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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 02 2011 05:49 EmerTehFreek wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:47 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:41 avilo wrote:On March 02 2011 05:39 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:35 EmerTehFreek wrote:On March 02 2011 05:30 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:26 EmerTehFreek wrote:On March 02 2011 05:21 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:17 EmerTehFreek wrote:
I don't see how the argument that warp in storm is the only way to deal with drops. Pretty sure that a couple well placed cannons can kill a dropship before it even lands? I dont know if i should take this serious. but first off if a terran sees a cannon it wont just barge in there it will drop away from the cannons. then stim and kill the cannons no problem (already tried this before) second static defense cost money, and they dont move. wich means, you lose in army strenght... third he can also just avoid the static kill probes and heal with medi... and run... wanna bet hes being more cost efficient then you.. Obviously you missed the "well placed" part of that. And you're saying Terran doesn't need static Turrets ever? first off turrets are MADE for anti air. cannons are for both air and ground so weaker in that regard because they fire slower and cant kill a medi alone Second it doesnt matter how well placed they are they still get pwned by marauders and cost 150 minerals + pylon placement near back if your counting it was the first drop dropped. 2 cannons can kill a medivac by the time it unloads 2 units. 2 units can kill 2 cannons? SO what your saying is that i invest 300 minerals atleast in static defense in my mineral line (eventho im protoss and should be teching up) where the terran can just drop his units not directly IN the mineral line but next to the nexus where the cannons cant reach. then proceeds to easily stim and kill off the cannons (lost 300 minerals) and then kill my probes after that?... sure is balanced... and the attack isnt even held off. Warp-in mechanic, have you heard of it? You still dont understand that i cant invest 300 minerals on cannons wich are going to be useless AND warp in units wich are obviously weaker (EVERYONE CHECK EARLY GAME PROTOSS WITHOUT SENTRIES NOW!) just to hold off a single drop? let alone if my warpgates arent on cooldown on anything because i just warped in units on the offensive.... thats what most terran also forget... the cooldown for defending a drop. I mean its a whole different world TvT then PvT... You act like drops do nothing against Zerg and Terran and are incredibly good against Protoss.
well im sorry that its a fact that small protoss armies SUCK and small terran armys PWN and zerg is in the middle.
also lets not forget every zerg also has a queen wich HAS to be in a base for larvae.
Terran is turtle race just look at the friggin bazooka command centre so its only profitable if they make allot of static they can also still easily make vikings to stop drops. whereas for protoss we need to go an entirely different tech route.
also STIM.
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I said this before in an earlier post, but it might be worth mentioning again as I suspect some aren't reading every post and instead are singling out the one that happens to attract their eye... Would a better solution be that the amulet upgrade increases HT regen rate? Avilo, what you think... That would be easier to tweak than removing it entirely, no?
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United States7483 Posts
All the terran players here seem to forget that A: mech beats storm easily: you don't have to play bio all game. B: Protoss has 2 options for beating bio: storm and colossus. If they choose to go the storm route, they absolutely have to get storms off to have a chance, and storm is intended to flat out beat pure bio.
C: Colossus is boring.
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On March 02 2011 05:51 Everlong wrote:
Protoss player always has access to more storms (and faster) then Terran player to EMPs. The issue here is not Ghost vs HT. The problem here is the access to storm. If you want to compare pure EMP and Storm, well, we can discuss that.
WHAT!?! This is so flawed, I can't even....
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On March 02 2011 05:45 0mar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:50 Kazang wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 dragonblade369 wrote:On March 02 2011 04:44 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 04:40 Wrongspeedy wrote:What Protoss players were complaining about Warp-gate? While your number crunching, tell me how long it takes you to get a ghost with an emp in a real 1v1 game, then tell me how long it takes to do the same with an HT and storm. Why can't the ghost and infestor move after he is done being made? + Show Spoiler +"What does this mean?
When production is triggered by something, lets say when you notice enemy coming towards you and start producing Ghost, Infestor or HT, it will look like this.
If Zerg has free larva, and energy upgrade for Infestors researched, it will take 50 seconds to get Infestor with 75 energy, and then Infestor has to move where is needed.
If Terran has non-occupied Barrack, and energy upgrade for Ghosts researched, it will take 45 seconds to get Ghost with 75 energy, and then Ghost has to move where is needed.
