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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 24 2011 08:58 Mali__Slon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 08:15 Dalavita wrote:On March 24 2011 07:29 Mali__Slon wrote:
All this remind me of the siege tank nerf from 50 to 35 vs light. Most of the terrans were saying - shit now a crap ton of chargelots will storm through my tank lines, or even mass zerglins because with one hit i can kill only one zergling or baneling. And then terrans adapted, started spreading siege tnaks, putting them in multiple lines, giving them proper support.
Now toss players are whining, my ht is worthless, i am losing every single game because of the nerf. Chances are you would be still losing even if KA wasnt removed. HT is still poweful unit, just requiers more planing, more strategical thinking. Err. The tank nerf did change the matchup. People don't use tanks nearly as much in PvT anymore, where they were used frequently before the nerf. I never said that it didnt. Terrans just adapted to use tanks a little differently. Eg they were must in any terran arsenal. All terran games were basically built around tanks. With nerf bio started evolving, and now tanks to some players like Jinro we see that tanks are still viable option.
Why are you spouting off about something you clearly have no clue about? TvP has been primarily bio since the very beginning of beta. Terrans were experimenting with tanks in TvP as well but it was never standard. Before tank/marine became standard for TvZ, terrams were basically doing MMM or pure mech.
I think the 2nd tank nerf (50 dmg to light -> 35 dmg to light) is the single worst change blizzard has made since beta. It made tanks utter crap against protoss, hardly changed TvZ at all, while making TvT a bio fest.
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On March 28 2011 07:47 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 08:58 Mali__Slon wrote:On March 24 2011 08:15 Dalavita wrote:On March 24 2011 07:29 Mali__Slon wrote:
All this remind me of the siege tank nerf from 50 to 35 vs light. Most of the terrans were saying - shit now a crap ton of chargelots will storm through my tank lines, or even mass zerglins because with one hit i can kill only one zergling or baneling. And then terrans adapted, started spreading siege tnaks, putting them in multiple lines, giving them proper support.
Now toss players are whining, my ht is worthless, i am losing every single game because of the nerf. Chances are you would be still losing even if KA wasnt removed. HT is still poweful unit, just requiers more planing, more strategical thinking. Err. The tank nerf did change the matchup. People don't use tanks nearly as much in PvT anymore, where they were used frequently before the nerf. I never said that it didnt. Terrans just adapted to use tanks a little differently. Eg they were must in any terran arsenal. All terran games were basically built around tanks. With nerf bio started evolving, and now tanks to some players like Jinro we see that tanks are still viable option. Why are you spouting off about something you clearly have no clue about? TvP has been primarily bio since the very beginning of beta. Terrans were experimenting with tanks in TvP as well but it was never standard. Before tank/marine became standard for TvZ, terrams were basically doing MMM or pure mech. I think the 2nd tank nerf (50 dmg to light -> 35 dmg to light) is the single worst change blizzard has made since beta. It made tanks utter crap against protoss, hardly changed TvZ at all, while making TvT a bio fest.
The tank nerf was indeed the single worst change, for mainly TvP. Well, TvZ it made it harder to play defensive macro mech because lots of stuff can roll over a mech army that you'd normally think would win.
Same goes for TvP, a army in brood war that you would never 1a into, with the tank nerf, P can 1a into your already sieged mech army and somehow win.
TvT, you can still go full mech, it didn't change much there, it's just most people prefer bio or tank/marine.
Mainly it made tanks not worth it in TvP. If you make tanks in TvP you have to fully commit to mech because if you half ass it with bio+mech you get steamrolled from not having good upgrades and being immobile with half your army. So most people either go full bio + viking + ghost, or go ghostmech.
Tanks were awesome TvP in beta...until the simultaneous tank nerf + zealot armor change.
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So it's been about a month. Have people figured out how to use templars without khaydarin?
I got demoted to plat. Can't survive late game anymore.
How's everyone else doing?
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On April 29 2011 20:18 dump wrote:
So it's been about a month. Have people figured out how to use templars without khaydarin?
I got demoted to plat. Can't survive late game anymore.
How's everyone else doing?
making them 50 seconds before they are needed like the other 2 races?
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On April 29 2011 20:22 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 20:18 dump wrote:
So it's been about a month. Have people figured out how to use templars without khaydarin?
I got demoted to plat. Can't survive late game anymore.
How's everyone else doing? making them 50 seconds before they are needed like the other 2 races?
Making plenty and plenty early, but it cuts into my sentry budget.
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I never make them anymore. Dont see any point to making them unless its super late game and i can shit on resources. Always go collossi, sometimes voidray.
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I've seen protoss pro's use them still. Still seems to have potential.
