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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
It is insane to think that scouting will tell you when drops are coming every time. Even in pro matches only zergs with amazing OL spread catch maybe 30% of drops before they start unloading. Dealing with drops is ALL about reaction. The question is, what is a reasonable expectation for this. Protoss has the slowest army and the weakest basic units. Without templar warp we will have to use our main army since 1-2 dropships of MMM will easily kill cannons and 1 cycle of warp ins (if toss is lucky enough to have them off cooldown). As I have stated earlier in this thread the Collo ball moves at the speed of hydras off creep, so unless the ball is in the base it could literally take tos 2-3 TIMES as long to respond as zerg and I cant send a small platoon of units like terran due to the huge gap in efficiency.
I dont think drops are op, but there should be SOME tech I could have that isnt 10-20 observers that shuts it down.
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On March 02 2011 04:16 Darneck wrote:Show nested quote +HT will still have huge advantage of being teleported to where is needed, and also being able to cast secondary spell much earlier, but it is going to be much fairer. That's how it is now, that's exactly how it's not gonna be when the amulet is removed. No one is gonna know where they will be needing a HT in 50 seconds. You will never warp in your HT where you need it, you will warp it in at your base safely for it to get its energy and then move it.
I dont see the intelligence in this kind of thinking, hello? I mean, it would be awesome if Zerg could transform banelings in just a few seconds, that way you dont need to be strategicly prepared for when terran comes, wouldn´t it be awesome if terran could make a ghost in 5 seconds? Just when needed, with the right energy just to stop the push, game is to hard, why not make it a little more noob friendly? I mean really, think about it.
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On March 02 2011 16:58 Parj wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:22 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 16:17 Parj wrote:On March 02 2011 06:28 DragonDefonce wrote:
I'll just explain why the amulet change is bullshit in PvT in a mid late game scenario. I'll let PvZ go because I think that match up is too early to call either way. Feel free to refute any point, but don't be like "oh well you shouldn't let it get to that point". I am assuming mid late game in a more or less equal standing, by similar yet competent players. Also, sorry if someone posted same points earlier, but I'm not gonna read 10 pages of discussion.
Facts:
1. Protoss basic units(zealot, stalker, sentry) get raped by M&M
2. Colossus and HT are powerful enough to make this an even fight, even with Terran's respective special units.
3. In the absence of special units, by fact 1, Protoss will lose to Terran once the game gets in mid/late stage in comparable economic/tech standing, and assuming both players are competent and have similar skill level.
4. Approximately 7 Vikings kill a colossus in 2 volleys, in reasonable upgrade differential.
5. 7 Vikings = 1050/525, 1 Colossus 300/200.
6.Because of 4 and 5, Colossus become less effective as the game drags on and thus Protoss relies on HT more. This is the current trend in most high level games.
7. Storm is a DoT and does less damage even when full damage is taken than the amount of shield that EMP takes away for most units.
8. Feedback is a targeting skill while EMP is an aoe, and thus, much harder to use. This is compounded by the fact that ghosts are extremely small and can cloak, thus not only harder to click on, but also harder to spot in the middle of large bionic army, and leaves room for cloaked emp.
9. Therefore, it can be argued that Terran has a very easy and effective methods of eliminating Protoss special units(colossus, ht, sentry too i guess), while protoss does not have easy way of killing the ghost, although they have reasonably effective way to disable the medivac and the raven.
10. Because of 1, in order for Protoss to be able to overcome 9 is to have quickly renewable source of either colossus or high templar that can cast storm, probably in the middle of the fight as either can be very quickly taken out or disabled early in the battle or before the battle even starts.
11. Colossus are not very easily replaceable.
12. Removing amulet makes resupplying high templar with enough mana to cast storm difficult.
13. If 1,9, and 12 are true, then all terran has to do is come out even in a fight, and attack again as soon as the reinforcement arrive.
