EPTKhaydarin amulet analysis - Page 68
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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. | ||
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Gov
United States121 Posts
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CoSyN
United States122 Posts
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Schism
Australia85 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:24 Azarkon wrote: Balance isn't the same as homogenize. Part of the charm of SC is that the different sides don't have the exact same gameplay mechanics. I don't think a move towards homogenization for the sake of balance is a good idea, as it takes away from the idea of three distinct sides with different play-styles and makes SC 2 a poorer game for it. At the end of the day, balance isn't the most important aspect of a game. Fun is. Without fun, eSports cannot exist as the games wouldn't sell. There are many RTS games on the market. What makes SC special? For me, at least, it isn't the "balance," but the variety. Mirror matches are by definition balanced. Yet how many people enjoy playing a game with all mirrors? Exactly. Anyone who reads these sort of threads on here could only ever come to the conclusion that 95% of the people here want 2 races, exactly the same. Every other post is "oh so it's ok for TERRAN to have <abc ability/strat/tactic> but PROTOSS can't have it?" and vice versa. Can't warp in storm anymore? Well, ya'll wanted more of a BW flavour didn't you? No warp in storms in BW. I mean seriously some of the posts in this and other threads have amounted to "no more KA/warp in storm? Ourageous!!!" and then reminiscing on BW. Where were the warp in storms in BW? people started pumping HT's the second archives was up, and the other HT spells were use useless, which they are not in SC2. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11047 Posts
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Renzin
Australia75 Posts
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dump
Japan514 Posts
On March 23 2011 14:47 Schism wrote: Exactly. Anyone who reads these sort of threads on here could only ever come to the conclusion that 95% of the people here want 2 races, exactly the same. Every other post is "oh so it's ok for TERRAN to have <abc ability/strat/tactic> but PROTOSS can't have it?" and vice versa. Can't warp in storm anymore? Well, ya'll wanted more of a BW flavour didn't you? No warp in storms in BW. I mean seriously some of the posts in this and other threads have amounted to "no more KA/warp in storm? Ourageous!!!" and then reminiscing on BW. Where were the warp in storms in BW? people started pumping HT's the second archives was up, and the other HT spells were use useless, which they are not in SC2. I'd agree if the changes made the game more fun. But it doesn't. We're all tired of colossus death ball, and templar was one of the very few tickets away from it. It still is, but we're obviously going to see a lot more utility in colossus now, especially since EMP is extremely difficult to deal with with templar now that the amulet is gone. I've said 47389747 times that the game should be made fun too, but the way the patches are, it's not. Why would they remove archon toilet? It affected one in every few hundred games, maybe, and when it did happen, the crowds always went wild. Practically every patch since release has focused on changes that make the game slower: armor increases, movement speed decreases, damage decreases, health increase etc. etc. I even tallied them up: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=196393¤tpage=160#3196 No, fun isn't the motivation behind the amulet removal. It's just intended to make the game more measurable using simple metrics like dps and hence simplify balancing. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On March 23 2011 16:57 dump wrote: I'd agree if the changes made the game more fun. But it doesn't. We're all tired of colossus death ball, and templar was one of the very few tickets away from it. It still is, but we're obviously going to see a lot more utility in colossus now, especially since EMP is extremely difficult to deal with with templar now that the amulet is gone. I've said 47389747 times that the game should be made fun too, but the way the patches are, it's not. Why would they remove archon toilet? It affected one in every few hundred games, maybe, and when it did happen, the crowds always went wild. Practically every patch since release has focused on changes that make the game slower: armor increases, movement speed decreases, damage decreases, health increase etc. etc. I even tallied them up: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=196393¤tpage=160#3196 No, fun isn't the motivation behind the amulet removal. It's just intended to make the game more measurable using simple metrics like dps and hence simplify balancing. EMP was nerfed, significantly. Removing KA does not "remove the HT." Using HTs against the nerfed EMP is going to be infinitely easier than it already was before. If the Protoss was fielding HTs in any significant number and you did not hit every single one with EMP before the battle, you could not win the fight. Now, even if you hit every single one, the Protoss is still going to have more than enough storms to either (a) kill you or (b) force a retreat. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On March 23 2011 23:18 TimeSpiral wrote: EMP was nerfed, significantly. No, it was not. Show me one game, where a high templar gets more than 175 energy before a major battle. (meaning: not HTs that sit idle in your third for drop-defense) Then we talk again, ok? (for clarification purposes: only if the HT has more than 175 energy he will be able to cast storm after being EMPed now; if the HT has 174 energy, EMP will still take away 100, and therefore the ability to cast storm) | ||