If Protoss has non-occupied Warpgate, and Khaydarin Amulet is not researched, it will take 49,5 seconds to get HT with 75 energy, and HT will be ready where is needed." You forgot to mention we have to research storm*. You sound like a troll (okay not a troll, but someone who justifiably hates High Templar) trying to justify a patch that may or may not come (I actually hope it does come. I want stim increased research time, some change to the amulet, and even a zerg buff). And your comparing different units on different races with different costs and timings, things should not always be equal, and those are vary tough comparisons to make (if you could I bet you could balance this game). You could even argue that ghost play at this point is underdeveloped in a lot of Terran players. Its a unit I think even pros still have untapped potential for (so many abilities inc. Nuke O.o). But as a Protoss player I will admit that yes warping in storms at will does indeed feel ridiculous at times, though absolutely necessary in some situations hehehe. I just wanted to ask you, in what situations is warping in storms absolutely necessary? It's one of few things that protoss had to defend against drops... You mean one of the many ways protoss can defend against drops, alongside cannons, feedback, blink stalkers, the fastest air unit in the game, just having dudes defend your base just like zerg has to. Cannons + Gateway is not enough to stop 3 dropships of marine/marauder. Even if you have 3-4 cannons, no more than 1 or 2 cannons will be in range. Marauders destroy cannons and barely take any damage from it. Warped in Zeals/Stalkers are worthless against MMM, even in small numbers. So yea, warped in templar is one of the few options that Protoss has that actually can stop a drop. It's still not cost-effective because that templar is guaranteed to die but at least you can keep the expansion. Feedback is hit or miss. If you don't destroy the medivac, it isn't worth it. Zerg has zerglings which can overwhelm a drop. You can get 4-6 zerglings for a single marauder. For Protoss, you can only get 1 to 1.5 zealots, depending on how worth of gas. And it doesn't even matter because zealots cannot out-DPS medivac healing nor can they deal with being conc shell-kited.
You realize that Zerg doesn't have any Warp-In-abilities AT ALL and still has to somehow defend against Terran-Drops. Also, Zerglings might be strong against Marauders, but which Terran drops Marauders in a Zerg-base? Atm. almost all drops are either Marines or Hellions, which do pretty well against Zerglings, if it's not a ridiculous large amount.
Protoss still has the ability to either warp in Stalkers or just leave a HT at each Expansion and Cannon up a bit, which was also what they had to do in SC:BW and it worked well. Also, it's possible to Warp-in a HT and Feedback, which will completely negate any healing from the Dropship and maybe even kill it.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 02 2011 05:55 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:45 0mar wrote:On March 02 2011 04:50 Kazang wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 dragonblade369 wrote:On March 02 2011 04:44 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 04:40 Wrongspeedy wrote:What Protoss players were complaining about Warp-gate? While your number crunching, tell me how long it takes you to get a ghost with an emp in a real 1v1 game, then tell me how long it takes to do the same with an HT and storm. Why can't the ghost and infestor move after he is done being made? + Show Spoiler +"What does this mean?
When production is triggered by something, lets say when you notice enemy coming towards you and start producing Ghost, Infestor or HT, it will look like this.
If Zerg has free larva, and energy upgrade for Infestors researched, it will take 50 seconds to get Infestor with 75 energy, and then Infestor has to move where is needed.
If Terran has non-occupied Barrack, and energy upgrade for Ghosts researched, it will take 45 seconds to get Ghost with 75 energy, and then Ghost has to move where is needed.
