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Khaydarin amulet analysis - Page 17

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable.
Geovu
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Estonia1344 Posts
March 02 2011 04:37 GMT
#321
Here's an idea:

1) Make gateway units good

2) Get rid of Collosus

3) Get rid of Warp Gates

PvT, PvZ and PvP (Yes PvP) are now balanced. At the very least you would stop the "LOL YOU HAVE HT INSTANTLY IMBAIMBAIMBA" and "LOL YOU HAVE THE COLLOSUS AND VOID RAYZ IMBAIMBAIMBA" arguments as to why you should nerf Protoss for the 20th patch.
thesauceishot
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada333 Posts
March 02 2011 04:38 GMT
#322
On March 02 2011 13:10 Donger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2011 13:02 thesauceishot wrote:
On March 02 2011 07:07 Sek-Kuar wrote:
On March 02 2011 06:58 thesauceishot wrote:
Is the 49.5 seconds for HT to have storm (without amulet) just 5 seconds for production time and 44.5 seconds for energy buildup? Why is gateway cooldown not factored in? How about the time for 2 HT to have storm compared to 2 ghosts having EMP?

People say storm drops are OP.. but then there's baneling drops or blue flame hellions that also devastate mineral lines. It's gonna be ridiculously hard to deal with drops without amulet now, since gateway units are so weak against Terran bio.


Its always same:

It takes 49,5 sec to get HT with 75 energy compared to 45 for Ghost, and 94,5 for 2 HT compared to 90 for 2 Ghost. With 1 Gate vs 1 Rax HT are always 4,5 sec behind with Storm, OFC having positional advantage and also much earlier Feedback.

Production rate of HT and Ghost is same, HT just have longer time to gain energy because of 40 sec faster build time, so w/o amulet its basically equal.


And cooldown is not factored because thats production cycle of previous unit, just like Terran can not get Ghost if he is building Marauder or Reaper.


So how long would it take to make 2 HT's with enough energy to storm without amulet and how long would it take to get 2 Ghosts with enough energy to EMP with upgrade?


It's stated in the OP and in the post you just quoted.

You can't ignore warpgate CD in-game, so you can't ignore it in an analysis.

The way I see it is that it takes 50 seconds to make a HT. 45 seconds for the CD and 5 seconds for the warp-in time. Only the very first HT after making a warpgate does not have a CD on it. Then another 44.5 seconds for the energy buildup. So if you're planning on making more than 1 HT in a game.. it's gonna take longer than 49.5 seconds to prepare a HT for storming.
Warrice
Profile Joined July 2010
United States565 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-02 04:39:44
March 02 2011 04:39 GMT
#323
Storm is just too strong, you can analyze all you want. but when my 200 200 army loses to a 120 food protoss army because im taking 20 damage per second wherever i go, then thats imbalanced.
junemermaid
Profile Joined September 2006
United States981 Posts
March 02 2011 04:58 GMT
#324
On March 02 2011 09:32 emc wrote:
decent analysis, so as a balance, perhaps lower the warp gate cool down to maybe 40 or even 35 seconds? I also think now that amulet is going to be removed, they should remove storm research and give it to the HT automatically it seems a bit unfair they have to research an ability that makes them more useful than just feedback.


Pretty much. The protoss army will hinge on the availability of storm against bio/viking. Giving the templar tech route no compensation for the removal of amulet is a little extreme.

The tech tree is way too expensive just for feedback as the default ability.
the UMP says YER OUT
TheGiftedApe
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1243 Posts
March 02 2011 05:00 GMT
#325
On March 02 2011 13:39 Warrice wrote:
Storm is just too strong, you can analyze all you want. but when my 200 200 army loses to a 120 food protoss army because im taking 20 damage per second wherever i go, then thats imbalanced.


