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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 02 2011 14:47 TheGiftedApe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 14:43 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 14:38 PXShaman wrote:On March 02 2011 14:30 cheesemaster wrote:On March 02 2011 14:23 PXShaman wrote:
So with this nerf coming, how can protoss deal with mass mutas??
another very good point i honestly dont see how this can go live, even pros of different races dont agree with this change for the most part, I remember watching miniguns stream almost a month ago when david kim asked him what he thought about getting rid of kaydarian amulet, minigun said he thought it was fine, im sure there minority of terran pros that complain constantly about this and the fact that david kim (dayvie) even though he plays random everyone knows terran is his real main. I hope they dont ignore the community ive just recently started practicing alot with HT"s and i love how they work but i guarantee i wont use them nearly as much if this change is put in place. woah woah jack daniel, ur getting off topic Protoss lack any practical AoE after this patch. ( or multiple unit damage) Terran - Thor's (AA), Siege tanks, Hellions, Seeker missiles Zerg - Banelings, Infestors (after patch are more helpful against MMM) Shit you could even add Ultralisk and broodlords too since their attacks are not limited to just 1 unit. Protoss are a bit lacking, they only have 2 units, HT, and Colossus, and Storm won't be available that long. Especially if your a feedback spammer like me. Like fuck for real fuck fuck mofo fuck Yeah or you could just scout his mass mutalisks and warp in your templars early enough so that storm is already ready... problem solved. rofl, if you can scout and predict what the terran is doing 25 seconds in advnaced you dont even need units cause you have maphacks....
Why 25 seconds? teching to mass banshees, mass mutaliks takes minutes, what are you talking about?
On March 02 2011 14:49 PXShaman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 14:43 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 14:38 PXShaman wrote:On March 02 2011 14:30 cheesemaster wrote:On March 02 2011 14:23 PXShaman wrote:
So with this nerf coming, how can protoss deal with mass mutas??
another very good point i honestly dont see how this can go live, even pros of different races dont agree with this change for the most part, I remember watching miniguns stream almost a month ago when david kim asked him what he thought about getting rid of kaydarian amulet, minigun said he thought it was fine, im sure there minority of terran pros that complain constantly about this and the fact that david kim (dayvie) even though he plays random everyone knows terran is his real main. I hope they dont ignore the community ive just recently started practicing alot with HT"s and i love how they work but i guarantee i wont use them nearly as much if this change is put in place. woah woah jack daniel, ur getting off topic Protoss lack any practical AoE after this patch. ( or multiple unit damage) Terran - Thor's (AA), Siege tanks, Hellions, Seeker missiles Zerg - Banelings, Infestors (after patch are more helpful against MMM) Shit you could even add Ultralisk and broodlords too since their attacks are not limited to just 1 unit. Protoss are a bit lacking, they only have 2 units, HT, and Colossus, and Storm won't be available that long. Especially if your a feedback spammer like me. Like fuck for real fuck fuck mofo fuck Yeah or you could just scout his mass mutalisks and warp in your templars early enough so that storm is already ready... problem solved. It takes time to do all of that. You can not scout a zerg without a robo bay, and by the time you get HT's up you will already be destroyed. Now with this amulet nerf you will probably see way more archon play, but for some reason archons are retarded in bases. I forgot Archons in my previous post, they are boss against zerg
So what you are saying is that it's impossible for protoss to scout a mass mutalisk build? Really? by the time he gets his spire you can have 5 robotics and 20 observers on the field.
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On March 02 2011 14:30 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 14:23 PXShaman wrote:
So with this nerf coming, how can protoss deal with mass mutas??
another very good point i honestly dont see how this can go live, even pros of different races dont agree with this change for the most part, I remember watching miniguns stream almost a month ago when david kim asked him what he thought about getting rid of kaydarian amulet, minigun said he thought it was fine, im sure there minority of terran pros that complain constantly about this and the fact that david kim (dayvie) even though he plays random everyone knows terran is his real main. I hope they dont ignore the community ive just recently started practicing alot with HT"s and i love how they work but i guarantee i wont use them nearly as much if this change is put in place.
