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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 24 2011 08:58 Mali__Slon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 08:15 Dalavita wrote:On March 24 2011 07:29 Mali__Slon wrote:
All this remind me of the siege tank nerf from 50 to 35 vs light. Most of the terrans were saying - shit now a crap ton of chargelots will storm through my tank lines, or even mass zerglins because with one hit i can kill only one zergling or baneling. And then terrans adapted, started spreading siege tnaks, putting them in multiple lines, giving them proper support.
Now toss players are whining, my ht is worthless, i am losing every single game because of the nerf. Chances are you would be still losing even if KA wasnt removed. HT is still poweful unit, just requiers more planing, more strategical thinking. Err. The tank nerf did change the matchup. People don't use tanks nearly as much in PvT anymore, where they were used frequently before the nerf. I never said that it didnt. Terrans just adapted to use tanks a little differently. Eg they were must in any terran arsenal. All terran games were basically built around tanks. With nerf bio started evolving, and now tanks to some players like Jinro we see that tanks are still viable option.
Yeah, but the thing is, it's not as fun anymore. There isn't the tank vs. tank micro battles that you used to see before. You can't use the splash damage to kill cloaked units. You can't use a player's tank splash against himself to kill his SCVs.
Also, if not for the tank nerf, I doubt we would have seen Boxer's excruciatingly boring and disappointing TSL games.
+ Show Spoiler +All he did was 200/200 ghost death ball vs. 200/200 colossus death ball. This is the boxer we're talking about.
Same deal with the HT nerf too, really.
Although ideally I think what would be nice is if colossus is also nerfed and something else is buffed, so that we start having some more variety.
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Viking > Phoenix
Phoenix only beat vikings if the T is asleep. Viking have 9 range and phoenix have a 4 not to mention viking isn't a light unit.
SO sick of T trying to say "OOO just go phoenix and stop QQ" but guess what phoenix does NOT beat viking.
Viking counters lets see,,,, everything late game Protoss can make. You are forced to use stalkers to shoot them down.
Sorry getting off topic that was just bugging me.
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I think a lot of the people here are looking at this the wrong way. I don't think blizzard is setting this game up for the competitive players. As discussed in the SOTG, blizzard is just trying to make the game for the masses, the lower level casual players. At the lower/casual level play people just don't doge storms. They sit under the storm and continue to fight. This is where the KA becomes "imbalanced" imagine two players with 30 APM going at eachother. The protoss player with HT will most likely storm his enemy, and if he wins the battle he will most likely just continue to attack, and hope to win the game. But the problem arises if he thinks the terran will win the battle. He will quickly reinforce HTs with KA from his massive bank he probably has, and at least manage to hold it off. That's where it becomes OPed. Blizzard, as we've seen since the release, sort of decided that they just wanna make the money. Best way to make money for blizzard really, is to make the game the most appealing to the largest number of people. That is not necessarily in line with trying to make the game most balanced at the highest level.
That's why I don't think the marauders/concussive shell will ever be nerfed. Unless "most people" who play starcraft becomes good enough to kite, it's not really an overpowering ability. I'm sure blizzard makes SOME efforts to try to make the game better for the competitive players (such as the charge lot "buff") but that's not their first priority it seems. They want to make the game better for the competitive players within the bounds of the game being "balanced" for the everyday user who plays 5 hours a week. So the only real way to force blizzard to care more about the competitive players is to make everyone who played SC2 at least competent at the game. Anything short of that, blizzard will continue to roll out patches with the bronze/sliver/gold players in mind. this is not a shot against lower level players, but more of a shot at blizzard if anything i suppose.
I will be keeping my 2cent on how i feel the game should've been balanced because I feel like me posting my opinion about that on here will most likely make no difference whatsoever. (Yayy I'm 2 cents richer than everyone else that posted on here :-p)
I just want this mindless flaming to stop and realize Blizzard is only going to continue doing what makes them the most money, not what makes E-Sports better...