14. Amulet upgrade would supply storm to be used so that 13 does not happen.
Thus, removing the Amulet breaks balance. Thank you for fixing the discussion on a logical way 7 pages ago, and everything said after was under just because nobody still countered you. Guys, that's the difference between talking about yours (subjectives) visions of the game versus a (objective) analysis of facts. It's called proof by verbosity and it's a logical fallacy, pretty much everything he said is bollox but nobody can't be bothered to adress all 14 points since it would consume too much time. The first point "protoss gate way units get raped by MMM" is a complete joke to beginn with. Wow, so nobody can't adress all 14 points because it would consume too much time?Here is the fallacy. BTW you don't need to argue 14 points, just showing us one false on his reasonnement. That you tried to do by deny point 1, so i'll giving you the answer that you're are waiting for, point 1 is right because i have the time to argue. So now we can really see that's a logical discussion is independant of time. The only joke in this thread is....you.
Yeah or you could just surrender because you ain't gonna win anyway?
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On March 02 2011 17:01 PiLoKo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:16 Darneck wrote:HT will still have huge advantage of being teleported to where is needed, and also being able to cast secondary spell much earlier, but it is going to be much fairer. That's how it is now, that's exactly how it's not gonna be when the amulet is removed. No one is gonna know where they will be needing a HT in 50 seconds. You will never warp in your HT where you need it, you will warp it in at your base safely for it to get its energy and then move it. I dont see the intelligence in this kind of thinking, hello? I mean, it would be awesome if Zerg could transform banelings in just a few seconds, that way you dont need to be strategicly prepared for when terran comes, wouldn´t it be awesome if terran could make a ghost in 5 seconds? Just when needed, with the right energy just to stop the push, game is to hard, why not make it a little more noob friendly? I mean really, think about it.
all the toss players are just trying to say, dont nerf the HighTemplar, cause it forces toss into a Colossus based army, which is much more boring, and much more destructive towards terran and zerg.(as a toss i'd rather see blizz nerf colossai) And compared to how long it takes to get a HT out with storm, banelings can transform instantly. Anyone who uses the argument that OH well protoss can just warp in INSTANTLY, is not factoring in the fact that a good toss doesn't have any warp gates ready to produce cause they are using them constantly. Sounds like your problem is with warp gate tech, not high templars. I hear the argument of, oh it only takes 5 seconds for protoss to get a unit, when in reality toss units have longer build times than more zerg/terran units.
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On March 02 2011 17:01 PiLoKo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:16 Darneck wrote:HT will still have huge advantage of being teleported to where is needed, and also being able to cast secondary spell much earlier, but it is going to be much fairer. That's how it is now, that's exactly how it's not gonna be when the amulet is removed. No one is gonna know where they will be needing a HT in 50 seconds. You will never warp in your HT where you need it, you will warp it in at your base safely for it to get its energy and then move it. I dont see the intelligence in this kind of thinking, hello? I mean, it would be awesome if Zerg could transform banelings in just a few seconds, that way you dont need to be strategicly prepared for when terran comes, wouldn´t it be awesome if terran could make a ghost in 5 seconds? Just when needed, with the right energy just to stop the push, game is to hard, why not make it a little more noob friendly? I mean really, think about it.
Exactly, but Protoss doesn't need to prepare for drops, having to prepare for something is imbalanced.