If Protoss has non-occupied Warpgate, and Khaydarin Amulet is not researched, it will take 49,5 seconds to get HT with 75 energy, and HT will be ready where is needed." You forgot to mention we have to research storm*. You sound like a troll (okay not a troll, but someone who justifiably hates High Templar) trying to justify a patch that may or may not come (I actually hope it does come. I want stim increased research time, some change to the amulet, and even a zerg buff). And your comparing different units on different races with different costs and timings, things should not always be equal, and those are vary tough comparisons to make (if you could I bet you could balance this game). You could even argue that ghost play at this point is underdeveloped in a lot of Terran players. Its a unit I think even pros still have untapped potential for (so many abilities inc. Nuke O.o). But as a Protoss player I will admit that yes warping in storms at will does indeed feel ridiculous at times, though absolutely necessary in some situations hehehe. I just wanted to ask you, in what situations is warping in storms absolutely necessary? It's one of few things that protoss had to defend against drops... You mean one of the many ways protoss can defend against drops, alongside cannons, feedback, blink stalkers, the fastest air unit in the game, just having dudes defend your base just like zerg has to. Cannons + Gateway is not enough to stop 3 dropships of marine/marauder. Even if you have 3-4 cannons, no more than 1 or 2 cannons will be in range. Marauders destroy cannons and barely take any damage from it. Warped in Zeals/Stalkers are worthless against MMM, even in small numbers. So yea, warped in templar is one of the few options that Protoss has that actually can stop a drop. It's still not cost-effective because that templar is guaranteed to die but at least you can keep the expansion. Feedback is hit or miss. If you don't destroy the medivac, it isn't worth it. Zerg has zerglings which can overwhelm a drop. You can get 4-6 zerglings for a single marauder. For Protoss, you can only get 1 to 1.5 zealots, depending on how worth of gas. And it doesn't even matter because zealots cannot out-DPS medivac healing nor can they deal with being conc shell-kited. You realize that Zerg doesn't have any Warp-In-abilities AT ALL and still has to somehow defend against Terran-Drops. Also, Zerglings might be strong against Marauders, but which Terran drops Marauders in a Zerg-base? Atm. almost all drops are either Marines or Hellions, which do pretty well against Zerglings, if it's not a ridiculous large amount. Protoss still has the ability to either warp in Stalkers or just leave a HT at each Expansion and Cannon up a bit, which was also what they had to do in SC:BW and it worked well. Also, it's possible to Warp-in a HT and Feedback, which will completely negate any healing from the Dropship and maybe even kill it.
Zerg has very fast units and creep, giving them quick ability to respond to drops. The entire problem with colosuss play as protoss is your massive lack of mobility, which is why some players prefer high templar. High templar with amulet is the ONLY playstyle protoss has late game that emphasizes mobility.
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HTs do not move very fast 
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On March 02 2011 05:55 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:45 0mar wrote:On March 02 2011 04:50 Kazang wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 dragonblade369 wrote:On March 02 2011 04:44 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 04:40 Wrongspeedy wrote:What Protoss players were complaining about Warp-gate? While your number crunching, tell me how long it takes you to get a ghost with an emp in a real 1v1 game, then tell me how long it takes to do the same with an HT and storm. Why can't the ghost and infestor move after he is done being made? + Show Spoiler +"What does this mean?
When production is triggered by something, lets say when you notice enemy coming towards you and start producing Ghost, Infestor or HT, it will look like this.
If Zerg has free larva, and energy upgrade for Infestors researched, it will take 50 seconds to get Infestor with 75 energy, and then Infestor has to move where is needed.
If Terran has non-occupied Barrack, and energy upgrade for Ghosts researched, it will take 45 seconds to get Ghost with 75 energy, and then Ghost has to move where is needed.
If Protoss has non-occupied Warpgate, and Khaydarin Amulet is not researched, it will take 49,5 seconds to get HT with 75 energy, and HT will be ready where is needed." You forgot to mention we have to research storm*. You sound like a troll (okay not a troll, but someone who justifiably hates High Templar) trying to justify a patch that may or may not come (I actually hope it does come. I want stim increased research time, some change to the amulet, and even a zerg buff). And your comparing different units on different races with different costs and timings, things should not always be equal, and those are vary tough comparisons to make (if you could I bet you could balance this game). You could even argue that ghost play at this point is underdeveloped in a lot of Terran players. Its a unit I think even pros still have untapped potential for (so many abilities inc. Nuke O.o). But as a Protoss player I will admit that yes warping in storms at will does indeed feel ridiculous at times, though absolutely necessary in some situations hehehe. I just wanted to ask you, in what situations is warping in storms absolutely necessary? It's one of few things that protoss had to defend against drops... You mean one of the many ways protoss can defend against drops, alongside cannons, feedback, blink stalkers, the fastest air unit in the game, just having dudes defend your base just like zerg has to. Cannons + Gateway is not enough to stop 3 dropships of marine/marauder. Even if you have 3-4 cannons, no more than 1 or 2 cannons will be in range. Marauders destroy cannons and barely take any damage from it. Warped in Zeals/Stalkers are worthless against MMM, even in small numbers. So yea, warped in templar is one of the few options that Protoss has that actually can stop a drop. It's still not cost-effective because that templar is guaranteed to die but at least you can keep the expansion. Feedback is hit or miss. If you don't destroy the medivac, it isn't worth it. Zerg has zerglings which can overwhelm a drop. You can get 4-6 zerglings for a single marauder. For Protoss, you can only get 1 to 1.5 zealots, depending on how worth of gas. And it doesn't even matter because zealots cannot out-DPS medivac healing nor can they deal with being conc shell-kited. You realize that Zerg doesn't have any Warp-In-abilities AT ALL and still has to somehow defend against Terran-Drops. Also, Zerglings might be strong against Marauders, but which Terran drops Marauders in a Zerg-base? Atm. almost all drops are either Marines or Hellions, which do pretty well against Zerglings, if it's not a ridiculous large amount. Protoss still has the ability to either warp in Stalkers or just leave a HT at each Expansion and Cannon up a bit, which was also what they had to do in SC:BW and it worked well. Also, it's possible to Warp-in a HT and Feedback, which will completely negate any healing from the Dropship and maybe even kill it.
