EPTKhaydarin amulet analysis - Page 11
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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. | ||
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harhar!
Germany190 Posts
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Rob28
Canada705 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:17 Everlong wrote: First of all, calm down. Secondly, I'm not talking about sniping mineral line or mid game, where you have your first set of templars on the field. We are discussing the removal of the amulet. I suppose we are talking about late game, where it clearly is an issue and all those things you mentioned are marginal or basically already done. Don't tell me Protoss needs to research warpgates in order to warp-in as an argument, how hard it is to get several HTs in 30 minute mark.. About as hard as it would be for terran to make the equivalent number of ghosts... which hard counter HT any time any place. | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
Ghost: Supply Depot, Barracks, Ghost Academy, Ghost. 30, 60, 40, 40, 170 seconds. 100, 150, 150/50, 150/150. 550/200 minerals and gas required to get one ghost, complete with EMP. Templar: Pylon, Gateway, Cybernetics Core, Warpgate Reseach, Twilight Council, Templar Archive, Storm Research, Templar. 25, 65, 50, 140(93), 50, 50, 110(73), 5, 545 seconds (451 with chronoboost). 100, 150, 150, 50/50, 150/100, 150/200, 200/200, 50/150, 1000/700 minerals and gas required to get one templar with storm. The above is the minimum time required and minimum resources required to obtain 1 of either unit. Please, no silly arguments about "its not that simple" because yes, no idiot would believe the game works like that. The point is, the required time and resources to gain 1 templar with storm minus Khaydarin is ridiculously more expensive and time consuming for a protoss player over a terran's ghost which requires no additional time or resources to upgrade EMP or even Snipe. Have some of you even considered the fact that the protoss army already requires a massive gas investment as compared to the gas requirement for a terran bio army, the choice army many detractors use in the matchup? Khaydarin exists for the reason to allow templars to catch up with the progression of the game. Drop harrass, mutalisks, are well defended by a templar warping into his base (a base that will take him a long time to get out of to join the main army) - but remember, a templar becomes virtually useless for the next 2 minutes while it regains energy for another storm. Again, consider the gas investment required for this one attack, which was not spent on the actual army, and an attack that can be dodged as well. I find it foolish for any player to find any fault in the way templar works or even the advantage of the amulet. Should not the advantage be given to the enemy player through all the time they have to scout and prepare for approaching templars? Indeed, a macroing player only has themself to blame for allowing a protoss to gain the advantage - an army with significant templar support, without doing anything to hinder their progress. Blizzard has not given the PvT matchup nowhere near the required time to transition into different builds. I even believe the ghost is severely underused in the matchup and I'm sure many abusive strategies involving it are waiting to be discovered. | ||
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Kralic
Canada2628 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:11 tehemperorer wrote: Do you know a common build called the 1/1/1 that gives Terran access to drops far sooner than the Protoss player and also includes in the build every unit producing capability to make an efficient and effective unit composition? It's because the Terran drop is available to the Terran player before it is to the Protoss player. If you see a P drop sooner than Terran, the P player doesn't have shit for an army. In addition, since the T drop comes before the P drop, P will continually struggle to try and manage the damage while T can freely macro or push the front. There will be no reason for T to not begin their endgame with medivac drop play, and there will be no ability for the P player to respond in any offensive way aside from a base trade or massing cannons. Does that sound like a game you want to watch? Really if the quick drop of units off 1 barracks totally tilts you... You might be doing something not quite right. Over teching, not macroing good enough off the gateways? I cannot tell, but you seem very aggressive when some one mentions Terran in any sentence and seem to blame losses due to them being Terran and you could do nothing. | ||
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DarkRise
1644 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:14 dala wrote: This is a necessary patch. Storming of mineral lines is way too powerful. Dropping to minerals lines is also powerful with stim when you can only warp stalkers/zealots that have no chance defending against stimmed maruaders/marines | ||
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DragonDefonce
United States790 Posts
Facts: 1. Protoss basic units(zealot, stalker, sentry) get raped by M&M 2. Colossus and HT are powerful enough to make this an even fight, even with Terran's respective special units. 3. In the absence of special units, by fact 1, Protoss will lose to Terran once the game gets in mid/late stage in comparable economic/tech standing, and assuming both players are competent and have similar skill level. 4. Approximately 7 Vikings kill a colossus in 2 volleys, in reasonable upgrade differential. 5. 7 Vikings = 1050/525, 1 Colossus 300/200. 6.Because of 4 and 5, Colossus become less effective as the game drags on and thus Protoss relies on HT more. This is the current trend in most high level games. 7. Storm is a DoT and does less damage even when full damage is taken than the amount of shield that EMP takes away for most units. 