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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
The funny thing about all of the arguments about the amulet is that almost none of them focus on the HT itself. Every zerg/terran is looking at the HT without KA and thinking "damn thats still super strong. I wish I could have that in my army." And the thing thats making me LOL is that toss do not disagree. Nobody in their right mind thinks that the unit in a vacuum is bad, the problem is that it loses 90% of its positive interactions with other toss units.
As the game stands, the ENTIRE protoss tech tree is balanced around HT and Collo. Why do we have BY FAR the least efficient tier 1/2 units in the game? Because if zealots were marines and stalkers were marauders then collo and HT would end the game the second they came out.
Basically what im saying is that this patch will destroy toss for a while so it is natural for there to be a violent reaction. These are growing pains and it is my prediction that 1.4 will come with an increase to warpgate research time, a heavy-ish nerf to collo and a HUGE buff to gateway units.
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On March 02 2011 22:18 Velocirapture wrote:
The funny thing about all of the arguments about the amulet is that almost none of them focus on the HT itself. Every zerg/terran is looking at the HT without KA and thinking "damn thats still super strong. I wish I could have that in my army." And the thing thats making me LOL is that toss do not disagree. Nobody in their right mind thinks that the unit in a vacuum is bad, the problem is that it loses 90% of its positive interactions with other toss units.
As the game stands, the ENTIRE protoss tech tree is balanced around HT and Collo. Why do we have BY FAR the least efficient tier 1/2 units in the game? Because if zealots were marines and stalkers were marauders then collo and HT would end the game the second they came out.
Basically what im saying is that this patch will destroy toss for a while so it is natural for there to be a violent reaction. These are growing pains and it is my prediction that 1.4 will come with an increase to warpgate research time, a heavy-ish nerf to collo and a HUGE buff to gateway units.
I like the way you think, and I've been saying the same thing forever, but I don't think that will happen. I think they will somehow buff gateway units or AA as a follow up to 1.3 if this goes live, but it won't be huge IMO. It is an inherent part of the game, and it will be like this for better or for worse.
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I think my biggest problem with the amulet removal is the fact that you're essentially sitting on insanely expensive idle food. It seems like the same idea as idle money, when you queue units up. That supply could be spent on surefire units that you know will be able to do damage now rather than units you know you have to build, and wait to be able to do any kind of potential damage. The fact that you have to hurry up and wait (after an enormous investment in archives, and storm) for i believe 44.5 game seconds is perhaps too much time to be sitting on units that are only good for the extremely situational feedback. I do think this is a potentially damaging dynamic in the late PvT metagame, and am sure there has to be some kind of middle ground.
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On March 02 2011 21:57 Eraz0rZ wrote:
also if i want more then 10 ht's (late late game) i need to have 1500 gas saved up with 2 cycles of warping in. (wich means that the first ht might take 5 seconds to warpin BUT the second takes its full 50!!! (note that its not 45)
1st ht takes 5 seconds
2nd takes 50
in 55 seconds you have 2 HTs
in 55 seconds a T will have 1 ghost ready and another waiting in queue.
aka production capabilities
*not to mention you can chronoboost, futher unbalancing the energy distribution.
Amulet removal was bound to happen. I'm surprised it came so late.
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On March 02 2011 21:40 Sek-Kuar wrote:
There are a lot of people accusting me of inaccuracy, but thats simple not fair.
I have explained before, this math is true for every single HT, not just first.
To understand, you first need to realize that there is difference between production rate and production time.
While reactored Factory can produce 4 Helions per minute, build time is not 15 seconds - but still 30 sec.
While 1 Hatchery can produce 10 Ultras per minute, Ultralisk doesnt have build time of 6 seconds - but 70 sec.
And while 1 Gateway can produce at rate of 1 HT per 45 seconds, it takes 5 seconds to build HT.
When Rax with TL and Warpgate are finished at same time, it looks like this:
Warpgate timeline:
0:05 HT created (1)
0:45 cooldown expires
0:50 HT created (2)
1:30 cooldown expires
1:35 HT created (3)
2:15 cooldown expires
Barrack with Tech Lab timeline:
0:45 Ghost created (1)
1:30 Ghost created (2)
2:15 Ghost created (3)
So as you can see, it takes 5 seconds to get HT everytime after previous unit production cycle is finished, while Ghost has real build time of 45 seconds.
