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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
[QUOTE]On March 23 2011 09:34 Goldfish wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 17 2011 13:36 CentsOfFate wrote:
If they don't decide to readd it in a future patch, they may add it back in HotS. Dustin Browder said they'll "unnerf" the Reaper in HotS and probably other stuff too if that's the case.[/QUOTE]
lol, I love when game companies make you pay for patches. Starting to remind me of Relic. In any case, I don't know if its too early to call HT useless. I feel that it definitely keeps PvZ in check, but TvZ was always a game that ended in Colossus balls. HT's were just finishers.
Maybe a slight move-speed buff to increase life-sustaining ability? I don't wanna jump to conclusions yet though, but I would understand a slight move speed buff to compensate.
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Let's give it more than a few hours before we rapidly jump to conclusions.
There have been plenty of "groundbreaking" patches that people claimed would ruin whatever race affected it the most. Roach pop increase, Tank nerf, etc.
But it turns out it wasn't that big of a deal. Remember when Protoss users claimed no one would ever use the Void Ray after its range was nerfed? Yeah, that totally happened.
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good night sweet prince
Khaydarin amulet
March 22 2011
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What about the fact that ghosts and infestors and get to their destination while cloaked/burrowed and not get targeted w/o vision, but HTs as slow as they are, can't(Ghosts 2.25, infest 2.5; 2.0 burrowed, HT 1.875. Also considering the other spells ghost and infestors have and that ghosts have an autoattack which can deal with units w/o energy when being pitted against them.
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On March 23 2011 10:01 tetranoir wrote:
What about the fact that ghosts and infestors and get to their destination while cloaked/burrowed and not get targeted w/o vision, but HTs as slow as they are, can't(Ghosts 2.25, infest 2.5; 2.0 burrowed, HT 1.875. Also considering the other spells ghost and infestors have and that ghosts have an autoattack which can deal with units w/o energy when being pitted against them.
1. Warping in AT the destination is better than taking 50 seconds to produce, and then walking there.
2. Other spells? High Templar have feedback, and can morph into Archons. What can Infesters do when they run out of energy?
Please play the patch for more than an hour before claiming the High Templar is worthless.
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On March 23 2011 10:08 Grimjim wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 10:01 tetranoir wrote:
What about the fact that ghosts and infestors and get to their destination while cloaked/burrowed and not get targeted w/o vision, but HTs as slow as they are, can't(Ghosts 2.25, infest 2.5; 2.0 burrowed, HT 1.875. Also considering the other spells ghost and infestors have and that ghosts have an autoattack which can deal with units w/o energy when being pitted against them. 1. Warping in AT the destination is better than taking 50 seconds to produce, and then walking there. 2. Other spells? High Templar have feedback, and can morph into Archons. What can Infesters do when they run out of energy? Please play the patch for more than an hour before claiming the High Templar is worthless.
What he means is that you "can" warp in the unit at the destination, but it then must be worthless for about 45 seconds while you wait for it to be useful. If the destination is a battlefield, you can see how unfortunate that would be.
The closest analogy is if you drop a MULE to repair your Thor out in the battlefield, but it isn't allowed to repair for 45 seconds. It could still mine, just not allowed to repair.
I think there is potential for it to still have some use, but it seems a weird change when Colossi are what everyone hates (including us Protoss).
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i think the new zealot charge upgrade must be really strong for them to take away KA..
also, it seemed even with KA and warping in storms Protoss still had trouble with marauder+medivac!
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On March 23 2011 10:21 Aequos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 10:08 Grimjim wrote:On March 23 2011 10:01 tetranoir wrote:
What about the fact that ghosts and infestors and get to their destination while cloaked/burrowed and not get targeted w/o vision, but HTs as slow as they are, can't(Ghosts 2.25, infest 2.5; 2.0 burrowed, HT 1.875. Also considering the other spells ghost and infestors have and that ghosts have an autoattack which can deal with units w/o energy when being pitted against them. 1. Warping in AT the destination is better than taking 50 seconds to produce, and then walking there. 2. Other spells? High Templar have feedback, and can morph into Archons. What can Infesters do when they run out of energy? Please play the patch for more than an hour before claiming the High Templar is worthless. What he means is that you "can" warp in the unit at the destination, but it then must be worthless for about 45 seconds while you wait for it to be useful. If the destination is a battlefield, you can see how unfortunate that would be. The closest analogy is if you drop a MULE to repair your Thor out in the battlefield, but it isn't allowed to repair for 45 seconds. It could still mine, just not allowed to repair..
