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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
While your preparation times are pretty clever, I feel you are missing a huge main idea behind balance: Units are not balanced against one another and shouldnt be. Not every caster is equal and not every caster should be equal or do the same thing or have the same production time.
Protoss has a much greater need for the AoE given their general lack of efficiency and lower unit counts. The only time a protoss army is truly efficient is when it is together. If you start peeling off or having to keep units sitting around and not fighting, the efficiency is gone and its barely feasible to even survive a fight, let alone win. Is a terran octo-droppping during an engagement gonna miss those 8 marines and a medivac? No... it doesnt weaken their force in the same way it does for me to have to leave units behind to defend it. Is doing a ling runby going to be the difference between winning or losing a fight? No....
A big problem is... alot of this doesn't apply at the lower levels. Lower level terrans dont do this constant non-stop aggression from multiple angles that can still overrun storm players. They don't know how. When you start playing Masters above the ~3k-3500 level as protoss you get a glimpse as to the efficiency of bio. With or without amulet, a good terran can overrun an equal skilled protoss by using proper tactics and constant pressure. To be honest, the odds of even making it to storm safely is very low against a good terran player.. this is why you almost never see high level games get to this point. When they do get this point, terran often are still able to win as well. Take examples like from Day9s recent daily covering intotherainbows mass marine game or even how bad Jinro demolished Socke last year at MLG. They won by efficiency and beat players that safely got to storm. They overwhelmed their opponents, baited storms and created a scenario to win. The Rainbow example was especially amazing as he didn't even add ghosts until the very end of the game when he was already firmly in control. He just used mass marines... beating storm... making it look easy.
I think alot of GOOD terrans that complain about storm are losing because they're outclassed by their opponent and not because of imbalance. They feel that they are equal and wonder why they lose, but never consider the fact that sometimes your opponent just outplays you.
I am of the school of thought that Warp-in + storms is too powerful in its current state and needs to be slightly nerfed. I think removing the amulet upgrade might be the right thing to do, but doing so creates some glaring deficiencies. I agree with Jinro's assessment that casters should just start at 63 energy.
Whether or not its game breaking to take it out completely with no buff to all casters starting energy is unknown to me. What I do know is that a simple analysis of how long it takes each caster to get to 75 energy with or without upgrades is completely the wrong angle. Protoss has a greater need for HT because of how the game is setup. Comparing the caster units to one another just neglects the overarching balance of the game... the idea that protoss has more of a reliance on AoE compared to the other races.
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Is the 49.5 seconds for HT to have storm (without amulet) just 5 seconds for production time and 44.5 seconds for energy buildup? Why is gateway cooldown not factored in? How about the time for 2 HT to have storm compared to 2 ghosts having EMP?
People say storm drops are OP.. but then there's baneling drops or blue flame hellions that also devastate mineral lines. It's gonna be ridiculously hard to deal with drops without amulet now, since gateway units are so weak against Terran bio.
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if anyone thinks this has to do with storm dropping they are really colossally mistaken. storm dropping is actually one of the least effective ways to kill workers, as you just run your workers away one time and the storm is gone. compared to blue hellions, lings, blings, dts, banshees or even upgraded zealots its a fairly poor tactic for harassing a mineral line. blizzard may make some poor decisions but i don't think they are blind enough to actually think storm dropping is some sort of imbalanced tactic in the current game.
this change has to do with the defensive capability of high templar versus terran.
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On March 02 2011 06:54 ToastieNL wrote:
What about Gateway High Templar having the Amulet in effect and Warpgated Templar needing to wait for their energy to rise? Make the buildtime 20 secs or so, and it might actually be a good thing?
this is actually a way smarter idea (than a complete removal), cause it would still keep HT a good defense while cutting their offensiv power (which i thought was the reason for imbalance)
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On March 02 2011 07:04 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 06:54 ToastieNL wrote:
What about Gateway High Templar having the Amulet in effect and Warpgated Templar needing to wait for their energy to rise? Make the buildtime 20 secs or so, and it might actually be a good thing? this is actually a way smarter idea.
This seems sexy, but technically flawed..
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On March 02 2011 06:58 thesauceishot wrote:
Is the 49.5 seconds for HT to have storm (without amulet) just 5 seconds for production time and 44.5 seconds for energy buildup? Why is gateway cooldown not factored in? How about the time for 2 HT to have storm compared to 2 ghosts having EMP?