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On March 23 2011 14:47 Schism wrote: I mean seriously some of the posts in this and other threads have amounted to "no more KA/warp in storm? Ourageous!!!" and then reminiscing on BW. Where were the warp in storms in BW? people started pumping HT's the second archives was up, and the other HT spells were use useless, which they are not in SC2. This is true, but there are so many other differences between the games that you have to take into account that the point becomes, well, pointless. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On March 23 2011 23:23 sleepingdog wrote: No, it was not. Show me one game, where a high templar gets more than 175 energy before a major battle. (meaning: not HTs that sit idle in your third for drop-defense) Then we talk again, ok? (for clarification purposes: only if the HT has more than 175 energy he will be able to cast storm after being EMPed now; if the HT has 174 energy, EMP will still take away 100, and therefore the ability to cast storm) Reducing the max energy drain by 50% is not a significant nerf? Lol. Ok. | ||
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frosecold
Venezuela76 Posts
I dont remember who was that who said the game is taking a path where the fun has no place, and i think he is right, the game is becoming boring, i mean there is no more reactive play (KA was part of a good reactive play), now you have (if you want to use HT) to get your templar archives lot earlier, and your ht lot earlier too in order to be able to use psi storm, but if you do that your main low tier army, and by that i mean zealots stalker sentries will be reduced A LOT, so now when terran just goes marine siege tank timing push, how are you suposed to counter that? Colosus? Inmortal against a HUGE ball of marines? i dont think so, some other people say: Storming the mineral line was so OP, no it wasnt, 8 mutas in your base isnt, 4 blue flame hellions isnt, 2 or 3 DT isnt, what is important here is to point out what should be exactly the purpose of HT? My opinion is that HT are a nuke unit, they can (and should) do the 80 dmg psi storm does, and they should do it fast. Imagine this for a moment you are a protoss, and you want to go HT against a zerg who chooses to make some mutas for harass and scouting purposes, now every single HT can be sniped by mutas before they get enough energy for storm (unless you turtle up like a insane man), so zerg can continuosly snipe your ht, of course you know its 150 gas, and we all know what does mean lose so much gas in mid late game, it means you CAN NOT go higher tech units. To resume, it was wrong to completly remove KA, some other ppl say they should remake that so the HT can be warped with 70 energy (not 75) and i think thats a good idea. Oh and btw, im so sad they removed archon toilet =/ | ||
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Terkill
Denmark38 Posts
Gtfo, protoss, you just got NERFED! (Patch 1.3.0)!!! User was warned for this post | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On March 24 2011 00:02 TimeSpiral wrote: Reducing the max energy drain by 50% is not a significant nerf? Lol. Ok. not against Hightemplars at least not as huge as people make it to be. you know how long it takes for a HT to get 175 Energy? 175-50 = 125 Energy Energy Gain: 0.5625 per second 125/0,5625 = 222,22 s = 3minutes and 42s assuming the retarded logic of the OP both units come out on the field the same time again assuming the HT gets this time to gain energy obviously the Ghost will have 200 Energy (thanks to the Energyupgrade) so it will be able to cast 2 EMPs and still negate Storms completely. (+ the shielddrain on everything else as bonus) (EMPs have no cooldown and can be cast instantly, that why i said EMP needs a Cooldown for it to be considered a nerf against Hightemplar) This obviously makes it absurd to wait for HTs to gain energy at all you gain nothing with it. The Ghost "nerf" is a a nerf against Sentrys cause obviously they are way longer on the field and thus have most likely more than 175 Energy. (earlygame) To make it balanced, EMP would have need to cost 100 Energy. This way it would come to micro, cause Feedback only kills a Ghost if it has >100 Energy. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On March 24 2011 01:55 freetgy wrote: not against Hightemplars at least not as huge as people make it to be. you know how long it takes for a HT to get 175 Energy? 