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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On April 30 2011 02:56 zanmat0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 23:43 zul wrote:
Protoss: warps in HT (5 Seconds)
Terran: produces Ghost (40 Seconds)
Zerg: morphs Infestor (50 Seconds)
Protoss: Storm research 110s (chronoboosted 73s)
Terran: Moebius Reactor research 80 Seconds (+25 Starting Energy)
Zerg: Pathogen Glands research 80 Seconds (+25 Starting Energy)
so if all races start production and spell-research at the same time, which race will be the first to use their spell and will the advantage be significant?
HTs will be able to cast at 11:18 Minute (right after Storm finished) while Ghosts and Infestors pop out at 10:40 / 10:50 and have to wait 45 seconds for their energy to reach 75, since the upgrades are still in research. Now lets look at a later stage in the game - the 15 Minute mark. Again all three race initiate Caster production.
Protoss: HT can storm at 15:50 (waiting for 25 Energy takes 45 s)
Terran: Ghost EMP at 15:40
Zerg: Infestor Fungal Growth at 15:50
In addition High Templers can counter both of the other casters with feedback as soon as they are warped in. All in All this looks pretty fair in terms of "time". Good job leaving out half of the relevant analysis in your post. Tech trees? WG cooldowns? Feedback ST vs EMP AoE? HT vulnerability while charging up? HT speed? It's simple-minded buffoons like you, who see everything in terms of black and white, that are convincing others that the balance and fun of SC2 can be tuned to basic math alone.
can you please leave your arrogance out of your posts and state some useful facts. You could start by answering your own questions.
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On April 30 2011 02:08 dmillz wrote:
HT's are just fine still, I see them used a LOT because they do sooooo much damage. I ROFL every time I read a protoss whining about drops, you have WARP IN, that immediately makes your drop defense the best of all the races. Warping in a round of zealots or stalkers immediately nullifies a drop. This is a HUGE benefit because you don't have to move your army back into your base.
You obviously don't play Protoss. " Warping in a round of zealots or stalkers immediately nullifies a drop." Cmon man? Have you ever defended a drop with those units? (with just a few of them) The way Protoss works is like this. We pay more for our units, that take more time to make, and do more damage. We keep our expensive shit together, so it can live longer. If you attack small groups of Protoss units with equally small groups of Terran units the efficiency is reversed. The Terran army will decimate the Toss in small numbers almost everytime. The units you are talking about defending with are usually* just support units for the Protoss units people actually like to use.
Edit: Though I do feel HT are just fine 
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On April 30 2011 04:03 zul wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 02:56 zanmat0 wrote:On April 29 2011 23:43 zul wrote:
Protoss: warps in HT (5 Seconds)
Terran: produces Ghost (40 Seconds)
Zerg: morphs Infestor (50 Seconds)
Protoss: Storm research 110s (chronoboosted 73s)
Terran: Moebius Reactor research 80 Seconds (+25 Starting Energy)
Zerg: Pathogen Glands research 80 Seconds (+25 Starting Energy)
so if all races start production and spell-research at the same time, which race will be the first to use their spell and will the advantage be significant?
HTs will be able to cast at 11:18 Minute (right after Storm finished) while Ghosts and Infestors pop out at 10:40 / 10:50 and have to wait 45 seconds for their energy to reach 75, since the upgrades are still in research. Now lets look at a later stage in the game - the 15 Minute mark. Again all three race initiate Caster production.
Protoss: HT can storm at 15:50 (waiting for 25 Energy takes 45 s)
Terran: Ghost EMP at 15:40
Zerg: Infestor Fungal Growth at 15:50
In addition High Templers can counter both of the other casters with feedback as soon as they are warped in. All in All this looks pretty fair in terms of "time". Good job leaving out half of the relevant analysis in your post. Tech trees? WG cooldowns? Feedback ST vs EMP AoE? HT vulnerability while charging up? HT speed? It's simple-minded buffoons like you, who see everything in terms of black and white, that are convincing others that the balance and fun of SC2 can be tuned to basic math alone. can you please leave your arrogance out of your posts and state some useful facts. You could start by answering your own questions.
there is no need to answer those questions because the answers are obvious to anyone who plays this game. i was pointing out the fact that they are absolutely lacking in your post, which makes it a fundamentally flawed analysis (<- useful fact.)
