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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 02 2011 09:15 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:25 tehemperorer wrote:
Logic is flawed, OP. HT are instantly countered by ghosts. 1 EMP makes every HT lose shields and not be able to cast storm for 2 minutes and 13 seconds. If you were protoss and chose the HT tech path, you are shit out of luck. If Terran attacks in that 2 min 13 seconds, you will lose without the amulet. What's the solution? Go colossus. What does Terran do? Blindly build reactored vikings before you even have a robo facility. They can mass the cheap vikings before you even have 1 colossus, before range, and without scouting or scanning. It makes the PvT metagame so predictable for both sides, except the Terran have it better in viking/MMM because of mineral advantage and the ease of massing their units. Sorry didn't read all the read just skimmed important parts of OP and first page but posts like this make me feel like people don't think blizzard can do simple analysis like this on the matchup. They're not retarded.
No one is saying they're retarded. They have patched things before and later reversed them because of the amount of feedback, both emotional and factual, that the community brings to bear on their decisions. The implementation of that is the PTR
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On March 02 2011 10:36 edwahn wrote:
I'm sorry OP, but I registered specifically to pass my opinion that this "analysis" is rubbish.
Talking about build times/starting energy/warp and build mechanics independant of roughly one gazillion confounding factors is completely pointless.
The only specific that you mentioned that I want to dwell on is "is removing amulet going to balance casters".
How on earth you arrived on the conclusion "definitely yes" looking only at 3 different units is baffling. Is this a game where economic/tech mechanics are exactly the same for all three races? Do the three units perform exactly the same functions for each race? This is not a TvTvT where one marine has a bigger "gun" (snicker).
Here's my conclusion, in bold, which has about as much substantiated analysis as your OP. You are a terran player. Nuff said.
Do many people get banned for their first posts?
to answer your question plenty of times
Anyways to add content to my post main issue with the amulet is that because it was possible to warp in a templar on to anywhere on the battle field where there is pylon power and storm immediately compared to where as other units must come out of production builds and ready to emp fungal, but they can't immediately do so due to they gotta travel. As long as the concept of warping in storm is fixed the amulet it self is a none issue its the combined mechanic of warp gate tech as well as the amulet upgrade
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On March 02 2011 10:23 dignity wrote:
I would like to actually see people doing ht drops to feedback queens. That could actually screw up zerg production quite a bit. Probably not worth the effort though...
queens are usually really low on energy too, meaning it wouldnt do very much damage
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On March 02 2011 10:43 methematics wrote:
Since when is production time 5 secs for gateway units. Take this example: i wanna build 100 ht outta 5 gateways, thats 20 per gateway. so it should only take me 100 secs (1min 40secs) to warp in a maxed ht army right???? your analysis is very flawed.
My logic is not flawed. Your problem is that you, like many other players, are simply assuming that production rate and build time is same thing. That might be true for most Terran and Protoss units with standard production cycle, but not for Zerg units and Warpgate units.
So for example reactored Factory can build 4 Helions in minute, but it doesnt mean that production time of Helion is reduced to 15 seconds. It only doubles production rate.
Another example: Zerg can get 10 Ultralisk from one Hatchery per minute (with no stockpiled larvae) - thats production rate. It doesnt mean that production time is 6 seconds. Production time is always 70 seconds.
Warpgate timeline:
0:05 HT created (1)
0:45 cooldown expires
0:50 HT created (2)
1:30 cooldown expires
1:35 HT created (3)
2:15 cooldown expires
Barrack with Tech Lab timeline:
0:45 Ghost created (1)
1:30 Ghost created (2)
2:15 Ghost created (3)
So as you can see, you are getting every unit, not just first, with 40 seconds reduced build time.
All that cooldown does is keeping same production rate. But build time is 5 seconds.
You can not say that because you can build one HT per 45 seconds, that HT is building 45 seconds. It takes 5 seconds to get him, thus build time is 5 seconds.
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On March 02 2011 10:46 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 10:23 dignity wrote:
I would like to actually see people doing ht drops to feedback queens. That could actually screw up zerg production quite a bit. Probably not worth the effort though... queens are usually really low on energy too, meaning it wouldnt do very much damage
They could always bring Maelstrom back as a research XD
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On March 02 2011 04:09 Sek-Kuar wrote:
If Zerg has free larva, and energy upgrade for Infestors researched, it will take 50 seconds to get Infestor with 75 energy, and then Infestor has to move where is needed.
You're letting out some important stuff. You're stating how infestors will only be at the hatcheries when popped. That's true, but infestors on creep however are pretty fast.
