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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 02 2011 05:36 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:35 EmerTehFreek wrote:On March 02 2011 05:30 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:26 EmerTehFreek wrote:On March 02 2011 05:21 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:17 EmerTehFreek wrote:
I don't see how the argument that warp in storm is the only way to deal with drops. Pretty sure that a couple well placed cannons can kill a dropship before it even lands? I dont know if i should take this serious. but first off if a terran sees a cannon it wont just barge in there it will drop away from the cannons. then stim and kill the cannons no problem (already tried this before) second static defense cost money, and they dont move. wich means, you lose in army strenght... third he can also just avoid the static kill probes and heal with medi... and run... wanna bet hes being more cost efficient then you.. Obviously you missed the "well placed" part of that. And you're saying Terran doesn't need static Turrets ever? first off turrets are MADE for anti air. cannons are for both air and ground so weaker in that regard because they fire slower and cant kill a medi alone Second it doesnt matter how well placed they are they still get pwned by marauders and cost 150 minerals + pylon placement near back if your counting it was the first drop dropped. 2 cannons can kill a medivac by the time it unloads 2 units. 2 units can kill 2 cannons? Most terrans don't drop into cannons, they drop just out of range and then outrange the cannons with marauders. Unless you are literally going to cover your base in cannons, you aren't preventing drops with them period.
If you put them at the edge of your base, pretty sure they can't drop out into space.
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On March 02 2011 05:28 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:25 avilo wrote:
No...are you kidding me? Terrans do not have a ghost instantenously at any point on the map. You are living in a fantasy land where ghosts are somehow the Terran equivalent of high templar. I'm not theorycrafting, I'm telling you how the game is. Moving workers to stop an HT? Look, I am not going to argue with you here, I'm not theorycrafting, I'm telling you how the game is, as will other good Protoss/Terrans. And I already addressed what typically happens with spotter units or a few units sent to kill a pylon ends up with a round of warp-ins to parry that.
Either way, it does not matter. Templar warp-in has always been very powerful, if not too powerful, which is why Blizzard is removing it
What kind of terran doesnt have ghosts in a TvP? That's some bronze-level shit right there.
You really can't compare Ghost to Hight Templar.. No matter what, there will always be storm in the end even if you managed to emp succesfully. Its very good for late game TvP that they decided to remove the Amulet from the game.
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On March 02 2011 05:39 Eraz0rZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:35 EmerTehFreek wrote:On March 02 2011 05:30 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:26 EmerTehFreek wrote:On March 02 2011 05:21 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:17 EmerTehFreek wrote:
I don't see how the argument that warp in storm is the only way to deal with drops. Pretty sure that a couple well placed cannons can kill a dropship before it even lands? I dont know if i should take this serious. but first off if a terran sees a cannon it wont just barge in there it will drop away from the cannons. then stim and kill the cannons no problem (already tried this before) second static defense cost money, and they dont move. wich means, you lose in army strenght... third he can also just avoid the static kill probes and heal with medi... and run... wanna bet hes being more cost efficient then you.. Obviously you missed the "well placed" part of that. And you're saying Terran doesn't need static Turrets ever? first off turrets are MADE for anti air. cannons are for both air and ground so weaker in that regard because they fire slower and cant kill a medi alone Second it doesnt matter how well placed they are they still get pwned by marauders and cost 150 minerals + pylon placement near back if your counting it was the first drop dropped. 2 cannons can kill a medivac by the time it unloads 2 units. 2 units can kill 2 cannons? SO what your saying is that i invest 300 minerals atleast in static defense in my mineral line (eventho im protoss and should be teching up) where the terran can just drop his units not directly IN the mineral line but next to the nexus where the cannons cant reach. then proceeds to easily stim and kill off the cannons (lost 300 minerals) and then kill my probes after that?... sure is balanced... and the attack isnt even held off.
Warp-in mechanic, have you heard of it?
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I think people here a flaming unnecessarily. The OP said nothing about balancing gateway units to barracks units. He said nothing about overall gameplay balance, merely that in his opinion, the spellcasting system seems more fair.
Also. People are forgetting that you have to research ghost energy similar to protoss having to research storm. Though its not absolutely necessary to use emp, it adds a significant wait time for you to be using emp. Somebody also said, ghosts hard counter HT. This is true, but keep in mind HTs can just as effectively feedback ghosts. Another point brought up was that HTs cant fight. Well, I'd much rather have an archon than 2 ghosts with 0 energy or 2 infestors with 0 energy.