...except a MULE is temporary and does something a few SCVS can already do.
I'm sorry, I just don't see how you can claim the High Templar is worthless just because you have to have more foresight when using it now. I urge you to play for more than a few hours before you jump to conclusions.
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ok im a low level toss. of course i dont like the change, but one was necessary, but this isn't good for the overall balance at all. terran and zerg can almost blindly go vikings/corruptors. guess ill be going warp stalker and smaller amounts of coll. with some stargates mixed in.
I think an amulet giving 15 energy, or faster HT, or larger AoE, or stalker buff vs. air units, or little mini lasers for coll. to shoot at annoying vikings needs to be in next patch.(lol).
nah i think HTs being faster or archons being faster/stronger will make this ok.
or maybe storm tech should be cheaper.
edit
Actually hell making them stronger would be awesome. or making archons faster/more range. I think now toss needs to always warp in the HTs in pairs if you need to attack/defend while they are building energy, morph. I think if this nerf is accompanied by some other kind of buff the HT will be better for it. If they leave it as it might be another worthless unit.
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we'll see if hts are worthless if no one uses it in the gsl 
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On March 23 2011 10:41 Grimjim wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 10:21 Aequos wrote:On March 23 2011 10:08 Grimjim wrote:On March 23 2011 10:01 tetranoir wrote:
What about the fact that ghosts and infestors and get to their destination while cloaked/burrowed and not get targeted w/o vision, but HTs as slow as they are, can't(Ghosts 2.25, infest 2.5; 2.0 burrowed, HT 1.875. Also considering the other spells ghost and infestors have and that ghosts have an autoattack which can deal with units w/o energy when being pitted against them. 1. Warping in AT the destination is better than taking 50 seconds to produce, and then walking there. 2. Other spells? High Templar have feedback, and can morph into Archons. What can Infesters do when they run out of energy? Please play the patch for more than an hour before claiming the High Templar is worthless. What he means is that you "can" warp in the unit at the destination, but it then must be worthless for about 45 seconds while you wait for it to be useful. If the destination is a battlefield, you can see how unfortunate that would be. The closest analogy is if you drop a MULE to repair your Thor out in the battlefield, but it isn't allowed to repair for 45 seconds. It could still mine, just not allowed to repair.. ...except a MULE is temporary and does something a few SCVS can already do. I'm sorry, I just don't see how you can claim the High Templar is worthless just because you have to have more foresight when using it now. I urge you to play for more than a few hours before you jump to conclusions.
"...except a High Templar is unlikely to see more than one-use and does something a few Colossi can already do."
I used the MULE example as it was the closest analogy from another race. Why would you summon down a MULE that can't repair for 45 seconds when you can pull 4 SCVs and get a better result for less work?
Likewise, why not just build Colossi/Phoenix instead of trying to use a micro-heavy unit that has severe issues dealing damage instantly.
Finally, please don't cut out the part of my post where I agree with you (that there are uses for a High Templar now) and then claim I didn't agree with you.
Edit: Changed the wording on the initial statement
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When making BW comparisons, bear in mind that in most situations units were much less densely packed in BW due to pathing and no forcefields. BW Mutas are the significant exception but I rarely see mutas in SC2 defended by defensive warpin HTs.