Protoss has been dealing with mutas with either 5-6 gate timings or double stargate mass phoenix. No top protoss sits around teching to templars just to counter mutas. That might be true for bronze->plat level players but it is definately not for the top end of the ladder.
Please do not argue imbalance when you clearly have no clue as to what the standard responses are to certain things.
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Very good breakdown. I agree and I think that this will make protosses have to plan ahead more.
I think Terran should have to plan ahead to use marauders, so I propose a 44 second nerf before they can start shooting.
No seriously, it's not about planning. It's about defending from the stronger drop potential of Terrans, and the potential devastation of a few well-placed EMPs. And no Protoss can afford to leave HTs sitting all over the field, undefended, slowly charging. Not when they're so very immobile compared to all the other spellcasters in the game.
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On March 02 2011 14:51 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 14:30 cheesemaster wrote:On March 02 2011 14:23 PXShaman wrote:
So with this nerf coming, how can protoss deal with mass mutas??
another very good point i honestly dont see how this can go live, even pros of different races dont agree with this change for the most part, I remember watching miniguns stream almost a month ago when david kim asked him what he thought about getting rid of kaydarian amulet, minigun said he thought it was fine, im sure there minority of terran pros that complain constantly about this and the fact that david kim (dayvie) even though he plays random everyone knows terran is his real main. I hope they dont ignore the community ive just recently started practicing alot with HT"s and i love how they work but i guarantee i wont use them nearly as much if this change is put in place. Protoss has been dealing with mutas with either 5-6 gate timings or double stargate mass phoenix. No top protoss sits around teching to templars just to counter mutas. That might be true for bronze->plat level players but it is definately not for the top end of the ladder. Please do not argue imbalance when you clearly have no clue as to what the standard responses are to certain things.
sure you talk about dealing with players that open muta, but they arent guraunteed to win with the 6gate, games with pros do go to mid-late stages of the game with the Z having high muta numbers, there was a Huk game on Shakuras (maybe on a daily) where the only reason he held off the muta ling/muta was with his storms (or maybe it was LT? or maybe im thinking of 2 games =/)
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On March 02 2011 14:53 jgelling wrote:Show nested quote +Very good breakdown. I agree and I think that this will make protosses have to plan ahead more. I think Terran should have to plan ahead to use marauders, so I propose a 44 second nerf before they can start shooting. No seriously, it's not about planning. It's about defending from the stronger drop potential of Terrans, and the potential devastation of a few well-placed EMPs. And no Protoss can afford to leave HTs sitting all over the field, undefended, slowly charging. Not when they're so very immobile compared to all the other spellcasters in the game.
1 HT per base with 3 cannons can kill any drop and the cannons can also protect your HT at the same time and if he drops you with more than 2 medivacs you might just have to scout better.
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On March 02 2011 14:51 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 14:30 cheesemaster wrote:On March 02 2011 14:23 PXShaman wrote:
So with this nerf coming, how can protoss deal with mass mutas??
another very good point i honestly dont see how this can go live, even pros of different races dont agree with this change for the most part, I remember watching miniguns stream almost a month ago when david kim asked him what he thought about getting rid of kaydarian amulet, minigun said he thought it was fine, im sure there minority of terran pros that complain constantly about this and the fact that david kim (dayvie) even though he plays random everyone knows terran is his real main. I hope they dont ignore the community ive just recently started practicing alot with HT"s and i love how they work but i guarantee i wont use them nearly as much if this change is put in place. Protoss has been dealing with mutas with either 5-6 gate timings or double stargate mass phoenix. No top protoss sits around teching to templars just to counter mutas. That might be true for bronze->plat level players but it is definately not for the top end of the ladder. Please do not argue imbalance when you clearly have no clue as to what the standard responses are to certain things.
this is just completely untrue; 5-6 gate is strong vs muta and phoenix can be as well, but its easy to have already not done that (you need to open with those strategies before you can be sure its mass muta) and if so the standard response is upgraded blink stalker into storm. this has happened in a lot of pro games i've watched and its normal play for master's league ladder as well. for someone so condescending you're awfully ignorant on the subject.
