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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On April 29 2011 22:44 Thorxes wrote:
A reason FOR KA was that if there's drop harrass. A ghost or infestor can get to the drop area (especially if it's scouted) and respond in a decent amount of time. Getting an HT from even just your natural to your main is laughable. So waiting the 5 second warp in time (assuming you had a warpgate with a cooldown available) to storm the drop (which could move out of the storm btw) was a reasonable way for the caster to handle the harrassment. Now that's gone, and you have to leave an HT in your mineral lines INCASE there's a drop.
This really shows how stupid the whole post is. "A Ghost to fight off a drop" .... ROFLMAO, really? Psi Storm is the AREA DAMAGE effect with the HIGHEST potential damage (*1) of the three casters which works against all targets.
If you want to defend against a drop build some frigging cannons to defend OR warp in some Stalkers / Zealots but please dont expect any sympathy for wanting an "area vacuum drop cleaner in ez mode".
(*1) Yes, EMP only "removes" shield and deals ZERO damage and Snipe only works on BIOLOGICAL units which only Zealots, HTs and DTs are out of the Protoss army. In any case the EMP only does 50 "damage" to Zealots, 80 to Stalkers and 40 to Sentries and you can never ever kill a unit with chain-EMPs.
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On April 29 2011 23:07 zanmat0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 22:58 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 29 2011 22:12 zanmat0 wrote:
They're absolutely worthless now, as expected. And with the ghost buff next patch, they might as well flat out remove them along with sentries. Protoss has effectively been dumbed down to 1a Colossi.
Thanks Blizz. Keep on ruining your game. And yet these "worthless" units win games at the pro level. There was no way MC would have won that game vs. Thorzain if he hadn't gone Templar tech, the feedbacks allowed him to deal with the EMPs the ghosts were dishing out with added utility to storm the bio. Not only that, Archons are about to become a great deal better versus Terran. So just because the best player in the world, with 300 apm, can still squeeze some usefulness out of the crippled unit makes it all okay? Those same pro players did perfectly fine against pre 1.3 HTs by the way, and so did the majority of the community. If you recall, the main complaint pre-patch was that Colossi were too powerful and still nothing has been done to address that.
well, I know for pros that kind of nerf won't have a huge impact in the game.
But for nubs like me, that got raped with warp prism templar warp-in + storm mineral lines the nerf is a blessing.
I actually switch races from Terran to Toss in season 2, because with my awesome 70-80 average APM I could just not micro my bio (mech was sitting duck in that case) out of banelings + mutas/storms. Or warping in templars at the end of a battle I just won and raping a 50-60 food army I have left in 2 seconds...I mean, that was completely fucked up. I tried better micro/macro, but I had to be way better than my opponents to win games. So I was hovering in bronze/silver.
Switched races to Toss - Not I'm playing in Gold/Plat.
What I'm trying to say here is that I love changes that make the game a bit easier/enjoyable for ppl like me that can afford to play at most 4-5 games/day. I love them and I welcome them. For you guys, that dish out 20-30games/day, I'm pretty sure you can find a workaround for the nerf of KD.
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On April 29 2011 23:07 zanmat0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 22:58 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 29 2011 22:12 zanmat0 wrote:
They're absolutely worthless now, as expected. And with the ghost buff next patch, they might as well flat out remove them along with sentries. Protoss has effectively been dumbed down to 1a Colossi.
Thanks Blizz. Keep on ruining your game. And yet these "worthless" units win games at the pro level. There was no way MC would have won that game vs. Thorzain if he hadn't gone Templar tech, the feedbacks allowed him to deal with the EMPs the ghosts were dishing out with added utility to storm the bio. Not only that, Archons are about to become a great deal better versus Terran. So just because the best player in the world, with 300 apm, can still squeeze some usefulness out of the crippled unit makes it all okay? Those same pro players did perfectly fine against pre 1.3 HTs by the way, and so did the majority of the community. If you recall, the main complaint pre-patch was that Colossi were too powerful and still nothing has been done to address that.