or you could just walk away from the storms....
xO-Gaming.com || [xO]TheGiftedApe.364 || xO-Gaming Manager.
Velocirapture
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States983 Posts
March 02 2011 05:03 GMT
#326
Let me put a little bit of perspective out there for zerg players. People keep saying that zerg cant just spawn units in their main to fend off drops and this is true but it is also completely unnecessary. The thing that zerg have that protoss dont have is mobility and efficient low tier units.
What was the unit that is so slow that TLO sad specifically it CANT be used off creep? the hydra of course What is the move speed of hydras off creep? 2.25 What other units have a 2.25 move speed?
zealots, sentries and collo
If that isnt convincing enough for zerg to understand the need for anti drop warp ins then lets take a look at the move speeds of your units. Speed roaches have a move speed of 3 OFF creep. This is faster than protoss "fast" unit the stalker. In fact speedlots (which require a long, 200/200 non robo tech path upgrade) move at 2.75 which is the speed of non upgraded roaches! And need i even mention speedlings, when they are on creep they are the fastest unit in the game, even faster than chargelots WHILE they are charging!

We all know just from playing the game that zerg is WAY more mobile than toss, but when you look at the numbers you get much more of a sense as to how extreme toss' mobility deficit is.
cpmoney
Profile Joined September 2010
34 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-02 05:15:16
March 02 2011 05:14 GMT
#327
HTs are already quite fragile and slow. Perhaps the warp in time of the HT in particular should be lengthened. That way the Protoss will have to warp in farther away from enemy units. Blizzard needs to make small changes like this and wait to see what works, nothing crazy like removing warp gates entirely. The game is still very new relative to its older brother
cheesemaster
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada1975 Posts
March 02 2011 05:22 GMT
#328
On March 02 2011 11:01 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2011 10:43 methematics wrote:

Since when is production time 5 secs for gateway units. Take this example: i wanna build 100 ht outta 5 gateways, thats 20 per gateway. so it should only take me 100 secs (1min 40secs) to warp in a maxed ht army right???? your analysis is very flawed.



My logic is not flawed. Your problem is that you, like many other players, are simply assuming that production rate and build time is same thing. That might be true for most Terran and Protoss units with standard production cycle, but not for Zerg units and Warpgate units.


So for example reactored Factory can build 4 Helions in minute, but it doesnt mean that production time of Helion is reduced to 15 seconds. It only doubles production rate.

Another example: Zerg can get 10 Ultralisk from one Hatchery per minute (with no stockpiled larvae) - thats production rate. It doesnt mean that production time is 6 seconds. Production time is always 70 seconds.

Warpgate timeline:
0:05 HT created (1)
0:45 cooldown expires
0:50 HT created (2)
1:30 cooldown expires
1:35 HT created (3)
2:15 cooldown expires

Barrack with Tech Lab timeline:
0:45 Ghost created (1)
1:30 Ghost created (2)
2:15 Ghost created (3)

So as you can see, you are getting every unit, not just first, with 40 seconds reduced build time.

All that cooldown does is keeping same production rate. But build time is 5 seconds.




You can not say that because you can build one HT per 45 seconds, that HT is building 45 seconds. It takes 5 seconds to get him, thus build time is 5 seconds.

I agree with that but doesnt it only make a difference for the first HT that pops out per gateway, the build time for the FIRST ht is 5 seconds that i can agree with but you cant just say the build time for an HT is five seconds the cooldown after that makes it inherently longer, if you build a ghost every 45 seconds you will catch up to the extra HT over time so by your math excluding the first HT wich is just part of protoss's mechanics that they warp in and then there is a cooldown its actually quicker to get ghosts out. Not to mention ghosts are lower tiered units and are easier and less expensive to get out in the first place.
Slayers_MMA The terran who beats terrans
PXShaman
Profile Joined September 2010
14 Posts
March 02 2011 05:23 GMT
#329
So with this nerf coming, how can protoss deal with mass mutas??
cheesemaster
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada1975 Posts
March 02 2011 05:30 GMT
#330
On March 02 2011 14:23 PXShaman wrote:
So with this nerf coming, how can protoss deal with mass mutas??