Zerg can make 12-20 units at once off of 2-3 unit producing structures. Additionally, Zerg can acquire drones faster (theoretically, depends on game) than any other race, making them have access to more resources sooner
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On March 02 2011 05:55 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:51 Everlong wrote:
Protoss player always has access to more storms (and faster) then Terran player to EMPs. The issue here is not Ghost vs HT. The problem here is the access to storm. If you want to compare pure EMP and Storm, well, we can discuss that. WHAT!?! This is so flawed, I can't even....
Elaborate or don't post at all.. You just discredite my post without even suggesting something..
I suppose we are talking late-game 20-30 mins.. Of course EMP is lower in tech tree, but that is not the reason they are removing the amulet from the game.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 02 2011 05:58 Azarkon wrote:HTs do not move very fast
Exactly. The amulet allowed the protoss to circumvent this somewhat by warping in where it was needed, but once that is gone, the high templar ball will not only be less reliable/weaker to ghosts than the colossus ball, but slower and even LESS mobile.
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Nice post, thanks for the numbers/analysis.
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the way i see it basically this shift is to prevent ht from being a reactionary unit and something that you actively plan to incorporate into your build. no longer can you scout poorly and figure if he drops me i'll just warp in ht. you need to protect mineral lines now with cannon (seriously two cannons at every mineral line easily deters a drop and buys enough time for stalkers against a muta harass (not that storms were particularly effective against a good zerg with mutas anyway) and usually allows you to counter/base race for a win if they overcommit with a force that that doesn't beat and is about even to the two spines one spore zerg use and the missile turrets everywhere strategy many terrans employ). you can still ht drop (though proxy warp in is pretty nerfed), and phoenixes are the intended support unit to support collossi (with other patch changes suggesting that blizzard really wants people using more phoenix anyway). in general it's a minor nerf that slightly slows protoss lategame, but if you've been defending correctly you should still win with any old strategy that included ht you'll just have to wait a bit before pushing out once your army is maxed.
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You realize that Zerg doesn't have any Warp-In-abilities AT ALL and still has to somehow defend against Terran-Drops. Also, Zerglings might be strong against Marauders, but which Terran drops Marauders in a Zerg-base? Atm. almost all drops are either Marines or Hellions, which do pretty well against Zerglings, if it's not a ridiculous large amount.
Protoss still has the ability to either warp in Stalkers or just leave a HT at each Expansion and Cannon up a bit, which was also what they had to do in SC:BW and it worked well. Also, it's possible to Warp-in a HT and Feedback, which will completely negate any healing from the Dropship and maybe even kill it
dude i think the recent Gsl provese ur point regarding how hard it is to defend drops for zerg. however dont take it out on us prtoss players. zergs need a buff to defend drops better. Storms do not need to be nerfed.
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On March 02 2011 05:57 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:55 kickinhead wrote:On March 02 2011 05:45 0mar wrote:On March 02 2011 04:50 Kazang wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 dragonblade369 wrote:On March 02 2011 04:44 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 04:40 Wrongspeedy wrote:What Protoss players were complaining about Warp-gate? While your number crunching, tell me how long it takes you to get a ghost with an emp in a real 1v1 game, then tell me how long it takes to do the same with an HT and storm. Why can't the ghost and infestor move after he is done being made? + Show Spoiler +"What does this mean?
When production is triggered by something, lets say when you notice enemy coming towards you and start producing Ghost, Infestor or HT, it will look like this.
If Zerg has free larva, and energy upgrade for Infestors researched, it will take 50 seconds to get Infestor with 75 energy, and then Infestor has to move where is needed.
If Terran has non-occupied Barrack, and energy upgrade for Ghosts researched, it will take 45 seconds to get Ghost with 75 energy, and then Ghost has to move where is needed.