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On March 02 2011 16:54 nexkis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:51 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On March 02 2011 14:57 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 14:53 jgelling wrote:Very good breakdown. I agree and I think that this will make protosses have to plan ahead more. I think Terran should have to plan ahead to use marauders, so I propose a 44 second nerf before they can start shooting. No seriously, it's not about planning. It's about defending from the stronger drop potential of Terrans, and the potential devastation of a few well-placed EMPs. And no Protoss can afford to leave HTs sitting all over the field, undefended, slowly charging. Not when they're so very immobile compared to all the other spellcasters in the game. 1 HT per base with 3 cannons can kill any drop and the cannons can also protect your HT at the same time and if he drops you with more than 2 medivacs you might just have to scout better. So for every base, protss should have at least 1 tier 3 unit, plus 3 static defenses buildings just in case of a tier 1-2 terran drop... Yup that is perfectly balanced.....Instead of making a planetary fortress and being able to harras constantly while keeping our main army at home to defend right? sounds exactly fair..... why tech and expand when you can rely on tier 1-1.5 units to A move and win right? that's how the game should be played.. damn how could everyone have missed this?? So simple.... Or Toss could have half decent drop harras with a slightly nerfed(Maybe cant cast for the first 5 seconds ht) that can defend against drops... I would MUCH rather have a slight nerf to ht like they cant cast for the first 5 seconds they are warped in, coupled with a massive Collosi nerf... I'm sick of having to go collosi to win.... and all this patch is going to promote for protoss is to go collosi... we can tech to useless for 50 seconds ht(which if you haven't noticed is an already extremely long and unrewarding tech path...,or a extremely expensive stasis(Mother ship after much needed archon toilet nerf.)... or just go collosi and lol, which is retarded... In short blizzard has successfully nerfed toss into "I have to make collosi or I lose." which IMO is no fun for anyone.... Please blizzard nerf collosi hard and give me a high templar with an initial casting cooldown of 5 seconds.... Poor protoss they have to use some units to defend their base from drops... wait what?
Some units??? tell me the lat time a Terran kept a bc or two at every bc or two at home for defense??? Or when a zerg has kept some ultras at every base to stop drops??? I wouldn't mind at at all if I could keep 2-3 stalkers per base to stop a drop... but right now, it takes 10+ gateway units to stop a well scouted, prepared for bio drop to any given base protoss has...
I mean really think about what you are saying.... to stop a tier 2(Tier 2 AT MOST) drop all protoss should sacrifice(Value wise) about a bc per base if not more, to stop a simple drop? that is the epitome of stupidity
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On March 02 2011 17:02 nexkis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:58 Parj wrote:On March 02 2011 16:22 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 16:17 Parj wrote:On March 02 2011 06:28 DragonDefonce wrote:
I'll just explain why the amulet change is bullshit in PvT in a mid late game scenario. I'll let PvZ go because I think that match up is too early to call either way. Feel free to refute any point, but don't be like "oh well you shouldn't let it get to that point". I am assuming mid late game in a more or less equal standing, by similar yet competent players. Also, sorry if someone posted same points earlier, but I'm not gonna read 10 pages of discussion.
Facts:
1. Protoss basic units(zealot, stalker, sentry) get raped by M&M
2. Colossus and HT are powerful enough to make this an even fight, even with Terran's respective special units.
3. In the absence of special units, by fact 1, Protoss will lose to Terran once the game gets in mid/late stage in comparable economic/tech standing, and assuming both players are competent and have similar skill level.
4. Approximately 7 Vikings kill a colossus in 2 volleys, in reasonable upgrade differential.
5. 7 Vikings = 1050/525, 1 Colossus 300/200.
6.Because of 4 and 5, Colossus become less effective as the game drags on and thus Protoss relies on HT more. This is the current trend in most high level games.
7. Storm is a DoT and does less damage even when full damage is taken than the amount of shield that EMP takes away for most units.
8. Feedback is a targeting skill while EMP is an aoe, and thus, much harder to use. This is compounded by the fact that ghosts are extremely small and can cloak, thus not only harder to click on, but also harder to spot in the middle of large bionic army, and leaves room for cloaked emp.
9. Therefore, it can be argued that Terran has a very easy and effective methods of eliminating Protoss special units(colossus, ht, sentry too i guess), while protoss does not have easy way of killing the ghost, although they have reasonably effective way to disable the medivac and the raven.
10. Because of 1, in order for Protoss to be able to overcome 9 is to have quickly renewable source of either colossus or high templar that can cast storm, probably in the middle of the fight as either can be very quickly taken out or disabled early in the battle or before the battle even starts.
11. Colossus are not very easily replaceable.
12. Removing amulet makes resupplying high templar with enough mana to cast storm difficult.
13. If 1,9, and 12 are true, then all terran has to do is come out even in a fight, and attack again as soon as the reinforcement arrive.
