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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 02 2011 06:37 Fubsywubkis wrote:moar dotz!!! hahaha But on a serious note, this thread is getting a bit out of hand, 'eh? In the end, I think it kinda sucks that it's getting taken out, but I guess we'll just have to learn how to cope with it, and only use Colossus from now on...until they go mass Viking. Then what?
then you do what Day9 says never to do. trick em. hallucinate HTs and scare him away ;P
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On March 02 2011 06:37 Kralic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 06:29 tehemperorer wrote:
What I stated is a fact, and it had more to do with timing and efficiency in the Terrans favor than anything else. I am glad Terran drops are in the game; don't touch them. The point about the 1/1/1 assumed that Terrans get more than 1 barracks per game and therefore have more access to barracks units than looking at 1/1/1 and literally interpreting it as 1 barracks/1fact/1port per game. No I was going off the assumption that by saying they got to drop sooner meant that they rushed for a dropship and immediatley went to drop you base. If you mean they can start producing their drop ships earlier ramping up for a drop after they take their second or third base. While producing a lot of barracks units to abuse the easy drop mechanic Protoss cannot stop unless they use more supply and resources than the Terran put into the drop. You should have all the tech structures you need and have warp prisms of your own. Dropping is a harrasment and having more warp gates makes your warp prism that much better of a "drop" harrasment then Terran dropships. How does this factor in with the amulet? Warp in two templar put them in said warp prism go to the Terran base, drop them storm and warp in a butt load of units? It works off the same idea that BW storm drops were except without the ease of warping in a sizeable army at the same time.
Because of the simple fact that if I went High Templar, I don't have earlier access to the robo facility that would allow me to drop. The Terran drop is on 1 basic tech tree, the protoss drop is on two, and more expensive blah blah blah.
Your last paragraph makes you sound like you want me to have a ton of supply lying around, with 10-15 gates on 2 bases, and warp in 10-15 units under 1 warp prism to be effective, and then not expect them to all die because I can elevator them 1 by 1 out of the fight when your response to the drop comes.
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i know this has been posted a few times, but i just want to post my agreement that the logic in the op is sort of ridiculous.
even if your argument made sense (which it doesn't), it doesn't matter if the casters are "balanced" with each other; it doesn't matter even a little bit. its completely meaningless when it comes to overall game balance because each race has very different macro mechanics and unit compositions and costs.
that said, should we add a 20 second period after building a stalker where it can't shoot? this would balance it a little more with the marauder and roach, in fact it might even be better because it can be warped in anywhere!
anyway, past this point you do start to talk about the overall game. to me, a spell or mechanic being overpowered means that it imbalances a matchup. for this to be so overpowered that it needs to be completely removed from the game, logically you have to believe that pvt is unfair in favor of the protoss. personally i don't think this is at all the case, in fact generally tournament and pro-level games would say the opposite (this may change on bigger maps, but we have yet to see).
if you don't think pvt is imbalanced (i think most people here despite how irrational they tend to be would agree that its pretty fair) then there has to be some sort of compensation for this. colossus aren't a long-term solution obviously, and protoss can't sit on gateway units and immortals forever. perhaps they should make storm come with the unit? emp does come with ghosts after all, and fungal with infestors. this would make 2-base HT a pretty viable alternative to 2-base colossus, without the warp in storm defense "problem" that terran players seem not to like.