another very good point i honestly dont see how this can go live, even pros of different races dont agree with this change for the most part, I remember watching miniguns stream almost a month ago when david kim asked him what he thought about getting rid of kaydarian amulet, minigun said he thought it was fine, im sure there minority of terran pros that complain constantly about this and the fact that david kim (dayvie) even though he plays random everyone knows terran is his real main. I hope they dont ignore the community ive just recently started practicing alot with HT"s and i love how they work but i guarantee i wont use them nearly as much if this change is put in place.
Slayers_MMA The terran who beats terrans
Subversion
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
South Africa3627 Posts
March 02 2011 05:31 GMT
#331
OP - Why do you agree that a nerf of HT must equal a buff of a lower tech unit?

You spend so much time arguing that the upgrade removal makes the casters across the races balanced. So if the removal of the upgrade results in a near-perfect balance, why a need for a buff?

You're saying HT is getting nerfed because its too powerful, and needs to be on an equal level with the other casters. If something is nerfed because its OP, that race doesn't need some kind of consolation buff.
nexkis
Profile Joined February 2011
United States28 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-02 05:35:26
March 02 2011 05:34 GMT
#332
On March 02 2011 04:11 Ponyo wrote:
Storms used on marines without medivacs is super powerful. On the other hand Not really adressing your op, i wonder how you stop mass Banshee now that you can't warp in storm.


Not sure if trolling... mass banshees? Euhm, maybe you might wanna build a few phoenixes? Never heard someone complain than mass banshees are unstoppable, just scout what he's doing and if you see him go mass banshees.... build phoenixes... problem solved.

And you can still use High Templars on banshees, I don't know your post just doesn't make any sense at all.
TheGiftedApe
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1243 Posts
March 02 2011 05:36 GMT
#333
if they get rid of amulet they should get rid of all the upgardes that give spell casters extra energy, otherwise they are just putting a band aid on a bigger problem. all the spell casters have upgrades for extra mana when spawned, if the only spellcaster without this upgrade is Ht's it would seem to say that storm is OP not- the amulet. I really dont see the problem with storm at all, I watch terran stim and run away form my storm and INSTANT re-heal with medivac all the time then TOTALLY roll my gateway army....
xO-Gaming.com || [xO]TheGiftedApe.364 || xO-Gaming Manager.
PXShaman
Profile Joined September 2010
14 Posts
March 02 2011 05:38 GMT
#334
On March 02 2011 14:30 cheesemaster wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2011 14:23 PXShaman wrote:
So with this nerf coming, how can protoss deal with mass mutas??

another very good point i honestly dont see how this can go live, even pros of different races dont agree with this change for the most part, I remember watching miniguns stream almost a month ago when david kim asked him what he thought about getting rid of kaydarian amulet, minigun said he thought it was fine, im sure there minority of terran pros that complain constantly about this and the fact that david kim (dayvie) even though he plays random everyone knows terran is his real main. I hope they dont ignore the community ive just recently started practicing alot with HT"s and i love how they work but i guarantee i wont use them nearly as much if this change is put in place.


woah woah jack daniel, ur getting off topic
Protoss lack any practical AoE after this patch. ( or multiple unit damage)
Terran - Thor's (AA), Siege tanks, Hellions, Seeker missiles
Zerg - Banelings, Infestors (after patch are more helpful against MMM)

Shit you could even add Ultralisk and broodlords too since their attacks are not limited to just 1 unit.

Protoss are a bit lacking, they only have 2 units, HT, and Colossus, and Storm won't be available that long. Especially if your a feedback spammer like me.
Like fuck for real fuck fuck mofo fuck
nexkis
Profile Joined February 2011
United States28 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-02 05:41:18
March 02 2011 05:39 GMT
#335
On March 02 2011 14:34 nexkis wrote:

On March 02 2011 04:11 Ponyo wrote:
Storms used on marines without medivacs is super powerful. On the other hand Not really adressing your op, i wonder how you stop mass Banshee now that you can't warp in storm.


Not sure if trolling... mass banshees? Euhm, maybe you might wanna build a few phoenixes? Never heard someone complain than mass banshees are unstoppable, just scout what he's doing and if you see him go mass banshees.... build phoenixes... problem solved.