Due to warp-in, every HT has 40 more seconds to gain energy, and thus there is no reason to have KA when warp-in basically gives free +25 energy and teleport.
Also people complaining about BW, it takes 22 seconds less to get energy in SC2 w/o upgrade than it took in BW with upgrade (assuming energy regeneration is same, I actually dont know that for sure).
I've been saying this pretty much everywhere. Thanks for pointing this out again.
I wish more people read this post, because it's not opinion, but pure math and proves that removing amulet still leaves templar slightly better than they were in bw just because of how powerful warp in is.
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Storm is still the same spell. Theres now a time investment required to get a HT to cast the spell. adding time management, while not easy, doesn't technically affect balance. It removes gimicky storm warp-ins in the mineral line or wherever For Sure. But most of all the use and recycle mentality of the HT will diminish. No longer will a HT with less than 50 energy be considered useless and morphed into an archon, because HTs will now require a time investment. This is mainly a patch to add skill through time management, and reduce archon numbers. Removing archon toilet and making HT more valuable in the time department means less archons and I think that's how blizzard wants it.
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Well they can put Warpgate into Twilight (and) or increase it's research time,
buff Gateway Units and reduce the buildtime to Warpgate Numbers and after that Nerf Colossus and HT
Lets say Blizzard does:
remove STIM completely.
and then maybe will fix Terran Lategame in some later patches.
of course Terrans would rage rightfully, and same is happening here with Protoss.
Protoss gets this lategame "fixed", while his early is still broken, the sole reason every Protoss "rushes" for either Colossus or HT is that despite any combination of T2 Protoss could throw at either Zerg or Terran, it would get Raped by the sheer Numbers and Efficiency of their (T1-T2 Units)
And this is happening now:
if Amulet is removed nobody will dare to tech HT ever on 2 bases.
Everyone will go Colossus, this will result i can assure you in way more 2 Base Colossus Timing before Viking count gets to high cause the transition into HT is alot riskier now.
And then we will get QQ Colossus (as if there wasn't already enough of it...)
The Design of P is just bad
inefficient (easy counterable) Early units (Stalker)
inefficient (easy counterable) midgame units (Voidray, Immortal)
good lategame units (counter needs more effort). (HT , Colossus)
somehow P has to mix all of those units into a mix and try to secure his way to lategame.
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What I dislike the most about the OP - which is well written in itself - is that you just can't compare units like that.
Terran gets a thor for 300/200, a unit that is arguably much weaker than a colossus which also comes at 300/200. Still, the fact that the core stuff is so much stronger makes up for less effective support units. The exact same thing holds true for amulet templars. Since MM with stim is so ridiculously more effective than (charge-)lots/stalker/sentry, it makes sense that the HT in itself is much stronger than the ghost. I'm not saying everything about the amulet is balanced.
I'm saying that comparing the HT to the ghost MUST result in also comparing marine/marauder to the core protoss stuff. And this comparison won't go down all too well either.
Another point that's being missed here is the way protoss has to reinforce. Yes terrans will start with their "l2p"-comments, but it's a fact that toss has to go to a pylon to warp in stuff. While terran can stay with their army and just press the hotkeys. This means, the maths only hold true if you think that the toss player can immediately warp in when the cooldown is finished. Watching lots of pro-gamer-replays will tell you that this isn't the case. Even the best protoss players just can't warp in stuff immediately when they are microing their stuff around. Having the storm available immediately is a result from the different mechanics. Again, not saying it's fine no matter what.
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Killing a Terran planetary fortress just became impossible.
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On March 02 2011 22:18 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 21:58 iNbluE wrote:
HT still have the great advantage of being warped? Really? Yeah, it's probably a great idea to warp templars near the battlefield, cause they have a huge chance of surviving for a long time right? And they are absolutely EMP safe in the meantime!
Seriously... feedback?
The great thing with warping in units is to defend. Is feedback gonna help you defend? Maybe in 5% of the cases. Great deal.
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On March 02 2011 04:20 Darneck wrote:
And also since you said it is the same for protoss but the other way around it means that a terran will be able to get 2 ghosts ready to emp from 1 barracks a lot quicker than a protoss can get 2 high templars ready to storm from 1 gateway.
wrong. think it through
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On March 02 2011 22:18 Velocirapture wrote:
The funny thing about all of the arguments about the amulet is that almost none of them focus on the HT itself. Every zerg/terran is looking at the HT without KA and thinking "damn thats still super strong. I wish I could have that in my army." And the thing thats making me LOL is that toss do not disagree. Nobody in their right mind thinks that the unit in a vacuum is bad, the problem is that it loses 90% of its positive interactions with other toss units.