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I don't think the OP's question "Does it balance spellcasters" is fruitful in any real way. "Does it balance the game" is, of course, the real matter at hand. Sure, storm drops are strong. But how are warp prisms getting into your base? Look at the mini-map. Sure they're great against marine balls. I think this is a bit of a heavy-handed change and it's only on PTR to get its feet wet a bit. Templar without +25 energy just feel -so weak- in lategame.
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2nd ryc
If you don't 6 gate and shut it down then you're next step is the blink stalkers and then the templar archives. Mass muta can and has killed toss. The lack of much anti air splash makes it a permanent threat.
Some of these posts are absolutely ridiculous. QXC huk games on scrap are case A in any argument that hts do not need to be nerfed in regards to drops.
Also those drops do not seem so high risk high reward. You're already getting the medivac and marines along your normal tech route and 9/10 unless there is overwhelming force they more than pay for themselves.
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On March 02 2011 14:49 PXShaman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 14:43 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 14:38 PXShaman wrote:On March 02 2011 14:30 cheesemaster wrote:On March 02 2011 14:23 PXShaman wrote:
So with this nerf coming, how can protoss deal with mass mutas??
another very good point i honestly dont see how this can go live, even pros of different races dont agree with this change for the most part, I remember watching miniguns stream almost a month ago when david kim asked him what he thought about getting rid of kaydarian amulet, minigun said he thought it was fine, im sure there minority of terran pros that complain constantly about this and the fact that david kim (dayvie) even though he plays random everyone knows terran is his real main. I hope they dont ignore the community ive just recently started practicing alot with HT"s and i love how they work but i guarantee i wont use them nearly as much if this change is put in place. woah woah jack daniel, ur getting off topic Protoss lack any practical AoE after this patch. ( or multiple unit damage) Terran - Thor's (AA), Siege tanks, Hellions, Seeker missiles Zerg - Banelings, Infestors (after patch are more helpful against MMM) Shit you could even add Ultralisk and broodlords too since their attacks are not limited to just 1 unit. Protoss are a bit lacking, they only have 2 units, HT, and Colossus, and Storm won't be available that long. Especially if your a feedback spammer like me. Like fuck for real fuck fuck mofo fuck Yeah or you could just scout his mass mutalisks and warp in your templars early enough so that storm is already ready... problem solved. It takes time to do all of that. You can not scout a zerg without a robo bay, and by the time you get HT's up you will already be destroyed. Now with this amulet nerf you will probably see way more archon play, but for some reason archons are retarded in bases. I forgot Archons in my previous post, they are boss against zerg
So what you are saying is that it's impossible for protoss to scout a mass mutalisk build? Really? by the time he gets his spire you can have 5 robotics and 20 observers on the field.[/QUOTE]
Herp de durp U make a good point, I will beat mass muta's by making 20 observers so I KNOW FOR A FACT that he has a spire, NO INCH OF CREEP WILL GO UNSEEN way to miss a point.
On March 02 2011 14:51 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 14:30 cheesemaster wrote:On March 02 2011 14:23 PXShaman wrote:
So with this nerf coming, how can protoss deal with mass mutas??
another very good point i honestly dont see how this can go live, even pros of different races dont agree with this change for the most part, I remember watching miniguns stream almost a month ago when david kim asked him what he thought about getting rid of kaydarian amulet, minigun said he thought it was fine, im sure there minority of terran pros that complain constantly about this and the fact that david kim (dayvie) even though he plays random everyone knows terran is his real main. I hope they dont ignore the community ive just recently started practicing alot with HT"s and i love how they work but i guarantee i wont use them nearly as much if this change is put in place. Protoss has been dealing with mutas with either 5-6 gate timings or double stargate mass phoenix. No top protoss sits around teching to templars just to counter mutas. That might be true for bronze->plat level players but it is definately not for the top end of the ladder. Please do not argue imbalance when you clearly have no clue as to what the standard responses are to certain things.
