EPTKhaydarin amulet analysis - Page 66
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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. | ||
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CentsOfFate
5 Posts
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genius_man16
United States749 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:16 Darneck wrote: That's how it is now, that's exactly how it's not gonna be when the amulet is removed. No one is gonna know where they will be needing a HT in 50 seconds. You will never warp in your HT where you need it, you will warp it in at your base safely for it to get its energy and then move it. Welcome to the world of terran and zerg, but ofcourse it's 'balanced' when we have to wait 45 seconds for a ghost and you have to wait 5 right? I'm not necessarlily agreeing with the way Blizzard has decided to handle insta-storms (I don't like it, even as a terran), but trying to argue based on how you actually have to wait to use storms is silly. Personally I think they should have changed it so that the amulet gave templar +15 energy and double the energy regen time, and to balance it out every +energy upgrade could have been changed the exact same way. Would have made all casters more used and useful ingames. | ||
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Fwiffo
Canada57 Posts
In addition, Immortals should be moved back to Gateways w/ Twilight Council tech (no Warp-Ins as well). This would give Toss a faster way to respond to mass Marauder & Roach play while increasing the complexity of Toss macro by forcing a mix of both Gateways and Warp Gates. I'd think this is a win, win. No more Warp-In Storms, keep KA, discourage Colossi tech by shifting Immortal tech and give Toss more flexibility to respond to massed enemy armor units. I've proposed this idea in other threads, but I didn't realize there was one discussing KA balance, so this idea may have been suggested here already. | ||
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong747 Posts
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VTPerfect
United States487 Posts
On March 17 2011 08:34 TimeSpiral wrote: Come on, Perfect, why skew the stats like that? You're better than that. How am i skewing stats? I suppose i didnt put in the 50/25 tech lab. The unit time argument pretty much dies when its taken to account terran can build ghosts somewhere inbetween tier 1.5 and tier 2. 150/50 tech structure from the race that has mule? I'm just a little confused to how an OP can talk about balancing caster production time and not compare the soonest possible time for each caster to be produced, the tech costs associated and the power of their abilities as well as unit stats/survivability. Obviously im better than posting like this, but i'll take a hit to my reputation to say that most top players that know the game don't agree with this change and you'de be hard pressed to find a valid argument to justify it. It's just unfortunate blizzard is relying too much on ladder opinion and not pro player feedback. | ||
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Widar
Sweden261 Posts
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Scarmath
United States60 Posts
I'm not married to insta-storms. In fact, I kind of like the idea of having to protect your templar for a little while before they can deliver their payload. As the change stands on the PTR, though, I just don't think HT are going to be worth the effort. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
I could've played better, but my point is, I wouldn't have even managed to hang on this long if it weren't for amulet. Viking/raven/banshee kills literally everything cost-efficiently that isn't a templar. Phoenixes? Not against mass-PDDs + vikings. Stalkers? Haha they even suck without PDD vs banshees. Toss has NOTHING remotely cost-efficient on terms of ground-to-air play. Terran has marines and thors, zerg has hydras (and fungal!), toss has weakass stalkers and...yes....storm. Storm is awsome vs light air, but I can't see how I could be able to keep the templars alive long enough for them to collect energy. This is the frickin point, not the "time" is the problem, but that my opponent will FIND them and SNIPE them! Where should I warp them in? If I warp them in too far away, then they need forever to march across the map. I need to place them "somewhat" near the point of action, but there they just won't survive long enough vs constant air pressure. To see that this style is actually viable on the highest level, watch qxc vs whitera IEM. Yes whitera won...but he managed to hang on just barely, without the amulet he would've lost, I'm 100% sure of that. Also qxc's macro slipped at the end, right before he called gg he had nearly 2k gas banked. Furthermore I have no idea whatsoever why qxc didn't attack at multiple locations. My diamond opponent did that lol, but qxc left whiteras third/4th/and-so-on completely untouched. http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/43981 Anyways, this question is dead serious: what could/should toss do vs "that" without amulet? | ||
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SlipperySnake
248 Posts
Not that I don't like the nail biting race to either feedback or snipe but that relationship is what is generating most of the discussion when talking about changing one of the casters. | ||
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Satoros
38 Posts
However, what I do see an issue with is the fact that colossus are already favored much more than HT in general, for various reasons. Regardless of the specific mechanics of the HT before and after this patch, it is a nerf, which will cause even more of a skew towards colossus-based play. As long as they follow this up with some more changes to HT, or something else related for protoss, it should work out fine for overall balancing. However, if not, it seems like this change just makes protoss even more predictable and one-dimensional, with fewer viable options. In case people weren't already sick of colossus in every game, well... how about now? | ||
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dump
Japan514 Posts
