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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 24 2011 04:42 Dakkon B wrote:
Well I would love to discuss this with a blizz employee that can have a voice for the community on the balance team.
(Note I didn't have time to read all 68 pages so sorry if these points were brought up already I just wanted to give another point of view hopefully)
I do not agree with the KA removal. While yes stat wise the times for each unit to be able to cast their spell from creation is now a lot closer, the thing I feel was not covered in those numbers was the time and resources it takes to Tech to each of those units.
While HT are a T4 unit
Pylon -> Gateway -> Cybernetics Core -> Twilight Council -> Templar Archives = 750m 300g 225s
An addition 200m200g110s for Storm 75s if you Chrono Boosted it and another 50m50g for Warp Gate Upgrade. No time for WG cause you will be getting it while warping in TC and TA so it doesn't add any more time.
So JUST to get HT w/ Storm no Warp in effect. = 950m 500g 300s
Infesters are T2.5 ?
Spawning Pool -> Lair -> Infestation Pit = 450m 200g 195s.
Wasn't sure if I should include the drones cause you start with 6 so it technically doesn't cost you anything if you JUST went for these buildings BUT realistically I have to SOOO..
+2 drones = 550m 200g 195s
Lastly Ghosts are a T2
Supply Depo -> Barracks -> Tech Lab + Ghost Academy = 500m150g150s
Didn't not add the Tech Lab build time cause again you would be making it while the GA was building so it doe not add any time.
So Total number lined up are as follows
HT w/ Storm = 950m 500g 300s (w/ Chrono)
Infestor w/ Fungal = 550m 200g 195s
Ghost w/ EMP = 500m 150g 150s
SO based on those numbers HT require the biggest investment both in resources and time. Yet vs Fungal and EMP have more bang for their buck effect.. Both require no upgrades to get and are instantaneous on their effects vs storm which requires an upgrade and the damage from storm can be mitigated upwards of 2/3 of it depending on control/stim/creep ect ect.
Point I'm trying to make is HT are already much harder to tech to than the other races casters. Why did they feel the need to remove an upgrade that gave HT a little more versatility in a defensive warp in role. I mean 1 storm was never enough to drive off a drop you always had to use 2 or more so thats min 100m 300g just to defend a drop that you might not kill if the aggressor is on top of his game and ran away after doing minor damage.
I don't understand Blizzards logic forcing Toss to play with less and less options.
These points have been covered thoroughly. And to summarize for you:
High Templar, barring rush and timing plays, is a late game tech. So, in most standard games the Protoss player will almosy certainly already have a Twilight Council (+2 and +3 upgrades, and unlocks key Gateway abilities.)
So it's not really "Pylon -> Gateway -> Cybernetics Core -> Twilight Council -> Templar Archives" it's more like, "If you want HTs, build a Templar Archives, and start storm research."
So it is admirable that you went to all that work, but that point has been satisfied, in my opinion. It's not so much "how hard is it to tech to," as "how well is it doing its intended role once it arrives?"
Thanks for engaging the conversation!
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HT's complaints come from how they're able to warp to anywhere and cast storm, not that they're able to cast storm right after they're made. its unfortunate that KA is removed, which is the wrong cause of why this is "imbalanced".
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Same could be said about Ghosts and infesters its a infestation pit is a must for zerg late tech hive and ghost academy is a "if you want to build them just drop a GA" too.
What I ment by all that is HT are a larger investment over all. Either by fact that it takes more resources to get to them (I E less units over all) or fact that they are less useful than other race casters at turning an engagement in your favor. (FF do a much better job) When one EMP can win an entire game I don't see why HT being able to instant storm to/shut down a harassment or reinforce a push is a problem. Its not game winning by itself while other effects in the game can be but are not effected.
Removing the amulet forces you to build them in advance which some games isn't a big deal, however in those really close games where every single mineral/choice you make effects the outcome. Building them in advance can become a huge mistake one that you can't recover from unlike other races where it is not as big of a blunder.
It takes them out as an "O SNAP" response option. Your ONLY option for reactionary play as toss is Warp Gate units (not like you can build a Immortal to hold a siege tank attack you missed cause T was preventing scouting. Meaning (to me this is all opinion mind you) you will have to warp in units AWAY from lets say a drop then run them in cause warping them in at the site causes them to get sniped before they finish OR the drop to run away BUT during that time either your harvesters have either ran away (econ damage) or kept mining and taken loses (econ damage) there is no SOLID option just a lesser of evils.