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On March 02 2011 06:41 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 06:36 Rob28 wrote:On March 02 2011 06:30 Everlong wrote:On March 02 2011 06:24 Rob28 wrote:On March 02 2011 06:17 Everlong wrote:On March 02 2011 06:10 Rob28 wrote:On March 02 2011 05:59 Everlong wrote:On March 02 2011 05:55 Rob28 wrote:On March 02 2011 05:51 Everlong wrote:
Protoss player always has access to more storms (and faster) then Terran player to EMPs. The issue here is not Ghost vs HT. The problem here is the access to storm. If you want to compare pure EMP and Storm, well, we can discuss that. WHAT!?! This is so flawed, I can't even.... Elaborate or don't post at all.. You just discredite my post without even suggesting something.. I suppose we are talking late-game 20-30 mins.. Of course EMP is lower in tech tree, but that is not the reason they are removing the amulet from the game. Ok, how in the hell do protoss have faster access to storms? Because they can warp in HT? Because in order for that to work, you need to take all the time it takes to research storm, then all the time to research amulet, plus you gotta research warpgates, and then build enough gates to bring in significant amount of HT. Plus it takes 5 seconds to warp in. Then you storm, and have to wait 4 seconds to storm again because they don't stack the way EMP does. To kill a whole mineral line, you'll need at least 3 storms, so that's 8 seconds added right there if storms are cast adjacently to account for SCV movements. Also, you need to build some form of warp-in. That's neither free, easy, nor fast. I bet a ghost builds faster than it takes to complete 2 research techs and build a proxy pylon First of all, calm down. Secondly, I'm not talking about sniping mineral line or mid game, where you have your first set of templars on the field. We are discussing the removal of the amulet. I suppose we are talking about late game, where it clearly is an issue and all those things you mentioned are marginal or basically already done. Don't tell me Protoss needs to research warpgates in order to warp-in as an argument, how hard it is to get several HTs in 30 minute mark.. About as hard as it would be for terran to make the equivalent number of ghosts... which hard counter HT any time any place. If you want to contribute to this thread somehow, get your facts straight man.. Its really annoying to try to have a serious discussion where you throw random stuff at me without any serious background.. You wont get anywhere trying to match storms with ghosts later in the game.. Are you going to fly your rax with your army and when the fight starts you land them, build tech labs and wait for ghost to pop out? No, as I mentioned before, even the most novice of players will have ghosts on hand in a PvT matchup. Why do you assume nobody uses or has ghosts? EMP does more damage to a protoss deathball than storm ever will to anything. A sane player knows this. Being caught without ghosts as terran vs toss is nothing more than a grave error on your part, and earns no sypathy. My beef is with that fact that the terran caster is retardly > than the main protoss caster. Crippling HT by removing amulet worsens the situation. If you don't take advantage of that, then you sir, are foolish. I'm sorry, but you fail to understeand the reason they are removing the Amulet. It's not because Storm is better then EMP. If you ask me, it comes down to micro as for Storm vs EMP.
My point is that the micro that the amulet provides is the ONLY advantage HT have over anything. Removal of amulet = crippled micro. Useless caster = imba protoss.
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On March 02 2011 06:41 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 06:37 Kralic wrote:On March 02 2011 06:29 tehemperorer wrote:
What I stated is a fact, and it had more to do with timing and efficiency in the Terrans favor than anything else. I am glad Terran drops are in the game; don't touch them. The point about the 1/1/1 assumed that Terrans get more than 1 barracks per game and therefore have more access to barracks units than looking at 1/1/1 and literally interpreting it as 1 barracks/1fact/1port per game. No I was going off the assumption that by saying they got to drop sooner meant that they rushed for a dropship and immediatley went to drop you base. If you mean they can start producing their drop ships earlier ramping up for a drop after they take their second or third base. While producing a lot of barracks units to abuse the easy drop mechanic Protoss cannot stop unless they use more supply and resources than the Terran put into the drop. You should have all the tech structures you need and have warp prisms of your own. Dropping is a harrasment and having more warp gates makes your warp prism that much better of a "drop" harrasment then Terran dropships. How does this factor in with the amulet? Warp in two templar put them in said warp prism go to the Terran base, drop them storm and warp in a butt load of units? It works off the same idea that BW storm drops were except without the ease of warping in a sizeable army at the same time. Because of the simple fact that if I went High Templar, I don't have earlier access to the robo facility that would allow me to drop. The Terran drop is on 1 basic tech tree, the protoss drop is on two, and more expensive blah blah blah. Your last paragraph makes you sound like you want me to have a ton of supply lying around, with 10-15 gates on 2 bases, and warp in 10-15 units under 1 warp prism to be effective, and then not expect them to all die because I can elevator them 1 by 1 out of the fight when your response to the drop comes.