14. Amulet upgrade would supply storm to be used so that 13 does not happen.
Thus, removing the Amulet breaks balance. Thank you for fixing the discussion on a logical way 7 pages ago, and everything said after was under just because nobody still countered you. Guys, that's the difference between talking about yours (subjectives) visions of the game versus a (objective) analysis of facts. It's called proof by verbosity and it's a logical fallacy, pretty much everything he said is bollox but nobody can't be bothered to adress all 14 points since it would consume too much time. The first point "protoss gate way units get raped by MMM" is a complete joke to beginn with. Wow, so nobody can't adress all 14 points because it would consume too much time?Here is the fallacy. BTW you don't need to argue 14 points, just showing us one false on his reasonnement. That you tried to do by deny point 1, so i'll giving you the answer that you're are waiting for, point 1 is right because i have the time to argue. So now we can really see that's a logical discussion is independant of time. The only joke in this thread is....you. Yeah or you could just surrender because you ain't gonna win anyway?
When you'll really proove that's the reasonnement of this guy were wrong i'll admit that you're right and the logic will win.
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On March 02 2011 17:08 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:54 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 16:51 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On March 02 2011 14:57 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 14:53 jgelling wrote:Very good breakdown. I agree and I think that this will make protosses have to plan ahead more. I think Terran should have to plan ahead to use marauders, so I propose a 44 second nerf before they can start shooting. No seriously, it's not about planning. It's about defending from the stronger drop potential of Terrans, and the potential devastation of a few well-placed EMPs. And no Protoss can afford to leave HTs sitting all over the field, undefended, slowly charging. Not when they're so very immobile compared to all the other spellcasters in the game. 1 HT per base with 3 cannons can kill any drop and the cannons can also protect your HT at the same time and if he drops you with more than 2 medivacs you might just have to scout better. So for every base, protss should have at least 1 tier 3 unit, plus 3 static defenses buildings just in case of a tier 1-2 terran drop... Yup that is perfectly balanced.....Instead of making a planetary fortress and being able to harras constantly while keeping our main army at home to defend right? sounds exactly fair..... why tech and expand when you can rely on tier 1-1.5 units to A move and win right? that's how the game should be played.. damn how could everyone have missed this?? So simple.... Or Toss could have half decent drop harras with a slightly nerfed(Maybe cant cast for the first 5 seconds ht) that can defend against drops... I would MUCH rather have a slight nerf to ht like they cant cast for the first 5 seconds they are warped in, coupled with a massive Collosi nerf... I'm sick of having to go collosi to win.... and all this patch is going to promote for protoss is to go collosi... we can tech to useless for 50 seconds ht(which if you haven't noticed is an already extremely long and unrewarding tech path...,or a extremely expensive stasis(Mother ship after much needed archon toilet nerf.)... or just go collosi and lol, which is retarded... In short blizzard has successfully nerfed toss into "I have to make collosi or I lose." which IMO is no fun for anyone.... Please blizzard nerf collosi hard and give me a high templar with an initial casting cooldown of 5 seconds.... Poor protoss they have to use some units to defend their base from drops... wait what? Some units??? tell me the lat time a Terran kept a bc or two at every bc or two at home for defense??? Or when a zerg has kept some ultras at every base to stop drops??? I wouldn't mind at at all if I could keep 2-3 stalkers per base to stop a drop... but right now, it takes 10+ gateway units to stop a well scouted, prepared for bio drop to any given base protoss has... I mean really think about what you are saying.... to stop a tier 2(Tier 2 AT MOST) drop all protoss should sacrifice(Value wise) about a bc per base if not more, to stop a simple drop? that is the epitome of stupidity
So what you are saying is that, drops are overpowered?
But to be honest the fact that the protoss can just warp in a HT to kill the drop is a joke aswell, either way it's stupid.