People say storm drops are OP.. but then there's baneling drops or blue flame hellions that also devastate mineral lines. It's gonna be ridiculously hard to deal with drops without amulet now, since gateway units are so weak against Terran bio.
Its always same:
It takes 49,5 sec to get HT with 75 energy compared to 45 for Ghost, and 94,5 for 2 HT compared to 90 for 2 Ghost. With 1 Gate vs 1 Rax HT are always 4,5 sec behind with Storm, OFC having positional advantage and also much earlier Feedback.
Production rate of HT and Ghost is same, HT just have longer time to gain energy because of 40 sec faster build time, so w/o amulet its basically equal.
And cooldown is not factored because thats production cycle of previous unit, just like Terran can not get Ghost if he is building Marauder or Reaper.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
I think it's pretty clear that the main problem that blizzard is trying to address is warp-in storms.
I'm not sure khaydarin removal is the way to do this. I think ideally Khaydarin should increase energy, but maybe not to enough to storm... maybe leave it like 5 short so protoss has to wait a few seconds to storm after warping in.
The problem is right now, late game protoss splash is ridiculously cost-effective, flexible, and can warp in everywhere. You may say "oh well just counter it with ghosts" but ghosts are more expensive than HTs, take more time, and can't kill anything, just remove shields and energy, and compete with the vital Marauder for Tech Lab Rax room. Templar can just spread out and storm earlier to avoid getting EMPed... instead of trying to feedback the ghosts, just storm.
Storm crushes everything terran can bring to the table except like Thors and Battlecruisers... and high templars build out of Warp Gates. Late game, as a Terran player, you can't just beat the Protoss in the fight, you have to beat him SO BADLY that you have SO much extra units that you can just go in and kill him even though he instantly warps in HT to crush whats left of your army.
The Khaydarin Amulet is why so many Terran stick to 1-base all-ins or rushing out a harass or high tech unit and pushing fast. With it removed it'll be reasonable for Terran to actually Macro and try to go into the lategame TvP. As it stands, you can only win a lategame TvP using the standard bio build if you go in with a HUGE advantage... otherwise Khayadrin will beat you.
It shouldn't be removed though... maybe just like give +20 instead of +25 energy so protoss can't like warp in reinforcement HTs and crush a victorious army with minimal effort.
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This is what will happen in a PvT engagement if this goes live in P's point of view:
He's going Bio, I'll warp-in my HTs now to gain energy for storms....
Engagement!
I get a few storms out and he EMPs the rest of the HTs..
ok, an evenly matched fight..
his reinforcements are coming..
I need to warp in my reinforcements too..
I can't warp-in HTs in the battlefield because they will do nothing and just die..
I can't warp-in HTs in my base because not only does it do nothing, but I need the warp-ins for units that actually do something..
but the other units I can warp-in will just get rolled by T bio..
no choice then, GG.
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On March 02 2011 07:07 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Its always same:
It takes 49,5 sec to get HT with 75 energy compared to 45 for Ghost, and 94,5 for 2 HT compared to 90 for 2 Ghost. With 1 Gate vs 1 Rax HT are always 4,5 sec behind with Storm, OFC having positional advantage and also much earlier Feedback.
Production rate of HT and Ghost is same, HT just have longer time to gain energy because of 40 sec faster build time, so w/o amulet its basically equal.
And cooldown is not factored because thats production cycle of previous unit, just like Terran can not get Ghost if he is building Marauder or Reaper.
yeah but you disregard the fact, that one ghost can take out multiple HTs
and also that T has earlier access to ghost to:
a) gather more energy for multiple EMPs
b) get more ghosts
c) get cloak
which instantly shift the "production balance"
your logic makes only sense if they would start to build those spellcasters at the same time, which obviously not the same in reality due to the techtree.
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On March 02 2011 07:10 rXs wrote:
This is what will happen in a PvT engagement if this goes live in P's point of view:
He's going Bio, I'll warp-in my HTs now to gain energy for storms....
Engagement!
I get a few storms out and he EMPs the rest of the HTs..
ok, an evenly matched fight..
his reinforcements are coming..
I need to warp in my reinforcements too..
I can't warp-in HTs in the battlefield because they will do nothing and just die..