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On April 30 2011 04:11 zanmat0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 04:03 zul wrote:On April 30 2011 02:56 zanmat0 wrote:On April 29 2011 23:43 zul wrote:
Protoss: warps in HT (5 Seconds)
Terran: produces Ghost (40 Seconds)
Zerg: morphs Infestor (50 Seconds)
Protoss: Storm research 110s (chronoboosted 73s)
Terran: Moebius Reactor research 80 Seconds (+25 Starting Energy)
Zerg: Pathogen Glands research 80 Seconds (+25 Starting Energy)
so if all races start production and spell-research at the same time, which race will be the first to use their spell and will the advantage be significant?
HTs will be able to cast at 11:18 Minute (right after Storm finished) while Ghosts and Infestors pop out at 10:40 / 10:50 and have to wait 45 seconds for their energy to reach 75, since the upgrades are still in research. Now lets look at a later stage in the game - the 15 Minute mark. Again all three race initiate Caster production.
Protoss: HT can storm at 15:50 (waiting for 25 Energy takes 45 s)
Terran: Ghost EMP at 15:40
Zerg: Infestor Fungal Growth at 15:50
In addition High Templers can counter both of the other casters with feedback as soon as they are warped in. All in All this looks pretty fair in terms of "time". Good job leaving out half of the relevant analysis in your post. Tech trees? WG cooldowns? Feedback ST vs EMP AoE? HT vulnerability while charging up? HT speed? It's simple-minded buffoons like you, who see everything in terms of black and white, that are convincing others that the balance and fun of SC2 can be tuned to basic math alone. can you please leave your arrogance out of your posts and state some useful facts. You could start by answering your own questions. there is no need to answer those questions because the answers are obvious to anyone who plays this game. i was pointing out the fact that they are absolutely lacking in your post, which makes it a fundamentally flawed analysis (<- useful fact.)
I just compared the casters in term of "how much time does it take till they can be used". of course this is no complete game analysis - how could it be. What I`m not too happy about is the way you react. Instead of adding something usefull to what I started you just focus on what might be missing.
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You know what'd be a cool solution? Replace KA with a blink ability for HT. I'd be happy with that.
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Should I have started a new thread?
My initial question when I revived this thread was whether or not people have figured out how to use templars strategically -- that is, whether or not they've figured out mid-game builds that don't leave you vulnerable while you're sinking 500+ gas into templar tech.
Drop defense sucks now for protoss, yes, but more fundamentally it's become extremely difficult to survive late game without resorting to colossus, and like I said, I feel colossus deathball is boring.
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On April 30 2011 06:27 dump wrote:
Should I have started a new thread?
My initial question when I revived this thread was whether or not people have figured out how to use templars strategically -- that is, whether or not they've figured out mid-game builds that don't leave you vulnerable while you're sinking 500+ gas into templar tech.
Drop defense sucks now for protoss, yes, but more fundamentally it's become extremely difficult to survive late game without resorting to colossus, and like I said, I feel colossus deathball is boring.
You can still get HT's and they are fine. They get storms fast enough (if you get them soon enough) to handle most things when you need them, and you can still plan on warping in feedbacks and such. I think most people were afraid before the patch came out and didn't wanna even try and use them anymore. Honestly I almost never get more than 4 colos because while I feel like they are okay. I'd rather waste my opponents resources on AA that he won't need while I can add robos and make tons of Immos or just switch tech completely (like using HT's or Carriers  ). So lately I'd even say I haven't been winning the games with the colos, they just help getting to a point where I can win without them. Archons are getting a buff too!
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Okay, I just had a simple idea that I think would make HT useful and balanced. Make the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade the same as what we had in Brood War, that is it upgrades HT's to start with 62.5 energy, that way it avoids the huge warp in storms that happen with 75 energy, and it makes them not a useless unit for too long. Worked then, why not now?
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On May 01 2011 20:52 Aeropunk wrote:
Okay, I just had a simple idea that I think would make HT useful and balanced. Make the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade the same as what we had in Brood War, that is it upgrades HT's to start with 62.5 energy, that way it avoids the huge warp in storms that happen with 75 energy, and it makes them not a useless unit for too long. Worked then, why not now?
We've been talking about that. I think Blizz would have at least considered it too, considering they have BW to refer to. Why they don't do that is totally beyond me too. Why they didn't nerf colossus before templar is also beyond me.
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EPT