While Z is one story I'm thinking of things like 4-8 man stim marauder drops those things are extremely scary and you can NOT run back to save your expo in time nor can a cannon or 2 hold they usually snipe either a nexus or at least 300 mins wroth of "stuff" (cannons probes ect ect) while depending on terrain can run away with no loses. They could do this before with high effectiveness WHILE you had the option of storming to kick them out (risking storming your own guys) So what can you do now that you have even less options?
Anyways this is getting long again so I'll wait for reply to add to conversation.
Plus I felt the need to add that info as a basis (starting point) you can't just discuss a unit based on their raw effect on field you need to look at everything it takes to get said units on to the field.
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10 PvT's into the new patch, and they've all ended the same way.
He gets a critical mass of vikings, my Colossi die, and my now worthless gateway units crumble. Normally at this point the tech switch to HT's would be nearing completion, and his huge investments into vikings would bite him in the ass. Now?
There is no tech switch from Colossi. You lose your colossi? Make more Colossi. Repeat until the game is over. Terran never really gets punished for overmaking vikings, as Gateway units just melt.
Even worse, Colossi still aren't fun. The (now) entire point of Protoss play is still a soulless a-move unit.
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All this remind me of the siege tank nerf from 50 to 35 vs light. Most of the terrans were saying - shit now a crap ton of chargelots will storm through my tank lines, or even mass zerglins because with one hit i can kill only one zergling or baneling. And then terrans adapted, started spreading siege tnaks, putting them in multiple lines, giving them proper support.
Now toss players are whining, my ht is worthless, i am losing every single game because of the nerf. Chances are you would be still losing even if KA wasnt removed. HT is still poweful unit, just requiers more planing, more strategical thinking.
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On March 24 2011 07:29 Mali__Slon wrote:
All this remind me of the siege tank nerf from 50 to 35 vs light. Most of the terrans were saying - shit now a crap ton of chargelots will storm through my tank lines, or even mass zerglins because with one hit i can kill only one zergling or baneling. And then terrans adapted, started spreading siege tnaks, putting them in multiple lines, giving them proper support.
Now toss players are whining, my ht is worthless, i am losing every single game because of the nerf. Chances are you would be still losing even if KA wasnt removed. HT is still poweful unit, just requiers more planing, more strategical thinking.
Even as a protoss player I insist that the old tanks were better.
All this nerfing is making the game slower and slower and more and more homogenized.
I'd rather have a 55% loss rate than 20% less fun.
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On March 24 2011 05:58 Psychopomp wrote:
He gets a critical mass of vikings, my Colossi die, and my now worthless gateway units crumble. Normally at this point the tech switch to HT's would be nearing completion, and his huge investments into vikings would bite him in the ass.
Did you only build HTs when KA was done before? When I tech switch to Templar I make a few when the archives finish so they can build up mana while storm researches. Feedback can come in handy, too. Then when storm drops, I try to force a decisive engagement so I can fry his ass with storm and then get some real damage in on his economy or production buildings.
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On March 24 2011 07:29 Mali__Slon wrote:
All this remind me of the siege tank nerf from 50 to 35 vs light. Most of the terrans were saying - shit now a crap ton of chargelots will storm through my tank lines, or even mass zerglins because with one hit i can kill only one zergling or baneling. And then terrans adapted, started spreading siege tnaks, putting them in multiple lines, giving them proper support.
Now toss players are whining, my ht is worthless, i am losing every single game because of the nerf. Chances are you would be still losing even if KA wasnt removed. HT is still poweful unit, just requiers more planing, more strategical thinking.
the two doesn't compare...
i'm sure people will adapt but KA has been loved since day 1 and its unfortunate to see it go because of warpgates. i'd prefer to see warpgate gone than KA 
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Seems pointless to talk about something that no longer exists in the game.
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On March 24 2011 05:58 Psychopomp wrote:
10 PvT's into the new patch, and they've all ended the same way.
He gets a critical mass of vikings, my Colossi die, and my now worthless gateway units crumble. Normally at this point the tech switch to HT's would be nearing completion, and his huge investments into vikings would bite him in the ass. Now?