Ghosts are just any ol' regular raxx-unit, that will follow your army around easilly.
High Templars... Now you need to warp them in, safely behind your army (I guess I'll warp 'em in at my natural). Then when you're going to move out, you will either have exposed templars without energy in your army - OR templars with full energy falling behind. This is a huuuuuge factor when suddenly encountered/flanked.
The only thing I read from this patch is: Protoss late game will be nerfed. Terran early game will be slightly nerfed. So honestly... I see 1.3 bringing alot more 4-gates, since it will only be stronger, and the idea of forcing it into late game is (somewhat) a worse option now.
Obviously this is only TvP matters. But this change might seem balanced for spellcasters but not for the overall perception of gameplay.
Besides... How is a protoss supposed to handle a counterdrop without HT's? Just 2 dropships with m&m can easilly take down one round of regular fighting gateway units.
I honestly cannot see why they would address the khaydarin amulet before the concussive or just the marauder as a general theme in this matchup.
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Cool, except protoss is not the same as terran or zerg. If you really want to compare what each other have, why cant protoss make a planetary and basically secure the expansion 100%?
and why do barracks units melt protoss equivalents incredibly one sidedly except under special circumstances?
and why cant protoss make 7 units at a time from 1 production building like zerg?
You do realize if ghosts and high templar trade evenly, the MMM is going to rape the protoss right?
NOT ALL RACES ARE THE SAME. You shouldn't be comparing casters to each other.
This thread is as pointless as explaining SC to my grandma.
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On March 02 2011 11:05 ExoD wrote:
Cool, except protoss is not the same as terran or zerg. If you really want to compare what each other have, why cant protoss make a planetary and basically secure the expansion 100%?
and why do barracks units melt protoss equivalents incredibly one sidedly except under special circumstances?
and why cant protoss make 7 units at a time from 1 production building like zerg?
You do realize if ghosts and high templar trade evenly, the MMM is going to rape the protoss right?
NOT ALL RACES ARE THE SAME. You shouldn't be comparing casters to each other.
This thread is as pointless as explaining SC to my grandma.
I like this reply 
Like the (closed) thread about the guy complaining about building time, health and abilities on spire vs starport vs stargate... It's not the same
Heck... Zerg can be on 4-5 bases, hit hive tech and instantly pump 10-12 ultras... I dont see no Protoss or Terran INSTANTLY change their unit composition, hence their production is pretty dedicated to w/e they're building already (with warpgate as the only SLIGHT difference).
And I know you'll say: Hey Mentalizor! Zergs rarely instantly make 10-12 ultras!
Well, I can tell you about the first 100games where my zerg opponent made 10 mutas as soon his spire finished... I can't make 10 void rays or phoenix, can I?
Overall... Different races, different perspective... Protoss needs something to deal with a bioball, since gateway units get utterly destroyed. Immortals are fine early on... But later, they're just in the way or too often out of range. You will need templars or collussi (or some good stargate units with control). Too often you'll see a terran doing nothing but m/m/m + viking an entire game. If a protoss went gatewaylol + warpprism + phoenix he'd might aswell gg as soon he sees his enemy is terran... Or... 4gate
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Your analysis doesn't take into account the purpose of the unit.
You are assuming a HT's ONLY use is for attacking. They are both attacking and defending units.
The reason this nerf was introduced (I feel) was because the unit was effective at stopping Terran drops in the late game. The unit / mechanism is no longer viable for this type of defence.
What bothers me about this being a solution is that I have NEVER seen a Terran player bring a Ghost with his drop. Given that a drop can do alot of damage to the economy of a Protoss player (and can be very difficult to stop without HT) it should be more of a risk, as opposed to less of one. A Ghost in a drop is one way to make sure the HT are ineffective and this can be done without any change to the upgrades of the HT...
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Personally, I never did use the Amulet upgrade. It just wasn't something that I found worth the minerals.
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On March 02 2011 11:25 Spectorials wrote:
What bothers me about this being a solution is that I have NEVER seen a Terran player bring a Ghost with his drop. Given that a drop can do alot of damage to the economy of a Protoss player (and can be very difficult to stop without HT) it should be more of a risk, as opposed to less of one. A Ghost in a drop is one way to make sure the HT are ineffective and this can be done without any change to the upgrades of the HT...
Drops are very risky, did you forget medvac speed nerf? Losing medvac full of units its quite easy, blink stalkers, feedback, pheonix are there to guarantee its very risky.
As for matter of khaderian amulet, I as terran player feel it should stay in the game. On diamond level it doesnt feel imbalanced. Sure you are obligated to make ghosts, but i make them anyway.