No 5-6 gates on two bases seems reasonable, you can keep up the pressure by using chrono on the gateways and reinforcing the drop while you take a page out of evil Terran's book and use your main army to take out an expansion or assault the front while his attention is on the drop.
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On March 02 2011 06:28 DragonDefonce wrote:
I'll just explain why the amulet change is bullshit in PvT in a mid late game scenario. I'll let PvZ go because I think that match up is too early to call either way. Feel free to refute any point, but don't be like "oh well you shouldn't let it get to that point". I am assuming mid late game in a more or less equal standing, by similar yet competent players. Also, sorry if someone posted same points earlier, but I'm not gonna read 10 pages of discussion.
Facts:
1. Protoss basic units(zealot, stalker, sentry) get raped by M&M
2. Colossus and HT are powerful enough to make this an even fight, even with Terran's respective special units.
3. In the absence of special units, by fact 1, Protoss will lose to Terran once the game gets in mid/late stage in comparable economic/tech standing, and assuming both players are competent and have similar skill level.
4. Approximately 7 Vikings kill a colossus in 2 volleys, in reasonable upgrade differential.
5. 7 Vikings = 1050/525, 1 Colossus 300/200.
6.Because of 4 and 5, Colossus become less effective as the game drags on and thus Protoss relies on HT more. This is the current trend in most high level games.
7. Storm is a DoT and does less damage even when full damage is taken than the amount of shield that EMP takes away for most units.
8. Feedback is a targeting skill while EMP is an aoe, and thus, much harder to use. This is compounded by the fact that ghosts are extremely small and can cloak, thus not only harder to click on, but also harder to spot in the middle of large bionic army, and leaves room for cloaked emp.
9. Therefore, it can be argued that Terran has a very easy and effective methods of eliminating Protoss special units(colossus, ht, sentry too i guess), while protoss does not have easy way of killing the ghost, although they have reasonably effective way to disable the medivac and the raven.
10. Because of 1, in order for Protoss to be able to overcome 9 is to have quickly renewable source of either colossus or high templar that can cast storm, probably in the middle of the fight as either can be very quickly taken out or disabled early in the battle or before the battle even starts.
11. Colossus are not very easily replaceable.
12. Removing amulet makes resupplying high templar with enough mana to cast storm difficult.
13. If 1,9, and 12 are true, then all terran has to do is come out even in a fight, and attack again as soon as the reinforcement arrive.
14. Amulet upgrade would supply storm to be used so that 13 does not happen.
Thus, removing the Amulet breaks balance.
Logical, well argued
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On March 02 2011 04:25 tehemperorer wrote:
Logic is flawed, OP. HT are instantly countered by ghosts. 1 EMP makes every HT lose shields and not be able to cast storm for 2 minutes and 13 seconds. If you were protoss and chose the HT tech path, you are shit out of luck. If Terran attacks in that 2 min 13 seconds, you will lose without the amulet. What's the solution? Go colossus. What does Terran do? Blindly build reactored vikings before you even have a robo facility. They can mass the cheap vikings before you even have 1 colossus, before range, and without scouting or scanning. It makes the PvT metagame so predictable for both sides, except the Terran have it better in viking/MMM because of mineral advantage and the ease of massing their units.
Because it is that simple.
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On March 02 2011 04:15 Ahelvin wrote:
Interesting reading. At first I thought removing the amulet was a terrible idea (even if I'm not playing protoss), but thanks to your post I can see the logic behind it.
you should also take into concideration how much more expensive it is to go High templar with storm + KA then it is to get ghost or infestors.