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On April 29 2011 21:34 nihlon wrote:
I've seen protoss pro's use them still. Still seems to have potential.
I don't doubt it, but what I'm curious about is whether it's still practical for us mere mortals in diamond (and apparently now even plat) to use templar.
I've been avoiding colossus as much as I can just because it's so boring, but I think it's the only way I'll get back into diamond. Which is just sad, because I wasn't exactly low diamond either -- I've been in diamond since back in the betas.
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People perfered colossi over templar pre-patch, and people still do. I'm a protoss player and I'm not botherd by the nerf. When Archons become massive, people might tech to HTs to get early archons vs mass mutas, or use them as tanks vs kiting marauders.
Storm will still be used, but I doubt pros will use it as their direct tech path. Maybe if storm would stun for .5 seconds or something.
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On April 29 2011 21:42 Kwaa wrote:
People perfered colossi over templar pre-patch, and people still do. I'm a protoss player and I'm not botherd by the nerf. When Archons become massive, people might tech to HTs to get early archons vs mass mutas, or use them as tanks vs kiting marauders.
Storm will still be used, but I doubt pros will use it as their direct tech path. Maybe if storm would stun for .5 seconds or something.
I'm not sure what good being massive does against zerg? It only makes a difference to phoenix, void rays and corruptors.
Edit: And yeah, marauders, but I'm even more hesitant now to morph archons since the patch, especially against units with a significant range and focus-fire dps advantage.
People have always preferred colossi because it's easy. Maybe it's just because I'm playing against really weak players now that I feel like colossi give me an a-move victory, but I found it really boring even when I was at the top of my diamond division...
They just don't have that oomph that reavers had, nor the "YEAH BURN BABY BURN" that templars have. It just feels like stepping on ants.
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HT are still viable at high level, but not without the collosi. The nerf just makes protoss rely on collosi even more. Who would use a unit that slow, cannot use right away, can only use once most of the time, when you have a strong unit that is extremely cost efficience, and can do consistence AOE damamge? think about it, people say that protoss player need to warp in ahead of time like other two races, that's a completely wrong way to think about it, they are 3 different races, you cannot compare units by units. If you want it to be balanced like that, then we should just have only terran and remove protoss and zerg already. If david kim still insists to keep the nerf, then i think that he should at least makes storm ready for the templar as without the collosi tech, there will be a HUGE timing window terran player or zerg player can attack the protoss player who went for high templar tech.
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They're absolutely worthless now, as expected. And with the ghost buff next patch, they might as well flat out remove them along with sentries. Protoss has effectively been dumbed down to 1a Colossi.
Thanks Blizz. Keep on ruining your game.
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On April 29 2011 21:57 brachester wrote:
HT are still viable at high level, but not without the collosi. The nerf just makes protoss rely on collosi even more. Who would use a unit that slow, cannot use right away, can only use once most of the time, when you have a strong unit that is extremely cost efficience, and can do consistence AOE damamge? think about it, people say that protoss player need to warp in ahead of time like other two races, that's a completely wrong way to think about it, they are 3 different races, you cannot compare units by units. If you want it to be balanced like that, then we should just have only terran and remove protoss and zerg already. If david kim still insists to keep the nerf, then i think that he should at least makes storm ready for the templar as without the collosi tech, there will be a HUGE timing window terran player or zerg player can attack the protoss player who went for high templar tech.
Yeah, it's that timing window that always gets me killed. Against terran I normally do 2-3 colossi just to survive the two-base bioball wave, but terran invariably responds with vikings, so you have to switch to templar. Problem is the several gas gaps:
-one when you're buying your archives, storm and first templar -- which until completion is a complete and utter 500 gas vacuum. That's 2 and a half colossi.
-right after you use your first batch -- before, you'd have your khaydarin done by then, but now your second batch of templar just don't make it to work on time.
Ultimately it turns out that it's better to just spend all that money on getting tons and tons of colossi and stalker, and hoping your colossi survive long enough.
Against zerg, it's really hard not to get overwhelmed late game by 14 hatch builds. Yeah, you can obstruct the hatchery with your probe, but on any 4 player map there's a 1/3 chance that you won't make it on time, and on huge maps like shakuras plateau there's a 1/2 chance that you won't make it on time.
At least, that's the experience I've been having at my level of play.
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I see a lot of value in the analysis, but I would like to point out a few key things.
The analysis, in the way that it states things, does make the casters seems balanced with the KA removal.
However, when you look at the casters across more aspects;
1 - Ghosts can not only cloak, but can also attack and snipe. (Defensive and offensive abilities in addition to their "casting" aoe damage abilities.)
2 - Infestors can burrow, and if their ability hits units can't just move out of it. The fungal growth will always do full damage to the units it hits. Infestors can't auto attack like HT's, but they at least have a 3rd ability that doesn't permanently transform them into another unit.
