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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
No...are you kidding me? Terrans do not have a ghost instantenously at any point on the map. You are living in a fantasy land where ghosts are somehow the Terran equivalent of high templar. I'm not theorycrafting, I'm telling you how the game is. Moving workers to stop an HT? Look, I am not going to argue with you here, I'm not theorycrafting, I'm telling you how the game is, as will other good Protoss/Terrans. And I already addressed what typically happens with spotter units or a few units sent to kill a pylon ends up with a round of warp-ins to parry that.
Either way, it does not matter. Templar warp-in has always been very powerful, if not too powerful, which is why Blizzard is removing it.
Or you could invest in a 100/100 sensor tower and never have to worry about harass from that side of the map. Also, you can easily build 1 or 2 reapers to deal with proxy pylons.
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On March 02 2011 05:27 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:24 Azarkon wrote:
Protoss should really experiment with more phoenixes against MMM mobility play. True, phoenixes get demolished by stimmed marines, but the key to stopping drops is to catch them before they unload, and phoenixes are the ideal air superiority fighters, which give you control of the air space at a level that Terran cannot contest until Battle Cruisers, and I doubt a MMM player is going to go BCs. You do know that vikings can be reactored and are good against phoenixes even without marines, which are found in almost every Terran army, right? This isn't a solution, and it requires a separate tech path that does not handle the real threat which is bio. Sure I can mass phoenix, that way at least I am allowed to lose my base to bio starting from the front rather than the back.
Phoenixes are better than Vikings in more ways than one, and you need them to counter Vikings in order to prevent MMM from rolling over your Colossi, so this is why it's not a completely separate tech path just to counter drops, but an effective unit to have against MMM or even Mech play (due to the ability to lift tanks) in general. In my opinion, the HT nerf will either result in Protoss players building a bunch of HTs to sit in their base, or it will result in Protoss players transitioning to using Phoenix as support units in their Colossi/Gateway compositions. Given the choice, I think it's be better to have a fleet of Phoenixes than a bunch of idle HTs.
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On March 02 2011 05:27 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:24 Azarkon wrote:
Protoss should really experiment with more phoenixes against MMM mobility play. True, phoenixes get demolished by stimmed marines, but the key to stopping drops is to catch them before they unload, and phoenixes are the ideal air superiority fighters, which give you control of the air space at a level that Terran cannot contest until Battle Cruisers, and I doubt a MMM player is going to go BCs. You do know that vikings can be reactored and are good against phoenixes even without marines, which are found in almost every Terran army, right? This isn't a solution, and it requires a separate tech path that does not handle the real threat which is bio. Sure I can mass phoenix, that way at least I am allowed to lose my base to bio starting from the front rather than the back.
Why are you acting like this is the end of the world? There are a ton of players that go collosus/phoenix and have no problems at all versus Terran. Also, templars are not being removed from the game, stop overreacting.
There aren't any "solutions" needed. They are already there. Play the game. Also, if you played Terran you'd know reactored vikings aren't as awesome as you are making them out in your post, especially versus phoenixes/collosus/deathball, and versus high templars late game.
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On March 02 2011 05:25 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:11 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:57 avilo wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:42 avilo wrote:
Lots of protoss players themselves were saying that the amulet is too powerful...so yeah...this chang should have come a while ago. It's bad game design to have a match-up where, "i researched khadyarin now the game is over." Which PvT was sorta devolving into.
I remember playing some off-race as protoss, whenever I got a PvT and managed to get the amulet I won lol.