I was merely saying that they're clearly not worthless and are still vital to high level play in the matchup. Saying they're worthless is unnecessary hyperbole.
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Protoss: warps in HT (5 Seconds)
Terran: produces Ghost (40 Seconds)
Zerg: morphs Infestor (50 Seconds)
Protoss: Storm research 110s (chronoboosted 73s)
Terran: Moebius Reactor research 80 Seconds (+25 Starting Energy)
Zerg: Pathogen Glands research 80 Seconds (+25 Starting Energy)
so if all races start production and spell-research at the same time, which race will be the first to use their spell and will the advantage be significant?
HTs will be able to cast at 11:18 Minute (right after Storm finished) while Ghosts and Infestors pop out at 10:40 / 10:50 and have to wait 45 seconds for their energy to reach 75, since the upgrades are still in research. Now lets look at a later stage in the game - the 15 Minute mark. Again all three race initiate Caster production.
Protoss: HT can storm at 15:50 (waiting for 25 Energy takes 45 s)
Terran: Ghost EMP at 15:40
Zerg: Infestor Fungal Growth at 15:50
In addition High Templers can counter both of the other casters with feedback as soon as they are warped in. All in All this looks pretty fair in terms of "time".
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On April 29 2011 23:43 zul wrote:
Protoss: warps in HT (5 Seconds)
Terran: produces Ghost (40 Seconds)
Zerg: morphs Infestor (50 Seconds)
Protoss: Storm research 110s (chronoboosted 55s)
Terran: Moebius Reactor research 80 Seconds (+25 Starting Energy)
Zerg: Pathogen Glands research 80 Seconds (+25 Starting Energy)
so if all races start production and spell-research at the same time, which race will be the first to use their spell and will the advantage be significant?
HTs will be able to cast at 10:55 Minute (right after Storm finished) while Ghosts and Infestors pop out at 10:40 / 10:50 and have to wait for their energy to reach 75, since the upgrades are still in research. Now lets look at a later stage in the game - the 15 Minute mark. Again all three race initiate Caster production.
Protoss: HT can storm at 15:50 (waiting for 25 Energy takes 45 s)
Terran: Ghost EMP at 15:40
Zerg: Infestor Fungal Growth at 15:50
In addition High Templers can counter both of the other casters with feedback as soon as they are warped in. All in All this looks pretty fair in terms of "time".
Your math is bad for storm research, chronos would have to make build time 100% faster to cut it in half. Chrono only does 50% which is somewhere in between 55 and 110 im not sure exactly (hate percentage math). I think it's something like 110/1.5 = 73s.
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you may be right - I`ll edit it 
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On April 29 2011 23:27 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2011 22:44 Thorxes wrote:
A reason FOR KA was that if there's drop harrass. A ghost or infestor can get to the drop area (especially if it's scouted) and respond in a decent amount of time. Getting an HT from even just your natural to your main is laughable. So waiting the 5 second warp in time (assuming you had a warpgate with a cooldown available) to storm the drop (which could move out of the storm btw) was a reasonable way for the caster to handle the harrassment. Now that's gone, and you have to leave an HT in your mineral lines INCASE there's a drop. This really shows how stupid the whole post is. "A Ghost to fight off a drop" .... ROFLMAO, really? Psi Storm is the AREA DAMAGE effect with the HIGHEST potential damage (*1) of the three casters which works against all targets. If you want to defend against a drop build some frigging cannons to defend OR warp in some Stalkers / Zealots but please dont expect any sympathy for wanting an "area vacuum drop cleaner in ez mode". (*1) Yes, EMP only "removes" shield and deals ZERO damage and Snipe only works on BIOLOGICAL units which only Zealots, HTs and DTs are out of the Protoss army. In any case the EMP only does 50 "damage" to Zealots, 80 to Stalkers and 40 to Sentries and you can never ever kill a unit with chain-EMPs.
I don't expect a terran to defend a drop with just a ghost. Similarly I don't expect a protoss to defend a drop with just an HT. Again, the dropping units can just move out of the storm.