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On March 24 2011 19:08 TossNub wrote:
I think a lot of the people here are looking at this the wrong way. I don't think blizzard is setting this game up for the competitive players. As discussed in the SOTG, blizzard is just trying to make the game for the masses, the lower level casual players. At the lower/casual level play people just don't doge storms. They sit under the storm and continue to fight. This is where the KA becomes "imbalanced" imagine two players with 30 APM going at eachother. The protoss player with HT will most likely storm his enemy, and if he wins the battle he will most likely just continue to attack, and hope to win the game. But the problem arises if he thinks the terran will win the battle. He will quickly reinforce HTs with KA from his massive bank he probably has, and at least manage to hold it off. That's where it becomes OPed. Blizzard, as we've seen since the release, sort of decided that they just wanna make the money. Best way to make money for blizzard really, is to make the game the most appealing to the largest number of people. That is not necessarily in line with trying to make the game most balanced at the highest level.
That's why I don't think the marauders/concussive shell will ever be nerfed. Unless "most people" who play starcraft becomes good enough to kite, it's not really an overpowering ability. I'm sure blizzard makes SOME efforts to try to make the game better for the competitive players (such as the charge lot "buff") but that's not their first priority it seems. They want to make the game better for the competitive players within the bounds of the game being "balanced" for the everyday user who plays 5 hours a week. So the only real way to force blizzard to care more about the competitive players is to make everyone who played SC2 at least competent at the game. Anything short of that, blizzard will continue to roll out patches with the bronze/sliver/gold players in mind. this is not a shot against lower level players, but more of a shot at blizzard if anything i suppose.
I will be keeping my 2cent on how i feel the game should've been balanced because I feel like me posting my opinion about that on here will most likely make no difference whatsoever. (Yayy I'm 2 cents richer than everyone else that posted on here :-p)
I just want this mindless flaming to stop and realize Blizzard is only going to continue doing what makes them the most money, not what makes E-Sports better...
Blizzard the big bad monster! It's a conspiracy to keep their money-cogs turning. Who cares about competitive Starcraft, right?
Come on ...
*bahs like a sheep*
User was warned for this post
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On March 24 2011 19:08 TossNub wrote:
I think a lot of the people here are looking at this the wrong way. I don't think blizzard is setting this game up for the competitive players. As discussed in the SOTG, blizzard is just trying to make the game for the masses, the lower level casual players. At the lower/casual level play people just don't doge storms. They sit under the storm and continue to fight. This is where the KA becomes "imbalanced" imagine two players with 30 APM going at eachother. The protoss player with HT will most likely storm his enemy, and if he wins the battle he will most likely just continue to attack, and hope to win the game. But the problem arises if he thinks the terran will win the battle. He will quickly reinforce HTs with KA from his massive bank he probably has, and at least manage to hold it off. That's where it becomes OPed. Blizzard, as we've seen since the release, sort of decided that they just wanna make the money. Best way to make money for blizzard really, is to make the game the most appealing to the largest number of people. That is not necessarily in line with trying to make the game most balanced at the highest level.
That's why I don't think the marauders/concussive shell will ever be nerfed. Unless "most people" who play starcraft becomes good enough to kite, it's not really an overpowering ability. I'm sure blizzard makes SOME efforts to try to make the game better for the competitive players (such as the charge lot "buff") but that's not their first priority it seems. They want to make the game better for the competitive players within the bounds of the game being "balanced" for the everyday user who plays 5 hours a week. So the only real way to force blizzard to care more about the competitive players is to make everyone who played SC2 at least competent at the game. Anything short of that, blizzard will continue to roll out patches with the bronze/sliver/gold players in mind. this is not a shot against lower level players, but more of a shot at blizzard if anything i suppose.
I will be keeping my 2cent on how i feel the game should've been balanced because I feel like me posting my opinion about that on here will most likely make no difference whatsoever. (Yayy I'm 2 cents richer than everyone else that posted on here :-p)
I just want this mindless flaming to stop and realize Blizzard is only going to continue doing what makes them the most money, not what makes E-Sports better...
I'm getting really tired of the "Blizzard only cares about money, not e-sports" complaining that carries over from any discussion surrounding the company and KeSPA and Gretech and all the rest of that stuff.