Now protoss will have to actually prepare a defense...just like SC1. You can still do warp in templar to any point on the map with pylon power, but it can't be ah, "oh shit i didn't defend here, let me warp in 5 templar and make an entire army go bye bye ^_^" I respect your level Avilo, but can't as a Protoss I say now Terran should prepare a defense against warp in storms? The balls in their court; if Terran can't put a single viking on patrol near their natural mineral line to stop the WP, whose fault is that? Protoss players have experienced hellion drops so many times we're used to it and preempt it, why can't Terrans do the same? Terrans do prepare a defense against it...but even in those scenarios if it's an offensive warp-in it's still going to do damage for littel to no effort. Also, we're not even talking warp prisms here, which are absolutely amazing. On maps like xel naga, a lot of P will scatter pylons everywhere on your side of the map, and there are instances where you cannot spare a few units to kill the pylons because T as well must have their army together, and if you send a "few" units to kill a pylon or prism, the Protoss matches those few units with newly warped in ones  They're nerfing it because it's been too powerful. It always has been. As for drops, drops are different from warp-ins because drops are not instantly at any single point in the map with zero travel time. And no, a lot of times in PvT drops are not pre-emptively defended by Protoss. Good players do stop drops by being ready, but a large majority of the time newly warped in templar/gateway units stop drops. It's too powerful. Imagine being able to call-down a nuke anywhere on the map...that's essentially what warp-in templar storm is. Maybe Blizz will give that to Terran in an expansion pack ^_^ just kidding lol. Avilo, it takes 1 ghost to stop this. You should have ghosts if you have done scouting right? All you have to do in every case as a Terran is see the templar coming, whether thats from having vision on the high ground, a single forward marine, a single supply depot, whatever. If you see the HT coming, you can move your workers and deal with the HT. The HT is not fast like a hellion, so it can't destroy your scvs as they run. It isn't a seige tank that, together with a few marines, can sit seiged and nail your expansion for minutes on end. It isn't an infestor or a ghost that can become undetectable and avoid death. It IS a unit that is typically killed soon after it has been used once. I don't agree with comparing it to a nuke either, the HT requires a stationary target, surprise, slow reactions, and is clumped with other units in the small template to be effective. No...are you kidding me? Terrans do not have a ghost instantenously at any point on the map. You are living in a fantasy land where ghosts are somehow the Terran equivalent of high templar. I'm not theorycrafting, I'm telling you how the game is. Moving workers to stop an HT? Look, I am not going to argue with you here, I'm not theorycrafting, I'm telling you how the game is, as will other good Protoss/Terrans. And I already addressed what typically happens with spotter units or a few units sent to kill a pylon ends up with a round of warp-ins to parry that. Either way, it does not matter. Templar warp-in has always been very powerful, if not too powerful, which is why Blizzard is removing it. Lots of protoss do fine even without templars, but there are others that literally abuse it to the point where you cannot attack cost effectively. It's basically like 5rax reaper. Could it be stopped? Yes, it could be. Was it too powerful? Yes, it was. They went a bit overboard on something like that basically removing the reaper from competitive play in your army, whereas this will not happen with such a strong unit as the high templar.
Okay man, I respect what you said. You do know the game better, but I feel this change is uncalled for and was done to stop a side-effect of the HT/gateway army which is warpstorms. This change then reduces the overall effectiveness of the HT, and will force most P players into the colossus tech path, making the matchup more predictable and favoring Terran. I will say now that if the amulet is removed, there will be balance repercussions in PvT addressed further down the line. If anything, keep the amulet and have it simply increase regeneration rate.
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On March 02 2011 05:26 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:22 Kralic wrote:
Okay... so you lost the game due to one marauder kiting an archon? Probably not.
1 drop ship isn't going to rape your base beyond you losing unless you are slow to react. A drop kills probes, yes it does but what stops you from moving the probes and minimizing the losses? You have issues with them running around your base stimmed? Still once again slow reaction or the wrong action was taken to deal with said units in your base.
Want another idea to help protoss out? Put observers along the edges of the maps to spot drop ships ahead of time. I think the point is that one terran drop will do more damage than any storm warp-in. Especially since storms cant stack. Would you rather have 4 mauraders in your mineral line, or a brief cloud of psionic energy with no follow-through?