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On March 23 2011 11:13 Aequos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 10:41 Grimjim wrote:On March 23 2011 10:21 Aequos wrote:On March 23 2011 10:08 Grimjim wrote:On March 23 2011 10:01 tetranoir wrote:
What about the fact that ghosts and infestors and get to their destination while cloaked/burrowed and not get targeted w/o vision, but HTs as slow as they are, can't(Ghosts 2.25, infest 2.5; 2.0 burrowed, HT 1.875. Also considering the other spells ghost and infestors have and that ghosts have an autoattack which can deal with units w/o energy when being pitted against them. 1. Warping in AT the destination is better than taking 50 seconds to produce, and then walking there. 2. Other spells? High Templar have feedback, and can morph into Archons. What can Infesters do when they run out of energy? Please play the patch for more than an hour before claiming the High Templar is worthless. What he means is that you "can" warp in the unit at the destination, but it then must be worthless for about 45 seconds while you wait for it to be useful. If the destination is a battlefield, you can see how unfortunate that would be. The closest analogy is if you drop a MULE to repair your Thor out in the battlefield, but it isn't allowed to repair for 45 seconds. It could still mine, just not allowed to repair.. ...except a MULE is temporary and does something a few SCVS can already do. I'm sorry, I just don't see how you can claim the High Templar is worthless just because you have to have more foresight when using it now. I urge you to play for more than a few hours before you jump to conclusions. "...except a High Templar is unlikely to see more than one-use and does something a few Colossi can already do." I used the MULE example as it was the closest analogy from another race. Why would you summon down a MULE that can't repair for 45 seconds when you can pull 4 SCVs and get a better result for less work? Likewise, why not just build Colossi/Phoenix instead of trying to use a micro-heavy unit that has severe issues dealing damage instantly. Finally, please don't cut out the part of my post where I agree with you (that there are uses for a High Templar now) and then claim I didn't agree with you. Edit: Changed the wording on the initial statement
I lol´d
I guess Protoss just have to addapt to have the HTs there? I mean, Zerg wont stop a push with Infestors the moment they pop up, if they are needed they need the energy otherwise they are worthless, and HT do way more than a few Colossi can do, mostly, instant damage, where colossi don´t really pose that of a treath at equal cost.
I like the change, I guess progamers just have to teach QQrs how you should be playing now.
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On March 23 2011 11:17 Harrow wrote:
When making BW comparisons, bear in mind that in most situations units were much less densely packed in BW due to pathing and no forcefields. BW Mutas are the significant exception but I rarely see mutas in SC2 defended by defensive warpin HTs.
That's thanks to the evolution of the 6gate. Before you'd need to build up a blink stalker ball off of 2 bases and even then you would have serious issues. Because stalkers are pretty crap and eventually the mutaball would anhilate stalkers. You relied on Templar splash to soften and kill off a great deal of that muta splash until you decided to make your doom push out.
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Canada13389 Posts
On March 23 2011 11:26 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2011 11:17 Harrow wrote:
When making BW comparisons, bear in mind that in most situations units were much less densely packed in BW due to pathing and no forcefields. BW Mutas are the significant exception but I rarely see mutas in SC2 defended by defensive warpin HTs. That's thanks to the evolution of the 6gate. Before you'd need to build up a blink stalker ball off of 2 bases and even then you would have serious issues. Because stalkers are pretty crap and eventually the mutaball would anhilate stalkers. You relied on Templar splash to soften and kill off a great deal of that muta splash until you decided to make your doom push out.
I can see templar used in conjunction with cannons to try and hold an expo with storm until your army can make it there maybe? though marauders chew through the cannons so fast this may not be very viable :/ its not like they are melee zerglings from bw after all
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Er in either matchup cannons aren't the end all defense. Depends on the magnitude of the drop ofc as well. After a certain size muta balls become nightmarish to deal with using stalker/ cannon. They melt through cannons far more quickly than a reaction force can get back there ( and the reaction force may have mixxed success) what they do do is buy time to run probes. Not really protect much.
Once again against marauder marines they buy some limited time. Typically a round of warp in will not kill off a medivac supported drop especially with good positioning. DpS just isn't enough to crack it. Cannons do force drops farther away and once again buy a little more time. Ofc at a certain size drop things just get very very painful and you'll have to move some splash or a good chunk of your immobile main force back. Imo it makes terran drops significantly safer for terrans especially in teh late game. Much less punishing on the multi task without storm splash to punish. v Zerg...Well the phoenix can be chronoed otu to deal with mutas now. Still have 6 gate timing pushes and such... balls with templar collosus using templar to knock out masssed up air will be a bit less effective. Huk's immortal templar ff ball is dead i think ofc, it is huk we're talking about so that could be coompletely off the money as he and Mc make magic happen.
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so with removing amulet, theyre removing + energy medivac upgrade too right?
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On March 23 2011 13:02 burster wrote:
so with removing amulet, theyre removing + energy medivac upgrade too right?
pretty sure no one uses it any way. never know though that medivac upgrade could be uber OP
EDIT: 1337 post omfg win!
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I'm sorry if this repeats what was already said by another, but I simply don't feel like reading through 67 pages. I think that all the complicated discussion (in the OP and plenty elsewhere) around the timing advantages of the HT and various T and Z alternatives is simply ignoring a crucial point.
1. First of all, for the most part the chargelot/stalker/sentry/collossi ball vs. mmm/ghost/tank/viking ball is a balanced fight. A lot depends on colossi/tank/viking placement and stim micro/FF, but the number of people who claimed one is overpowered over the other in this thread is astounding, meaning a parity is actually the most likely option when equally skilled players meet.