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On March 02 2011 17:11 nexkis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 17:08 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On March 02 2011 16:54 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 16:51 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On March 02 2011 14:57 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 14:53 jgelling wrote:Very good breakdown. I agree and I think that this will make protosses have to plan ahead more. I think Terran should have to plan ahead to use marauders, so I propose a 44 second nerf before they can start shooting. No seriously, it's not about planning. It's about defending from the stronger drop potential of Terrans, and the potential devastation of a few well-placed EMPs. And no Protoss can afford to leave HTs sitting all over the field, undefended, slowly charging. Not when they're so very immobile compared to all the other spellcasters in the game. 1 HT per base with 3 cannons can kill any drop and the cannons can also protect your HT at the same time and if he drops you with more than 2 medivacs you might just have to scout better. So for every base, protss should have at least 1 tier 3 unit, plus 3 static defenses buildings just in case of a tier 1-2 terran drop... Yup that is perfectly balanced.....Instead of making a planetary fortress and being able to harras constantly while keeping our main army at home to defend right? sounds exactly fair..... why tech and expand when you can rely on tier 1-1.5 units to A move and win right? that's how the game should be played.. damn how could everyone have missed this?? So simple.... Or Toss could have half decent drop harras with a slightly nerfed(Maybe cant cast for the first 5 seconds ht) that can defend against drops... I would MUCH rather have a slight nerf to ht like they cant cast for the first 5 seconds they are warped in, coupled with a massive Collosi nerf... I'm sick of having to go collosi to win.... and all this patch is going to promote for protoss is to go collosi... we can tech to useless for 50 seconds ht(which if you haven't noticed is an already extremely long and unrewarding tech path...,or a extremely expensive stasis(Mother ship after much needed archon toilet nerf.)... or just go collosi and lol, which is retarded... In short blizzard has successfully nerfed toss into "I have to make collosi or I lose." which IMO is no fun for anyone.... Please blizzard nerf collosi hard and give me a high templar with an initial casting cooldown of 5 seconds.... Poor protoss they have to use some units to defend their base from drops... wait what? Some units??? tell me the lat time a Terran kept a bc or two at every bc or two at home for defense??? Or when a zerg has kept some ultras at every base to stop drops??? I wouldn't mind at at all if I could keep 2-3 stalkers per base to stop a drop... but right now, it takes 10+ gateway units to stop a well scouted, prepared for bio drop to any given base protoss has... I mean really think about what you are saying.... to stop a tier 2(Tier 2 AT MOST) drop all protoss should sacrifice(Value wise) about a bc per base if not more, to stop a simple drop? that is the epitome of stupidity So what you are saying is that, drops are overpowered?
Not at all... simply that removing the amulet, kills any chance Protoss has of dealing with drop ship harrass late game...
Like I said in an early post, if insta storm is that big of a problem nerf collosi and give all ht a 2-6 second warp in sickness so they cant cast right away,,,
This way Toss late game Isn't OP, we can tech to something other then collosi and defend against drops without insta storm rape.
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On March 02 2011 16:45 TheGiftedApe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:40 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 16:37 ToastieNL wrote:On March 02 2011 14:39 nexkis wrote:
Or you could just build a few cannons here and there and warp in stalkers and zealots to kill the drops. Implying that HT are the only way to deal with drops... really? What units do terran have to deal with drops, they can't warp in anything at all and are not very mobile either, even stimmed marines are alot slower than zerglings.
Think about what you are saying. In other words; Protoss needs to fully cannon up every base in case Terran gets a Starport? Because he MIGHT Drop in my main, or nat, or 3rd, so I'd better get 6 cannons a base because else I can't defend him? (You need about 6 to prevent blind spots, assuming you want 2 cannons supporting at all times) Terran doesn't need to defend against Protoss drops that fast; Stalkers dont deal as much DPS versus structures as say, Stimmed Marauders? Zealots can be beaten with liftoff. Protoss drops aren't scarry because Gateway units are weak as hell. You are not dropping a base to destroy buildings you are dropping to kill scvs, what game are you playing? "lol, have you heard of scan?, zerg is fine overlords, overseers are great at spotting drops, xel naga etc etc are you saying protoss has the advantage in map control now as well??? How am I whining, I'm saying the game is balanced fine as it is, you are the one whining for an amulet nerf...." I forgot only zerg and terran can use the xelnaga tower now and yeah scans are awesome against drops... and you are whining because terran drops are appearently OP (facepalm) and you can only hold off drops with HTs nope not at all, I'm saying high templars are a nice addition to the protoss arsenal for defending drops, rather than having to spend ridiculous resources on cannons that CANNOT BE USED with the main army in important battles. I can't pick up my cannons in a warp prism and drop them in the terran base instantly can I? not to mention terran can just target the pylon or the unit i am warping in and continue to harass.