But BOTH of those units will help to soften the drop for the respective 1-1.5 tier units to fight off the drop.
The problem is that if the "fire-squad" assigned to handle the drop has to move almost any distance at all; in the protoss case, the HT will trail behind and not be able to do it's "softening" while the ghost can.
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At first i thought that nobody would make templar. But really Templar a still just as popular. And its still rediculous the amounts of storm they can shoot out.
Good Job Bliz. And for those who say drops are impossible to stop now. try the new Chargelots. They are pretty good at stopping drops on their own.
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HT's are just fine still, I see them used a LOT because they do sooooo much damage. I ROFL every time I read a protoss whining about drops, you have WARP IN, that immediately makes your drop defense the best of all the races. Warping in a round of zealots or stalkers immediately nullifies a drop. This is a HUGE benefit because you don't have to move your army back into your base.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 30 2011 02:08 dmillz wrote:
HT's are just fine still, I see them used a LOT because they do sooooo much damage. I ROFL every time I read a protoss whining about drops, you have WARP IN, that immediately makes your drop defense the best of all the races. Warping in a round of zealots or stalkers immediately nullifies a drop. This is a HUGE benefit because you don't have to move your army back into your base.
Protoss drop defense is fine with a high upgrade style, don't need HT's for it. DT's pretty much took that job.
But I still think zerg has much better drop defense: creep and defensive nydus worms can make dropping literally impossible.
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On April 30 2011 02:15 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 02:08 dmillz wrote:
HT's are just fine still, I see them used a LOT because they do sooooo much damage. I ROFL every time I read a protoss whining about drops, you have WARP IN, that immediately makes your drop defense the best of all the races. Warping in a round of zealots or stalkers immediately nullifies a drop. This is a HUGE benefit because you don't have to move your army back into your base. Protoss drop defense is fine with a high upgrade style, don't need HT's for it. DT's pretty much took that job. But I still think zerg has much better drop defense: creep and defensive nydus worms can make dropping literally impossible.
DTs? really? Two Dropships full of Marine + Marauder can probably snipe 4 buildings before DTs take them out.
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I duno about you guys, but I have only used storm in 2 of my games since this patch change
...sure hate it when terrans blindly get vikings and already have2 on the way by the time i lay down my robo
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On April 29 2011 23:43 zul wrote:
Protoss: warps in HT (5 Seconds)
Terran: produces Ghost (40 Seconds)
Zerg: morphs Infestor (50 Seconds)
Protoss: Storm research 110s (chronoboosted 73s)
Terran: Moebius Reactor research 80 Seconds (+25 Starting Energy)
Zerg: Pathogen Glands research 80 Seconds (+25 Starting Energy)
so if all races start production and spell-research at the same time, which race will be the first to use their spell and will the advantage be significant?
HTs will be able to cast at 11:18 Minute (right after Storm finished) while Ghosts and Infestors pop out at 10:40 / 10:50 and have to wait 45 seconds for their energy to reach 75, since the upgrades are still in research. Now lets look at a later stage in the game - the 15 Minute mark. Again all three race initiate Caster production.
Protoss: HT can storm at 15:50 (waiting for 25 Energy takes 45 s)
Terran: Ghost EMP at 15:40
Zerg: Infestor Fungal Growth at 15:50
In addition High Templers can counter both of the other casters with feedback as soon as they are warped in. All in All this looks pretty fair in terms of "time".
Good job leaving out half of the relevant analysis in your post.
Tech trees?
WG cooldowns?
Feedback ST vs EMP AoE?
HT vulnerability while charging up?
HT speed?
