EPTThe reason why HT are good is that in a real macro game, Zerg and Terran always end up killing your colossi and if at that time you don't have HT with this upgrade, you will be rolled over since gateway units alone are total garbage and that colossi take forever to build.
Khaydarin amulet analysis - Page 65
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. | ||
|
TeWy
France714 Posts
The reason why HT are good is that in a real macro game, Zerg and Terran always end up killing your colossi and if at that time you don't have HT with this upgrade, you will be rolled over since gateway units alone are total garbage and that colossi take forever to build. | ||
|
Archon96
United States38 Posts
| ||
|
Archon96
United States38 Posts
| ||
|
turdburgler
England6749 Posts
On March 17 2011 01:23 Archon96 wrote: Also keep in mind the whole point of protoss is to have the STRONGER units, that's the point, not equal units that you're arguing for. Otherwise reduce the cost of all protoss units to be equal, I like how you address power and time but not research and unit costs. ok, on that logic you can keep the amulet but ghosts now cost 75/75 and infesters are free | ||
|
Zedex
United Kingdom310 Posts
| ||
|
Jandos
Czech Republic928 Posts
| ||
|
TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On March 17 2011 01:55 Jandos wrote: At least make archon not affected by Concussive Shells so they wont be useless against bio-ball. Don't they have 360 EHP? I'd hardly call that useless considering they may have already cast multiple Psi-Storms or did their invisible ninja sniping. That's a heck of a deal for 100/300 or 250/250, or whatever, if you ask me : / But yes, it is possible for one unit in the game to cast slow on them, and out micro them. | ||
|
tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On March 17 2011 05:22 TimeSpiral wrote: Don't they have 360 EHP? I'd hardly call that useless considering they may have already cast multiple Psi-Storms or did their invisible ninja sniping. That's a heck of a deal for 100/300 or 250/250, or whatever, if you ask me : / But yes, it is possible for one unit in the game to cast slow on them, and out micro them. You don't play protoss, that is clear. Now without the amulet they might not have cast storm at all, before being transformed into a giant ball of worthlessness. The archon is not a tier 3 unit, and it's not a deal to have that unit at all since you can't morph back to ht or dt :D Make archons massive then we're talking @Zedex Roaches with burrow are actually a super hard counter to HT, in fact, you can just go 200/200 roaches with tunneling claws against any amount of HT/gateway. Even HT/Immortal cannot defeat that alone and needs either VRs or good sentry/colossi use to counter, but then again, how many minutes do we need to buy to get colossi tech with enough sentries plus 5-8 colossi to counter those mass 75/25 roaches? If you go pure hydra and have them sit in the psi storm while the zealots are chopping at them, yeah, it's hard to win | ||
|
TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On March 17 2011 05:40 tehemperorer wrote: You don't play protoss, that is clear. Now without the amulet they might not have cast storm at all, before being transformed into a giant ball of worthlessness. The archon is not a tier 3 unit, and it's not a deal to have that unit at all since you can't morph back to ht or dt :D Make archons massive then we're talking @Zedex Roaches with burrow are actually a super hard counter to HT, in fact, you can just go 200/200 roaches with tunneling claws against any amount of HT/gateway. Even HT/Immortal cannot defeat that alone and needs either VRs or good sentry/colossi use to counter, but then again, how many minutes do we need to buy to get colossi tech with enough sentries plus 5-8 colossi to counter those mass 75/25 roaches? If you go pure hydra and have them sit in the psi storm while the zealots are chopping at them, yeah, it's hard to win Actually I do play Protoss, just not as my main, so obviously I'm not nearly as experienced with them. I might build a raven, and it might killed instantly doing no damage, or having no outcome on the game. You can say that about any unit. The fact that "this unit could be killed" is not really an argument to say that it is useless. Come on now :D If you want Archons to be impervious to C-Shells, then I want Sieged Tanks and Queens to be impervious to graviton beam. | ||
|
tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On March 17 2011 06:08 TimeSpiral wrote: Actually I do play Protoss, just not as my main, so obviously I'm not nearly as experienced with them. I might build a raven, and it might killed instantly doing no damage, or having no outcome on the game. You can say that about any unit. The fact that "this unit could be killed" is not really an argument to say that it is useless. Come on now :D If you want Archons to be impervious to C-Shells, then I want Sieged Tanks and Queens to be impervious to graviton beam. Nah the raven comparison shouldn't be made because you don't morph the raven into something else that serves a completely different role in your army and that the procedure for which is completely irreversible. The argument for making archons more useful is much more solid and pressing than it is for making siege tanks and queens even harder to counter (impervious to graviton beam), so that comparison shouldn't be made. My post this time was about clearing up the misconception that archons are useful in an army composition that stems from gateway/HT or HT/Immortal. They actually have no place, because zealots serve as a better meat shield, being cheaper, more massable, and having charge to mitigate some effects of kiting, and since archons constantly get caught in natural pathing traps they, over time, have a very low dps average from battle to battle compared to how much damage they can actually do in the unit tester. The argument that seems to sound like "don't worry, you don't need KA because you can morph to an archon" is insanely retarded and, though it sounds good in a TL post, isn't really practical in-game. | ||