If Protoss has non-occupied Warpgate, and Khaydarin Amulet is not researched, it will take 49,5 seconds to get HT with 75 energy, and HT will be ready where is needed." You forgot to mention we have to research storm*. You sound like a troll (okay not a troll, but someone who justifiably hates High Templar) trying to justify a patch that may or may not come (I actually hope it does come. I want stim increased research time, some change to the amulet, and even a zerg buff). And your comparing different units on different races with different costs and timings, things should not always be equal, and those are vary tough comparisons to make (if you could I bet you could balance this game). You could even argue that ghost play at this point is underdeveloped in a lot of Terran players. Its a unit I think even pros still have untapped potential for (so many abilities inc. Nuke O.o). But as a Protoss player I will admit that yes warping in storms at will does indeed feel ridiculous at times, though absolutely necessary in some situations hehehe. I just wanted to ask you, in what situations is warping in storms absolutely necessary? It's one of few things that protoss had to defend against drops... You mean one of the many ways protoss can defend against drops, alongside cannons, feedback, blink stalkers, the fastest air unit in the game, just having dudes defend your base just like zerg has to. Cannons + Gateway is not enough to stop 3 dropships of marine/marauder. Even if you have 3-4 cannons, no more than 1 or 2 cannons will be in range. Marauders destroy cannons and barely take any damage from it. Warped in Zeals/Stalkers are worthless against MMM, even in small numbers. So yea, warped in templar is one of the few options that Protoss has that actually can stop a drop. It's still not cost-effective because that templar is guaranteed to die but at least you can keep the expansion. Feedback is hit or miss. If you don't destroy the medivac, it isn't worth it. Zerg has zerglings which can overwhelm a drop. You can get 4-6 zerglings for a single marauder. For Protoss, you can only get 1 to 1.5 zealots, depending on how worth of gas. And it doesn't even matter because zealots cannot out-DPS medivac healing nor can they deal with being conc shell-kited. You realize that Zerg doesn't have any Warp-In-abilities AT ALL and still has to somehow defend against Terran-Drops. Also, Zerglings might be strong against Marauders, but which Terran drops Marauders in a Zerg-base? Atm. almost all drops are either Marines or Hellions, which do pretty well against Zerglings, if it's not a ridiculous large amount. Protoss still has the ability to either warp in Stalkers or just leave a HT at each Expansion and Cannon up a bit, which was also what they had to do in SC:BW and it worked well. Also, it's possible to Warp-in a HT and Feedback, which will completely negate any healing from the Dropship and maybe even kill it. Zerg has very fast units and creep, giving them quick ability to respond to drops. The entire problem with colosuss play as protoss is your massive lack of mobility, which is why some players prefer high templar. High templar with amulet is the ONLY playstyle protoss has late game that emphasizes mobility.
Agreed. A few drops are enough to split the P force, and the most efficient response to that was HT when feedback couldn't solve it, 2-3 zeals and 1 HT could solve it. Now the vulnerability to drops is going to be more exaggerated because the Protoss player, in every situation, is now required to preempt the drop.
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Interestingly, the recent changes are buffing tvp, but also buffing zvt... However, it is making infestors ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, otherwise you end up playing the 'previous' zerg versus the normal, so-called, 'imbalanced' protoss/terran. Also, you can't go DTs anymore, unless it's a "hope" build, the HT transition is not viable, especially with the mothership nerf :S
pvt was never imbalanced and I can only assume that colossus will become even more of a staple unit, meaning that the match up is even MORE boring, but, we might see more tech versus protoss.
Anyway, zerg have just become a 1 trick pony, same as colossus...  Might as well go Terran - for the variety. ???
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On March 02 2011 05:59 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:55 kickinhead wrote:On March 02 2011 05:45 0mar wrote:On March 02 2011 04:50 Kazang wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 dragonblade369 wrote:On March 02 2011 04:44 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 04:40 Wrongspeedy wrote:What Protoss players were complaining about Warp-gate? While your number crunching, tell me how long it takes you to get a ghost with an emp in a real 1v1 game, then tell me how long it takes to do the same with an HT and storm. Why can't the ghost and infestor move after he is done being made? + Show Spoiler +"What does this mean?
When production is triggered by something, lets say when you notice enemy coming towards you and start producing Ghost, Infestor or HT, it will look like this.
If Zerg has free larva, and energy upgrade for Infestors researched, it will take 50 seconds to get Infestor with 75 energy, and then Infestor has to move where is needed.