Plz don't act like an ass, this is the wrong site to be acting like an internet bad ass. These new maps have the natural patch right next to eachother so its easy for FLYING muta's to switch between bases. A land army can not keep up and instant storm is pretty helpful diverting those nasty fuckers
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On March 02 2011 15:09 PXShaman wrote:
Herp de durp U make a good point, I will beat mass muta's by making 20 observers so I KNOW FOR A FACT that he has a spire, NO INCH OF CREEP WILL GO UNSEEN way to miss a point.
Plz don't act like an ass, this is the wrong site to be acting like an internet bad ass. These new maps have the natural patch right next to eachother so its easy for FLYING muta's to switch between bases. A land army can not keep up and instant storm is pretty helpful diverting those nasty fuckers
U trolling yeah? You could also just make 1 observer and scout his spire... and you can always make cannons.. just like zerg can make spores and terran can make turrets against mutalisk, and like I said 1 HT per base and a few cannons and mutas won't do anything.
You can stop trolling now.
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It's kind of funny that people think this is a bad idea. A few months ago inControl compared Khaydarin Amulet to the wonder from Ages of Empires (you instantly win). Protoss players know that the trouble has always been safely teching to HT, but once you got KA you had such a large advantage it was tough to lose. Without KA, HT retain their potency, but they simply must be built before you want to use them.
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Shouldn't the overall comparison be that it takes Protoss 5 seconds to get the initial storm on the field but a balanced 50 seconds to get every successive storm on the field?
So the only real difference is that if and only if the Protoss has inactive warp-gates, that they'll get the first storm on the field ~40-45 seconds before Zerg and Terran get their equivalent caster AoEs?
Wouldn't the fact that Infestors and Ghosts are lower tech units that require less overall investment in terms of time and resources have something to do with this minute difference? I don't see any reason why Ghosts shouldn't be out on the field in TvP before Templars -- just that there should probably be more ghosts out on the field after Templars -- so assuming constant production, the Terran will always have more Ghosts and more EMPs? And, while I don't think Infestor usage is as much of a staple, the same would apply to Infestors?
Seems pretty insignificant to me and I hope this isn't why they completely removed Khaydarin Amulet.
Really, the issue with warp-in, storm-ready Templars is the risk / reward ratio.
You send in an empty warp-prism to warp-in storm-ready HT and if your warp-prism gets picked off, you lose 200 minerals. If they get it after the HT are warped in, chances are you already got the storms off. Risk? Little. Reward? A lot.
Similar drops from Z and even T have much higher risk.
You lose a battle, fall back to a forward pylon, warp in some HTs, and 5-seconds later, Storms are raining down on your enemies.
Similar reinforcement from T and Z have higher risk and time. If they're rallying to the front, it takes time to get there and they're vulnerable en route.
Really, the issue is the 5-second window of vulnerability for warped in HT. That window is too small and is too hard to punish. It's reward without much risk.
But the flip-side, which is the situation we're in now with the total and complete removal of Khaydarin Amulet tips the scales to the other side where there is just too much risk.
You send in a warp prism to warp-in templars to storm... you warp in 2~4 HT and have to sit there, open to enemy reaction and defense for 44 seconds. You lose that harassment squad and you're down 300/300~400/600 minerals/gas. If you warp-in the HT ahead of time and then load them into a warp-prism to transport over, you risk losing them in transit. And, before you say "well, other races have to deal with that risk," 1 warp-prism with at least 2 storms worth of damage > 1 medivac and 8 marines in cost. With the removal of Khaydarin Amulet, the only cost effective Protoss econ harassment is gone. People often wonder why Protoss don't use warp-prisms more... it's because the cost efficiency and dps in harassment isn't there.