As the game stands, the ENTIRE protoss tech tree is balanced around HT and Collo. Why do we have BY FAR the least efficient tier 1/2 units in the game? Because if zealots were marines and stalkers were marauders then collo and HT would end the game the second they came out.
Basically what im saying is that this patch will destroy toss for a while so it is natural for there to be a violent reaction. These are growing pains and it is my prediction that 1.4 will come with an increase to warpgate research time, a heavy-ish nerf to collo and a HUGE buff to gateway units.
Lolz. This kind of statements are funny. Of course they don't focus on the HT itself. Things are interconnected, it would be stupid to do so. Also, if we're going with wishes, i bet every toss and zerg looks at the marine and says "woah i wish i had that in my army" or toss and terran looking at the mutas and saying the same, etc. Your statement isn't even an argument. It doesn't say a thing about the amulet removal and how it affects the race "Protoss". We're not saying how each race has something powerful and how each other wish they had those powerful things for themselves. We're discussing in what ways removal of the amulet affects for Protoss, and some like me might say, too negatively.
Most of the statements i see in favor of the removal of the amulet go something like this, with or without intention:
"Removal is good because [insert random fact about a protoss mechanic taken out of context or in unpractical terms and making it look too powerful]."
Never do you mention how is it that toss are supposed to cost effectively counter terran drops, how it affects their mobility even more, since they have the slowest army except for terran going heavy siege tank, how is isn't fair the much greater requirement of speading HT and how careful one must be because of easy EMPs winning the game, without any chance of recovery. Never mentioning how powerful terran drops, and how they need a quick response or a lot of damage is going to happen very fast, etc etc. Please look at what you wrote, from Protoss perspective as well. People can root for their race, but above that for a balanced game, since that brings more players and viewers, and that can only be good for you as well.
I'd also rather they don't buff gate units, otherwise it will be a warpgate fest as boring as Terrans going bio. Let these weaker units be used at the start of the game, and as the game progresses using other more powerful, as immo, colossus, HT, dt etc, terran with helions, thors, tanks, zerg ultras, (better broods), etc with tier 1 unit as support.
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The problem with removing the amulet is simply PvT. Currently, ghosts have a longer range, general utility (can actually fight), and do instant damage. That means the effects/units/ect. are comparable. The problem is with cloaking and a longer range (add in scan if you like) and they can all but ensure getting off EMP before the templars can storm.
The essential counter to this was to warp in a templar, storm, morph to archon. This means protoss was effectively paying 50 minerals and 150 gas for 1 storm. Yes, storm is cool and all but is it really worth 150 gas?
Instead, I could get a colossus. Even if they have a lot of vikings, the colossus has a lot of HP's and will do enough splash damage to be better than that storm. The colossus also has a longer range, can walk up walls, ect. Since terran will now be able to emp and neuter templars at will, colossus will simply be the only logical option in PvT.
Templar storms are not OP, to all those who were claiming they were. Try comparing a couple storms on a mineral line to a marauder/marine/baneling/ect. drop.
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On March 02 2011 22:39 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 22:18 Velocirapture wrote:
The funny thing about all of the arguments about the amulet is that almost none of them focus on the HT itself. Every zerg/terran is looking at the HT without KA and thinking "damn thats still super strong. I wish I could have that in my army." And the thing thats making me LOL is that toss do not disagree. Nobody in their right mind thinks that the unit in a vacuum is bad, the problem is that it loses 90% of its positive interactions with other toss units.
As the game stands, the ENTIRE protoss tech tree is balanced around HT and Collo. Why do we have BY FAR the least efficient tier 1/2 units in the game? Because if zealots were marines and stalkers were marauders then collo and HT would end the game the second they came out.