175-50 = 125 Energy Energy Gain: 0.5625 per second 125/0,5625 = 222,22 s = 3minutes and 42s assuming the retarded logic of the OP both units come out on the field the same time again assuming the HT gets this time to gain energy obviously the Ghost will have 200 Energy (thanks to the Energyupgrade) so it will be able to cast 2 EMPs and still negate Storms completely. (+ the shielddrain on everything else as bonus) (EMPs have no cooldown and can be cast instantly, that why i said EMP needs a Cooldown for it to be considered a nerf against Hightemplar) This obviously makes it absurd to wait for HTs to gain energy at all you gain nothing with it. The Ghost "nerf" is a a nerf against Sentrys cause obviously they are way longer on the field and thus have most likely more than 175 Energy. (earlygame) To make it balanced, EMP would have need to cost 100 Energy. This way it would come to micro, cause Feedback only kills a Ghost if it has >100 Energy. Freetgy, I know you're a super hard-core Protoss fanboy, and by virtue of your posting, that Protoss is somehow weak atm, but I will humor this data. You're argument is that without the KA, after warping in an HT, if you get EMP'd at the exact moment you hit 175 energy you can still cast Storm. What you are implying is that you don't "have a storm" until 222 game seconds (gs) after ordering the HT because you're assuming the EMP is going to land (on every HT). There is no arguing that. You are correct in that scenario, because you crafted a scenario that proves your point. What is your point? Anyone can do that for any argument. What you left out is that you're only waiting 44.4 gs before storm is ready. But, more realistically, because no one thinks in game seconds, you have to wait 30 real life seconds. Not bad. For the Terran to even have that EMP they have to order a Ghost from a barracks (40 gs) then have to wait for the energy to gather (44.4 gs) then have to be in position to use it. In the best case scenario you order the Ghost and then walk to the point where you want to EMP while your energy is gathering, but this is a timing attack and not the typical usage. Typically the walking distance is added also. So, that's 84.4 gs to use an EMP (or about one minute IRL). So, we're comparing the HT's 44.4 gs of wait time to the Ghost's 84.4 gs of wait time? Okay. Now let's assume the Ghost is armed with a Mobious Reactor. Now he pops out of the barracks with EMP armed. So, for a defensive EMP the Terran is waiting 40 gs. The Protoss has to wait 44.4+5 gs to cast a defensive Storm. You realize you're comparing the difference between 9 game seconds, or roughly 6 seconds IRL? Sorry, that is just kinda funny. The KA removal put that caster on similar grounds with the other casters, but still significantly faster than a Hunter Seeker, or Neural Parasite. I've read many of your posts and you're always assuming perfect gameplay which is just not the case. Seriously. Everyone always attacks in the perfect window of opportunity. All engagements occur with precision reflexes at the very extremes of ability ranges. I mean, you're comparing the dynamic range of feedback to the outer radius of EMP? Do you realize how big of a waste it is to EMP one HT? lolol. If there is one, or maybe a few Ghosts forward scouting a Terran army, preparing a preemptive EMP, maybe use a different unit to assassinate the Ghost besides the HT (the Ghost's target)? But hey. I'm not going to tell you, or anyone else how to do it. When I play Protoss I hate fighting against Ghosts, but hey, when I play as Terran I hate fighting against HTs. *shrugs* You really do skew the argument in such as way that makes it almost useless though. | ||
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Rob28
Canada705 Posts
On March 24 2011 02:53 TimeSpiral wrote: Do you realize how big of a waste it is to EMP one HT? lolol. I laughed when I read this. You don't "waste" an EMP used on a templar... what you are actually doing is "wasting" your opponent's HT build cost, at no min/gas expense to yourself. "lolol" | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
first round of HT i spawned, i was saving energy but a push came so i just made it into archons. it felt weird having HT spawn and not do anything with it till later. i think many will agree, i have a habit of not making any HT until storm and KA is done upgrading. sometimes i'll make HT to time with storm upgrade when i really need it. it feels weird :/ but i guess i'll get used to it. | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On March 24 2011 00:02 TimeSpiral wrote: Reducing the max energy drain by 50% is not a significant nerf? Lol. Ok. No, it's not actually a significant nerf because of what sleepingdog precisely explained. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On March 24 2011 02:53 TimeSpiral wrote: Freetgy, I know you're a super hard-core Protoss fanboy, and by virtue of your posting, that Protoss is somehow weak atm, but I will humor this data. You're argument is that without the KA, after warping in an HT, if you get EMP'd at the exact moment you hit 175 energy you can still cast Storm. What you are implying is that you don't "have a storm" until 222 game seconds (gs) after ordering the HT because you're assuming the EMP is going to land (on every HT). There is no arguing that. You are correct in that scenario, because you crafted a scenario that proves your point. What is your point? Anyone can do that for any argument. What you left out is that you're only waiting 44.4 gs before storm is ready. But, more realistically, because no one thinks in game seconds, you have to wait 30 real life seconds. Not bad. For the Terran to even have that EMP they have to order a Ghost from a