|
HoBb3
Sweden38 Posts
I'm only gold but when im facing toss and there going ht my roach hydra army gets raped by storms from 4 ht. I tried to snipe em with a few mutas but theres to many stalkers and i need hydras to deal with the stalkers. Its easy for pros to counter and avoid the storms but not for all those noobs like me. | ||
|
Sek-Kuar
Czech Republic593 Posts
Today we broke up with my gf after 2+ years  So you can keep KA with +25 energy and no skill solving everything warp-in, I dont really care | ||
|
tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On March 17 2011 06:41 Sek-Kuar wrote: This thread was dead like 5 times already, but whatever I dont care anymore... Today we broke up with my gf after 2+ years So you can keep KA with +25 energy and no skill solving everything warp-in, I dont really care I will keep it thanks, if Blizzard lets me. It takes skill to prepare for a PvZ or PvT, it isn't as cliche as the matchup seems. OT: Oh dude that sucks, but it really could be good. Just think that maybe she wasn't right for you, but maybe she is right for someone else. We want everyone to be happy like HuK, so use this time to explore more personal interests, you have a good opportunity here to further develop who you are as a person in a context entirely your own. | ||
|
GiantEnemyCrab
Canada503 Posts
| ||
|
Barca
United States418 Posts
On March 17 2011 06:41 Sek-Kuar wrote: This thread was dead like 5 times already, but whatever I dont care anymore... Today we broke up with my gf after 2+ years So you can keep KA with +25 energy and no skill solving everything warp-in, I dont really care | ||
|
VTPerfect
United States487 Posts
HT Movespeed 1.875 Unit Cost: 50/150 Tech Cost: 150/100 + 200/200 + 200/200 = 550/500 Build time: 55 seconds (warpgates frontloaded) Psi storm range: 6 Feedback range: 9 Armor Type Bio, Light, Psionic Ghost Movespeed 2.25 Unit Cost: 150/150 Tech Cost: 150/50 = 150/50 Build Time: 40 EMP range: 10 Sniper range: 10 Armor type: Bio, Psionic KA removal will make casters balanced... ? stats don't seem to agree with that statement. Just seems like the OP was just jumping on the Terran bandwagon to say something is overpowered just because it benefits his race. | ||
|
TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On March 17 2011 06:56 VTPerfect wrote: The OP is not saying over 70% of the differences in casters HT Movespeed 1.875 Unit Cost: 50/150 Tech Cost: 150/100 + 200/200 + 200/200 = 550/500 Build time: 55 seconds (warpgates frontloaded) Psi storm range: 6 Feedback range: 9 Armor Type Bio, Light, Psionic Ghost Movespeed 2.25 Unit Cost: 150/150 Tech Cost: 150/50 = 150/50 Build Time: 40 EMP range: 10 Sniper range: 10 Armor type: Bio, Psionic KA removal will make casters balanced... ? stats don't seem to agree with that statement. Just seems like the OP was just jumping on the Terran bandwagon to say something is overpowered just because it benefits his race. Come on, Perfect, why skew the stats like that? You're better than that. | ||
|
RoarMan
Canada745 Posts
On March 17 2011 08:34 TimeSpiral wrote: Come on, Perfect, why skew the stats like that? You're better than that. Yea if we wanna play Stats, well the Infestors are armored and it doesn't help anyone. Honestly I do think that removing Amulet will be too big of a nerf. However at this state it seems kind of ridiculous that you are able to warp in Templars for instant Storms, crushing drops and the like instantaneously. A lot of people are saying each race should be played differently, and honestly I see Protoss as a race that should suffer most to losing a unit. With all do respect I'm not saying that Protoss should be game crippling punished for losing units but supply efficiency has to come at a price. | ||
|
Brief.Starcraft
United States35 Posts
Considering their high cost and area in the tech tree, it will, in most situations, just plain be better to build more colossus rather than build these guys at all. The main time I could see someone wanting to use high templar without the option of amulet is when you've caught your opponent on a ton of corruptors / vikings and still want splash, but even then, one emp completely negates all of the effort and resources put into making the things. Considering those things, as others have pointed out numerous times, the stats of the situation, and the other casters for that matter, aren't particularly relevant at this point in time. The issue is that high templar probably won't be used anymore without less time of complete vulnerability and such a slow return on the large amount of resources invested. On March 02 2011 04:09 Sek-Kuar wrote: But there is one thing Im 100% sure about - if we will have similar caster, using similar mechanics and taking similar time to produce, it will be definitely easier to balance game around that... I do want to point this out and ask, "why are you so sure?" You don't really have any evidence to back this statement up. I'll say that practically eliminating a whole option for the Protoss will likely make the game easier to balance, but I don't think evening out the casters really does much in that department considering they all do completely different things. If all the casters had similar abilities, I would agree, but they all fill very different roles, and as such, are most certainly weighed differently from a balance standpoint. Edit: I do want to note that I didn't address if it will balance the game, and I don't know if it will. I do know that colossus heavy play will certainly become more prevalent and high templar will be a much less appetizing option overall. If effectively taking high templar out of the game for anything but specific PvZ situations balances it, so be it, but I haven't tested it and do not know if that will be the result. | ||
|
ePLocust
United States587 Posts
| ||
| ||