8. Feedback is a targeting skill while EMP is an aoe, and thus, much harder to use. This is compounded by the fact that ghosts are extremely small and can cloak, thus not only harder to click on, but also harder to spot in the middle of large bionic army, and leaves room for cloaked emp. 9. Therefore, it can be argued that Terran has a very easy and effective methods of eliminating Protoss special units(colossus, ht, sentry too i guess), while protoss does not have easy way of killing the ghost, although they have reasonably effective way to disable the medivac and the raven. 10. Because of 1, in order for Protoss to be able to overcome 9 is to have quickly renewable source of either colossus or high templar that can cast storm, probably in the middle of the fight as either can be very quickly taken out or disabled early in the battle or before the battle even starts. 11. Colossus are not very easily replaceable. 12. Removing amulet makes resupplying high templar with enough mana to cast storm difficult. 13. If 1,9, and 12 are true, then all terran has to do is come out even in a fight, and attack again as soon as the reinforcement arrive. 14. Amulet upgrade would supply storm to be used so that 13 does not happen. Thus, removing the Amulet breaks balance. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:26 Kralic wrote: Really if the quick drop of units off 1 barracks totally tilts you... You might be doing something not quite right. Over teching, not macroing good enough off the gateways? I cannot tell, but you seem very aggressive when some one mentions Terran in any sentence and seem to blame losses due to them being Terran and you could do nothing. What I stated is a fact, and it had more to do with timing and efficiency in the Terrans favor than anything else. I am glad Terran drops are in the game; don't touch them. The point about the 1/1/1 assumed that Terrans get more than 1 barracks per game and therefore have more access to barracks units than looking at 1/1/1 and literally interpreting it as 1 barracks/1fact/1port per game. Removing the amulet makes it extremely inefficient for P to deal with T drops late game. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:24 Rob28 wrote: About as hard as it would be for terran to make the equivalent number of ghosts... which hard counter HT any time any place. If you want to contribute to this thread somehow, get your facts straight man.. Its really annoying to try to have a serious discussion where you throw random stuff at me without any serious background.. You wont get anywhere trying to match storms with ghosts later in the game.. Are you going to fly your rax with your army and when the fight starts you land them, build tech labs and wait for ghost to pop out? | ||
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Sleight
2471 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:25 a176 wrote: OP, the scope of your analysis is limited. So they take about the same amount of time to construct, but what about the investment and time required to even make the unit in the first place, let alone use its abilities? How does the addition of the unit effect the capability of your army, the size of your army? Its the scope of the ability to obtain this unit and use it, as follows: Ghost: Supply Depot, Barracks, Ghost Academy, Ghost. 30, 60, 40, 40, 170 seconds. 100, 150, 150/50, 150/150. 550/200 minerals and gas required to get one ghost, complete with EMP. Templar: Pylon, Gateway, Cybernetics Core, Warpgate Reseach, Twilight Council, Templar Archive, Storm Research, Templar. 25, 65, 50, 140(93), 50, 50, 110(73), 5, 545 seconds (451 with chronoboost). 100, 150, 150, 50/50, 150/100, 150/200, 200/200, 50/150, 1000/700 minerals and gas required to get one templar with storm. The above is the minimum time required and minimum resources required to obtain 1 of either unit. Please, no silly arguments about "its not that simple" because yes, no idiot would believe the game works like that. The point is, the required time and resources to gain 1 templar with storm minus Khaydarin is ridiculously more expensive and time consuming for a protoss player over a terran's ghost which requires no additional time or resources to upgrade EMP or even Snipe. Have some of you even considered the fact that the protoss army already requires a massive gas investment as compared to the gas requirement for a terran bio army, the choice army many detractors use in the matchup? Khaydarin exists for the reason to allow templars to catch up with the progression of the game. Drop harrass, mutalisks, are well defended by a templar warping into his base (a base that will take him a long time to get out of to join the main army) - but remember, a templar becomes virtually useless for the next 2 minutes while it regains energy for another storm. Again, consider the gas investment required for this one attack, which was not spent on the actual army, and an attack that can be dodged as well. I find it foolish for any player to find any fault in the way templar works or even the advantage of the amulet. Should not the advantage be given to the enemy player through all the time they have to scout and prepare for approaching templars? Indeed, a macroing player only has themself to blame for allowing a protoss to gain the advantage - an army with significant templar support, without doing anything to hinder their progress. Blizzard has not given the PvT matchup nowhere near the required time to transition into different builds. I even believe the ghost is severely underused in the matchup and I'm sure many abusive strategies involving it are waiting to be discovered. A ghost will NEVER kill a single unit with its area of effect spell. Ghosts as spell casters necessitate other units to handle an incoming unit clump. An HT can kill units within its area of effect spell. HTs as spell casters do not need any support to, conceivably, wipe out incoming units. An infestor can kill units within its area of effect spells. infestors as spell casters do not need any support to, conceivably, wipe out incoming units. Your analysis is worse than his. You fail to account for the reason why obtaining the unit is so expensive while discussing how unfair the cost is. He treated them the same under ideal circumstances. | ||
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Aui_2000