Really an Archon in your mineral line means that you will just ignore it because they suck? I will gladly love to play against Terran players who ignore HT's in their mineral line because they only get one storm. Marauders also are terrible at killing workers for the amount of shots they need.
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Why should HTs even be balanced around the other spellcasters?
HTs are a tier 3 Unit like Colossus or Battlecruisers.
Ghosts and Infestors are Tier 2.
Its normal that their abilities should be better than the ones of the other 2..
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On March 02 2011 05:27 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:17 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 05:05 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:42 avilo wrote:
Lots of protoss players themselves were saying that the amulet is too powerful...so yeah...this chang should have come a while ago. It's bad game design to have a match-up where, "i researched khadyarin now the game is over." Which PvT was sorta devolving into.
I remember playing some off-race as protoss, whenever I got a PvT and managed to get the amulet I won lol.
Now protoss will have to actually prepare a defense...just like SC1. You can still do warp in templar to any point on the map with pylon power, but it can't be ah, "oh shit i didn't defend here, let me warp in 5 templar and make an entire army go bye bye ^_^" I respect your level Avilo, but can't as a Protoss I say now Terran should prepare a defense against warp in storms? The balls in their court; if Terran can't put a single viking on patrol near their natural mineral line to stop the WP, whose fault is that? Protoss players have experienced hellion drops so many times we're used to it and preempt it, why can't Terrans do the same? Wait, I find a mishap in your logic. You state that Terran can stop storms by making some vikings to stop incoming Warp Prisms but what about Protoss? Can't they have some High Templar at their expansions to feedback when a medivac comes in? Why don't they just make some phoenixes and patrol their expansions? Also, protoss have one of the most mobile unit in the game, the STALKER. Blink stalker is one of the most mobile units in the game and could be used to defend drops and other forms of harassment. Every suggestion of yours is flawed. You assume the medivac has at least 150 energy, that I have a stargate and phoenix IN ADDITION to my tech path, and that I have stalkers nearby with blink already researched. It's great the stalker is mobile... Does it have to fight MMM too? That's the problem. If I have these mobile stalkers, I need a shitload to defend a drop, and I'm not talking 4 or 5. Terran already have a starport and a reactor if they went bio, which they do most of the time. The argument is that Protoss doesn't have the unit they need, that it exists on a whole different tech path. Terran, however, have instant access to their unit since their techpath has already been reached. Okay, the phoenixes were a bit outrageous. Hmm...true but I just wanted to let you know that i'm talking about late-game drops where the toss has around 3 expansions. In my opinion, toss has the second most easiest way to scout drops by having observers around the map on the lookout which makes it ultra-easy for them. Terran can not say the same about templar drops. And I don't understand what you mean that the stalker has to fight Marine/Medivac/Marauder drop too. Think about it: If a protoss warps in ~5 zealots with CHARGE just when the medivac is dropping, and has three-four blink stalkers supporting them it can take out a 8 marine drop.
Case in point, that's 10 supply from the Terran to execute, and 16-18 supply from the P to stop it, not to mention the resource cost: 500/100 for Terran, 875/150 or 1000/200 for Protoss
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On March 02 2011 05:31 DNA61289 wrote:Show nested quote +No...are you kidding me? Terrans do not have a ghost instantenously at any point on the map. You are living in a fantasy land where ghosts are somehow the Terran equivalent of high templar. I'm not theorycrafting, I'm telling you how the game is. Moving workers to stop an HT? Look, I am not going to argue with you here, I'm not theorycrafting, I'm telling you how the game is, as will other good Protoss/Terrans. And I already addressed what typically happens with spotter units or a few units sent to kill a pylon ends up with a round of warp-ins to parry that.
Either way, it does not matter. Templar warp-in has always been very powerful, if not too powerful, which is why Blizzard is removing it. Or you could invest in a 100/100 sensor tower and never have to worry about harass from that side of the map. Also, you can easily build 1 or 2 reapers to deal with proxy pylons.