Basically what im saying is that this patch will destroy toss for a while so it is natural for there to be a violent reaction. These are growing pains and it is my prediction that 1.4 will come with an increase to warpgate research time, a heavy-ish nerf to collo and a HUGE buff to gateway units. Lolz. This kind of statements are funny. Of course they don't focus on the HT itself. Things are interconnected, it would be stupid to do so. Also, if we're going with wishes, i bet every toss and zerg looks at the marine and says "woah i wish i had that in my army" or toss and terran looking at the mutas and saying the same, etc. Your statement isn't even an argument. It doesn't say a thing about the amulet removal and how it affects the race "Protoss". We're not saying how each race has something powerful and how each other wish they had those powerful things for themselves. We're discussing in what ways removal of the amulet affects for Protoss, and some like me might say, too negatively. Most of the statements i see in favor of the removal of the amulet go something like this, with or without intention: "Removal is good because [insert random fact about a protoss mechanic taken out of context or in unpractical terms and making it look too powerful]." Never do you mention how is it that toss are supposed to cost effectively counter terran drops, how it affects their mobility even more, since they have the slowest army except for terran going heavy siege tank, how is isn't fair the much greater requirement of speading HT and how careful one must be because of easy EMPs winning the game, without any chance of recovery. Never mentioning how powerful terran drops, and how they need a quick response or a lot of damage is going to happen very fast, etc etc. Please look at what you wrote, from Protoss perspective as well. People can root for their race, but above that for a balanced game, since that brings more players and viewers, and that can only be good for you as well. I'd also rather they don't buff gate units, otherwise it will be a warpgate fest as boring as Terrans going bio.
I am a protoss player and I feel like you didnt even read what I wrote. Im pretty explicit that toss leans on the HT for alot and that removing warp in storms breaks toss. You mention countering drops, I totally agree that when 2 dropships fall in your base and your army moves at 2.25 storm is barely enough atm. Also you didnt even look at my "wishlist" apparently as I explicitly state that I think a warpgate timing nerf will be in the future (i dont know how this will look but I think that they need to break 4 gate before they can buff gate units in any real way).
You are one of those toss just acting on emotion right now. Relax man, we will have our day even if it doesnt look like we want it to.
I would also like to say that when I was mentioning the zerg/terran thought process it was more so that toss understand that they dont feel our pain (which I think is pretty reasonable from their position of ignorance)
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As a toss player i expected slightly collossus nerf to make stargate and templar tech more viable with very minor buff to gateway units (something like chargelots buff in upcoming patch, or sth like as stalker shoots 2 laser beams for every weapon upgrade dmg would increase for +2, like with zealots). Instead, they are nerfing longest possible tech tree, making it incredibly weak, only crazy people will chose this path, if they remove amulet they should remove storm upgrade so ht's are coming rdy with storm, it would make toss weaker lategame, with stronger midgame, but its still questionable cause of midgame advantage, maybe if there is some super buff to archons, like make them massive so they cannot be slowed, with more aoe or sth like that... its really ungrateful decision for blizzard to make and i can really see this tech tree slowly dying and being viable only in straight scenarios
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On March 02 2011 22:36 iNbluE wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 22:18 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On March 02 2011 21:58 iNbluE wrote:
HT still have the great advantage of being warped? Really? Yeah, it's probably a great idea to warp templars near the battlefield, cause they have a huge chance of surviving for a long time right? And they are absolutely EMP safe in the meantime!
Seriously... feedback? The great thing with warping in units is to defend. Is feedback gonna help you defend? Maybe in 5% of the cases. Great deal.
feedback nullifies medivacs which is a HUGE deal . and if you would spend more time with the game instead of whining here you would know that. without medivacs a upgraded gateway army stomps rine/rauder. without medivacs you just need a few chargelots and stalkers to clean up any small-medium sized drop.
plus some nice extra uses against potential banshees,ghosts,bcs etc.
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Do people really think that protoss will still make HTs when amulet is removed?
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On March 02 2011 21:28 Eraz0rZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 21:08 Whiteaegis wrote:On March 02 2011 04:25 tehemperorer wrote:
Logic is flawed, OP. HT are instantly countered by ghosts. 1 EMP makes every HT lose shields and not be able to cast storm for 2 minutes and 13 seconds. If you were protoss and chose the HT tech path, you are shit out of luck. If Terran attacks in that 2 min 13 seconds, you will lose without the amulet. What's the solution? Go colossus. What does Terran do? Blindly build reactored vikings before you even have a robo facility. They can mass the cheap vikings before you even have 1 colossus, before range, and without scouting or scanning. It makes the PvT metagame so predictable for both sides, except the Terran have it better in viking/MMM because of mineral advantage and the ease of massing their units. Ironic that you accuse the poster of having flawed logic. 1. 1 EMP only makes every HT lose shields and not be able to cast ONLY IF you clumped all your HTs together and put them at the front of your army. If this is true, you deserved to lose the match. 2. You seem to be complaining that it's unfair that Terran have a cost-effective counter to colossi, a unit that would utterly dominate a Terran army. 3. It's only your opinion that Terran have it better in viking/MMM. I actually disagree with that. Note: Presence of bias is obvious in your argument. I think its funny the whole EMP spread units thing. What about storms... spread units? seriously if your retarded that you use that as an argument you shouldnt be whining about storm in the first place.