barracks (40 gs) then have to wait for the energy to gather (44.4 gs) then have to be in position to use it. In the best case scenario you order the Ghost and then walk to the point where you want to EMP while your energy is gathering, but this is a timing attack and not the typical usage. Typically the walking distance is added also. So, that's 84.4 gs to use an EMP (or about one minute IRL). So, we're comparing the HT's 44.4 gs of wait time to the Ghost's 84.4 gs of wait time? Okay. Now let's assume the Ghost is armed with a Mobious Reactor. Now he pops out of the barracks with EMP armed. So, for a defensive EMP the Terran is waiting 40 gs. The Protoss has to wait 44.4+5 gs to cast a defensive Storm. You realize you're comparing the difference between 9 game seconds, or roughly 6 seconds IRL? Sorry, that is just kinda funny. The KA removal put that caster on similar grounds with the other casters, but still significantly faster than a Hunter Seeker, or Neural Parasite. I've read many of your posts and you're always assuming perfect gameplay which is just not the case. Seriously. Everyone always attacks in the perfect window of opportunity. All engagements occur with precision reflexes at the very extremes of ability ranges. I mean, you're comparing the dynamic range of feedback to the outer radius of EMP? Do you realize how big of a waste it is to EMP one HT? lolol. If there is one, or maybe a few Ghosts forward scouting a Terran army, preparing a preemptive EMP, maybe use a different unit to assassinate the Ghost besides the HT (the Ghost's target)? But hey. I'm not going to tell you, or anyone else how to do it. When I play Protoss I hate fighting against Ghosts, but hey, when I play as Terran I hate fighting against HTs. *shrugs* You really do skew the argument in such as way that makes it almost useless though. i am not saying protoss is weak, we (Protoss Players) will play around the HT nerf obviously and it is possible, possible and very 1 dimensional. No one with game sense is gonna play HT before ultra lategame. (in pvt) there is no point when we have better safer alternatives. Terran will always be able to play ghost cause it is an awesome unit. This change obviously isn't as much of a problem for PvZ as it is for PvT. Still taking away tactical options will hurt the game in the long run. | ||
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RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
On March 24 2011 00:02 TimeSpiral wrote: Reducing the max energy drain by 50% is not a significant nerf? Lol. Ok. He's right because there are no serious games where HT have more than probably 125 energy except for the base defense HT. Sniping HT archives is so stupid good now. You can't build any HT during the time it takes to rebuild, so you can't save up energy to cast storm, so if you were expecting to rely on HT instead of Colossus then you just lost. | ||
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Dakkon B
United States60 Posts
(Note I didn't have time to read all 68 pages so sorry if these points were brought up already I just wanted to give another point of view hopefully) I do not agree with the KA removal. While yes stat wise the times for each unit to be able to cast their spell from creation is now a lot closer, the thing I feel was not covered in those numbers was the time and resources it takes to Tech to each of those units. While HT are a T4 unit Pylon -> Gateway -> Cybernetics Core -> Twilight Council -> Templar Archives = 750m 300g 225s An addition 200m200g110s for Storm 75s if you Chrono Boosted it and another 50m50g for Warp Gate Upgrade. No time for WG cause you will be getting it while warping in TC and TA so it doesn't add any more time. So JUST to get HT w/ Storm no Warp in effect. = 950m 500g 300s Infesters are T2.5 ? Spawning Pool -> Lair -> Infestation Pit = 450m 200g 195s. Wasn't sure if I should include the drones cause you start with 6 so it technically doesn't cost you anything if you JUST went for these buildings BUT realistically I have to SOOO.. +2 drones = 550m 200g 195s Lastly Ghosts are a T2 Supply Depo -> Barracks -> Tech Lab + Ghost Academy = 500m150g150s Didn't not add the Tech Lab build time cause again you would be making it while the GA was building so it doe not add any time. So Total number lined up are as follows HT w/ Storm = 950m 500g 300s (w/ Chrono) Infestor w/ Fungal = 550m 200g 195s Ghost w/ EMP = 500m 150g 150s SO based on those numbers HT require the biggest investment both in resources and time. Yet vs Fungal and EMP have more bang for their buck effect.. Both require no upgrades to get and are instantaneous on their effects vs storm which requires an upgrade and the damage from storm can be mitigated upwards of 2/3 of it depending on control/stim/creep ect ect. Point I'm trying to make is HT are already much harder to tech to than the other races casters. Why did they feel the need to remove an upgrade that gave HT a little more versatility in a defensive warp in role. I mean 1 storm was never enough to drive off a drop you always had to use 2 or more so thats min 100m 300g just to defend a drop that you might not kill if the aggressor is on top of his game and ran away after doing minor damage. I don't understand Blizzards logic forcing Toss to play with less and less options. | ||
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