Sensor towers are amazing but no, reapers for that use are never good versus a good player. Like I said before...pylon....warp-in...your 50 vespene gas is wasted. Obviously if you can manage a few units to kill a pylon that's great, but there are lots of situations where there will be pylons scattered and a round of warp-ins will kill the few units you sent off to kill the pylon.
Anyways, people here are getting into theorycrafting too much. It's not about "stopping it." And more about, "is this upgrade broken and affecting the balance of the game?" Which is definitely a "yes."
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On March 02 2011 05:30 Eraz0rZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:26 EmerTehFreek wrote:On March 02 2011 05:21 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:17 EmerTehFreek wrote:
I don't see how the argument that warp in storm is the only way to deal with drops. Pretty sure that a couple well placed cannons can kill a dropship before it even lands? I dont know if i should take this serious. but first off if a terran sees a cannon it wont just barge in there it will drop away from the cannons. then stim and kill the cannons no problem (already tried this before) second static defense cost money, and they dont move. wich means, you lose in army strenght... third he can also just avoid the static kill probes and heal with medi... and run... wanna bet hes being more cost efficient then you.. Obviously you missed the "well placed" part of that. And you're saying Terran doesn't need static Turrets ever? first off turrets are MADE for anti air. cannons are for both air and ground so weaker in that regard because they fire slower and cant kill a medi alone Second it doesnt matter how well placed they are they still get pwned by marauders and cost 150 minerals + pylon placement near back if your counting it was the first drop dropped.
2 cannons can kill a medivac by the time it unloads 2 units. 2 units can kill 2 cannons?
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United States7483 Posts
On March 02 2011 05:34 silentsaint wrote:
Why should HTs even be balanced around the other spellcasters?
HTs are a tier 3 Unit like Colossus or Battlecruisers.
Ghosts and Infestors are Tier 2.
Its normal that their abilities should be better than the ones of the other 2..
They shouldn't, but it's not a question of tier, but of function and purpose. High templar replace colossi in the protoss army. You can use both at the same time, obviously, but the more high temps you have, the less colossus you get, and vice versa.
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The flaws with the analysis are pretty clear. Putting aside the amount of tech and unit/food cost differences, you're ignoring versatility.
A HT can cast feedback, which only applies to a single target that has mana. Its not useless but against most army compositions its use is going to be extremely limited, and its use in harass even more so.
A HT has no attack. The only things it can do are feedback, storm and forming an archon, which consumes 2 HT. And storm requires an upgrade.
A ghost without the energy for EMP can still snipe (a good ability), cloak (a good ability), potentially nuke (semi-gimmicky) and fight pretty competently. Without spells, a ghost still contributes. And once it is created it can already snipe twice, cloak for ~30 seconds, and fight like something between a marine and marauder. And with the exception of cloak, these abilities are inherent.
The Infestor is a fairer comparison. But even then an infestor can burrow and escape or use infested terrans to defend itself or harass mineral lines.
And the thing is... there's a +25 starting energy upgrade for ghosts and infestors as well. If it really was just as important and took just as long to get to 75 energy for those units, wouldn't we always see Terrans and Zerg going Ghost or Infestors getting those upgrades every time?
Storm is pretty much the only reason to ever get high templar. If you want archons, DTs are cheaper, better as part of an army and pretty strong in harass. If you make it so you have to warp in a HT 45 seconds before you want it to be at all useful, the warp mechanic goes from being a strength of Protoss meant in part to compensate for weak gateway units and immobile armies to weakness as you can't cancel a HT or protect it from attacks.
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On March 02 2011 05:17 EmerTehFreek wrote:
I don't see how the argument that warp in storm is the only way to deal with drops. Pretty sure that a couple well placed cannons can kill a dropship before it even lands?
Nobody is going to fly a dropship into a cannon.....
And 8 Marines/ 4 Marauders kill 2 Canons (you are never going to attack them with more than 2 cannons) in 10 seconds.