Canada435 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:14 tehemperorer wrote: Pylons do that, for 100 minerals less, with higher hp and shields, while adding to your supply pylons don't move Try keeping a warpprism with your army for instant reinforcements--its surprisingly effective. The not having to wait 25 seconds for a pylon to finish does make a difference (esp in pvz where your proxy has to be relatively far away mid-late game). | ||
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zotok
United States66 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
The actual time of production is: Time left on cooldown (varies depending on previous unit and the amount of time left in the cooldown When you realize you need the Templars) + 5 Seconds + Time to gain energy. Also, feedback on a medivac? Is ANYONE serious about that? Medivacs are always low on energy because the MM ball is always stimming around the map. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:34 zotok wrote: No body is saying HTs were better then ghosts or infestors. The Over Powered ness was coming from the warp in mechanic. The ability to warpin right then and there on the front line and storm is what blizzard tried to address. Exactly.. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
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italiangymnast
United States246 Posts
u could warp in 2 HTs, and then morph em. 5 sec + 12 seconds = 17 seconds of production for a beefy unit to defend a drop. its just very gas heavy right now. 300 gass for 1 archon | ||
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Rob28
Canada705 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:30 Everlong wrote: If you want to contribute to this thread somehow, get your facts straight man.. Its really annoying to try to have a serious discussion where you throw random stuff at me without any serious background.. You wont get anywhere trying to match storms with ghosts later in the game.. Are you going to fly your rax with your army and when the fight starts you land them, build tech labs and wait for ghost to pop out? No, as I mentioned before, even the most novice of players will have ghosts on hand in a PvT matchup. Why do you assume nobody uses or has ghosts? EMP does more damage to a protoss deathball than storm ever will to anything. A sane player knows this. Being caught without ghosts as terran vs toss is nothing more than a grave error on your part, and earns no sypathy. My beef is with that fact that the terran caster is retardly > than the main protoss caster. Crippling HT by removing amulet worsens the situation. If you don't take advantage of that, then you sir, are foolish. | ||
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Kralic
Canada2628 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:29 tehemperorer wrote: What I stated is a fact, and it had more to do with timing and efficiency in the Terrans favor than anything else. I am glad Terran drops are in the game; don't touch them. The point about the 1/1/1 assumed that Terrans get more than 1 barracks per game and therefore have more access to barracks units than looking at 1/1/1 and literally interpreting it as 1 barracks/1fact/1port per game. No I was going off the assumption that by saying they got to drop sooner meant that they rushed for a dropship and immediatley went to drop you base. If you mean they can start producing their drop ships earlier ramping up for a drop after they take their second or third base. While producing a lot of barracks units to abuse the easy drop mechanic Protoss cannot stop unless they use more supply and resources than the Terran put into the drop. You should have all the tech structures you need and have warp prisms of your own. Dropping is a harrasment and having more warp gates makes your warp prism that much better of a "drop" harrasment then Terran dropships. How does this factor in with the amulet? Warp in two templar put them in said warp prism go to the Terran base, drop them storm and warp in a butt load of units? It works off the same idea that BW storm drops were except without the ease of warping in a sizeable army at the same time. edit: for defending your base with the HT, maybe always keep 1 or 2 warped in at each base for defense or use when you decide to move your army out. Always replace the ones you use or lose at all times. Waiting until the drop is in your base to go oh shit I need HT to storm and then claim removing the amulet lost you the game is absurd. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:32 Validity wrote: pylons don't move Try keeping a warpprism with your army for instant reinforcements--its surprisingly effective. The not having to wait 25 seconds for a pylon to finish does make a difference (esp in pvz where your proxy has to be relatively far away mid-late game). But they can be placed anywhere, don't require any tech path, and are permanent fixtures that don't require micro. | ||
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FubsyGamr
United States212 Posts
On March 02 2011 05:43 EmerTehFreek wrote: more cannons. moar dotz!!! hahaha But on a serious note, this thread is getting a bit out of hand, 'eh? In the end, I think it kinda sucks that it's getting taken out, but I guess we'll just have to learn how to cope with it, and only use Colossus from now on...until they go mass Viking. Then what? | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On March 02 2011 06:36 Rob28 wrote: No, as I mentioned before, even the most novice of players will have ghosts on hand in a PvT matchup. Why do you assume nobody uses or has ghosts? EMP does more damage to a protoss deathball than storm ever will to anything. A sane player knows this. Being caught without ghosts as terran vs toss is nothing more than a grave error on your part, and earns no sypathy. My beef is with that fact that the terran caster is retardly > than the main protoss caster. Crippling HT by removing amulet worsens the situation. If you don't take advantage of that, then you sir, are foolish. I'm sorry, but you fail to understeand the reason they are removing the Amulet. It's not because Storm is better then EMP. If you ask me, it comes down to micro as for Storm vs EMP. | ||
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