2. One of the most pronounced differences is the fact that the Protoss ball, as others have said, is much slower by nature and therefore warp gate is needed to give the protoss some sort of quick response that does not involve dragging his colossi and sentries everywhere you need to kill something. Compared to stim and medivacs/hellions the only thing slowing down the T is tanks, and those are actually most valuable when stationary, meaning a comparison of them to colossi is simply ignoring my point.
3. This means that P armies, by the nature of the composition necessary to defeat MMM, is exceptionally slow. This is not only a handicap when microing or countering to an opponent's base, but it actually gives the P almost no resources to build a decent map control technique. drops, hellions and stim are are incredibly affordable, quick and efficient ways to gain map control,
something the P sacrifices when going Colossi rather than HT.
^^This above statement does not mean to claim that HT move quickly. It does mean that with the amulet they would no doubt be warped in and therefore their speed is really negligible in conversations of map control.
3. several people have mentioned phoenixes, or the stargate in general, as providing fast harassment that could give the Protoss some measure of map control, or phase prisim drops. Both of these require a much larger investment in resources and time than blue flame hellions, or the medivacs which are already a part of T's build anyway.
4. If P's were to start going phoenix (as some do in PvZ) to harass and deny drops, countering the T's mobility with mobility, the gas and resources spent on those (750/500 assuming five built, plus 150/150 for stargate) versus the 0/0 it would take a T to m/m drop is significant enough to ensure that his gateway/colossi ball will fall to any T who spent all his money on a MMM ball.
5. Phase prism drops become much less scary when HT does not have the amulet upgrade. Two immortals is the standard drop due to their amazing damage versus armor and relative durability, but also because its all robo tech. However, I have never heard of an immortal drop deciding a game, and I don't think we will anytime soon because of the relative ineffectiveness of the process. Blue flame hellions and mmm drops kill worker much more effectively, and can be used earlier, making the losses more significant (say killing 8/30 workers instead of 8/70). The only way any phase prism drop influences the course of a game played by equals is if it is supported by warp-ins. And with this patch, the only high-tier unit that can be warped in is now useless in every drop situation where it is not the cargo, meaning now P has to choose between killing units with the HT and buildings with the Immortal.
sorry for being so verbose, but this is the actual point
Protoss were given warp, the stargate, observers and warp prisms for map control. None of this tech is completely able to defend against a MMM ball, with or without ghost/tank support. And if any significant amount of it is built, it is expensive enough to make the now-inferior P gateway/colossi armies, the solution to MMM, fall to simple barracks units. The one option already available to the colossi builder is the warp prism/immortal play, but the effectiveness of that in a mid- to late game strategy is severely weakened by removing the amulet (pronounced HT) from the situation.
and I've been ignoring the defensive end of things as well:
With this lack of real options (blink stalkers being the most viable possibility in my mind), most P players came to rely on the gateway to warp in responses to drops, reaper attacks, banshees, etc. Without a storm ready, HT are extremely expensive target practice to terran units and only useful after sitting in your base to buy the telpar archives, research storm, and then have two 50/150 workers sit in the back of every one of your bases just so you can hope to fend off the drop that might never come is simply infuriating.
so, assuming three bases (cause you had time to get storm and then sit around) it's 300/900 for the HT, 150/200 for the archives and 200/200 for storm == 650/1300 !!!
so good, our P is finally protected from drops and harass. Good luck killing an MMM ball without those two colossi you could/should have built. and that's ignoring the massive 900 gas i didn't even bother with discussing. That could also be 13 sentries you wouldn't have, to think of it differently. With those odds, its no longer an even fight, and the discussion of map control becomes pointless.
thoughts??
edit: cannons. I know they can stop a drop. I'm assuming the person who will warp in units to stop a drop doesn't have enough cannons there to deal with the problem for him. and if you have three cannons behind every mineral line, again you will have less colossi/zealot/whatever. so you lose anyway.
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1) All the changes make marines more powerful overall (I don't know why they need it, they are the most cost effective unit in the game). The fungal growth thing is a pseudo-buff to the marine, and a pseudo-nerf to marauders. Solution... aww more marines all around. But wait, we'll make bunkers take longer to build so everything will be fine.
2) Obviously collosus will be the toss unit of choice after the HT nerf. Solution: make Battle Cruisers faster?
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EPT