I dont undestand why people suggest to start using Feedback. It's basically a 50/150 investment just to stop the 13hitpoints/second regeneration.
It doesnt make sense that a drop which is instantly spotted and perfectly countered still will be going to be cost-efficient (without any terran-micro!)
A Phoenix takes 15 seconds to take down a Medivac btw.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 02 2011 05:35 EmerTehFreek wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:30 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:26 EmerTehFreek wrote:On March 02 2011 05:21 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:17 EmerTehFreek wrote:
I don't see how the argument that warp in storm is the only way to deal with drops. Pretty sure that a couple well placed cannons can kill a dropship before it even lands? I dont know if i should take this serious. but first off if a terran sees a cannon it wont just barge in there it will drop away from the cannons. then stim and kill the cannons no problem (already tried this before) second static defense cost money, and they dont move. wich means, you lose in army strenght... third he can also just avoid the static kill probes and heal with medi... and run... wanna bet hes being more cost efficient then you.. Obviously you missed the "well placed" part of that. And you're saying Terran doesn't need static Turrets ever? first off turrets are MADE for anti air. cannons are for both air and ground so weaker in that regard because they fire slower and cant kill a medi alone Second it doesnt matter how well placed they are they still get pwned by marauders and cost 150 minerals + pylon placement near back if your counting it was the first drop dropped. 2 cannons can kill a medivac by the time it unloads 2 units. 2 units can kill 2 cannons?
Most terrans don't drop into cannons, they drop just out of range and then outrange the cannons with marauders. Unless you are literally going to cover your base in cannons, you aren't preventing drops with them period.
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On March 02 2011 05:28 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:25 avilo wrote:
No...are you kidding me? Terrans do not have a ghost instantenously at any point on the map. You are living in a fantasy land where ghosts are somehow the Terran equivalent of high templar. I'm not theorycrafting, I'm telling you how the game is. Moving workers to stop an HT? Look, I am not going to argue with you here, I'm not theorycrafting, I'm telling you how the game is, as will other good Protoss/Terrans. And I already addressed what typically happens with spotter units or a few units sent to kill a pylon ends up with a round of warp-ins to parry that.
Either way, it does not matter. Templar warp-in has always been very powerful, if not too powerful, which is why Blizzard is removing it
What kind of terran doesnt have ghosts in a TvP? That's some bronze-level shit right there.
That's what I'm saying, but not so harshly. If you see HT, don't think you can get away with not making ghosts. If you don't get ghosts, you're asking to be warpstormed. Keep 1 in your mineral line with vision. If you see WP, just watch it. When the HT start warping in you have ample freaking time to EMP
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On March 02 2011 04:14 dala wrote:
This is a necessary patch. Storming of mineral lines is way too powerful.
Having flying DTs is fine though.
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On March 02 2011 05:27 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:17 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 05:05 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:42 avilo wrote:
Lots of protoss players themselves were saying that the amulet is too powerful...so yeah...this chang should have come a while ago. It's bad game design to have a match-up where, "i researched khadyarin now the game is over." Which PvT was sorta devolving into.
I remember playing some off-race as protoss, whenever I got a PvT and managed to get the amulet I won lol.