On March 23 2011 05:11 Satoros wrote: However, what I do see an issue with is the fact that colossus are already favored much more than HT in general, for various reasons. Regardless of the specific mechanics of the HT before and after this patch, it is a nerf, which will cause even more of a skew towards colossus-based play. Food for thought: I was in diamond rank 1 until last month, playing 3 gate colossus, with the occasional phoenix builds and straight-to-templar builds. Then I decided to stop playing colossus, because it was boring. Soon after, I got dropped to platinum. Protoss is completely dependent on colossus and force field right now. Force fields are still somewhat amusing at the mid-high levels since there's still some skill to be gained, but colossus is a chore. And yes, now I'm even more stuck on colossus. | ||
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Satoros
38 Posts
On March 23 2011 06:22 dump wrote: Food for thought: I was in diamond rank 1 until last month, playing 3 gate colossus, with the occasional phoenix builds and straight-to-templar builds. Then I decided to stop playing colossus, because it was boring. Soon after, I got dropped to platinum. Protoss is completely dependent on colossus and force field right now. Force fields are still somewhat amusing at the mid-high levels since there's still some skill to be gained, but colossus is a chore. And yes, now I'm even more stuck on colossus. See, that's what's bad for the game: feeling like if you want to be competitive, you're suck with only one tech choice (colossus). Hopefully, this is not the only change Blizzard is going to make. | ||
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teekesselchen
Germany886 Posts
1) The fact that Warpgate production is "negative" is already accounted into balance - every race is very special and has very good traits, such as zerg beeing free to switch between heavy worker and unit production freely and so on. 2) Units cannot really die while beeing produced, while an HT can die or be EMPed (which is pretty much the same for a toss) while it's still waiting for energy (and could already die/lose energy while beeing warped in) I think it is just too risky to produce HTs for the sake of storms from now on. 1. Enemy has a lot of time to react - he even sees the unit way before it could do anything 2. HTs can die before beeing even close to storm - the risk of wasting these 150 Gas for an HT -means losing it or the energy before it could storm- was rather low until now, but without Kaydarin it's immensily all of the sudden. Imo HTs won't have a role at all anymore, the terror of losing 150 gas for nothing before it can storm is way too big. It's going to be as exotic as Battlecruisers and Ultralisks are at the current state. I think it makes the game more boring for both players and spectators. The great thing about HTs were the macro games where there were expansions and harassment everywhere. Now this is not possible to do with HTs anymore, rather camping will be required when going for HTs, and less mobile/farspread games will result with Colossus tech, as it results in big blob syndrome, as everyone sees. Furthermore I doubt the situation could be compared to Broodwar, because the role of Protoss has changed drastically. Stalkers and Warpgates make Protoss beeing a hugely mobile race compared to BW while Terrans and Zerg got face-to-face always-ready fighting units in form of Marauders and Roaches now. Kaydarin Amulet giving an instant storm was a very important part of that new face of Protoss. Now, given that Infestors would all of the sudden become the new super weapon against protoss, Blizzard might think that this will result into building HT for feedbacking, and then teching storm because the HTs are already there. This would bring back HTs for TvZ. But, I think much rather Protoss will just try to snipe Infestors with range 9 colossi... way less risky than a whole tech tree just for one-purpose counter units. | ||
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dump
Japan514 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + For all 3 games, all he did was mass up to 200/200 and hope to land some EMPs against the protoss 200/200 ball. It's sad, because this is Boxer we're talking about, who's very much the icon of entertaining high-level play. I'm pretty sure most people are just going to start doing the same BGH/rock paper scissors style play even at the lower levels now... | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On March 23 2011 07:27 dump wrote: Has anyone seen Boxer's games vs. NightEnD on TSL? + Show Spoiler + For all 3 games, all he did was mass up to 200/200 and hope to land some EMPs against the protoss 200/200 ball. I'm pretty sure most people are just going to start doing the same BGH/rock paper scissors style play even at the lower levels now... yeah and boxer won easily in all engagements. except game2 where he waited to long. so protoss hat already 2 T3 with AoE out while Terran was still using T2 at best still the engagement in game 1 shows how strong Bio is and how weak protoss will be without a reliable HT backbone. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11050 Posts
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DreamSailor
Canada433 Posts
On March 23 2011 07:44 Sabu113 wrote: Just played a few matches post patch. God the risk reward for storm is terrible now. If it's going to stay damage and radius must be boosted significantly. Also most importantly, move speed has to be somewhat decent so you can actually retreat with templar. They move slower than a concussed zealot -.- Absolutely brutal to use them. I was afraid of this. I probably won't risk HT most games, it only had situational use, and this was what I feared would happen. | ||
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Cuh
United States403 Posts
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manicshock
Canada741 Posts
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Goldfish
2230 Posts
On March 17 2011 13:36 CentsOfFate wrote: Compared to the BW Counterpart of the High Templar, the new 1.3 High Templar in SC2 is worse in almost every way possible. SC2 Storm's DPS doesn't do not even close to what BW Storm did and the radius is also a bit smaller. And with KA gone, there is seriously no reason to go Templar at all. In the fast paced game that Blizzard created, waiting 44 seconds for storm to come up is way too long, considering High Templar become Protoss's way of dealing damage in the mid-game. I agree. Sadly Blizzard removed Amulet without any compromise (like make it +20 energy boost or have psi storm have a "starting cooldown" of 10 seconds or something). If they don't decide to readd it in a future patch, they may add it back in HotS. Dustin Browder said they'll "unnerf" the Reaper in HotS and probably other stuff too if that's the case. | ||
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