It's simple-minded buffoons like you, who see everything in terms of black and white, that are convincing others that the balance and fun of SC2 can be tuned to basic math alone.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 30 2011 02:49 zanmat0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 02:15 Whitewing wrote:On April 30 2011 02:08 dmillz wrote:
HT's are just fine still, I see them used a LOT because they do sooooo much damage. I ROFL every time I read a protoss whining about drops, you have WARP IN, that immediately makes your drop defense the best of all the races. Warping in a round of zealots or stalkers immediately nullifies a drop. This is a HUGE benefit because you don't have to move your army back into your base. Protoss drop defense is fine with a high upgrade style, don't need HT's for it. DT's pretty much took that job. But I still think zerg has much better drop defense: creep and defensive nydus worms can make dropping literally impossible. DTs? really? Two Dropships full of Marine + Marauder can probably snipe 4 buildings before DTs take them out.
Yeah, go figure, if terran drops 2 full medivacs of troops, you can't kill them off really fast with 1 or 2 DT's.
So warp in 3-4 if they have 2 full drop ships. The point isn't to prevent drops from doing any damage at all folks, it's to make the drops too costly for the aggressor to keep doing. And no, there's no way he'd get 4 buildings, unless you sent one DT only or something.
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On April 30 2011 02:52 Roxy wrote:
I duno about you guys, but I have only used storm in 2 of my games since this patch change
...sure hate it when terrans blindly get vikings and already have2 on the way by the time i lay down my robo
This is precisely why I still use templar more than colossus. It is funny when I engage the terran and he has a few useless vikings and no ghosts.
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well HT obviously is less attractive as expected, the removal of KA lead into Storm timing attacks where the inital storms you have need to get the job done.
but it is still a pain in the ass how a terran can just spam 2-3 emps and remove the complete energy off all HT sure spread them out, but unless it is small numbers spreading doesn't do shit anymore.
Ht is still "viable" off course cause you need a techswitch because from colossus or you will just die to mass vikings killing them off. Still Drops as expected Drops are alot harder to hold,
my solution for that up until now was either DTs or Blink, while DTs are great if your opponent is a retard, blink seems like the more stable strategy.
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On April 30 2011 02:59 Mastermind wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 02:52 Roxy wrote:
I duno about you guys, but I have only used storm in 2 of my games since this patch change
...sure hate it when terrans blindly get vikings and already have2 on the way by the time i lay down my robo This is precisely why I still use templar more than colossus. It is funny when I engage the terran and he has a few useless vikings and no ghosts.
lol.. very sneaky
good thing they greedy and dont want to scan and find out your dirty secrets :D
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On April 30 2011 02:59 Mastermind wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 02:52 Roxy wrote:
I duno about you guys, but I have only used storm in 2 of my games since this patch change
...sure hate it when terrans blindly get vikings and already have2 on the way by the time i lay down my robo This is precisely why I still use templar more than colossus. It is funny when I engage the terran and he has a few useless vikings and no ghosts.
just because your opponent plays bad (no scout, no reactive play) doesn't make HT a viable option.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 30 2011 03:10 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 02:59 Mastermind wrote:On April 30 2011 02:52 Roxy wrote:
I duno about you guys, but I have only used storm in 2 of my games since this patch change
...sure hate it when terrans blindly get vikings and already have2 on the way by the time i lay down my robo This is precisely why I still use templar more than colossus. It is funny when I engage the terran and he has a few useless vikings and no ghosts. just because your opponent plays bad (no scout, no reactive play) doesn't make HT a viable option.
Actually it does, everything is viable if your opponent is awful. It doesn't make HT's viable when your opponent is GOOD, but when he's bad, it works fine =p
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On April 30 2011 03:14 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 03:10 freetgy wrote:On April 30 2011 02:59 Mastermind wrote:On April 30 2011 02:52 Roxy wrote:
I duno about you guys, but I have only used storm in 2 of my games since this patch change
...sure hate it when terrans blindly get vikings and already have2 on the way by the time i lay down my robo This is precisely why I still use templar more than colossus. It is funny when I engage the terran and he has a few useless vikings and no ghosts. just because your opponent plays bad (no scout, no reactive play) doesn't make HT a viable option. Actually it does, everything is viable if your opponent is awful. It doesn't make HT's viable when your opponent is GOOD, but when he's bad, it works fine =p
1 base mass archon ftw?
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EPT