Now protoss will have to actually prepare a defense...just like SC1. You can still do warp in templar to any point on the map with pylon power, but it can't be ah, "oh shit i didn't defend here, let me warp in 5 templar and make an entire army go bye bye ^_^" I respect your level Avilo, but can't as a Protoss I say now Terran should prepare a defense against warp in storms? The balls in their court; if Terran can't put a single viking on patrol near their natural mineral line to stop the WP, whose fault is that? Protoss players have experienced hellion drops so many times we're used to it and preempt it, why can't Terrans do the same? Wait, I find a mishap in your logic. You state that Terran can stop storms by making some vikings to stop incoming Warp Prisms but what about Protoss? Can't they have some High Templar at their expansions to feedback when a medivac comes in? Why don't they just make some phoenixes and patrol their expansions? Also, protoss have one of the most mobile unit in the game, the STALKER. Blink stalker is one of the most mobile units in the game and could be used to defend drops and other forms of harassment. Every suggestion of yours is flawed. You assume the medivac has at least 150 energy, that I have a stargate and phoenix IN ADDITION to my tech path, and that I have stalkers nearby with blink already researched. It's great the stalker is mobile... Does it have to fight MMM too? That's the problem. If I have these mobile stalkers, I need a shitload to defend a drop, and I'm not talking 4 or 5. Terran already have a starport and a reactor if they went bio, which they do most of the time. The argument is that Protoss doesn't have the unit they need, that it exists on a whole different tech path. Terran, however, have instant access to their unit since their techpath has already been reached. Okay, the phoenixes were a bit outrageous. Hmm...true but I just wanted to let you know that i'm talking about late-game drops where the toss has around 3 expansions. In my opinion, toss has the second most easiest way to scout drops by having observers around the map on the lookout which makes it ultra-easy for them. Terran can not say the same about templar drops. And I don't understand what you mean that the stalker has to fight Marine/Medivac/Marauder drop too. Think about it: If a protoss warps in ~5 zealots with CHARGE just when the medivac is dropping, and has three-four blink stalkers supporting them it can take out a 8 marine drop.
1) If protoss can have observers around the map on all possible droppable locations, then terran can have sensor towers which basically tell you the same, but you need fewer of them. I'd like to ask you also why is that, that we see more terran use sensor towers than toss building several observers, and answer yourself the question that it is even easier for terran to scout for drops.
2) I'm not sure what is the deal with people about storm drops, as if it was something common in top level games. Not only is it not that common, when it happens it doesn't even do significant damage. In the best of cases, if someone has 3 workers per mineral patch, a storm doesn't have enough range to cover more than 3. That's max, of the max 9 workers. This in the best possible option - well best possible of all would be him having all his workers from many bases on one because the others got mined out, but thats even less likely to happen). Now, if he moves the workers, the storm does damage, but 0 kills. Now i'd like to compare that with marines dropped behind a mineral line, or BF hellion, specially the latter, and tell me that storm is dangerous. Dt's kill much more than storm drops, but i don't see people complaining about them.
3) the fact that terran drops are better, means either toss needs to be able to defend them, or to compensate in some other way. That compensation should be somewhat big, because so is the damage done by terran drops, if you can't defend them. Thus why i think toss needs a strong way of defending terran drops as Ht with storm either ready, or close to ready. And charge zealots ain't gonna cut it. Terran usually either kites, or puts behind a mineral line where zealots don't have surface of attack, or just lift the units up, and go attack somewhere else, while the zealots try to go along the terrain path to reach them again.
4) people should stop comparing spellcasters as if it provided any useful information. It doesn't. Races function differently, and each spellcaster needs to be in touch with what the race needs, not to be equal to the other races' spellcasters.
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On March 02 2011 05:31 DNA61289 wrote:Show nested quote +No...are you kidding me? Terrans do not have a ghost instantenously at any point on the map. You are living in a fantasy land where ghosts are somehow the Terran equivalent of high templar. I'm not theorycrafting, I'm telling you how the game is. Moving workers to stop an HT? Look, I am not going to argue with you here, I'm not theorycrafting, I'm telling you how the game is, as will other good Protoss/Terrans. And I already addressed what typically happens with spotter units or a few units sent to kill a pylon ends up with a round of warp-ins to parry that.
Either way, it does not matter. Templar warp-in has always been very powerful, if not too powerful, which is why Blizzard is removing it. Or you could invest in a 100/100 sensor tower and never have to worry about harass from that side of the map. Also, you can easily build 1 or 2 reapers to deal with proxy pylons.