In reinforcement, For a full 44 seconds, the HT will be exposed. If we choose to warp them in at a safer location more removed from the battle-field, they now have to walk to the front at their snail pace -- an issue that is not balanced since both Ghosts and Infestors move significantly faster and, given they have their energy upgrades, are protected while they are "building energy."
So I think the base assumption, that casters are now balanced, is just wrong.
To be honest, I agree with many who speak on the matter and believe the complete removal of an upgrade of any sort was too extreme. Out of all the suggestions for an alternative fix, I like the addition of a cool down. Something like a 10~20 second cool down that is initially triggered upon warp-in. That way, they can still keep the amulet upgrade in but it leaves a larger window to punish the P after you get some good EMPs, kill their army, or spot a drop.
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The main problem is that when there is a huge fight and T or Z screw up their emps or fungals they are pretty much screwed, but if protoss screw up their storm they can just instantely warp in new templars and use more storms.
Protoss doesn't get punished nearly as much as Zerg or Terran does for screwing up a spell. And it's also imbalanced since especially as a Terran if you cast a perfect EMP or even two, your ghosts are low on energy and you might kill a whole bunch of the P army then, but there is nothing that stops the protoss from just warping in new templars and storm the rest of the terran army, but the terran needs to prebuild his ghosts AND wait for them to run to the battlefield then.
Let's say the terran had 4 ghosts and EMPD all the protoss templars (who were split up so you had to use 3-4 emps) now you don't have any EMPS left and whilst the protoss doesn't have any storms either he can just warp in new templars and is now actually at an advantage because he has way more spellcaster with enough energy to cast spells then you do, even though you won the EMP/Feedback/Storm/whatever fight.
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This entire thread could be summed up as:
- Ht gains energy effectively while its being produced (ie while warpgates are cooling down), therefore It kind of comes with an energy upgrade, making it equivalent to other casters.
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On March 02 2011 14:50 nexkis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 14:47 TheGiftedApe wrote:On March 02 2011 14:43 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 14:38 PXShaman wrote:On March 02 2011 14:30 cheesemaster wrote:On March 02 2011 14:23 PXShaman wrote:
So with this nerf coming, how can protoss deal with mass mutas??
another very good point i honestly dont see how this can go live, even pros of different races dont agree with this change for the most part, I remember watching miniguns stream almost a month ago when david kim asked him what he thought about getting rid of kaydarian amulet, minigun said he thought it was fine, im sure there minority of terran pros that complain constantly about this and the fact that david kim (dayvie) even though he plays random everyone knows terran is his real main. I hope they dont ignore the community ive just recently started practicing alot with HT"s and i love how they work but i guarantee i wont use them nearly as much if this change is put in place. woah woah jack daniel, ur getting off topic Protoss lack any practical AoE after this patch. ( or multiple unit damage) Terran - Thor's (AA), Siege tanks, Hellions, Seeker missiles Zerg - Banelings, Infestors (after patch are more helpful against MMM) Shit you could even add Ultralisk and broodlords too since their attacks are not limited to just 1 unit. Protoss are a bit lacking, they only have 2 units, HT, and Colossus, and Storm won't be available that long. Especially if your a feedback spammer like me. Like fuck for real fuck fuck mofo fuck Yeah or you could just scout his mass mutalisks and warp in your templars early enough so that storm is already ready... problem solved. rofl, if you can scout and predict what the terran is doing 25 seconds in advnaced you dont even need units cause you have maphacks.... Why 25 seconds? teching to mass banshees, mass mutaliks takes minutes, what are you talking about? Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 14:49 PXShaman wrote:On March 02 2011 14:43 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 14:38 PXShaman wrote:On March 02 2011 14:30 cheesemaster wrote:On March 02 2011 14:23 PXShaman wrote:
So with this nerf coming, how can protoss deal with mass mutas??