If Terran has non-occupied Barrack, and energy upgrade for Ghosts researched, it will take 45 seconds to get Ghost with 75 energy, and then Ghost has to move where is needed.
If Protoss has non-occupied Warpgate, and Khaydarin Amulet is not researched, it will take 49,5 seconds to get HT with 75 energy, and HT will be ready where is needed." You forgot to mention we have to research storm*. You sound like a troll (okay not a troll, but someone who justifiably hates High Templar) trying to justify a patch that may or may not come (I actually hope it does come. I want stim increased research time, some change to the amulet, and even a zerg buff). And your comparing different units on different races with different costs and timings, things should not always be equal, and those are vary tough comparisons to make (if you could I bet you could balance this game). You could even argue that ghost play at this point is underdeveloped in a lot of Terran players. Its a unit I think even pros still have untapped potential for (so many abilities inc. Nuke O.o). But as a Protoss player I will admit that yes warping in storms at will does indeed feel ridiculous at times, though absolutely necessary in some situations hehehe. I just wanted to ask you, in what situations is warping in storms absolutely necessary? It's one of few things that protoss had to defend against drops... You mean one of the many ways protoss can defend against drops, alongside cannons, feedback, blink stalkers, the fastest air unit in the game, just having dudes defend your base just like zerg has to. Cannons + Gateway is not enough to stop 3 dropships of marine/marauder. Even if you have 3-4 cannons, no more than 1 or 2 cannons will be in range. Marauders destroy cannons and barely take any damage from it. Warped in Zeals/Stalkers are worthless against MMM, even in small numbers. So yea, warped in templar is one of the few options that Protoss has that actually can stop a drop. It's still not cost-effective because that templar is guaranteed to die but at least you can keep the expansion. Feedback is hit or miss. If you don't destroy the medivac, it isn't worth it. Zerg has zerglings which can overwhelm a drop. You can get 4-6 zerglings for a single marauder. For Protoss, you can only get 1 to 1.5 zealots, depending on how worth of gas. And it doesn't even matter because zealots cannot out-DPS medivac healing nor can they deal with being conc shell-kited. You realize that Zerg doesn't have any Warp-In-abilities AT ALL and still has to somehow defend against Terran-Drops. Also, Zerglings might be strong against Marauders, but which Terran drops Marauders in a Zerg-base? Atm. almost all drops are either Marines or Hellions, which do pretty well against Zerglings, if it's not a ridiculous large amount. Protoss still has the ability to either warp in Stalkers or just leave a HT at each Expansion and Cannon up a bit, which was also what they had to do in SC:BW and it worked well. Also, it's possible to Warp-in a HT and Feedback, which will completely negate any healing from the Dropship and maybe even kill it. Zerg can make 12-20 units at once off of 2-3 unit producing structures. Additionally, Zerg can acquire drones faster (theoretically, depends on game) than any other race, making them have access to more resources sooner
Why don't you try dropping Terran and abusing their production capabilities then, since Protoss seems to be the most vulnerable race for getting dropped apparently? What is stopping you?
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On March 02 2011 05:57 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:55 kickinhead wrote:On March 02 2011 05:45 0mar wrote:On March 02 2011 04:50 Kazang wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 dragonblade369 wrote:On March 02 2011 04:44 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 04:40 Wrongspeedy wrote:What Protoss players were complaining about Warp-gate? While your number crunching, tell me how long it takes you to get a ghost with an emp in a real 1v1 game, then tell me how long it takes to do the same with an HT and storm. Why can't the ghost and infestor move after he is done being made? + Show Spoiler +"What does this mean?
When production is triggered by something, lets say when you notice enemy coming towards you and start producing Ghost, Infestor or HT, it will look like this.
If Zerg has free larva, and energy upgrade for Infestors researched, it will take 50 seconds to get Infestor with 75 energy, and then Infestor has to move where is needed.
If Terran has non-occupied Barrack, and energy upgrade for Ghosts researched, it will take 45 seconds to get Ghost with 75 energy, and then Ghost has to move where is needed.