THANK you, yet another way to deal with warpstorm
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On March 02 2011 05:32 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:25 avilo wrote:On March 02 2011 05:11 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:57 avilo wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:42 avilo wrote:
Lots of protoss players themselves were saying that the amulet is too powerful...so yeah...this chang should have come a while ago. It's bad game design to have a match-up where, "i researched khadyarin now the game is over." Which PvT was sorta devolving into.
I remember playing some off-race as protoss, whenever I got a PvT and managed to get the amulet I won lol.
Now protoss will have to actually prepare a defense...just like SC1. You can still do warp in templar to any point on the map with pylon power, but it can't be ah, "oh shit i didn't defend here, let me warp in 5 templar and make an entire army go bye bye ^_^" I respect your level Avilo, but can't as a Protoss I say now Terran should prepare a defense against warp in storms? The balls in their court; if Terran can't put a single viking on patrol near their natural mineral line to stop the WP, whose fault is that? Protoss players have experienced hellion drops so many times we're used to it and preempt it, why can't Terrans do the same? Terrans do prepare a defense against it...but even in those scenarios if it's an offensive warp-in it's still going to do damage for littel to no effort. Also, we're not even talking warp prisms here, which are absolutely amazing. On maps like xel naga, a lot of P will scatter pylons everywhere on your side of the map, and there are instances where you cannot spare a few units to kill the pylons because T as well must have their army together, and if you send a "few" units to kill a pylon or prism, the Protoss matches those few units with newly warped in ones They're nerfing it because it's been too powerful. It always has been. As for drops, drops are different from warp-ins because drops are not instantly at any single point in the map with zero travel time. And no, a lot of times in PvT drops are not pre-emptively defended by Protoss. Good players do stop drops by being ready, but a large majority of the time newly warped in templar/gateway units stop drops. It's too powerful. Imagine being able to call-down a nuke anywhere on the map...that's essentially what warp-in templar storm is. Maybe Blizz will give that to Terran in an expansion pack ^_^ just kidding lol. Avilo, it takes 1 ghost to stop this. You should have ghosts if you have done scouting right? All you have to do in every case as a Terran is see the templar coming, whether thats from having vision on the high ground, a single forward marine, a single supply depot, whatever. If you see the HT coming, you can move your workers and deal with the HT. The HT is not fast like a hellion, so it can't destroy your scvs as they run. It isn't a seige tank that, together with a few marines, can sit seiged and nail your expansion for minutes on end. It isn't an infestor or a ghost that can become undetectable and avoid death. It IS a unit that is typically killed soon after it has been used once. I don't agree with comparing it to a nuke either, the HT requires a stationary target, surprise, slow reactions, and is clumped with other units in the small template to be effective. No...are you kidding me? Terrans do not have a ghost instantenously at any point on the map. You are living in a fantasy land where ghosts are somehow the Terran equivalent of high templar. I'm not theorycrafting, I'm telling you how the game is. Moving workers to stop an HT? Look, I am not going to argue with you here, I'm not theorycrafting, I'm telling you how the game is, as will other good Protoss/Terrans. And I already addressed what typically happens with spotter units or a few units sent to kill a pylon ends up with a round of warp-ins to parry that. Either way, it does not matter. Templar warp-in has always been very powerful, if not too powerful, which is why Blizzard is removing it. Lots of protoss do fine even without templars, but there are others that literally abuse it to the point where you cannot attack cost effectively. It's basically like 5rax reaper. Could it be stopped? Yes, it could be. Was it too powerful? Yes, it was. They went a bit overboard on something like that basically removing the reaper from competitive play in your army, whereas this will not happen with such a strong unit as the high templar. Okay man, I respect what you said. You do know the game better, but I feel this change is uncalled for and was done to stop a side-effect of the HT/gateway army which is warpstorms. This change then reduces the overall effectiveness of the HT, and will force most P players into the colossus tech path, making the matchup more predictable and favoring Terran. I will say now that if the amulet is removed, there will be balance repercussions in PvT addressed further down the line. If anything, keep the amulet and have it simply increase regeneration rate.