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On March 02 2011 05:39 Eraz0rZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:35 EmerTehFreek wrote:On March 02 2011 05:30 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:26 EmerTehFreek wrote:On March 02 2011 05:21 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:17 EmerTehFreek wrote:
I don't see how the argument that warp in storm is the only way to deal with drops. Pretty sure that a couple well placed cannons can kill a dropship before it even lands? I dont know if i should take this serious. but first off if a terran sees a cannon it wont just barge in there it will drop away from the cannons. then stim and kill the cannons no problem (already tried this before) second static defense cost money, and they dont move. wich means, you lose in army strenght... third he can also just avoid the static kill probes and heal with medi... and run... wanna bet hes being more cost efficient then you.. Obviously you missed the "well placed" part of that. And you're saying Terran doesn't need static Turrets ever? first off turrets are MADE for anti air. cannons are for both air and ground so weaker in that regard because they fire slower and cant kill a medi alone Second it doesnt matter how well placed they are they still get pwned by marauders and cost 150 minerals + pylon placement near back if your counting it was the first drop dropped. 2 cannons can kill a medivac by the time it unloads 2 units. 2 units can kill 2 cannons? SO what your saying is that i invest 300 minerals atleast in static defense in my mineral line (eventho im protoss and should be teching up) where the terran can just drop his units not directly IN the mineral line but next to the nexus where the cannons cant reach. then proceeds to easily stim and kill off the cannons (lost 300 minerals) and then kill my probes after that?... sure is balanced... and the attack isnt even held off.
more cannons.
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On March 02 2011 05:33 Kralic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:26 Rob28 wrote:
I think the point is that one terran drop will do more damage than any storm warp-in. Especially since storms cant stack. Would you rather have 4 mauraders in your mineral line, or a brief cloud of psionic energy with no follow-through? Really an Archon in your mineral line means that you will just ignore it because they suck? I will gladly love to play against Terran players who ignore HT's in their mineral line because they only get one storm. Marauders also are terrible at killing workers for the amount of shots they need.
First off, a terran base will have static defenses (they are the turtling race after all). If it's TvP there's bound to be a ghost at hand (if not, re-think your TvP game). Archons take time to morph. 2 mauraders in your base can kill it. 1 can kite it. A ghost can EMP it, etc. Besides, I never said I'd ignore an HT in my mineral line; I'd just prefer it to a drop.
If not 4 marauders in a drop, then 8 stimmed marines, fine... still way more effective and dangerous. Kiss your whole worker force goodbye in under 10 seconds. One storm can't even kill an SCV.
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They just need to reintruduce the amulet but instead of +25 energy it should give +18 or whatever.
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On March 02 2011 05:35 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:27 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 05:17 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 05:05 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:42 avilo wrote:
Lots of protoss players themselves were saying that the amulet is too powerful...so yeah...this chang should have come a while ago. It's bad game design to have a match-up where, "i researched khadyarin now the game is over." Which PvT was sorta devolving into.
I remember playing some off-race as protoss, whenever I got a PvT and managed to get the amulet I won lol.
Now protoss will have to actually prepare a defense...just like SC1. You can still do warp in templar to any point on the map with pylon power, but it can't be ah, "oh shit i didn't defend here, let me warp in 5 templar and make an entire army go bye bye ^_^" I respect your level Avilo, but can't as a Protoss I say now Terran should prepare a defense against warp in storms? The balls in their court; if Terran can't put a single viking on patrol near their natural mineral line to stop the WP, whose fault is that? Protoss players have experienced hellion drops so many times we're used to it and preempt it, why can't Terrans do the same? Wait, I find a mishap in your logic. You state that Terran can stop storms by making some vikings to stop incoming Warp Prisms but what about Protoss? Can't they have some High Templar at their expansions to feedback when a medivac comes in? Why don't they just make some phoenixes and patrol their expansions? Also, protoss have one of the most mobile unit in the game, the STALKER. Blink stalker is one of the most mobile units in the game and could be used to defend drops and other forms of harassment. Every suggestion of yours is flawed. You assume the medivac has at least 150 energy, that I have a stargate and phoenix IN ADDITION to my tech path, and that I have stalkers nearby with blink already researched. It's great the stalker is mobile... Does it have to fight MMM too? That's the problem. If I have these mobile stalkers, I need a shitload to defend a drop, and I'm not talking 4 or 5. Terran already have a starport and a reactor if they went bio, which they do most of the time. The argument is that Protoss doesn't have the unit they need, that it exists on a whole different tech path. Terran, however, have instant access to their unit since their techpath has already been reached. Okay, the phoenixes were a bit outrageous. Hmm...true but I just wanted to let you know that i'm talking about late-game drops where the toss has around 3 expansions. In my opinion, toss has the second most easiest way to scout drops by having observers around the map on the lookout which makes it ultra-easy for them. Terran can not say the same about templar drops. And I don't understand what you mean that the stalker has to fight Marine/Medivac/Marauder drop too. Think about it: If a protoss warps in ~5 zealots with CHARGE just when the medivac is dropping, and has three-four blink stalkers supporting them it can take out a 8 marine drop. Case in point, that's 10 supply from the Terran to execute, and 16-18 supply from the P to stop it, not to mention the resource cost: 500/100 for Terran, 875/150 or 1000/200 for Protoss
That's also assuming that you don't build any cannons at your expansion, and haven't scouted the drop before it happened (i.e have observers). 3 cannons can probably hold off a 8-marine drop with ease or at LEAST hold it off until additional reinforcements (2-3 zealots with charge) arrive. And these cannons can also be used to prevent future drops. Also, you must know that if you scouted and warped in stalkers in time before the Medivac comes into the base and STARTS dropping marines, you can easily snipe the medivac and kill the dropped marines.