It amazes me that no-one in these quotes realize that Terrans can make circles which take up 1/4 of the map which reveal basically everything that moves.
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On March 02 2011 16:58 ToastieNL wrote:
As I said before;
Couldn't a HT from a Gateway be spawned with 75 energy and a HT from a Warpgate with 50? Reduce buildtime to 20 Secs, so you can revert from Warpgate and Chronoboost a Templar out relativelly fast?
Well, guess you lost your gateway already... -,-.
Just face it; Protoss can't deal with Drops from Terran in a reasonably cost effective manner, not in any way without HTs. Leaving 50/150/2 at home with 900/0/0 in cannons IN CASE OF a drop is just not reasonable.
And Nexkis. Are you just plain dumb or are you just incapable of actually reinforcing your opinions with facts!?
It just doesn't make sense to have half your gateways work one way and the other half in warp gate mode. So my already ridiculously slow high templars would be left way back in my base while the rest of my army is attacking. That wouldn't help protoss at all, i'd rather have a complete nerf, rather than sacrifice some of my unit producing structures, its an interesting idea though.(the big problem here is that, protoss needs warp tech to keep up with production with the other races, non-warpgate tech gateways take longer to produce units than warp tech gateways, if protoss only used non-warp tech gateways he/she would fall behind in macro so fast it would be hilarious it would ruin the entire balance of sc2)
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On March 02 2011 17:16 aScle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:45 TheGiftedApe wrote:On March 02 2011 16:40 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 16:37 ToastieNL wrote:On March 02 2011 14:39 nexkis wrote:
Or you could just build a few cannons here and there and warp in stalkers and zealots to kill the drops. Implying that HT are the only way to deal with drops... really? What units do terran have to deal with drops, they can't warp in anything at all and are not very mobile either, even stimmed marines are alot slower than zerglings.
Think about what you are saying. In other words; Protoss needs to fully cannon up every base in case Terran gets a Starport? Because he MIGHT Drop in my main, or nat, or 3rd, so I'd better get 6 cannons a base because else I can't defend him? (You need about 6 to prevent blind spots, assuming you want 2 cannons supporting at all times) Terran doesn't need to defend against Protoss drops that fast; Stalkers dont deal as much DPS versus structures as say, Stimmed Marauders? Zealots can be beaten with liftoff. Protoss drops aren't scarry because Gateway units are weak as hell. You are not dropping a base to destroy buildings you are dropping to kill scvs, what game are you playing? "lol, have you heard of scan?, zerg is fine overlords, overseers are great at spotting drops, xel naga etc etc are you saying protoss has the advantage in map control now as well??? How am I whining, I'm saying the game is balanced fine as it is, you are the one whining for an amulet nerf...." I forgot only zerg and terran can use the xelnaga tower now and yeah scans are awesome against drops... and you are whining because terran drops are appearently OP (facepalm) and you can only hold off drops with HTs nope not at all, I'm saying high templars are a nice addition to the protoss arsenal for defending drops, rather than having to spend ridiculous resources on cannons that CANNOT BE USED with the main army in important battles. I can't pick up my cannons in a warp prism and drop them in the terran base instantly can I? not to mention terran can just target the pylon or the unit i am warping in and continue to harass. It amazes me that no-one in these quotes realize that Terrans can make circles which take up 1/4 of the map which reveal basically everything that moves.
huh?
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This post must be a troll. If build time is the way to ballance casters, than why just not increase warp-in time of the HT to 15sec as opposed to 5sec for the rest of warpgate units? Why remove the +25 upgrade completly and not make it like in BW for example?