If Starcraft is/becomes an e-sport, Blizzard will continue to make money either way -- it's in Blizzard's interest for Starcraft to become a world-wide hit, there is no question about this.
If you want mindless flaming to stop, then you need to stop making posts like this that theorycraft and are topics for flame bait. Blizzard has said before that they balance the game from the top-down, not bottom-up, so I don't understand your argument that KA is only "imbalanced"(TM) for newbies. Blizzard does not care about bronze players and their opinions other than hand-holding them. David Kim does not message bronze players asking for their opinions on balance changes, but he routinely messages pro players for their thoughts.
You're making a flame-bait post and complaining about people flaming. Nonsense.
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On March 24 2011 11:04 Dakkon B wrote:
Viking > Phoenix
Phoenix only beat vikings if the T is asleep. Viking have 9 range and phoenix have a 4 not to mention viking isn't a light unit. Phoenix is faster, can fire on the move, and the phoenix isn't armoured, these kind of stats are a great illustration but nothing like just firing up a tester and see how it works.
It turns out they are roughtly the same, the phoenix has a slight advantage but the viking is slightly cheaper of course.
Viking counters lets see,,,, everything late game Protoss can make. You are forced to use stalkers to shoot them down. With proper micro, carriers actually beat vikings cost for cost. Carrier kiting is pretty hard though due to the interceptor mechanics.
Anyway, OP, I get your point about that 'mechanics > balance' and I just wanted to facepalm every time people respond to balance while you clearly meant that removing khaydarin just makes for a better game. The point is that the issue is not the amulet but warp ins. When a protoss sees some mutalisks appear above his mineral line, he can just warp in stalkers, Zerg needs to make queens and spores in advance, Terran needs to have some marines already ready. When a protoss sees hellions coming to his line, the same thing.
Now, you could just say 'remove warp ins', and I believe you are sympathetic to this idea, let's just restrict this to just gameplay mechanics and leave the imbalance it would cause out of this. Let's just assume that removing such a mechanics which takes some planning from you makes for a better game. Surely for the same reason scans would have to go away? How about reactors and tech labs? when a terran sees a colossus, he can just canibalize a reactor from his baracks and get that starport that was for a banshee rush to make reactored vikings, how about larvae? If a zerg suddenly needs hydras because void rays are coming, he can on a lot of maps just make one cycle only hydras. How about creep vision? How about the fact that you only need a lair to get detection as zerg basically at almost any place in your base combined with the fact that no unit you will need it against can shoot upwards and kill the overseer cocoon while a building turret, cannon, or producing robo can be killed by banshees or dt's.
Basically, the extension of your argument is 'remove racial advantages', or 'make it all one race' basically.
Yes, warp ins remove some planning for protoss, this is a racial advantage that a lot of people use and actually plan around to optimally use that they can decide what to warp in at the last second. Since protoss is balanced around this powerful mechanic, protoss players must plan where they have pylon power. Whenever I build an expo I throw down 2 pylons around it and often an extra hidden pylon which is just out of sight of the nexus, this is planning so that I can warp in units when they attack and they can't just snipe all my pylons before they warp in. The same with larvae, zerg is balanced around this powerful mechanic and plan to save larvae and money. The same with scans and add-ons, a good Terran with an idle production facility and some money floating will let it build an add-on that can come to later use. So it does add decisions and planning all these extra mechanics, you have to plan how to best use your advantage where you have to plan less, if that makes any sense.
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PvT and PvZ is simply going to become a mass stalker sentry game and hope that the colossus or HT you have, that will die within matter of seconds of the battle starting, do enough damage that the stalkers can win. If concussion didn't slow down Archons, that would be greeaaaat. Oh by the way, does nobody care that stalkers upgrades are still the most underpowered upgrade in the game? Let's see. Tier 3 Marauder 26 damage. Tier 3 Roaches 22 Damage. Tier 3 Stalkers 17 Damage. Regardless of the nerfs, we are the superior players. We will prevail. Carrier builds anyone?