There is no tech switch from Colossi. You lose your colossi? Make more Colossi. Repeat until the game is over. Terran never really gets punished for overmaking vikings, as Gateway units just melt.
Even worse, Colossi still aren't fun. The (now) entire point of Protoss play is still a soulless a-move unit.
we will need more Gateway / Sentry Play, without HT threat, countering Colossus is way to easy for terrans, only go colossus if you see heavy rax play
ty blizzard.
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Every little change gets so much hate it's crazy.
I'm not sure what level many of these players are playing at - but I can promise you that 90%+ PvTs going templar will in the end have the same effect as going any kind of collosis/pheonix or immortal/chargelot build... Just look at how often you see templar in 10-15%?
Next of all, templars aren`t useless - sure you can`t warp and storm a mineral line right away but you can still use warp prism to carry them and they are still very useful in battle. I`ll be honest, I feel like everyone commenting here is platinum players, because the change really isn`t significant compared to the big changes like roach nerf or sentry nerf where there was no complaining. At high level the protoss ball is very very powerful, especially with good storm usage, and a little weakening was very necessary. It came along with a decent zealot buff which is being overlooked. So I ask, let`s stop whining until we see some high level games pan out.
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there was no complaining about roach and sentry nerf because they were obvious imbas to everyone. HT is nerf a) is not obvious b) forces even more boring ass col play which is easily countered. c) every protoss, if they like winning, will play like MC and 4 and 6 gate from now on at high level making protoss games even more boring to watch.
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I didn't think this was such a huge nerf, but now i realize that it is. Losing a templar archive to a marauder drop sucks so much now. Collossi are the only way to go, and templar can be used very late game to support your collossi a bit, but honestly it might not even be worth it to invest in them. The emp nerf seriously does nothing vs templar, but it is for sure a nerf vs sentries. I'll have to live with these changes, but honestly, im so sick of collossi, they are so boring, require no micro and just plain suck to use. Hope some pros show some games of how to use templars still. Also hope the game gets more fun with future expansions.
Also the zealot buff really isn't that big of a buff at all. I'd call it an extremely minor buff that will probably never make a difference. I think some people think that it means that zealots are guaranteed a hit, but it really doesn't. All it means is that before, SOMETIMES, a zealot would charge up to a marauder and then for some reason not attack. Now if it gets to the marauder it will attack. The zealot still has to get there. Basically they are just as weak/strong as before. At least as far as I've noticed, maybe someone can prove me wrong?
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On March 24 2011 07:40 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 05:58 Psychopomp wrote:
10 PvT's into the new patch, and they've all ended the same way.
He gets a critical mass of vikings, my Colossi die, and my now worthless gateway units crumble. Normally at this point the tech switch to HT's would be nearing completion, and his huge investments into vikings would bite him in the ass. Now?
There is no tech switch from Colossi. You lose your colossi? Make more Colossi. Repeat until the game is over. Terran never really gets punished for overmaking vikings, as Gateway units just melt.
Even worse, Colossi still aren't fun. The (now) entire point of Protoss play is still a soulless a-move unit.
we will need more Gateway / Sentry Play, without HT threat, countering Colossus is way to easy for terrans, only go colossus if you see heavy rax play ty blizzard.
Most of the protoss QQ posts are ridiculously illogical, I have to have a say in this.
In direct counter to your 'analogy', ever think about making Pheonixes to counter vikings?
Archons to do massive splash dmg on the vikings? There are other options P has against T who has gone viking counter vs. colossus.
You guys whine that you guys now don't have the ultimate 'oh-shit' counter to nearly everything, but wait and watch - HTs are still very potent and powerful.
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this is not balance whining this is describing what i see on ladder
i am fine with gateway armies as long as terrans will get blindly vikings 
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On March 24 2011 07:56 pzea469 wrote:
I didn't think this was such a huge nerf, but now i realize that it is. Losing a templar archive to a marauder drop sucks so much now. Collossi are the only way to go, and templar can be used very late game to support your collossi a bit, but honestly it might not even be worth it to invest in them. The emp nerf seriously does nothing vs templar, but it is for sure a nerf vs sentries. I'll have to live with these changes, but honestly, im so sick of collossi, they are so boring, require no micro and just plain suck to use. Hope some pros show some games of how to use templars still. Also hope the game gets more fun with future expansions.
