over the field, undefended, slowly charging. Not when they're so very immobile compared to all the other spellcasters in the game. 1 HT per base with 3 cannons can kill any drop and the cannons can also protect your HT at the same time and if he drops you with more than 2 medivacs you might just have to scout better. So for every base, protss should have at least 1 tier 3 unit, plus 3 static defenses buildings just in case of a tier 1-2 terran drop... Yup that is perfectly balanced.....Instead of making a planetary fortress and being able to harras constantly while keeping our main army at home to defend right? sounds exactly fair..... why tech and expand when you can rely on tier 1-1.5 units to A move and win right? that's how the game should be played.. damn how could everyone have missed this?? So simple.... Or Toss could have half decent drop harras with a slightly nerfed(Maybe cant cast for the first 5 seconds ht) that can defend against drops... I would MUCH rather have a slight nerf to ht like they cant cast for the first 5 seconds they are warped in, coupled with a massive Collosi nerf... I'm sick of having to go collosi to win.... and all this patch is going to promote for protoss is to go collosi... we can tech to useless for 50 seconds ht(which if you haven't noticed is an already extremely long and unrewarding tech path...,or a extremely expensive stasis(Mother ship after much needed archon toilet nerf.)... or just go collosi and lol, which is retarded... In short blizzard has successfully nerfed toss into "I have to make collosi or I lose." which IMO is no fun for anyone.... Please blizzard nerf collosi hard and give me a high templar with an initial casting cooldown of 5 seconds....
Poor protoss they have to use some units to defend their base from drops... wait what?
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On March 02 2011 16:22 nexkis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:17 Parj wrote:On March 02 2011 06:28 DragonDefonce wrote:
I'll just explain why the amulet change is bullshit in PvT in a mid late game scenario. I'll let PvZ go because I think that match up is too early to call either way. Feel free to refute any point, but don't be like "oh well you shouldn't let it get to that point". I am assuming mid late game in a more or less equal standing, by similar yet competent players. Also, sorry if someone posted same points earlier, but I'm not gonna read 10 pages of discussion.
Facts:
1. Protoss basic units(zealot, stalker, sentry) get raped by M&M
2. Colossus and HT are powerful enough to make this an even fight, even with Terran's respective special units.
3. In the absence of special units, by fact 1, Protoss will lose to Terran once the game gets in mid/late stage in comparable economic/tech standing, and assuming both players are competent and have similar skill level.
4. Approximately 7 Vikings kill a colossus in 2 volleys, in reasonable upgrade differential.
5. 7 Vikings = 1050/525, 1 Colossus 300/200.
6.Because of 4 and 5, Colossus become less effective as the game drags on and thus Protoss relies on HT more. This is the current trend in most high level games.
7. Storm is a DoT and does less damage even when full damage is taken than the amount of shield that EMP takes away for most units.
8. Feedback is a targeting skill while EMP is an aoe, and thus, much harder to use. This is compounded by the fact that ghosts are extremely small and can cloak, thus not only harder to click on, but also harder to spot in the middle of large bionic army, and leaves room for cloaked emp.
9. Therefore, it can be argued that Terran has a very easy and effective methods of eliminating Protoss special units(colossus, ht, sentry too i guess), while protoss does not have easy way of killing the ghost, although they have reasonably effective way to disable the medivac and the raven.
10. Because of 1, in order for Protoss to be able to overcome 9 is to have quickly renewable source of either colossus or high templar that can cast storm, probably in the middle of the fight as either can be very quickly taken out or disabled early in the battle or before the battle even starts.
11. Colossus are not very easily replaceable.
12. Removing amulet makes resupplying high templar with enough mana to cast storm difficult.
13. If 1,9, and 12 are true, then all terran has to do is come out even in a fight, and attack again as soon as the reinforcement arrive.
14. Amulet upgrade would supply storm to be used so that 13 does not happen.
Thus, removing the Amulet breaks balance. Thank you for fixing the discussion on a logical way 7 pages ago, and everything said after was under just because nobody still countered you. Guys, that's the difference between talking about yours (subjectives) visions of the game versus a (objective) analysis of facts. It's called proof by verbosity and it's a logical fallacy, pretty much everything he said is bollox but nobody can't be bothered to adress all 14 points since it would consume too much time. The first point "protoss gate way units get raped by MMM" is a complete joke to beginn with.
Wow, so nobody can't adress all 14 points because it would consume too much time?Here is the fallacy.
BTW you don't need to argue 14 points, just showing us one false on his reasonnement.
That you tried to do by deny point 1, so i'll giving you the answer that you're are waiting for, point 1 is right because i have the time to argue.
So now we can really see that's a logical discussion is independant of time.
The only joke in this thread is....you.
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As I said before;
Couldn't a HT from a Gateway be spawned with 75 energy and a HT from a Warpgate with 50? Reduce buildtime to 20 Secs, so you can revert from Warpgate and Chronoboost a Templar out relativelly fast?
Well, guess you lost your gateway already... -,-.
Just face it; Protoss can't deal with Drops from Terran in a reasonably cost effective manner, not in any way without HTs. Leaving 50/150/2 at home with 900/0/0 in cannons IN CASE OF a drop is just not reasonable.
And Nexkis. Are you just plain dumb or are you just incapable of actually reinforcing your opinions with facts!?
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EPT