The difference of these casters and how they work in a game is so different. How about if the ghosts EMP would not be AOE but single unit like feedback is? And even so it isn't comparable because finding the HT in a ball of units is easier than finding the Ghosts in the ball of MM, it leaves a freakking blue trail behind him. Have you tried feedbacking the Ghosts in their MM ball while they move? For starters, try finding the tiny ghosts in that ball. Feedback on ghosts is mostly when you take the terran by surprise and if the terran keeps his ghosts upfront. It's a lot, a lot of apm and awareness.
Plus, they fill in different roles as a force multiplier unit.
And if we talk so much about Protoss advantage after HT/storm tech, why not talk also about terrans early (T1 freakking) advantage. I don't know about you but I can easly beat the Insane AI as terran in TvP playing standard (even whitout ghosts) and I can't survive the terrans push insane AI as protoss playing standard, in PvT.
Isn't it ironic how the community is balancing the game by making different maps (because that's how the community can interfere with balance) by trying to address the issues that are bad in this game? Take for instance the Shakuras map in MLG, iirc, as you can only spawn cross position? And Blizzard makes these almost random changes. Here's a random change Blizzard, make feedback autocast.
Of course players will addapt but changes should not be this drastic. BW is a different game but why not take the good bits form it? Like the energy upgrade in this case? So it wouldn't be almost insta storms.
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On March 02 2011 17:19 TheGiftedApe wrote:
huh?
you know that thing terran is using against Mass mutalisk to check if there is harass incoming...
sensor tower that is...
Zerg has Creep, which gives a huge time advantage in preparing
Terran has Sensor Towers
Protoss has Observers.
while Zerg has no costs to cover cover half of the map
Terran has little cost to cover half of the map (1-2 Sensor towers)
How many observers does P need to cover half of the map? (Remember also that observers cost supply while Creep&Sensor Towers do not!)
you can use observers to check for ground armies, but spotting multiple drops?
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I think templars definately need a delay before they can cast storms, but 40 seconds might be too long. Something like 20secs sounds about right, so that they cannot be spammed during a fight but if you make some right before engaging you might get some storms off.
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The fact is, this change isn't going to go into play. There's no way it can. If it does, you'll have a t2 unit (vikings) that effectively counter anything that Protoss might go. (Colossus or Stargate tech) The fact is, templars won't be viable anymore as the risk that ghosts pose will be too great to warrant teching in that direction.
Anybody who tries to argue that this change is warranted is clearly misinformed. Terrans t1 is far superior to Protoss T1 once T hits critical mass. Late game, warp-in storm was a necessity to survival. You may complain that it was ridiculous that drops could be countered so easily, yet it's a little ridiculous that PFs can counter any small skirmish attack as well.
While we're complaining about HT harass, why don't we touch on the totally gas-free hellion harass that is even more effective? i mean c'mon people. The races aren't meant to be played the same. Protoss relies on their abiltiies. What will happen when our HT is much worse than the ghost, despite being later tech and requiring extensive research and being more vulnerable both healthwise and mobility wise?
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On March 02 2011 04:14 dala wrote:
This is a necessary patch. Storming of mineral lines is way too powerful.
And fungal doesn't serve the same purpose?