Another case in point: warp in 2 high templar and get a good storm off that kills all the marines (maybe 2-3 left, which could be nullified with cannons), think about the resources then. Also, those 2 high templar can be used later on.
Anyways, i'm done with this. Let's just see how the game turns out after the patch.
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On March 02 2011 05:32 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:27 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 05:24 Azarkon wrote:
Protoss should really experiment with more phoenixes against MMM mobility play. True, phoenixes get demolished by stimmed marines, but the key to stopping drops is to catch them before they unload, and phoenixes are the ideal air superiority fighters, which give you control of the air space at a level that Terran cannot contest until Battle Cruisers, and I doubt a MMM player is going to go BCs. You do know that vikings can be reactored and are good against phoenixes even without marines, which are found in almost every Terran army, right? This isn't a solution, and it requires a separate tech path that does not handle the real threat which is bio. Sure I can mass phoenix, that way at least I am allowed to lose my base to bio starting from the front rather than the back. Why are you acting like this is the end of the world? There are a ton of players that go collosus/phoenix and have no problems at all versus Terran. Also, templars are not being removed from the game, stop overreacting. There aren't any "solutions" needed. They are already there. Play the game. Also, if you played Terran you'd know reactored vikings aren't as awesome as you are making them out in your post, especially versus phoenixes/collosus/deathball, and versus high templars late game.
It has to do with the fact that having HT allow me to have some sense of strategy, rather than always going colossus --> HT or colossus --> phoenix. I am aware of what unit comps are used, I've seen your replay packs as well.
I would say that they aren't being removed from the game, but they are being removed from any game that goes shorter than about 20 minutes, where they used to be a viable tech path apart from robo on the PTR.
On top of that, it is hard to get a point across (please know that I get your point) when you see wild ass claims about "getting HT pheonix" or putting a trillion cannons and don't address them.
I see the same thing happening to the HT that I did to VR: because they were hard to deal with they were smacked harder than they needed to, and as a result the viability of their tech path suffered and led to a perceived preference by Blizzard for the robo tech path.
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On March 02 2011 05:41 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:28 Rob28 wrote:On March 02 2011 05:25 avilo wrote:
No...are you kidding me? Terrans do not have a ghost instantenously at any point on the map. You are living in a fantasy land where ghosts are somehow the Terran equivalent of high templar. I'm not theorycrafting, I'm telling you how the game is. Moving workers to stop an HT? Look, I am not going to argue with you here, I'm not theorycrafting, I'm telling you how the game is, as will other good Protoss/Terrans. And I already addressed what typically happens with spotter units or a few units sent to kill a pylon ends up with a round of warp-ins to parry that.
Either way, it does not matter. Templar warp-in has always been very powerful, if not too powerful, which is why Blizzard is removing it
What kind of terran doesnt have ghosts in a TvP? That's some bronze-level shit right there. You really can't compare Ghost to Hight Templar.. No matter what, there will always be storm in the end even if you managed to emp succesfully. Its very good for late game TvP that they decided to remove the Amulet from the game.
The same is true in reverse, however. Even if you feedback very well there are still going to be EMPs in the end, and EMPs simply demolish a Protoss army.