High templar is a tier 3 unit, infestor is a tier 2 unit and ghost is somewhat inbetween 1 and 2, should they be equall when you concider the cost to get them? no ofc not..
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On March 02 2011 06:41 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 06:36 Rob28 wrote:On March 02 2011 06:30 Everlong wrote:On March 02 2011 06:24 Rob28 wrote:On March 02 2011 06:17 Everlong wrote:On March 02 2011 06:10 Rob28 wrote:On March 02 2011 05:59 Everlong wrote:On March 02 2011 05:55 Rob28 wrote:On March 02 2011 05:51 Everlong wrote:
Protoss player always has access to more storms (and faster) then Terran player to EMPs. The issue here is not Ghost vs HT. The problem here is the access to storm. If you want to compare pure EMP and Storm, well, we can discuss that. WHAT!?! This is so flawed, I can't even.... Elaborate or don't post at all.. You just discredite my post without even suggesting something.. I suppose we are talking late-game 20-30 mins.. Of course EMP is lower in tech tree, but that is not the reason they are removing the amulet from the game. Ok, how in the hell do protoss have faster access to storms? Because they can warp in HT? Because in order for that to work, you need to take all the time it takes to research storm, then all the time to research amulet, plus you gotta research warpgates, and then build enough gates to bring in significant amount of HT. Plus it takes 5 seconds to warp in. Then you storm, and have to wait 4 seconds to storm again because they don't stack the way EMP does. To kill a whole mineral line, you'll need at least 3 storms, so that's 8 seconds added right there if storms are cast adjacently to account for SCV movements. Also, you need to build some form of warp-in. That's neither free, easy, nor fast. I bet a ghost builds faster than it takes to complete 2 research techs and build a proxy pylon First of all, calm down. Secondly, I'm not talking about sniping mineral line or mid game, where you have your first set of templars on the field. We are discussing the removal of the amulet. I suppose we are talking about late game, where it clearly is an issue and all those things you mentioned are marginal or basically already done. Don't tell me Protoss needs to research warpgates in order to warp-in as an argument, how hard it is to get several HTs in 30 minute mark.. About as hard as it would be for terran to make the equivalent number of ghosts... which hard counter HT any time any place. If you want to contribute to this thread somehow, get your facts straight man.. Its really annoying to try to have a serious discussion where you throw random stuff at me without any serious background.. You wont get anywhere trying to match storms with ghosts later in the game.. Are you going to fly your rax with your army and when the fight starts you land them, build tech labs and wait for ghost to pop out? No, as I mentioned before, even the most novice of players will have ghosts on hand in a PvT matchup. Why do you assume nobody uses or has ghosts? EMP does more damage to a protoss deathball than storm ever will to anything. A sane player knows this. Being caught without ghosts as terran vs toss is nothing more than a grave error on your part, and earns no sypathy. My beef is with that fact that the terran caster is retardly > than the main protoss caster. Crippling HT by removing amulet worsens the situation. If you don't take advantage of that, then you sir, are foolish. I'm sorry, but you fail to understeand the reason they are removing the Amulet. It's not because Storm is better then EMP. If you ask me, it comes down to micro as for Storm vs EMP.
everlong i agree with you on this one. but just stop arguing with him. it isnt worth it. his responses dont even make sense, or adress the conversation at all.
although i think taking away the amulet completely is overkill, just needed a little nerf. liike 65 mana start or soemthing
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I think removing Amulet was the wrong decision. A change to Storm, some kind of combination of a cast delay/range/damage/radius nerf would have been the better move for changing Templar IMO.