another very good point i honestly dont see how this can go live, even pros of different races dont agree with this change for the most part, I remember watching miniguns stream almost a month ago when david kim asked him what he thought about getting rid of kaydarian amulet, minigun said he thought it was fine, im sure there minority of terran pros that complain constantly about this and the fact that david kim (dayvie) even though he plays random everyone knows terran is his real main. I hope they dont ignore the community ive just recently started practicing alot with HT"s and i love how they work but i guarantee i wont use them nearly as much if this change is put in place. woah woah jack daniel, ur getting off topic Protoss lack any practical AoE after this patch. ( or multiple unit damage) Terran - Thor's (AA), Siege tanks, Hellions, Seeker missiles Zerg - Banelings, Infestors (after patch are more helpful against MMM) Shit you could even add Ultralisk and broodlords too since their attacks are not limited to just 1 unit. Protoss are a bit lacking, they only have 2 units, HT, and Colossus, and Storm won't be available that long. Especially if your a feedback spammer like me. Like fuck for real fuck fuck mofo fuck Yeah or you could just scout his mass mutalisks and warp in your templars early enough so that storm is already ready... problem solved. It takes time to do all of that. You can not scout a zerg without a robo bay, and by the time you get HT's up you will already be destroyed. Now with this amulet nerf you will probably see way more archon play, but for some reason archons are retarded in bases. I forgot Archons in my previous post, they are boss against zerg So what you are saying is that it's impossible for protoss to scout a mass mutalisk build? Really? by the time he gets his spire you can have 5 robotics and 20 observers on the field.
I was talking about the fact that I would need to warp in the templar 25 seconds before it gets storm, and have the templar in the right position, cause the move speed of the templar is one of the slowest(possibly the slowest) units in the game, and say you run your muta to the other side of my base it will take forever to get over there. saying that protoss should have vision of an enemies base constantly is unrealistic. Pro players are surprised by banshee's mutas etc etc all the time
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On March 02 2011 14:38 PXShaman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 14:30 cheesemaster wrote:On March 02 2011 14:23 PXShaman wrote:
So with this nerf coming, how can protoss deal with mass mutas??
another very good point i honestly dont see how this can go live, even pros of different races dont agree with this change for the most part, I remember watching miniguns stream almost a month ago when david kim asked him what he thought about getting rid of kaydarian amulet, minigun said he thought it was fine, im sure there minority of terran pros that complain constantly about this and the fact that david kim (dayvie) even though he plays random everyone knows terran is his real main. I hope they dont ignore the community ive just recently started practicing alot with HT"s and i love how they work but i guarantee i wont use them nearly as much if this change is put in place. woah woah jack daniel, ur getting off topic Protoss lack any practical AoE after this patch. ( or multiple unit damage) Terran - Thor's (AA), Siege tanks, Hellions, Seeker missiles Zerg - Banelings, Infestors (after patch are more helpful against MMM) Shit you could even add Ultralisk and broodlords too since their attacks are not limited to just 1 unit. Protoss are a bit lacking, they only have 2 units, HT, and Colossus, and Storm won't be available that long. Especially if your a feedback spammer like me. Like fuck for real fuck fuck mofo fuck
totally agree and yea i did get a bit off topic, but this whole thread is the thread is talking about the math behind the warp in mechanic in conjunction with HT's. Yea and collosus really arent great at all as a harassment unit AOE wise leaving protoss with zero effective aoe harass.
Oh you did forget archons though. lol
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On March 02 2011 14:57 nexkis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 14:53 jgelling wrote:Very good breakdown. I agree and I think that this will make protosses have to plan ahead more. I think Terran should have to plan ahead to use marauders, so I propose a 44 second nerf before they can start shooting. No seriously, it's not about planning. It's about defending from the stronger drop potential of Terrans, and the potential devastation of a few well-placed EMPs. And no Protoss can afford to leave HTs sitting all over the field, undefended, slowly charging. Not when they're so very immobile compared to all the other spellcasters in the game. 1 HT per base with 3 cannons can kill any drop and the cannons can also protect your HT at the same time and if he drops you with more than 2 medivacs you might just have to scout better.