With this change, ghosts are going to define this match-up sooner rather than later, though imo they were always going to define it. What made EMP tolerable in part was the ability to warp HTs in instantly with the energy to storm. Now if you get your templars with energy in an EMP it's almost instant GG for the HT Protoss player since no HTs = MMM rolls right through.
Which is yet another reason why I think Phoenix/Colossi play will become more solid vs. Terran after the amulet change.
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What my Problem with nerfing the HT by removing the Amulet is, is that the other techroute for Protoss with AoE (which is pretty much a must-have in the mid/lategame against both Zerg and Terran), is much more imbalanced than the HT, especially against Zerg.
With the HT nerfed, I fear that all we'll see is the totally OP Deathball, just because the alternative is getting even more weakened (not that HT's are weak in ZvP, but the alternative is just much better, especially if Blizzard keeps throwing small Maps in the Ladderpool).
I also think it's a bit stupid to keep removing stuff from the game and not replacing it with anything new. Toss already had their Speed-Upgrade for the VR removed and got nothing to replace it with.
I look at balancing atm. very much from a "making the game more fun/interesting-Perspective" which pretty much means enabling new strategies to be used (could be done by buffing/completely revamping Skills/Spells/Units/Upgrades, like Carriers, HSM, Neural Parasite and other underused Skills/Spells/Units/Upgrades). Blizzard is not only NOT doing that, but also removes Upgrades that limit the number of Strategies that can or will be used (the HT-nerf won't make the HT UP, but with the good other Options, it's likely we'l see almost no HT's in at least ZvP and PvP anyways).
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This change will break the game just like roaches going down to 1 armor broke the game for zerg and siege tank damage nerf broke the game for terran and warp research time getting nerfed broke the game for protoss.
Every single person who has gotten upset in this thread has absolutely no ACTUAL foresight into what is actually going to happen with protoss. I mean sure they could be smart enough to look at it, but there are gonna be people claiming every single change in the game is a nerf and makes x race OP. Just because you're one of the people saying something like that doesn't make statements like that reasonable.
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On March 02 2011 04:50 Kazang wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:48 dragonblade369 wrote:On March 02 2011 04:44 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 04:40 Wrongspeedy wrote:What Protoss players were complaining about Warp-gate? While your number crunching, tell me how long it takes you to get a ghost with an emp in a real 1v1 game, then tell me how long it takes to do the same with an HT and storm. Why can't the ghost and infestor move after he is done being made? + Show Spoiler +"What does this mean?
When production is triggered by something, lets say when you notice enemy coming towards you and start producing Ghost, Infestor or HT, it will look like this.
If Zerg has free larva, and energy upgrade for Infestors researched, it will take 50 seconds to get Infestor with 75 energy, and then Infestor has to move where is needed.
If Terran has non-occupied Barrack, and energy upgrade for Ghosts researched, it will take 45 seconds to get Ghost with 75 energy, and then Ghost has to move where is needed.
If Protoss has non-occupied Warpgate, and Khaydarin Amulet is not researched, it will take 49,5 seconds to get HT with 75 energy, and HT will be ready where is needed." You forgot to mention we have to research storm*. You sound like a troll (okay not a troll, but someone who justifiably hates High Templar) trying to justify a patch that may or may not come (I actually hope it does come. I want stim increased research time, some change to the amulet, and even a zerg buff). And your comparing different units on different races with different costs and timings, things should not always be equal, and those are vary tough comparisons to make (if you could I bet you could balance this game). You could even argue that ghost play at this point is underdeveloped in a lot of Terran players. Its a unit I think even pros still have untapped potential for (so many abilities inc. Nuke O.o). But as a Protoss player I will admit that yes warping in storms at will does indeed feel ridiculous at times, though absolutely necessary in some situations hehehe. I just wanted to ask you, in what situations is warping in storms absolutely necessary? It's one of few things that protoss had to defend against drops... You mean one of the many ways protoss can defend against drops, alongside cannons, feedback, blink stalkers, the fastest air unit in the game, just having dudes defend your base just like zerg has to.
Cannons + Gateway is not enough to stop 3 dropships of marine/marauder. Even if you have 3-4 cannons, no more than 1 or 2 cannons will be in range. Marauders destroy cannons and barely take any damage from it. Warped in Zeals/Stalkers are worthless against MMM, even in small numbers.
So yea, warped in templar is one of the few options that Protoss has that actually can stop a drop. It's still not cost-effective because that templar is guaranteed to die but at least you can keep the expansion. Feedback is hit or miss. If you don't destroy the medivac, it isn't worth it.