As it stands, teching to Templar already leaves you much more open to timing attacks than Collosi due to the longer research time and heavier gas investment. Now without the ability to reinforce with active Templar, I just don't see a reason to choose Templar tech over Collosi. The time needed to get the Templar, and now reinforce with them, is just too long and will leave a Gateway army too fragile for too long. And the buffer core units from both sides (Roach/Marauder) could already absorb and dodge storm damage reasonably well, especially with regenerative help (Claws/Burrow and Medivacs)
It feels like this change makes Templar a complete all-in decision. If you tech to them, get 4-5 to move out and dont win on the first shot, you're done. You won't be able to reinforce with the AoE a Gateway army needs to stand up to Roach/Marauder reinforcements.
Not to mention a Collosus army was already a better choice from a mobility/positioning standpoint. I just don't get this change at all.
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Whoever suggested that protoss gets observers to spot for drops should realize that is absurd.
Terrans can build sensor towers, which give much greater vision, and does not cost food. Vikings are always going to be used no matter that build you are going with as terran, and it is much easier to pump out vikings than it is pheonix.
Zerg has overlords, which mean they should be spotting with them preemptively to begin with. Overlords are also part of any zerg game due to their use for food.
Observers cost food, as opposed to the other two methods of spotting, and getting more observers means weakening your army, as opposed to terrans, where vikings would only add to your army, and zerg, where overlords are needed to begin with.
Because of the points above, it's pretty obvious that protoss are at a disadvantage in terms of spotting drops.
You can argue that pheonix would fill the same role as vikings. Pheonix move faster and can shoot while moving. Vikings, however, outrange pheonix, and can simply stay with the mmm ball, which means you cannot snipe anything with pheonixes without giving the terran a cost effective deal. Vikings are used against all 3 tech trees of protoss. Colosi and stargate play are both shut down by vikings, and vikings could be used for spotting against templar play. Pheonix simply cannot do the same.
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i'm really worried about the state of pvt if this goes live. i'm not going to say that high templars will be completely nonviable as i haven't tried the game much without the upgrade, but it does worry me that vikings completely wreck all the high tech tier options protoss have that aren't high templar. this might not be as scary if something like colossus => void ray or colossus => carrier were possibilities, but basically terran can sit there on their barracks and reactored starport, drop a few times, scan a few times, and as soon as they see you tech to anything immediately make two vikings. it isn't possible to outproduce this or counter this, the fact is that you will just have to stop colossus (or carrier, mothership, void ray) production immediately.
it is possible that high templar will still be a viable (if not forced) transition, but if it isn't, or if terran have an advantage at that stage in the game, i don't think the matchup will be anywhere close to fair.
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Lower the gas cost of high templar by 50 gas and I'm cool with this change.
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On March 02 2011 06:45 ibreakurface wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:25 tehemperorer wrote:
Logic is flawed, OP. HT are instantly countered by ghosts. 1 EMP makes every HT lose shields and not be able to cast storm for 2 minutes and 13 seconds. If you were protoss and chose the HT tech path, you are shit out of luck. If Terran attacks in that 2 min 13 seconds, you will lose without the amulet. What's the solution? Go colossus. What does Terran do? Blindly build reactored vikings before you even have a robo facility. They can mass the cheap vikings before you even have 1 colossus, before range, and without scouting or scanning. It makes the PvT metagame so predictable for both sides, except the Terran have it better in viking/MMM because of mineral advantage and the ease of massing their units. Because it is that simple.
It's not simple, that was a general prediction of what happens when the amulet is removed. It is beyond complex, where discussions that involve what people want to see in a televised match come in to play.
If storm is OP, remove storm. If the gripe is warpstorming, what's to prevent me from using HT that have energy and dropping and doing the same thing? The WP is there in both cases, and the result is the same. If the problem is that it is hard to respond to and too damaging, then why are blueflame drops in the game, where hellions chase down running probes and kill them in droves? The same is available in the same exact game where warpstorms happen. Removing the amulet upgrade is not the solution, since the problem seems to stem from storm itself and not the amulet.