And you can still use High Templars on banshees, I don't know your post just doesn't make any sense at all.

On March 02 2011 14:03 Velocirapture wrote:
Let me put a little bit of perspective out there for zerg players. People keep saying that zerg cant just spawn units in their main to fend off drops and this is true but it is also completely unnecessary. The thing that zerg have that protoss dont have is mobility and efficient low tier units.
What was the unit that is so slow that TLO sad specifically it CANT be used off creep? the hydra of course What is the move speed of hydras off creep? 2.25 What other units have a 2.25 move speed?
zealots, sentries and collo
If that isnt convincing enough for zerg to understand the need for anti drop warp ins then lets take a look at the move speeds of your units. Speed roaches have a move speed of 3 OFF creep. This is faster than protoss "fast" unit the stalker. In fact speedlots (which require a long, 200/200 non robo tech path upgrade) move at 2.75 which is the speed of non upgraded roaches! And need i even mention speedlings, when they are on creep they are the fastest unit in the game, even faster than chargelots WHILE they are charging!

We all know just from playing the game that zerg is WAY more mobile than toss, but when you look at the numbers you get much more of a sense as to how extreme toss' mobility deficit is.


Or you could just build a few cannons here and there and warp in stalkers and zealots to kill the drops. Implying that HT are the only way to deal with drops... really? What units do terran have to deal with drops, they can't warp in anything at all and are not very mobile either, even stimmed marines are alot slower than zerglings.

Think about what you are saying.
L3g3nd_
Profile Joined July 2010
New Zealand10461 Posts
March 02 2011 05:42 GMT
#336
On March 02 2011 13:37 Geovu wrote:
Here's an idea:

1) Make gateway units good

2) Get rid of Collosus

3) Get rid of Warp Gates

PvT, PvZ and PvP (Yes PvP) are now balanced. At the very least you would stop the "LOL YOU HAVE HT INSTANTLY IMBAIMBAIMBA" and "LOL YOU HAVE THE COLLOSUS AND VOID RAYZ IMBAIMBAIMBA" arguments as to why you should nerf Protoss for the 20th patch.

to a certain extent i agree with this, although it is awefully like BW if you do this (reaver for immortal, and scout for phnx, and void added) and its pretty much the exact same protoss.

there are issues with collosus and warp gates imo, thats why PvP is dominated by those 2 features of the race

also, i play toss
https://twitter.com/#!/IrisAnother
nexkis
Profile Joined February 2011
United States28 Posts
March 02 2011 05:43 GMT
#337
On March 02 2011 14:38 PXShaman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2011 14:30 cheesemaster wrote:
On March 02 2011 14:23 PXShaman wrote:
So with this nerf coming, how can protoss deal with mass mutas??

another very good point i honestly dont see how this can go live, even pros of different races dont agree with this change for the most part, I remember watching miniguns stream almost a month ago when david kim asked him what he thought about getting rid of kaydarian amulet, minigun said he thought it was fine, im sure there minority of terran pros that complain constantly about this and the fact that david kim (dayvie) even though he plays random everyone knows terran is his real main. I hope they dont ignore the community ive just recently started practicing alot with HT"s and i love how they work but i guarantee i wont use them nearly as much if this change is put in place.


woah woah jack daniel, ur getting off topic
Protoss lack any practical AoE after this patch. ( or multiple unit damage)
Terran - Thor's (AA), Siege tanks, Hellions, Seeker missiles
Zerg - Banelings, Infestors (after patch are more helpful against MMM)

Shit you could even add Ultralisk and broodlords too since their attacks are not limited to just 1 unit.