Lol at your blind, knee jerk reaction. Youre pretty retarded yourself since you completely missed the point of this thread.
The thread is talking about the time it takes to get a key spells up and ready. With KA upgrade, HTs are much more flexible with their 5 second warp in. They can be warped in at a key location in 5 seconds and have a storm ready to go. Ghosts and Infestors have to be built beforehand. With HT, you can say "Im being dropped by marines, Ill warp in an HT and that should deal with it". With Ghosts or Infestors, you cant say "Im getting hit at location X, ill make one and that should deal with it". This is NOT about spreading vs EMP and Storm.
Tehemperorer made the awful and idiotic assumption that 1 EMP will automatically nullify every HT in the game at any point in time, thereby making the charge up time for Storm 2 min 13 seconds. He ignored the fact that HT can be spread out to force the Terran to spend much more time, APM, and EMPs to nullify Storm. He also ignored the MUCH more important point that HTs can be warped in to places where EMPs wont be. For instance, defending a mineral line from a marine drop usually will be Ghost-less. Also, Storm dropping usually avoids ghosts as well.
You should really think before posting. It helps to make yourself look less like an asshat
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The tone of this thread is way out of hand. People are doing way more typing than reading it seems. Although I cant blame them cuz making it through this whole thing made me red in the face numerous times and I have a pretty even temperament.
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On March 02 2011 23:05 Supamang wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 21:28 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 21:08 Whiteaegis wrote:On March 02 2011 04:25 tehemperorer wrote:
Logic is flawed, OP. HT are instantly countered by ghosts. 1 EMP makes every HT lose shields and not be able to cast storm for 2 minutes and 13 seconds. If you were protoss and chose the HT tech path, you are shit out of luck. If Terran attacks in that 2 min 13 seconds, you will lose without the amulet. What's the solution? Go colossus. What does Terran do? Blindly build reactored vikings before you even have a robo facility. They can mass the cheap vikings before you even have 1 colossus, before range, and without scouting or scanning. It makes the PvT metagame so predictable for both sides, except the Terran have it better in viking/MMM because of mineral advantage and the ease of massing their units. Ironic that you accuse the poster of having flawed logic. 1. 1 EMP only makes every HT lose shields and not be able to cast ONLY IF you clumped all your HTs together and put them at the front of your army. If this is true, you deserved to lose the match. 2. You seem to be complaining that it's unfair that Terran have a cost-effective counter to colossi, a unit that would utterly dominate a Terran army. 3. It's only your opinion that Terran have it better in viking/MMM. I actually disagree with that. Note: Presence of bias is obvious in your argument. I think its funny the whole EMP spread units thing. What about storms... spread units? seriously if your retarded that you use that as an argument you shouldnt be whining about storm in the first place. Lol at your blind, knee jerk reaction. Youre pretty retarded yourself since you completely missed the point of this thread.The thread is talking about the time it takes to get a key spells up and ready. With KA upgrade, HTs are much more flexible with their 5 second warp in. They can be warped in at a key location in 5 seconds and have a storm ready to go. Ghosts and Infestors have to be built beforehand. With HT, you can say "Im being dropped by marines, Ill warp in an HT and that should deal with it". With Ghosts or Infestors, you cant say "Im getting hit at location X, ill make one and that should deal with it". This is NOT about spreading vs EMP and Storm. Tehemperorer made the awful and idiotic assumption that 1 EMP will automatically nullify every HT in the game at any point in time, thereby making the charge up time for Storm 2 min 13 seconds. He ignored the fact that HT can be spread out to force the Terran to spend much more time, APM, and EMPs to nullify Storm. He also ignored the MUCH more important point that HTs can be warped in to places where EMPs wont be. For instance, defending a mineral line from a marine drop usually will be Ghost-less. Also, Storm dropping usually avoids ghosts as well. You should really think before posting. It helps to make yourself look less like an asshat
why say these sentences?
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EPT
