EPTTerran's T1 is already stronger than Protoss', now their lategame needs to be stronger too? Damn give me a break....sheesh
Khaydarin amulet analysis - Page 14
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. | ||
|
GooseBoy
United States66 Posts
Terran's T1 is already stronger than Protoss', now their lategame needs to be stronger too? Damn give me a break....sheesh | ||
|
danielsan
Romania399 Posts
On March 02 2011 07:21 Sek-Kuar wrote: Well you are right, in 90% of games Terran will react with Ghosts against Protoss building HT  I dont want to theorycraft (and IMO you shouldnt either), so Ill say just this: HT are generally stronger casters than Ghosts. Thats why they take longer time to get. Just like single Phoenix can counter fleet of Brood Lords, but it doesnt matter. So Ghosts can counter HT, and are lower tech (because they are weaker and more situational), but point of this post is energy balance. I wanted to show that HT should not have Khaydarin Amulet even when other casters have, because they have Warp-In what is basically "free" ~ +25 energy and teleport anyway. amen! that's what i said earlier. a basic energy distribution discrepancy due to reversed production cycle. did they ballance the ridiculous OP warp-in storms with that? then it's two birds with one stone. | ||
|
CurLy[]
United States759 Posts
| ||
|
ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
| ||
|
FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Anyways this nerf just disables that colossi and templars are on the field at the same time. (armys traded, build colossi warp in hts once colossi are finished not doable for a terran that doesn't have the ressources to build vikings and ghosts in the same way) I would go templar zealot immortal anyway, and be happy to steamroll the marauders after i stormed the marines to death (remember chargelots now always hit when charging, so kiting will just kill your marauders and the toss will pull back his zealots to wait for another round of charge). Would just fake the colossi to force some vikings. (you need the support dock anyway for prism speed so why not just waste 200/200 on a colossus to force useless vikings) and yeah dropping storms is so ineffectiv dropping 1 ht at the top of the mineral line opponent sees it speed prism drops the next ht at the botton and all the workers will run into the storm from templar 2 and die in seconds and then the speed prism and the hts are gone already. ghosts can't build up energy by the way because energy about 100 is a doom sentence for a ghost vs hts. While hts can run around with 200 energie with no problem. Think people will still go for colossi storms versus Bio in pvt and it will still look good for toss, even after terrans will manage to split their targeted units the way that colossi only hit one unit. (toss has ways around this) Its just now as hard for the toss to play it as it is for the terran ^^. And everyone wants the game to be hardest, so a good nerf. Still would go for the old school thing 63 start energy and 250 max. PS: I think they won't go back to 75 start energy (or double the cooldown for to 90 seconds) but i think they won't stick with the 50 start energy. | ||
|
rycho
United States360 Posts
On March 02 2011 08:05 alan25 wrote: I saw a Dimaga vs HuK game recently, Dimaga just won a game turning battle with Roach/Hydra 200/200, HuK warps in 6 HT with amulet, the Zerg army was a instantly vaporized and Dimaga just GG and leaves. rofl i watched this game too, you're neglecting the fact that huk goes from even to almost unwinnably behind while he spends all the money it takes to tech to templar | ||
|
oxxo
988 Posts
| ||
|
Stevelisk
5 Posts
I think they should keep the amulet, but increase the cost of storm to 80 or 85. Templars will still serve their function the same way as they currently do, but they will need to be warped at least somewhat prior to engagement. | ||
|
Bluerain
United States348 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:24 Azarkon wrote: Balance isn't the same as homogenize. Part of the charm of SC is that the different sides don't have the exact same gameplay mechanics. I don't think a move towards homogenization for the sake of balance is a good idea, as it takes away from the idea of three distinct sides with different play-styles and makes SC 2 a poorer game for it. At the end of the day, balance isn't the most important aspect of a game. Fun is. Without fun, eSports cannot exist as the games wouldn't sell. There are many RTS games on the market. What makes SC special? For me, at least, it isn't the "balance," but the variety. Mirror matches are by definition balanced. Yet how many people enjoy playing a game with all mirrors? if you dont make a game balanced, then all the finals will become mirror matchups which are less fun and the matchups in general in tournament finals will be less diverse (and less fun to watch/play). also more and more new players who pick up the game are going to shy away for the weaker race and some existing players might even switch leading to a race that is less played so basically it will become PvT...oops i mean it will become a game with 2 races being played most of the time. | ||
|
Vimsey
United Kingdom2235 Posts
On March 02 2011 08:00 tehemperorer wrote: That's exactly why removing the amulet changes the whole tech decision because it is expensive by all arenas to get to that point but it pays off... Without the amulet, the payoff is not worth the cost at all, might as well go colossus. His argument is skewed he is trying to pretend that protoss always have gateways on cooldown when they need them which they dont. Very often you have to wait for the cooldown for the previous warpin before you can warp in defensive units. Yes the build time is back to front but that doesnt mean you can negate it completely when comparing casting units production and readiness. Protoss can make up for this by having more gateways than they need for production later in the game but again thats more cost and build time although it is often done for this very reason. | ||
|
mskaa
Denmark155 Posts
I honestly dont see why blizz is doing this though. Most people go colossus in every matchup now, and the rest probably will after the patch. Investing 1000 gas and idk how many seconds reseaching to get 4 HTs, who then has to wait 40 sec to get 4 storms of(probably warped in during the storm reseach so doesnt really count). Seems like a a LOT compared to the ghost which takes a ghost academy and 150 gas for the ghost to completely shut it down. | ||
|
rickybobby
United States405 Posts
| ||
|
Kazragore