I don't want the amulet removed because it reduces my ability to defend greatly if and when I go HT in PvT. Reinforcing to try and hold an engagement becomes impossible, since gateway units alone are capable of reinforcing en masse and yet do not do well against Terran bio. Without Amulet, no amount of reinforcements will help, so once you've lost a fight to Terran, it will snowball downhill from there.
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Sorry but
If - and only IF - Terran has non-occupied Barrack, he can produce Ghost - and it will take 45 seconds.
If - and only IF - Zerg has free larva, he can produce Infestor - and it will take 50 seconds.
If - and only IF - Protoss has non-occupied Warpgate, he can produce HT - and it will take 5 seconds. (After build time of 5 seconds, Warpgate will remain occupied for 45 seconds)
All of these require tech which you have neglected by your untrue iff statement.
I think the current situation is fair as it allows maps to overcome imbalances.
The only thing I would argue should be made is allowing gateway units to be played more strategically against rax units; that is allowing the protoss to tech while allowing him to produce sufficient and adequately upgraded warpgate units.
What this means IMO is to reduce the research time of some abilities such as zealot charge or blink, to allow earlier tech for a more strategic approach to hard-headed terran marauder army. Other than the IMO the game is balanced enough that properly made, and tested maps (like 25% of the current BW PL/Starleague maps) are sufficient to maintain the balance of all matchups with respect to all skill levels. (Many maps are considered balanced at higher level of play, but completely are roflcopter maps when you go into gold/silver league with them)
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On March 02 2011 06:43 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 06:41 Everlong wrote:On March 02 2011 06:36 Rob28 wrote:On March 02 2011 06:30 Everlong wrote:On March 02 2011 06:24 Rob28 wrote:On March 02 2011 06:17 Everlong wrote:On March 02 2011 06:10 Rob28 wrote:On March 02 2011 05:59 Everlong wrote:On March 02 2011 05:55 Rob28 wrote:On March 02 2011 05:51 Everlong wrote:
Protoss player always has access to more storms (and faster) then Terran player to EMPs. The issue here is not Ghost vs HT. The problem here is the access to storm. If you want to compare pure EMP and Storm, well, we can discuss that. WHAT!?! This is so flawed, I can't even.... Elaborate or don't post at all.. You just discredite my post without even suggesting something.. I suppose we are talking late-game 20-30 mins.. Of course EMP is lower in tech tree, but that is not the reason they are removing the amulet from the game. Ok, how in the hell do protoss have faster access to storms? Because they can warp in HT? Because in order for that to work, you need to take all the time it takes to research storm, then all the time to research amulet, plus you gotta research warpgates, and then build enough gates to bring in significant amount of HT. Plus it takes 5 seconds to warp in. Then you storm, and have to wait 4 seconds to storm again because they don't stack the way EMP does. To kill a whole mineral line, you'll need at least 3 storms, so that's 8 seconds added right there if storms are cast adjacently to account for SCV movements. Also, you need to build some form of warp-in. That's neither free, easy, nor fast. I bet a ghost builds faster than it takes to complete 2 research techs and build a proxy pylon First of all, calm down. Secondly, I'm not talking about sniping mineral line or mid game, where you have your first set of templars on the field. We are discussing the removal of the amulet. I suppose we are talking about late game, where it clearly is an issue and all those things you mentioned are marginal or basically already done. Don't tell me Protoss needs to research warpgates in order to warp-in as an argument, how hard it is to get several HTs in 30 minute mark.. About as hard as it would be for terran to make the equivalent number of ghosts... which hard counter HT any time any place. If you want to contribute to this thread somehow, get your facts straight man.. Its really annoying to try to have a serious discussion where you throw random stuff at me without any serious background.. You wont get anywhere trying to match storms with ghosts later in the game.. Are you going to fly your rax with your army and when the fight starts you land them, build tech labs and wait for ghost to pop out? No, as I mentioned before, even the most novice of players will have ghosts on hand in a PvT matchup. Why do you assume nobody uses or has ghosts? EMP does more damage to a protoss deathball than storm ever will to anything. A sane player knows this. Being caught without ghosts as terran vs toss is nothing more than a grave error on your part, and earns no sypathy. My beef is with that fact that the terran caster is retardly > than the main protoss caster. Crippling HT by removing amulet worsens the situation. If you don't take advantage of that, then you sir, are foolish. I'm sorry, but you fail to understeand the reason they are removing the Amulet. It's not because Storm is better then EMP. If you ask me, it comes down to micro as for Storm vs EMP. My point is that the micro that the amulet provides is the ONLY advantage HT have over anything. Removal of amulet = crippled micro. Useless caster = imba protoss.