I can't warp-in HTs in my base because not only does it do nothing, but I need the warp-ins for units that actually do something..
but the other units I can warp-in will just get rolled by T bio..
no choice then, GG.
Never comes to that actually.
Instead it goes 1 of 2 ways:
1. Protoss goes HT. Terran player pushes as the Protoss has invested a ridiculous amount of gas into a useless unit and rolls over the weakened gateway army. GG.
2. Toss ignores HT, Terran knowing this is likely blindly goes mass viking.
All protoss units besides the incredibly weak stalker and the overly situational phoenix are countered by vikings. GG.
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On March 02 2011 07:16 cLutZ wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 02 2011 07:10 rXs wrote:
This is what will happen in a PvT engagement if this goes live in P's point of view:
He's going Bio, I'll warp-in my HTs now to gain energy for storms....
Engagement!
I get a few storms out and he EMPs the rest of the HTs..
ok, an evenly matched fight..
his reinforcements are coming..
I need to warp in my reinforcements too..
I can't warp-in HTs in the battlefield because they will do nothing and just die..
I can't warp-in HTs in my base because not only does it do nothing, but I need the warp-ins for units that actually do something..
but the other units I can warp-in will just get rolled by T bio..
no choice then, GG. Never comes to that actually. Instead it goes 1 of 2 ways: 1. Protoss goes HT. Terran player pushes as the Protoss has invested a ridiculous amount of gas into a useless unit and rolls over the weakened gateway army. GG. 2. Toss ignores HT, Terran knowing this is likely blindly goes mass viking. All protoss units besides the incredibly weak stalker and the overly situational phoenix are countered by vikings. GG.
yeah, that too...
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On March 02 2011 07:12 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 07:07 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Its always same:
It takes 49,5 sec to get HT with 75 energy compared to 45 for Ghost, and 94,5 for 2 HT compared to 90 for 2 Ghost. With 1 Gate vs 1 Rax HT are always 4,5 sec behind with Storm, OFC having positional advantage and also much earlier Feedback.
Production rate of HT and Ghost is same, HT just have longer time to gain energy because of 40 sec faster build time, so w/o amulet its basically equal.
And cooldown is not factored because thats production cycle of previous unit, just like Terran can not get Ghost if he is building Marauder or Reaper. yeah but you disregard the fact, that one ghost can take out multiple HTs and also that T has earlier access to ghost to: a) gather more energy for multiple EMPs b) get more ghosts c) get cloak which instantly shift the "production balance" your logic makes only sense if they would start to build those spellcasters at the same time, which obviously not the same in reality due to the techtree.
Well you are right, in 90% of games Terran will react with Ghosts against Protoss building HT
I dont want to theorycraft (and IMO you shouldnt either), so Ill say just this:
HT are generally stronger casters than Ghosts. Thats why they take longer time to get. Just like single Phoenix can counter fleet of Brood Lords, but it doesnt matter.
So Ghosts can counter HT, and are lower tech (because they are weaker and more situational), but point of this post is energy balance.
I wanted to show that HT should not have Khaydarin Amulet even when other casters have, because they have Warp-In what is basically "free" ~ +25 energy and teleport anyway.
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very nice article i enjoyed reading and got me thinking that maybe blizzard should try some increased energy upgrades instead of the increased energy upon spawn so that more focus would be on keeping the spell caster alive just a thought. i agree the amulet is too powerful with wrap in storms but i believe without it protoss are going to have to turtle until they have energy so this is why i suggest the energy increase rate not just with HTs but with infestors and ghosts helping spellcasters remain a great unit to get without being wrap in storms 
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On March 02 2011 07:21 Stallion wrote:very nice article i enjoyed reading and got me thinking that maybe blizzard should try some increased energy upgrades instead of the increased energy upon spawn so that more focus would be on keeping the spell caster alive just a thought. i agree the amulet is too powerful with wrap in storms but i believe without it protoss are going to have to turtle until they have energy so this is why i suggest the energy increase rate not just with HTs but with infestors and ghosts helping spellcasters remain a great unit to get without being wrap in storms
I would agree with you. If a change needs to be made, then don't remove the upgrade totally, just make it so it increases energy regen rate.
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So... robo tech is really the only way to fight terran then. When vikings come out I like to be in the midst of transitioning to my other AoE unit, the Templar... but with the update they'll be so inefficient that it's probably not even worth it.