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so after accepting the fact that warpin storm is overpowered
protoss responds with "cant defend drops"
1-2 base, use obs at front of their base and leave a group of units in the back of ur main
3 base, u can use either dts to stall after drop and then reinforce with warpin
or u can leave 1 ht and a stalker in the back of ur main (feedback) which is actually better than storm for drops if u pay attention
so.......
lets be honest the upgrade was completely removed from the game
for a reason
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On March 02 2011 11:39 Mali__Slon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 11:25 Spectorials wrote:
What bothers me about this being a solution is that I have NEVER seen a Terran player bring a Ghost with his drop. Given that a drop can do alot of damage to the economy of a Protoss player (and can be very difficult to stop without HT) it should be more of a risk, as opposed to less of one. A Ghost in a drop is one way to make sure the HT are ineffective and this can be done without any change to the upgrades of the HT... Drops are very risky, did you forget medvac speed nerf? Losing medvac full of units its quite easy, blink stalkers, feedback, pheonix are there to guarantee its very risky. As for matter of khaderian amulet, I as terran player feel it should stay in the game. On diamond level it doesnt feel imbalanced. Sure you are obligated to make ghosts, but i make them anyway.
Blink Stalkers / Feedback - most Ts scan before they hit the landing. If you see a shitton of units, just retreat and drop another day. On phoenix I agree.
Though bringing a Ghost would make the "cost risk" higher, but if the drop gets through without problems, it will hurt the P even more. More risk - more possible reward, seems "fair".
On the other hand - regarding drops - the T just builds a Sensor Tower and has a nice prewarning system for enemy drops (which gives him time to move his army accordingly).
I as a Random player would say the change Jinro mentioned (in the other thread) would seem the best. Make KA give +15 energy and not +25. It's still nerfing the "omg warpin STOOORM" mechanic which seems to be the target of the nerf, but still keeps the HT more viable.
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On March 02 2011 11:25 Spectorials wrote:
Your analysis doesn't take into account the purpose of the unit.
You are assuming a HT's ONLY use is for attacking. They are both attacking and defending units.
The reason this nerf was introduced (I feel) was because the unit was effective at stopping Terran drops in the late game. The unit / mechanism is no longer viable for this type of defence.
What bothers me about this being a solution is that I have NEVER seen a Terran player bring a Ghost with his drop. Given that a drop can do alot of damage to the economy of a Protoss player (and can be very difficult to stop without HT) it should be more of a risk, as opposed to less of one. A Ghost in a drop is one way to make sure the HT are ineffective and this can be done without any change to the upgrades of the HT...
I believe the reason you don't see a ghost comes down to the cost & reaction time, if you lose that medivac + ghost that's a pretty big hit but theirs also the issue that you would have to time your EMP perfectly before the other player can drop a storm and thanks to the small travel time of the missile can be Extremely hard to do at the top levels where reactions times are near instant.
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On March 02 2011 11:51 biology]major wrote:
so after accepting the fact that warpin storm is overpowered
protoss responds with "cant defend drops"
1-2 base, use obs at front of their base and leave a group of units in the back of ur main
3 base, u can use either dts to stall after drop and then reinforce with warpin
or u can leave 1 ht and a stalker in the back of ur main (feedback) which is actually better than storm for drops if u pay attention
so.......
lets be honest the upgrade was completely removed from the game
for a reason
This would be nice in an idealized world, however, this simply isn't practical for taking out drops. Leaving a HT and a Stalker would be nice, but again, unless they're everywhere at once, there's going to be a spot in your base where the Medivac can unload its units. As someone said, HT move about as fast as a fly in treacle. Once its unloaded, it takes most of a production cycle to fight off the 4 marauders/8 marines that it dropped. The units sitting there are simply not going to cut it as an emergency response.
It would be nice to always have an observer watching their army and ensuring no drops move out. However, if the Terran player feigns pressure by simply moving out and sniping the observer, I'm forced to remake it, and I'm playing blind. If my army is at my front, and he drops, I'm going to lose stuff, and lots of stuff. If its at the back, and he simply attacks, I'm also going to lose stuff. If its split, and he attacks one of the two locations, I'm going to lose everything, as Protoss scales much better as a deathball than Terran or Zerg.
DTs sound like a wonderful idea in theory, but using them to delay drops doesn't really work for the same reason leaving 4 zealots to delay drops at each expo doesn't really work; MMM is really, really, really good against low numbers of units. They'll eat through your DTs, then run before your army can show up. I've delayed the drop, but I've also lost at least 125/125 resources to it - which is about the same price as a tech building. When resources matter, these will add up.