United States369 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:09 Sek-Kuar wrote: There are a lot of players saying that HT takes so long to build - usually people say, that it is something like 45 seconds (Warpgate cooldown) and 5 seconds to warp-in. What is a reson behind this? Cooldown is not active before warp-in, but after it. It is part of (reversed) production cycle of previous unit... And OFC Protoss have to wait for previous production cycle to finish... Just like Terrans have too! And in similar fashion (with just special mechanics) Zergs have too! Saying that cooldown of previous unit is part of production time of current unit is about as ridiculous as saying that it: Takes 90 seconds to build Ghost, because you first have to wait 45 seconds for first Ghost to finish... OR It takes 90 seconds to build Infestor because you first have to wait 40 seconds before you larva inject finishes... Sounds ridiculous right? The only difference here is, that while Barrack is training Ghost, its occupied for 45 seconds and then you get Ghost - while when Warpgate is used to get HT, you get him in 5 seconds and then Warpgate is occupied for 45 seconds. Its reversed production cycle, with switched stages of production, nothing more. Instead of getting HT at the end of production cycle, you get him at the start of production cycle. And cooldown is then finishing part of production cycle of just warped-in unit. Cooldown of warpgates is not something unfair for Protoss race, Protoss just have it in different (and actually better) order. I'm sure this has already been addressed, but I just wanted to give my $.02 ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/KtrTG.jpg) On March 02 2011 04:09 Sek-Kuar wrote: Saying that cooldown of previous unit is part of production time of current unit is about as ridiculous as saying that it: Takes 90 seconds to build Ghost, because you first have to wait 45 seconds for first Ghost to finish... You have to count the cooldown of the previous unit as part of production time, because it is ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/wLQef.jpg) | ||
|
Griefer
Australia171 Posts
Also for all those saying it makes the game bland and mirrored, you're plain wrong. The spells and roles each caster casts in itself are widely different. Protoss are also not meant to be a reactionary race, like the zerg are. Yet zerg need to wait the full 50 secs to get their casters out. Can't quote because I'm on my phone otw to work but some idiot said ghosts should have to research emp as well, completely ignoring the fact they have to research energy. without energy they'd have to wait double the time to cast than what ht do without energy due to the warpgate mechanics the op CLEARLY outlined. Tl;dr Protoss easymoders irrationally whining about having the game slightly harder for them to play, whilst not actually nerfing their race | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On March 02 2011 08:34 rickybobby wrote: people say ghosts 'shut down' HTs but they don't unless the hts are grouped together. Good players spread their hts so even with emps they still have a few storms left which they can roll most bio armies with anyway. I personally think the amulet should be taken out because its op that 6 hts warped in after losing a battle can crush huge armies by themselves, but my point is that ghosts do not make hts obsolete unless the toss is stupid enough to have all the hts in a 1 emp radius. People also forget ghosts can cloak and move ahead, and then emp groups of them or snipe a few with a huge positioning advantage. Snipe is very underused, I've started using ghosts in TvT lately and it's hilarious how fasts a few ghosts annihilate a bio ball with good snipe usage. | ||
|
fenX
France127 Posts
It's a waste of micro to manage your army to stay together with your templars and not leave them behind where they are easily sniped and makes the protoss army even more immobile when using templars. So maybe they should replace KA with an upgrade that increase templars speed instead of just removing it. | ||
|
red_b
United States1267 Posts
On March 02 2011 08:12 oxxo wrote: I can't imagine how anyone can argue that warp-in storm is not overpowered. KA is the one of the best upgrades in the entire game. we dont play Terran. incidentally we dont play the race that wins the most tournaments, especially in Europe, and then complains about how late game is unwinnable Protoss while simultaneously telling zerg players l2p when they say they cant win lategame. maybe that's not you specifically but it;s certainly the trend around here. | ||
|
Protein
United States132 Posts
If you want to "balance" this game, I suggest you take a hard look at the comparisons between gateway units and barracks units (how ONE full upgraded stimmed marine outdps' a stalker, perhaps?) Or maybe the fact that the ghost attacks on it's own, moves faster, is harder to kill in general, has more abilities and doesn't have to research the insta nuke? Hell, since we're equating all casters let's give HTs an ability where they can remain safe (cloak, burrow) and move faster. Let's also be able to build them once the twilight council is out, and let's make it so that storm isn't researched. If all those changes came into play, I wouldn't be bitching about having the amulet removed. If this patch goes through, I guarantee that PvT will be severely imbalanced. I don't understand why the solution to Terran having a hard time sticking with t1 units all game is to nerf protoss t3. It sounds similar to if they decided to nerf the Hydra because Protoss wasn't able to stay on gateway units with immortal support all game. God forbid Terran would have to try higher tier units instead of having a very cheap, mobile army that can harass at any point in the map. | ||
|
Vimsey
United Kingdom2235 Posts
On March 02 2011 08:34 rickybobby wrote: You are allowed to build more than one ghost you know and they can EMP more than once. This change wont change mass army battles that much they will still be able to spread HTs and have storms left. What it will change is warping in units that can immediately do damage for attacking and defending. Which wasnt what I thought most people were complaining about in the last month it was the big battles which you alluded to here as well.people say ghosts 'shut down' HTs but they don't unless the hts are grouped together. Good players spread their hts so even with emps they still have a few storms left which they can roll most bio armies with anyway. I personally think the amulet should be taken out because its op that 6 hts warped in after losing a battle can crush huge armies by themselves, but my point is that ghosts do not make hts obsolete unless the toss is stupid enough to have all the hts in a 1 emp radius. | ||
|
tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
| ||
| ||