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On March 25 2011 02:30 Attero wrote:
PvT and PvZ is simply going to become a mass stalker sentry game and hope that the colossus or HT you have, that will die within matter of seconds of the battle starting, do enough damage that the stalkers can win. If concussion didn't slow down Archons, that would be greeaaaat. Oh by the way, does nobody care that stalkers upgrades are still the most underpowered upgrade in the game? Let's see. Tier 3 Marauder 26 damage. Tier 3 Roaches 22 Damage. Tier 3 Stalkers 17 Damage. Regardless of the nerfs, we are the superior players. We will prevail. Carrier builds anyone? Stalker +1 actually used to add 1(+1 armoured) in beta but they changed it as it was too powerful.
Comparisons like this often go no-where, you've got to empirically look at the races as a whole. It was found that stalkers performed too well late game I guess.
Reason could be that stalkers also shoot air, and air armour upgrades tend to be significantly behind ground armour upgrades in most matches.
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On March 25 2011 02:13 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 19:08 TossNub wrote:
I think a lot of the people here are looking at this the wrong way. I don't think blizzard is setting this game up for the competitive players. As discussed in the SOTG, blizzard is just trying to make the game for the masses, the lower level casual players. At the lower/casual level play people just don't doge storms. They sit under the storm and continue to fight. This is where the KA becomes "imbalanced" imagine two players with 30 APM going at eachother. The protoss player with HT will most likely storm his enemy, and if he wins the battle he will most likely just continue to attack, and hope to win the game. But the problem arises if he thinks the terran will win the battle. He will quickly reinforce HTs with KA from his massive bank he probably has, and at least manage to hold it off. That's where it becomes OPed. Blizzard, as we've seen since the release, sort of decided that they just wanna make the money. Best way to make money for blizzard really, is to make the game the most appealing to the largest number of people. That is not necessarily in line with trying to make the game most balanced at the highest level.
That's why I don't think the marauders/concussive shell will ever be nerfed. Unless "most people" who play starcraft becomes good enough to kite, it's not really an overpowering ability. I'm sure blizzard makes SOME efforts to try to make the game better for the competitive players (such as the charge lot "buff") but that's not their first priority it seems. They want to make the game better for the competitive players within the bounds of the game being "balanced" for the everyday user who plays 5 hours a week. So the only real way to force blizzard to care more about the competitive players is to make everyone who played SC2 at least competent at the game. Anything short of that, blizzard will continue to roll out patches with the bronze/sliver/gold players in mind. this is not a shot against lower level players, but more of a shot at blizzard if anything i suppose.
I will be keeping my 2cent on how i feel the game should've been balanced because I feel like me posting my opinion about that on here will most likely make no difference whatsoever. (Yayy I'm 2 cents richer than everyone else that posted on here :-p)
I just want this mindless flaming to stop and realize Blizzard is only going to continue doing what makes them the most money, not what makes E-Sports better... Blizzard the big bad monster! It's a conspiracy to keep their money-cogs turning. Who cares about competitive Starcraft, right? Come on ... *bahs like a sheep*User was warned for this post
This doesn't mean you can't get verbally medieval on someone's ass every once in a while. We don't run the place like a monastery. But, flames are generally discouraged and we expect people to have a damn good reason for resorting to harsh language in the forums. This means gratuitous swearing is a no-no. Generic trolling will get you banned. If you must flame, be smart or creative about it, and make sure the flame was warranted to begin with. Generally, you'll never go wrong by being nice, polite and mature. All just common sense, people.
If it helps, I felt like that flaming response to such obvious flame-bait was deserving, and the sound effects at the end ... how is that not creative?
Ten Commandment fail on my part T_T
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How are protoss holding up so far?
Not surprisingly I really don't know what to do in the late-game once terran had ghosts.
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if you have the APM for it, keeping your templar in a warp prism is quite useful (you can't EMP templar when they're in a warp prism xD). You just have to be sure not to 1a the warp prism into their bioball as they're kind of fragile.
but yeah it's definitely a harder late game =/
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On March 27 2011 15:10 dump wrote:
How are protoss holding up so far?