Fundamentally, removing this upgrade removes a tech path for Protoss simply due to only Colossi and Templars having the DPS we need to hold our expos. HTs were also our only cost-efficient way of punishing heavy drop Terrans when the game moved past 2 bases.
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
On March 02 2011 11:51 biology]major wrote:
so after accepting the fact that warpin storm is overpowered
protoss responds with "cant defend drops"
1-2 base, use obs at front of their base and leave a group of units in the back of ur main
3 base, u can use either dts to stall after drop and then reinforce with warpin
or u can leave 1 ht and a stalker in the back of ur main (feedback) which is actually better than storm for drops if u pay attention
so.......
lets be honest the upgrade was completely removed from the game
for a reason
This is exactly right! It's not like Terran or Zerg can instantly spawn units at any base in 5 seconds to fend off a drop, but protoss with Warp Gates and Templar Tech is easily capable of doing so.
Basically, the problem with isn't high templar, or warpgates, or even high templar with khaydarin amulet. It's high templar with khaydarin amulet AND warpgate combined. Instant huge force anywhere and horrible death ensues for terran drops, which usually consist of smaller units that die more easily to storms, like marines, and a feedbackable unit, the medivac.
The problem is that the high templar WITH amulet AND warp gate tech combined the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. I feel like the PTR test nerf might be a bit overboard though...
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On March 02 2011 07:07 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 06:58 thesauceishot wrote:
Is the 49.5 seconds for HT to have storm (without amulet) just 5 seconds for production time and 44.5 seconds for energy buildup? Why is gateway cooldown not factored in? How about the time for 2 HT to have storm compared to 2 ghosts having EMP?
People say storm drops are OP.. but then there's baneling drops or blue flame hellions that also devastate mineral lines. It's gonna be ridiculously hard to deal with drops without amulet now, since gateway units are so weak against Terran bio. Its always same: It takes 49,5 sec to get HT with 75 energy compared to 45 for Ghost, and 94,5 for 2 HT compared to 90 for 2 Ghost. With 1 Gate vs 1 Rax HT are always 4,5 sec behind with Storm, OFC having positional advantage and also much earlier Feedback. Production rate of HT and Ghost is same, HT just have longer time to gain energy because of 40 sec faster build time, so w/o amulet its basically equal. And cooldown is not factored because thats production cycle of previous unit, just like Terran can not get Ghost if he is building Marauder or Reaper.
Why is cooldown not factored in? Just because their total time is not measured in the same unit of measurement, doesn't mean it should be neglected. It doesn't make sense to me why you'd mention the Terran building Marauders or Reapers. You know how long the warpgate cooldown is for a high templar, it's not like its ambiguous.
So how long would it take to make 2 HT's with enough energy to storm without amulet and how long would it take to get 2 Ghosts with enough energy to EMP with upgrade?
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On March 02 2011 13:02 thesauceishot wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 07:07 Sek-Kuar wrote:On March 02 2011 06:58 thesauceishot wrote:
Is the 49.5 seconds for HT to have storm (without amulet) just 5 seconds for production time and 44.5 seconds for energy buildup? Why is gateway cooldown not factored in? How about the time for 2 HT to have storm compared to 2 ghosts having EMP?
People say storm drops are OP.. but then there's baneling drops or blue flame hellions that also devastate mineral lines. It's gonna be ridiculously hard to deal with drops without amulet now, since gateway units are so weak against Terran bio. Its always same: It takes 49,5 sec to get HT with 75 energy compared to 45 for Ghost, and 94,5 for 2 HT compared to 90 for 2 Ghost. With 1 Gate vs 1 Rax HT are always 4,5 sec behind with Storm, OFC having positional advantage and also much earlier Feedback. Production rate of HT and Ghost is same, HT just have longer time to gain energy because of 40 sec faster build time, so w/o amulet its basically equal. And cooldown is not factored because thats production cycle of previous unit, just like Terran can not get Ghost if he is building Marauder or Reaper. So how long would it take to make 2 HT's with enough energy to storm without amulet and how long would it take to get 2 Ghosts with enough energy to EMP with upgrade?
It's stated in the OP and in the post you just quoted.
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above poster your forgetting about the phyicaly walking distance of most maps,
most generally have a 90-160 second travel walking time bitween base and oppoments, how much engery can u regenerate in 60 seconds?
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i'm sorry but this is one of the most blatantly biased posts i've read in awhile. I appreciate the effort trying to back up your opinion with numbers, but this is apples to oranges
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EPT