What Amulet gives you is a reliable way, how to deliver guaranteed damage instantly. This is by far superior to EMP in terms of flexibility. Once more, don't compare Storm vs EMP as spells. I don't think we can come to any kind of agreement, so I'll end our discussion here.
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Why does everyone keep insisting that Ghosts are in the same category as HTs? I believe ghost is a support unit not a caster. It has a regular attack and isn't 100% useless without energy. While on the other hand HTs can't attack without Energy. (Archons don't count, because thats an entirely different unit) Honestly there are only 3 "Casters" in Starcraft 2 Ravens, High Templar, and Infestors, they are called casters because they do not have a regular attack and need to be babied.
Ghosts can be compared more to sentries which are support units with abilities, Zerg's would be the Queen, The game is "balanced" in the sense every race has a support unit with abilities and A caster that doesn't attack and just uses energy as a weapon/support.
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On March 02 2011 06:51 rycho wrote:
i'm really worried about the state of pvt if this goes live. i'm not going to say that high templars will be completely nonviable as i haven't tried the game much without the upgrade, but it does worry me that vikings completely wreck all the high tech tier options protoss have that aren't high templar. this might not be as scary if something like colossus => void ray or colossus => carrier were possibilities, but basically terran can sit there on their barracks and reactored starport, drop a few times, scan a few times, and as soon as they see you tech to anything immediately make two vikings. it isn't possible to outproduce this or counter this, the fact is that you will just have to stop colossus (or carrier, mothership, void ray) production immediately.
it is possible that high templar will still be a viable (if not forced) transition, but if it isn't, or if terran have an advantage at that stage in the game, i don't think the matchup will be anywhere close to fair.
well maybe this all comes down to the fact that all the DPS from Toss comes from air, which is killed by vikings. maybe if voidswere changed from armored to normal, they'd take less air damage, and would be more viable option against Vikings.
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What about Gateway High Templar having the Amulet in effect and Warpgated Templar needing to wait for their energy to rise? Make the buildtime 20 secs or so, and it might actually be a good thing?
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On March 02 2011 06:46 [MLG]GCA wrote:
I think removing Amulet was the wrong decision. A change to Storm, some kind of combination of a cast delay/range/damage/radius nerf would have been the better move for changing Templar IMO.
As it stands, teching to Templar already leaves you much more open to timing attacks than Collosi due to the longer research time and heavier gas investment. Now without the ability to reinforce with active Templar, I just don't see a reason to choose Templar tech over Collosi. The time needed to get the Templar, and now reinforce with them, is just too long and will leave a Gateway army too fragile for too long. And the buffer core units from both sides (Roach/Marauder) could already absorb and dodge storm damage reasonably well, especially with regenerative help (Claws/Burrow and Medivacs)
It feels like this change makes Templar a complete all-in decision. If you tech to them, get 4-5 to move out and dont win on the first shot, you're done. You won't be able to reinforce with the AoE a Gateway army needs to stand up to Roach/Marauder reinforcements.
Not to mention a Collosus army was already a better choice from a mobility/positioning standpoint. I just don't get this change at all.
Very well stated. Very accurate as well. Now my question is, is this change, given the effects you stated, something that Blizzard wants to make in the PvT matchup?
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EPT