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On March 02 2011 17:08 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 16:54 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 16:51 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On March 02 2011 14:57 nexkis wrote:On March 02 2011 14:53 jgelling wrote:Very good breakdown. I agree and I think that this will make protosses have to plan ahead more. I think Terran should have to plan ahead to use marauders, so I propose a 44 second nerf before they can start shooting. No seriously, it's not about planning. It's about defending from the stronger drop potential of Terrans, and the potential devastation of a few well-placed EMPs. And no Protoss can afford to leave HTs sitting all over the field, undefended, slowly charging. Not when they're so very immobile compared to all the other spellcasters in the game. 1 HT per base with 3 cannons can kill any drop and the cannons can also protect your HT at the same time and if he drops you with more than 2 medivacs you might just have to scout better. So for every base, protss should have at least 1 tier 3 unit, plus 3 static defenses buildings just in case of a tier 1-2 terran drop... Yup that is perfectly balanced.....Instead of making a planetary fortress and being able to harras constantly while keeping our main army at home to defend right? sounds exactly fair..... why tech and expand when you can rely on tier 1-1.5 units to A move and win right? that's how the game should be played.. damn how could everyone have missed this?? So simple.... Or Toss could have half decent drop harras with a slightly nerfed(Maybe cant cast for the first 5 seconds ht) that can defend against drops... I would MUCH rather have a slight nerf to ht like they cant cast for the first 5 seconds they are warped in, coupled with a massive Collosi nerf... I'm sick of having to go collosi to win.... and all this patch is going to promote for protoss is to go collosi... we can tech to useless for 50 seconds ht(which if you haven't noticed is an already extremely long and unrewarding tech path...,or a extremely expensive stasis(Mother ship after much needed archon toilet nerf.)... or just go collosi and lol, which is retarded... In short blizzard has successfully nerfed toss into "I have to make collosi or I lose." which IMO is no fun for anyone.... Please blizzard nerf collosi hard and give me a high templar with an initial casting cooldown of 5 seconds.... Poor protoss they have to use some units to defend their base from drops... wait what? Some units??? tell me the lat time a Terran kept a bc or two at every bc or two at home for defense??? Or when a zerg has kept some ultras at every base to stop drops??? I wouldn't mind at at all if I could keep 2-3 stalkers per base to stop a drop... but right now, it takes 10+ gateway units to stop a well scouted, prepared for bio drop to any given base protoss has... I mean really think about what you are saying.... to stop a tier 2(Tier 2 AT MOST) drop all protoss should sacrifice(Value wise) about a bc per base if not more, to stop a simple drop? that is the epitome of stupidity
you mean like a terran that keeps a thor and 4++ turrets in his base vs mutas? or a terran with tons of turrets, a sensor tower and some units to defend against t/p drops and elevation attacks?
and you can deal with 1-2 medivac and esp 1-4 overlord drops just fine just with warpins later. but guess what, you need more to stop doomdrops which is perfectly fine.
its nice how the grass is always greener and how Ps that never build cannons or have ANYTHING to defend in their base think the warpgate mechanic should make them 100% safe vs drops. its pathetic.
also what the hell are you talking about "2 BC AT BASE WTF!" . you keep ONE templar in each base. soon he will have 2 storms which together with warpins should easily clear any normal sized drop so you still can defend way easier then any other race. one templar =/= cost of 2 bcs.
but i just write this cause your post is so incredibly senseless,biased and crap that it really raged me up.
guess i should stay away from threads like this. it started out wonderful but now its just another bnet forum like QQ thread where crappy players that never played another race throw random stuff and flames around. which is quite hilarious given that i still havent seen a single pro that said taking away instant storm is a bad thing.
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On March 02 2011 19:23 Tossup wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:14 dala wrote:
This is a necessary patch. Storming of mineral lines is way too powerful. And fungal doesn't serve the same purpose?
fungal is actually better, it prevents the workers from mining at all during the attack. Workers under storm still mine resources and often move in and out of the storms meaning they can often live through at-least 1-2 storms. But no one uses infestors so less QQing, the guy your quoting must be a troll cause, if someone lets you build a pylon in their mineral line and start warping in amulet upgraded high templars they are obviously retarded, and have probably already lost the game, therefore causing a rip in the space time continuum meaning the game is already over, not to mention getting rid of amulet DOESN'T STOP protoss from storming mineral lines...
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On March 02 2011 13:31 Boardin wrote:
i'm sorry but this is one of the most blatantly biased posts i've read in awhile. I appreciate the effort trying to back up your opinion with numbers, but this is apples to oranges
If you compare ghosts to templars and infestors... Why not compare stalkers to marauders?
And as the guy said a few posts up... Sensor tower / Creep spread will cover ½ the map with ease... Observers will never be able to spot tech, army positioning, expansions and drops... No way... Mutas/drops will just be too devastating for toss...
As mentioned in an earlier post.. This patch will ONLY bring more 4gates
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EPT