3 - Both Ghosts and Infestors can move at a decent speed comparable to the rest of the army.
When you take these extra things into consideration, I don't feel that the casters are balanced. Does putting KA back address these issues specifically? No. But its existence gave an overall feeling of balance.
A reason FOR KA was that if there's drop harrass. A ghost or infestor can get to the drop area (especially if it's scouted) and respond in a decent amount of time. Getting an HT from even just your natural to your main is laughable. So waiting the 5 second warp in time (assuming you had a warpgate with a cooldown available) to storm the drop (which could move out of the storm btw) was a reasonable way for the caster to handle the harrassment. Now that's gone, and you have to leave an HT in your mineral lines INCASE there's a drop.
Terran and zerg have much better scouting abilities (sensory towers and overlords/creep). Granted this is only because of Protoss's huge reliance on colossus. If Protoss didn't have to have so many colossus and the gateway units had more beef to them, you could sacrifice 1-2 colossus for a couple extra observers for scouting.
TL/DR: There's more to casters than what the OP stated that makes casters unbalanced after the KA removal.
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On April 29 2011 22:12 zanmat0 wrote:
They're absolutely worthless now, as expected. And with the ghost buff next patch, they might as well flat out remove them along with sentries. Protoss has effectively been dumbed down to 1a Colossi.
Thanks Blizz. Keep on ruining your game.
And yet these "worthless" units win games at the pro level. There was no way MC would have won that game vs. Thorzain if he hadn't gone Templar tech, the feedbacks allowed him to deal with the EMPs the ghosts were dishing out with added utility to storm the bio. Not only that, Archons are about to become a great deal better versus Terran.
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On April 29 2011 22:58 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 22:12 zanmat0 wrote:
They're absolutely worthless now, as expected. And with the ghost buff next patch, they might as well flat out remove them along with sentries. Protoss has effectively been dumbed down to 1a Colossi.
Thanks Blizz. Keep on ruining your game. And yet these "worthless" units win games at the pro level. There was no way MC would have won that game vs. Thorzain if he hadn't gone Templar tech, the feedbacks allowed him to deal with the EMPs the ghosts were dishing out with added utility to storm the bio. Not only that, Archons are about to become a great deal better versus Terran.
So just because the best player in the world, with 300 apm, can still squeeze some usefulness out of the crippled unit makes it all okay?
Those same pro players did perfectly fine against pre 1.3 HTs by the way, and so did the majority of the community. If you recall, the main complaint pre-patch was that Colossi were too powerful and still nothing has been done to address that.
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This fails to recognize that by removing the amulet, HT have a 50s vulnerable time in which they can be killed before they can ever cast storm that other casters with their energy upgrade do not have. Additionally, ghosts come off rax tech, infesters come off lair tech, while HT don't come until all the way down at templar tech. It takes a lot more tech to get storm + amulet Templar than it does to get an EMP or Fungal.
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On April 29 2011 23:07 zanmat0 wrote:
the main complaint pre-patch was that Colossi were too powerful and still nothing has been done to address that.
I can't find the source (maybe someone can find it, it was Blizzard explaining why they did the things they did last patch), but Blizzard basically said Colossus and warp in Storms were OP, but nerfing both would make Protoss UP. So they decided to nerf HT first to see how everything goes before they do any more changes.
Expect to keep making Colossus for another patch or two.
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What I find interesting is that KA was removed because instant storm was apparently OP. However, Fungal Growth is now much more powerful than Storm and you can still cast that instantly with pathogen glands. There is a logical flaw in there.
"But REM, insta storm wasn't the problem, insta WARP IN storm was the problem."
Well then KA wasn't broken, warp-in is. Bring back KA and take out warp-in, herp derp. 
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On April 29 2011 23:22 Creep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 23:07 zanmat0 wrote:
the main complaint pre-patch was that Colossi were too powerful and still nothing has been done to address that. I can't find the source (maybe someone can find it, it was Blizzard explaining why they did the things they did last patch), but Blizzard basically said Colossus and warp in Storms were OP, but nerfing both would make Protoss UP. So they decided to nerf HT first to see how everything goes before they do any more changes. Expect to keep making Colossus for another patch or two.
They said this, but more specifically they stated that they felt the warp in HT's with storm was too good of a defense for harrassment drops.
This I disagree with. I used to play toss, and now play zerg and see a lot of value in being able to have a chance at defending vs muta harass and bio drops with storm.
But if the harrasser micro's well, he can just avoid the storm all together.
I guess I just didn't buy that as a good reason, when I felt that warp in storms was more of a necessity to have a shot at defending drops.
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EPT