Protoss are a bit lacking, they only have 2 units, HT, and Colossus, and Storm won't be available that long. Especially if your a feedback spammer like me.
Like fuck for real fuck fuck mofo fuck


Yeah or you could just scout his mass mutalisks and warp in your templars early enough so that storm is already ready... problem solved.
TheGiftedApe
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1243 Posts
March 02 2011 05:47 GMT
#338
On March 02 2011 14:43 nexkis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2011 14:38 PXShaman wrote:
On March 02 2011 14:30 cheesemaster wrote:
On March 02 2011 14:23 PXShaman wrote:
So with this nerf coming, how can protoss deal with mass mutas??

another very good point i honestly dont see how this can go live, even pros of different races dont agree with this change for the most part, I remember watching miniguns stream almost a month ago when david kim asked him what he thought about getting rid of kaydarian amulet, minigun said he thought it was fine, im sure there minority of terran pros that complain constantly about this and the fact that david kim (dayvie) even though he plays random everyone knows terran is his real main. I hope they dont ignore the community ive just recently started practicing alot with HT"s and i love how they work but i guarantee i wont use them nearly as much if this change is put in place.


woah woah jack daniel, ur getting off topic
Protoss lack any practical AoE after this patch. ( or multiple unit damage)
Terran - Thor's (AA), Siege tanks, Hellions, Seeker missiles
Zerg - Banelings, Infestors (after patch are more helpful against MMM)

Shit you could even add Ultralisk and broodlords too since their attacks are not limited to just 1 unit.

Protoss are a bit lacking, they only have 2 units, HT, and Colossus, and Storm won't be available that long. Especially if your a feedback spammer like me.
Like fuck for real fuck fuck mofo fuck


Yeah or you could just scout his mass mutalisks and warp in your templars early enough so that storm is already ready... problem solved.


rofl, if you can scout and predict what the terran is doing 25 seconds in advnaced you dont even need units cause you have maphacks....
xO-Gaming.com || [xO]TheGiftedApe.364 || xO-Gaming Manager.
StarBrift
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden1761 Posts
March 02 2011 05:47 GMT
#339
Very good breakdown. I agree and I think that this will make protosses have to plan ahead more. Additionally this will stop instantaneous coutner attacks that protoss can do lategame vs terran when they have templar tech. Even if a protoss loses all his units and a terran does too, the protoss would allways have been at an advantage because he could warp in templars at the battlesite and win. Now he has to warp them in back home and wait. So the defensive possibilities are still there for HTs but they can't singlehandedly lead an effective offensive.
PXShaman
Profile Joined September 2010
14 Posts
March 02 2011 05:49 GMT
#340
On March 02 2011 14:43 nexkis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2011 14:38 PXShaman wrote:
On March 02 2011 14:30 cheesemaster wrote:
On March 02 2011 14:23 PXShaman wrote:
So with this nerf coming, how can protoss deal with mass mutas??

another very good point i honestly dont see how this can go live, even pros of different races dont agree with this change for the most part, I remember watching miniguns stream almost a month ago when david kim asked him what he thought about getting rid of kaydarian amulet, minigun said he thought it was fine, im sure there minority of terran pros that complain constantly about this and the fact that david kim (dayvie) even though he plays random everyone knows terran is his real main. I hope they dont ignore the community ive just recently started practicing alot with HT"s and i love how they work but i guarantee i wont use them nearly as much if this change is put in place.


woah woah jack daniel, ur getting off topic
Protoss lack any practical AoE after this patch. ( or multiple unit damage)
Terran - Thor's (AA), Siege tanks, Hellions, Seeker missiles
Zerg - Banelings, Infestors (after patch are more helpful against MMM)

Shit you could even add Ultralisk and broodlords too since their attacks are not limited to just 1 unit.

Protoss are a bit lacking, they only have 2 units, HT, and Colossus, and Storm won't be available that long. Especially if your a feedback spammer like me.
Like fuck for real fuck fuck mofo fuck


Yeah or you could just scout his mass mutalisks and warp in your templars early enough so that storm is already ready... problem solved.


It takes time to do all of that. You can not scout a zerg without a robo bay, and by the time you get HT's up you will already be destroyed. Now with this amulet nerf you will probably see way more archon play, but for some reason archons are retarded in bases. I forgot Archons in my previous post, they are boss against zerg
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