The thing is, even with amulet gone...every protoss is still going to build high templars. They are amazing. The only difference is protoss will adjust their mindset and play to warp them in pre-emptively at an expansion to gather energy and defend it.
It's going from an "oh shit NUKE THEM" button to a more SC1 thing that requires more skill. Though, still easier than SC1 considering you can place a templar anywhere on the map
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On March 02 2011 05:35 EmerTehFreek wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:30 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:26 EmerTehFreek wrote:On March 02 2011 05:21 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:17 EmerTehFreek wrote:
I don't see how the argument that warp in storm is the only way to deal with drops. Pretty sure that a couple well placed cannons can kill a dropship before it even lands? I dont know if i should take this serious. but first off if a terran sees a cannon it wont just barge in there it will drop away from the cannons. then stim and kill the cannons no problem (already tried this before) second static defense cost money, and they dont move. wich means, you lose in army strenght... third he can also just avoid the static kill probes and heal with medi... and run... wanna bet hes being more cost efficient then you.. Obviously you missed the "well placed" part of that. And you're saying Terran doesn't need static Turrets ever? first off turrets are MADE for anti air. cannons are for both air and ground so weaker in that regard because they fire slower and cant kill a medi alone Second it doesnt matter how well placed they are they still get pwned by marauders and cost 150 minerals + pylon placement near back if your counting it was the first drop dropped. 2 cannons can kill a medivac by the time it unloads 2 units. 2 units can kill 2 cannons?
SO what your saying is that i invest 300 minerals atleast in static defense in my mineral line (eventho im protoss and should be teching up) where the terran can just drop his units not directly IN the mineral line but next to the nexus where the cannons cant reach. then proceeds to easily stim and kill off the cannons (lost 300 minerals) and then kill my probes after that?...
sure is balanced... and the attack isnt even held off.
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On March 02 2011 05:22 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:15 Barca wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 DoubleReed wrote:
Erm... under the OP's logic, wouldn't it be totally reasonable to lower the cooldown time of HTs if the Amulet is removed? Actually, under the OP's logic, there shouldn't be a Warpgate cooldown for any unit since it "doesn't matter" when considering the production time. I really miss some kind of "report for spam" button when I read such a sarcasm, its really pointless. Production rate and production time is not same thing. Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:55 Sek-Kuar wrote:
And final, to everyone saying that cooldown of previous unit affect current unit - you are wrong. It affect "production rate", and in SC2 production rate =/= prodution time.
For example reactored Factory can build 4 Helions in minute, but it doesnt mean that production time of Helion is reduced to 15 seconds. It only doubles "production rate".
Another example: Zerg can get 10 Ultralisk from one Hatchery per minute (with no stockpiled larvae)- thats "production rate". Production time is always 70 seconds.
Warpgate timeline:
0:05 HT created (1)
0:45 cooldown expires
0:50 HT created (2)
1:30 cooldown expires
1:35 HT created (3)
2:15 cooldown expires
Barrack with Tech Lab timeline:
0:45 Ghost created (1)
1:30 Ghost created (2)
2:15 Ghost created (3)
So as you can see, you are getting every unit, not just first, with 40 seconds reduced build time.
All that cooldown does is keeping same "production rate".
But it does not affect production time.
I've tried to convince you that your logic is flawed, but you will not listen. Let me try again.
The problem with your argument is that you ignore the big picture. You focus in on the Protoss's ability to warp in, which you call "production time", and the cooldown, which you say only affects "production rate". That is a mistake.
You cannot give examples like Ultras and Helions because those are not Protoss units. Every race has different game mechanics. You cannot compare larvae inject to warpgate cooldown to reactors, they all increase the production capabilities of their respective races.
You ignore the uselessness of the Warpgate while it's on cooldown and you ignore the inherent differences between races.
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