Not surprisingly I really don't know what to do in the late-game once terran had ghosts.
Protoss are still going to be fine, which is a bad thing because Blizzard uses their internal stats to gauge whether or not changes should be made. Since Colossi are so strong and Protoss will simply now just mass colossi and nothing else, I doubt winrates of Protoss players will really change much at all.
Personally, I've been doing pretty well recently. Haven't really seen much of a difference except that now I only mass colossi. I don't bother with HTs. Heck, DTs are more common now than HTs.
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I still see HT being used effectively. They bank a few up. What I notice did change though was that late game Toss players have been getting more sentries.
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On March 24 2011 07:29 Mali__Slon wrote:
All this remind me of the siege tank nerf from 50 to 35 vs light. Most of the terrans were saying - shit now a crap ton of chargelots will storm through my tank lines, or even mass zerglins because with one hit i can kill only one zergling or baneling. And then terrans adapted, started spreading siege tnaks, putting them in multiple lines, giving them proper support.
You aren't exactly right here. How often do you really see a lot of ST nowadays(except TvT ofc)? I suppose very very rarely. Because it's more worth efficient to get bioball (MMM). ST are worthless, they need too much time to get to siege-mode and have not so impressive damage as they had until nerf.
The same thing with Reapers, Carriers, BattleCruisers - they all are worthless, almost always.
But excuse me, i digress.
Removing of KA is necessity, not nerf. Protoss always had ace in the sleeve, cuz when enemy was at the base, tos could always make stroke, not even being prepared for it. Not Terran nor Zerg have such ability. Now it's necessity for all three races - To think ahead.
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I can't believe there is a 70-page built around the prima-facie absurd concept of "balancing casters"
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On March 27 2011 18:05 nodule wrote:
I can't believe there is a 70-page built around the prima-facie absurd concept of "balancing casters"
lol.
You get $10.
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On March 27 2011 15:28 Jonas  wrote:if you have the APM for it, keeping your templar in a warp prism is quite useful (you can't EMP templar when they're in a warp prism xD). You just have to be sure not to 1a the warp prism into their bioball as they're kind of fragile. but yeah it's definitely a harder late game =/
Sort of a roll of the dice though -- if the terran is slow with his ghosts and EMPs after you unload your templar, you're screwed.
On March 27 2011 17:09 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 15:10 dump wrote:
How are protoss holding up so far?
Not surprisingly I really don't know what to do in the late-game once terran had ghosts. Protoss are still going to be fine, which is a bad thing because Blizzard uses their internal stats to gauge whether or not changes should be made. Since Colossi are so strong and Protoss will simply now just mass colossi and nothing else, I doubt winrates of Protoss players will really change much at all. Personally, I've been doing pretty well recently. Haven't really seen much of a difference except that now I only mass colossi. I don't bother with HTs. Heck, DTs are more common now than HTs.
Totally agree with this. DTs have been giving me more success, which probably isn't a good thing given that, again like EMP, it's mostly a roll of the dice.
All I can say is that I try not to go into late game against terran anymore. Still can't get enough colossus/stalker to survive the vikings -- but I'm a particularly terrible player, so I don't know if that's an issue or not.
Also, I've said this a hundred times, but I'm really bored of colossus.
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in bw every game terrans gone to siegetanks and they never bored of them.hts are still viable.now we make it before and nothing changed.hts were never powerfull vs terran.i only saw one or three pro match won by amulet or templars.when we see templars in game terran players never engage.they always run away and kite.full time kite.sometimes i find it useless vs good terrans.that is where collos replace.i think that is the reason blizzard designed collo in sc2.
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Storms used on marines without medivacs is super powerful. On the other hand Not really adressing your op, i wonder how you stop mass Banshee now that you can't warp in storm.
Lol? Get anti air? No good player would let his banshees stack.
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So far I think I've only seen the Genius v Qxc game where HTs were used post-patch - I don't think the influence has been as huge, but I do believe it deterred people from going templar to start a little bit more. I guess we'll see when MLG, GSL World comes around this week as well though.
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EPT