Also the zealot buff really isn't that big of a buff at all. I'd call it an extremely minor buff that will probably never make a difference. I think some people think that it means that zealots are guaranteed a hit, but it really doesn't. All it means is that before, SOMETIMES, a zealot would charge up to a marauder and then for some reason not attack. Now if it gets to the marauder it will attack. The zealot still has to get there. Basically they are just as weak/strong as before. At least as far as I've noticed, maybe someone can prove me wrong?
What's funny is people are calling a BUG FIX a BUFF. Zealots still don't hit if you're fast enough.. Problem before is Zealots would actually not hit retreating army even making contact with them.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=204188
As far as fun. about 1/3 of toss units are simply not viable anymore due to eoither UP or easily countered due to boxed in linear play and I bet my computer all you'll see is WG rushes at high level from now on. Won't be fun to watch thats for sure. Playing is always fun.
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On March 24 2011 07:29 Mali__Slon wrote:
All this remind me of the siege tank nerf from 50 to 35 vs light. Most of the terrans were saying - shit now a crap ton of chargelots will storm through my tank lines, or even mass zerglins because with one hit i can kill only one zergling or baneling. And then terrans adapted, started spreading siege tnaks, putting them in multiple lines, giving them proper support.
Now toss players are whining, my ht is worthless, i am losing every single game because of the nerf. Chances are you would be still losing even if KA wasnt removed. HT is still poweful unit, just requiers more planing, more strategical thinking.
Err. The tank nerf did change the matchup.
People don't use tanks nearly as much in PvT anymore, where they were used frequently before the nerf.
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On March 24 2011 08:15 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2011 07:29 Mali__Slon wrote:
All this remind me of the siege tank nerf from 50 to 35 vs light. Most of the terrans were saying - shit now a crap ton of chargelots will storm through my tank lines, or even mass zerglins because with one hit i can kill only one zergling or baneling. And then terrans adapted, started spreading siege tnaks, putting them in multiple lines, giving them proper support.
Now toss players are whining, my ht is worthless, i am losing every single game because of the nerf. Chances are you would be still losing even if KA wasnt removed. HT is still poweful unit, just requiers more planing, more strategical thinking. Err. The tank nerf did change the matchup. People don't use tanks nearly as much in PvT anymore, where they were used frequently before the nerf.
I never said that it didnt. Terrans just adapted to use tanks a little differently.
Eg they were must in any terran arsenal. All terran games were basically built around tanks. With nerf bio started evolving, and now tanks to some players like Jinro we see that tanks are still viable option.
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After playing around with the change I changed my mind: The removal is not too bad for Protoss lategame, in fact its pretty reasonable. Yes, you can place some templars at every base lategame (hide them a bit) to stop drops together with warp-in units and so it lowers the army count elsewhere a bit, so its a decent nerf to protoss lategame but not too bad.
The bad thing is, that going Temps on 2 or even 3 bases as an answer to a massive bioplay ist just stupid with that nerf. Some good emps and u will simply die (anyone arguing that u can annihalate a whole bioball with one storm probably never played t or p and that all u could do with warp-in storms on 2-3 bases, warp in 1 or 2 temps). So it makes early HTs just not worthwhile and makes DT Openings more or less an Allin.
So i will still get Temps in really late game fights, I just will never ever open with them again. Just going 4Gate, 6Gate, 3Gate+Collossi or Stargate Opening from now on. Its kind of sad because early on temps with KA really werent op.
Still would have preferred a light KA Nerf (the +15 Energy maybe a bit faster researched?) accompanied with a light Collossus nerf.
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I have my own opinions about ht and this nerf but it has mostly been talked to death in this thread so I will just say what really bothers me (aside from losing a key function of my favorite unit). When i read the notes my first thought was "really Blizzard? you had to resort to this again?". I dont doubt their balance team's ability to even up the game for all races but it makes me SO sad that the answer was just to remove something from the game entirely. First it was flux veins ( or whatever that VR upgrade was called) and now this. Change I can stomach an almost unlimited amount of but outright removal of game content makes me so sad.
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EPT