1 50/150 HT + 3 cannon @150 minerals = 500/150 resources, to stop a drop that costs 500/100(1 medivac +8 rines) sounds good, but factor in that toss is in the defensive position and should have an advatage, add in the build time for cannons and, if as you say, high templars get nerfed, those three cannons and high temp can easily get killed( BAM STIM insta pylon death, no more cannons), cause they wont be built yet, and high templar will be limited to feedbacking the medivac, maybe killing half its health....So your saying I need templar tech, and 3 cannons at EACH of my bases to defend a simple 1 medivac drop?
now factor in that most terrans use 2 medivacs on drops, dropping becomes so cost efficient that terran can't lose if he uses drops.
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On March 02 2011 06:28 DragonDefonce wrote:
I'll just explain why the amulet change is bullshit in PvT in a mid late game scenario. I'll let PvZ go because I think that match up is too early to call either way. Feel free to refute any point, but don't be like "oh well you shouldn't let it get to that point". I am assuming mid late game in a more or less equal standing, by similar yet competent players. Also, sorry if someone posted same points earlier, but I'm not gonna read 10 pages of discussion.
Facts:
1. Protoss basic units(zealot, stalker, sentry) get raped by M&M
2. Colossus and HT are powerful enough to make this an even fight, even with Terran's respective special units.
3. In the absence of special units, by fact 1, Protoss will lose to Terran once the game gets in mid/late stage in comparable economic/tech standing, and assuming both players are competent and have similar skill level.
4. Approximately 7 Vikings kill a colossus in 2 volleys, in reasonable upgrade differential.
5. 7 Vikings = 1050/525, 1 Colossus 300/200.
6.Because of 4 and 5, Colossus become less effective as the game drags on and thus Protoss relies on HT more. This is the current trend in most high level games.
7. Storm is a DoT and does less damage even when full damage is taken than the amount of shield that EMP takes away for most units.
8. Feedback is a targeting skill while EMP is an aoe, and thus, much harder to use. This is compounded by the fact that ghosts are extremely small and can cloak, thus not only harder to click on, but also harder to spot in the middle of large bionic army, and leaves room for cloaked emp.
9. Therefore, it can be argued that Terran has a very easy and effective methods of eliminating Protoss special units(colossus, ht, sentry too i guess), while protoss does not have easy way of killing the ghost, although they have reasonably effective way to disable the medivac and the raven.
10. Because of 1, in order for Protoss to be able to overcome 9 is to have quickly renewable source of either colossus or high templar that can cast storm, probably in the middle of the fight as either can be very quickly taken out or disabled early in the battle or before the battle even starts.
11. Colossus are not very easily replaceable.
12. Removing amulet makes resupplying high templar with enough mana to cast storm difficult.
13. If 1,9, and 12 are true, then all terran has to do is come out even in a fight, and attack again as soon as the reinforcement arrive.
14. Amulet upgrade would supply storm to be used so that 13 does not happen.
Thus, removing the Amulet breaks balance.
Thank you for fixing the discussion on a logical way 7 pages ago, and everything said after was under just because nobody still countered you.
Guys, that's the difference between talking about yours (subjectives) visions of the game versus a (objective) analysis of facts.