If Protoss has non-occupied Warpgate, and Khaydarin Amulet is not researched, it will take 49,5 seconds to get HT with 75 energy, and HT will be ready where is needed." You forgot to mention we have to research storm*. You sound like a troll (okay not a troll, but someone who justifiably hates High Templar) trying to justify a patch that may or may not come (I actually hope it does come. I want stim increased research time, some change to the amulet, and even a zerg buff). And your comparing different units on different races with different costs and timings, things should not always be equal, and those are vary tough comparisons to make (if you could I bet you could balance this game). You could even argue that ghost play at this point is underdeveloped in a lot of Terran players. Its a unit I think even pros still have untapped potential for (so many abilities inc. Nuke O.o). But as a Protoss player I will admit that yes warping in storms at will does indeed feel ridiculous at times, though absolutely necessary in some situations hehehe. I just wanted to ask you, in what situations is warping in storms absolutely necessary? It's one of few things that protoss had to defend against drops... You mean one of the many ways protoss can defend against drops, alongside cannons, feedback, blink stalkers, the fastest air unit in the game, just having dudes defend your base just like zerg has to. Cannons + Gateway is not enough to stop 3 dropships of marine/marauder. Even if you have 3-4 cannons, no more than 1 or 2 cannons will be in range. Marauders destroy cannons and barely take any damage from it. Warped in Zeals/Stalkers are worthless against MMM, even in small numbers. So yea, warped in templar is one of the few options that Protoss has that actually can stop a drop. It's still not cost-effective because that templar is guaranteed to die but at least you can keep the expansion. Feedback is hit or miss. If you don't destroy the medivac, it isn't worth it. Zerg has zerglings which can overwhelm a drop. You can get 4-6 zerglings for a single marauder. For Protoss, you can only get 1 to 1.5 zealots, depending on how worth of gas. And it doesn't even matter because zealots cannot out-DPS medivac healing nor can they deal with being conc shell-kited. You realize that Zerg doesn't have any Warp-In-abilities AT ALL and still has to somehow defend against Terran-Drops. Also, Zerglings might be strong against Marauders, but which Terran drops Marauders in a Zerg-base? Atm. almost all drops are either Marines or Hellions, which do pretty well against Zerglings, if it's not a ridiculous large amount. Protoss still has the ability to either warp in Stalkers or just leave a HT at each Expansion and Cannon up a bit, which was also what they had to do in SC:BW and it worked well. Also, it's possible to Warp-in a HT and Feedback, which will completely negate any healing from the Dropship and maybe even kill it. Zerg has very fast units and creep, giving them quick ability to respond to drops. The entire problem with colosuss play as protoss is your massive lack of mobility, which is why some players prefer high templar. High templar with amulet is the ONLY playstyle protoss has late game that emphasizes mobility.
Yes, but the Zerg pretty much has to use their entire Army of Mutas or most of their Ground-Army to defend against Drops and if the Terran attacks at the same time and you split up your Army, you're gonna loose the battle. Also, Marines totally rip through Mutas, 1 Fungal won't kill anything, it's easier to take out important buildings from a Zerg etc.
Warping-In stuff is still a much easier way to defend, even without Instant-Storm. Besides, Lategame-Protoss is stronger than Terran anyways, so Drops are at least an Option for the Terran to stay in the Game. I really don't understand Protoss-whining about drops. Warping in a HT to storm 4 Marauders is a pretty stupid way to defend against a Drop anyways. Good players leave parts of their Army to defend and reinforce with Warp-In's if it's a big drop.
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On March 02 2011 05:49 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:44 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 05:35 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 05:27 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 05:17 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 05:05 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:42 avilo wrote:
Lots of protoss players themselves were saying that the amulet is too powerful...so yeah...this chang should have come a while ago. It's bad game design to have a match-up where, "i researched khadyarin now the game is over." Which PvT was sorta devolving into.
I remember playing some off-race as protoss, whenever I got a PvT and managed to get the amulet I won lol.