I'm not sure how to fight a mass marine/viking strat without templar... literally nothing that protoss can make is efficient vs marines except colossus, templar, and lots of sentries. Eventually you can't really invest the gas in sentries anymore... and the terran bio scales so well with upgrades that they can just continue fighting through it and wait or run away and reengage. Zealots die instantly despite forcefields since terran range is so good, and stalker DPS is terrible mid-late game.
Don't even get me thinking about drops, they're already tough enough to deal with.
Honestly if this patch goes live I'll be less inclined to play the game. I'm not interested in playing colossus/blink/phoenix vs mmm/viking every single game with an occasional 6gate MC all-in.
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Comparing one protoss unit to one terran unit and one zerg unit is, fortunately, not how balancing is done. You have to look at a broader perspective.
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On March 02 2011 04:13 HollowLord wrote:
You know I never actually considered the Warpgate buildtime, nice numbers. 45, 50 and 49.5 sure look like good numbers on paper.
Edit: Although storm does still require research unlike Fungal and EMP, so the initial time to prepare the casters is still a little skewed. It may be nice to test out the time it takes to get up to a storm researched HT compared to upgrading to Lair and getting Infestation Pit.
not to mention the long build time on templar buildings, citadel + templar archives +storm research + amulet is a HUGE INVESTMENT, much more expensive and longer to build than 1 ghost academy or 1 infestation pit.....I can't count how many times I've died trying to go High templar before storm actually gets out.
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On March 02 2011 06:55 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 06:46 [MLG]GCA wrote:
I think removing Amulet was the wrong decision. A change to Storm, some kind of combination of a cast delay/range/damage/radius nerf would have been the better move for changing Templar IMO.
As it stands, teching to Templar already leaves you much more open to timing attacks than Collosi due to the longer research time and heavier gas investment. Now without the ability to reinforce with active Templar, I just don't see a reason to choose Templar tech over Collosi. The time needed to get the Templar, and now reinforce with them, is just too long and will leave a Gateway army too fragile for too long. And the buffer core units from both sides (Roach/Marauder) could already absorb and dodge storm damage reasonably well, especially with regenerative help (Claws/Burrow and Medivacs)
It feels like this change makes Templar a complete all-in decision. If you tech to them, get 4-5 to move out and dont win on the first shot, you're done. You won't be able to reinforce with the AoE a Gateway army needs to stand up to Roach/Marauder reinforcements.
Not to mention a Collosus army was already a better choice from a mobility/positioning standpoint. I just don't get this change at all. Very well stated. Very accurate as well. Now my question is, is this change, given the effects you stated, something that Blizzard wants to make in the PvT matchup?
I guess so. The reason I think they did it was to limit the potential of defensive storming agasint drops. But what's preventing Terran players from including a Ghost in their drops for EMP?
The only other reason I could see is that HT's were too effective at cleaning up the remnants of a lost battle, but I've seen on numerous occassions at all levels that a constant flood of Terran or Zerg units will overrun a Protoss on even economic footing after such an exchange even with Amulet on the field. Gateway units just aren't effective enough in small numbers (for good reason) to handle it.
Hell, Rainbow won against HT with Amulet with basically mass Marines.
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On March 02 2011 07:57 TheGiftedApe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:13 HollowLord wrote:
You know I never actually considered the Warpgate buildtime, nice numbers. 45, 50 and 49.5 sure look like good numbers on paper.
Edit: Although storm does still require research unlike Fungal and EMP, so the initial time to prepare the casters is still a little skewed. It may be nice to test out the time it takes to get up to a storm researched HT compared to upgrading to Lair and getting Infestation Pit. not to mention the long build time on templar buildings, citadel + templar archives +storm research + amulet is a HUGE INVESTMENT, much more expensive and longer to build than 1 ghost academy or 1 infestation pit.....I can't count how many times I've died trying to go High templar before storm actually gets out.
That's exactly why removing the amulet changes the whole tech decision because it is expensive by all arenas to get to that point but it pays off... Without the amulet, the payoff is not worth the cost at all, might as well go colossus.
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I saw a Dimaga vs HuK game recently, Dimaga just won a game turning battle with Roach/Hydra 200/200, HuK warps in 6 HT with amulet, the Zerg army was a instantly vaporized and Dimaga just GG and leaves.
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EPT