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On March 02 2011 16:15 TheGiftedApe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 14:57 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 14:53 jgelling wrote:Very good breakdown. I agree and I think that this will make protosses have to plan ahead more. I think Terran should have to plan ahead to use marauders, so I propose a 44 second nerf before they can start shooting. No seriously, it's not about planning. It's about defending from the stronger drop potential of Terrans, and the potential devastation of a few well-placed EMPs. And no Protoss can afford to leave HTs sitting all over the field, undefended, slowly charging. Not when they're so very immobile compared to all the other spellcasters in the game. 1 HT per base with 3 cannons can kill any drop and the cannons can also protect your HT at the same time and if he drops you with more than 2 medivacs you might just have to scout better. 1 50/150 HT + 3 cannon @150 minerals = 500/150 resources, to stop a drop that costs 500/100(1 medivac +8 rines) sounds good, but factor in that toss is in the defensive position and should have an advatage, add in the build time for cannons and, if as you say, high templars get nerfed, those three cannons and high temp can easily get killed( BAM STIM insta pylon death, no more cannons), cause they wont be built yet, and high templar will be limited to feedbacking the medivac, maybe killing half its health....So your saying I need templar tech, and 3 cannons at EACH of my bases to defend a simple 1 medivac drop?
I never said that, you are not the brightest spark aren't you?
If it's only one medivac with 8 marines and you don't have templar tech yet then you shouldn't have a problem at all anyway, since that means you are probably still on 2 bases... so just warp in 2-3 zealots to keep the marines busy and pull back a few stalkers to clean them up..... problem solved
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On March 02 2011 16:17 Parj wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 06:28 DragonDefonce wrote:
I'll just explain why the amulet change is bullshit in PvT in a mid late game scenario. I'll let PvZ go because I think that match up is too early to call either way. Feel free to refute any point, but don't be like "oh well you shouldn't let it get to that point". I am assuming mid late game in a more or less equal standing, by similar yet competent players. Also, sorry if someone posted same points earlier, but I'm not gonna read 10 pages of discussion.
Facts:
1. Protoss basic units(zealot, stalker, sentry) get raped by M&M
2. Colossus and HT are powerful enough to make this an even fight, even with Terran's respective special units.
3. In the absence of special units, by fact 1, Protoss will lose to Terran once the game gets in mid/late stage in comparable economic/tech standing, and assuming both players are competent and have similar skill level.
4. Approximately 7 Vikings kill a colossus in 2 volleys, in reasonable upgrade differential.
5. 7 Vikings = 1050/525, 1 Colossus 300/200.
6.Because of 4 and 5, Colossus become less effective as the game drags on and thus Protoss relies on HT more. This is the current trend in most high level games.
7. Storm is a DoT and does less damage even when full damage is taken than the amount of shield that EMP takes away for most units.
8. Feedback is a targeting skill while EMP is an aoe, and thus, much harder to use. This is compounded by the fact that ghosts are extremely small and can cloak, thus not only harder to click on, but also harder to spot in the middle of large bionic army, and leaves room for cloaked emp.
9. Therefore, it can be argued that Terran has a very easy and effective methods of eliminating Protoss special units(colossus, ht, sentry too i guess), while protoss does not have easy way of killing the ghost, although they have reasonably effective way to disable the medivac and the raven.
10. Because of 1, in order for Protoss to be able to overcome 9 is to have quickly renewable source of either colossus or high templar that can cast storm, probably in the middle of the fight as either can be very quickly taken out or disabled early in the battle or before the battle even starts.
11. Colossus are not very easily replaceable.
12. Removing amulet makes resupplying high templar with enough mana to cast storm difficult.
13. If 1,9, and 12 are true, then all terran has to do is come out even in a fight, and attack again as soon as the reinforcement arrive.
14. Amulet upgrade would supply storm to be used so that 13 does not happen.
Thus, removing the Amulet breaks balance. Thank you for fixing the discussion on a logical way 7 pages ago, and everything said after was under just because nobody still countered you. Guys, that's the difference between talking about yours (subjectives) visions of the game versus a (objective) analysis of facts.
It's called proof by verbosity and it's a logical fallacy, pretty much everything he said is bollox but nobody can't be bothered to adress all 14 points since it would consume too much time.
The first point "protoss gate way units get raped by MMM" is a complete joke to beginn with.
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EPT