Now protoss will have to actually prepare a defense...just like SC1. You can still do warp in templar to any point on the map with pylon power, but it can't be ah, "oh shit i didn't defend here, let me warp in 5 templar and make an entire army go bye bye ^_^" I respect your level Avilo, but can't as a Protoss I say now Terran should prepare a defense against warp in storms? The balls in their court; if Terran can't put a single viking on patrol near their natural mineral line to stop the WP, whose fault is that? Protoss players have experienced hellion drops so many times we're used to it and preempt it, why can't Terrans do the same? Wait, I find a mishap in your logic. You state that Terran can stop storms by making some vikings to stop incoming Warp Prisms but what about Protoss? Can't they have some High Templar at their expansions to feedback when a medivac comes in? Why don't they just make some phoenixes and patrol their expansions? Also, protoss have one of the most mobile unit in the game, the STALKER. Blink stalker is one of the most mobile units in the game and could be used to defend drops and other forms of harassment. Every suggestion of yours is flawed. You assume the medivac has at least 150 energy, that I have a stargate and phoenix IN ADDITION to my tech path, and that I have stalkers nearby with blink already researched. It's great the stalker is mobile... Does it have to fight MMM too? That's the problem. If I have these mobile stalkers, I need a shitload to defend a drop, and I'm not talking 4 or 5. Terran already have a starport and a reactor if they went bio, which they do most of the time. The argument is that Protoss doesn't have the unit they need, that it exists on a whole different tech path. Terran, however, have instant access to their unit since their techpath has already been reached. Okay, the phoenixes were a bit outrageous. Hmm...true but I just wanted to let you know that i'm talking about late-game drops where the toss has around 3 expansions. In my opinion, toss has the second most easiest way to scout drops by having observers around the map on the lookout which makes it ultra-easy for them. Terran can not say the same about templar drops. And I don't understand what you mean that the stalker has to fight Marine/Medivac/Marauder drop too. Think about it: If a protoss warps in ~5 zealots with CHARGE just when the medivac is dropping, and has three-four blink stalkers supporting them it can take out a 8 marine drop. Case in point, that's 10 supply from the Terran to execute, and 16-18 supply from the P to stop it, not to mention the resource cost: 500/100 for Terran, 875/150 or 1000/200 for Protoss That's also assuming that you don't build any cannons at your expansion, and haven't scouted the drop before it happened (i.e have observers). 3 cannons can probably hold off a 8-marine drop with ease or at LEAST hold it off until additional reinforcements (2-3 zealots with charge) arrive. And these cannons can also be used to prevent future drops. Also, you must know that if you scouted and warped in stalkers in time before the Medivac comes into the base and STARTS dropping marines, you can easily snipe the medivac and kill the dropped marines. Another case in point: warp in 2 high templar and get a good storm off that kills all the marines (maybe 2-3 left, which could be nullified with cannons), think about the resources then. Also, those 2 high templar can be used later on. Anyways, i'm done with this. Let's just see how the game turns out after the patch. I went HT, why do I have a bunch of free observers floating around spotting drops instead of sighting your army in your example? Also, snipe is a ghost ability. Ours is called feedback, and it requires the medivac to have 150+ energy  Your other case in point is countered by the fact that you have MULEs, and when you lose mineral only units like the marine, replacing them given the proper infrastructure is not a concern. Those HT, however, are 50/150/2 dead weight for the next 133 seconds.
Yes, feedback is not the best counter. And i'm not saying that you will catch every SINGLE drop with an observer. Observers are usually made to see army/tech, expansions and every good protoss player should use them to scout possible drop flight plans. For example, Scrap Station is a very drop-favored map mainly because it has such a short air distance. So, its only logical that I have an observer where the drop is coming from? Also, Lost Temple (spawn positions are 9, 6 short air distance) I should have observers at the flight patterns? yes/no? Also, you must realize that you guys have chrono boost. And, NO, chrono boost is NO where near better than MULEs, but late game, when I have `9-10 gates and have a decent economy up (4 nexuses), I always use chrono on my gateway/ robo / etc. units to pump them out faster.
I see where your going with the MULEs. But MULEs do not allow you to get units out faster, they just allow you to have the ability to not worry about pumping out your units. But yea...their WAYYY better than Chrono boosts.
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I think the OP forgot to mention that ghost and infestors are tier 2 units and come with there money ability right away. Not only does storm take forever to research but it cost a ton and the buildings required for it are way pricey. 150/100 for twilight and 150/200 for the Templar archives. AND then 200/200 for storm and then 50/150 for each HT. So for that first HT it takes 550/650 vs 350/225 for for 1 ghost with emp. Not to mention a ghost can be out in less than 6 minutes. I was practicing with a buddy terran and was trying a 2 gate expand build that allows me to poke his main at around 6 mins with 6 stalkers and a zealot. He had 1 ghost 1 maurader and 6 marines 10 suppy 550/175 vs 14 (850/300) and he absolutely owned me with 1 emp. IF they take amulet out, emp should at a minimum require research and emp late game is amazing against all protoss units except the colo which funny enough is hard counter against another terran unit and taking amulet pretty much elimates our only true cost effective way of dealing with mulit drops.
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Terran need to change their playstyle, can't depend too heavy on barrack anymore, those Marines don't cost anything, marauders are OP!
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EPT