Zerg has zerglings which can overwhelm a drop. You can get 4-6 zerglings for a single marauder. For Protoss, you can only get 1 to 1.5 zealots, depending on how worth of gas. And it doesn't even matter because zealots cannot out-DPS medivac healing nor can they deal with being conc shell-kited.
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On March 02 2011 05:41 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:39 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:35 EmerTehFreek wrote:On March 02 2011 05:30 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:26 EmerTehFreek wrote:On March 02 2011 05:21 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:17 EmerTehFreek wrote:
I don't see how the argument that warp in storm is the only way to deal with drops. Pretty sure that a couple well placed cannons can kill a dropship before it even lands? I dont know if i should take this serious. but first off if a terran sees a cannon it wont just barge in there it will drop away from the cannons. then stim and kill the cannons no problem (already tried this before) second static defense cost money, and they dont move. wich means, you lose in army strenght... third he can also just avoid the static kill probes and heal with medi... and run... wanna bet hes being more cost efficient then you.. Obviously you missed the "well placed" part of that. And you're saying Terran doesn't need static Turrets ever? first off turrets are MADE for anti air. cannons are for both air and ground so weaker in that regard because they fire slower and cant kill a medi alone Second it doesnt matter how well placed they are they still get pwned by marauders and cost 150 minerals + pylon placement near back if your counting it was the first drop dropped. 2 cannons can kill a medivac by the time it unloads 2 units. 2 units can kill 2 cannons? SO what your saying is that i invest 300 minerals atleast in static defense in my mineral line (eventho im protoss and should be teching up) where the terran can just drop his units not directly IN the mineral line but next to the nexus where the cannons cant reach. then proceeds to easily stim and kill off the cannons (lost 300 minerals) and then kill my probes after that?... sure is balanced... and the attack isnt even held off. Warp-in mechanic, have you heard of it?
You still dont understand that i cant invest 300 minerals on cannons wich are going to be useless AND warp in units wich are obviously weaker (EVERYONE CHECK EARLY GAME PROTOSS WITHOUT SENTRIES NOW!) just to hold off a single drop? let alone if my warpgates arent on cooldown on anything because i just warped in units on the offensive.... thats what most terran also forget... the cooldown for defending a drop. I mean its a whole different world TvT then PvT...
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On March 02 2011 05:44 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:35 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 05:27 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 05:17 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 05:05 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:42 avilo wrote:
Lots of protoss players themselves were saying that the amulet is too powerful...so yeah...this chang should have come a while ago. It's bad game design to have a match-up where, "i researched khadyarin now the game is over." Which PvT was sorta devolving into.
I remember playing some off-race as protoss, whenever I got a PvT and managed to get the amulet I won lol.
Now protoss will have to actually prepare a defense...just like SC1. You can still do warp in templar to any point on the map with pylon power, but it can't be ah, "oh shit i didn't defend here, let me warp in 5 templar and make an entire army go bye bye ^_^" I respect your level Avilo, but can't as a Protoss I say now Terran should prepare a defense against warp in storms? The balls in their court; if Terran can't put a single viking on patrol near their natural mineral line to stop the WP, whose fault is that? Protoss players have experienced hellion drops so many times we're used to it and preempt it, why can't Terrans do the same? Wait, I find a mishap in your logic. You state that Terran can stop storms by making some vikings to stop incoming Warp Prisms but what about Protoss? Can't they have some High Templar at their expansions to feedback when a medivac comes in? Why don't they just make some phoenixes and patrol their expansions? Also, protoss have one of the most mobile unit in the game, the STALKER. Blink stalker is one of the most mobile units in the game and could be used to defend drops and other forms of harassment. Every suggestion of yours is flawed. You assume the medivac has at least 150 energy, that I have a stargate and phoenix IN ADDITION to my tech path, and that I have stalkers nearby with blink already researched. It's great the stalker is mobile... Does it have to fight MMM too? That's the problem. If I have these mobile stalkers, I need a shitload to defend a drop, and I'm not talking 4 or 5. Terran already have a starport and a reactor if they went bio, which they do most of the time. The argument is that Protoss doesn't have the unit they need, that it exists on a whole different tech path. Terran, however, have instant access to their unit since their techpath has already been reached. Okay, the phoenixes were a bit outrageous. Hmm...true but I just wanted to let you know that i'm talking about late-game drops where the toss has around 3 expansions. In my opinion, toss has the second most easiest way to scout drops by having observers around the map on the lookout which makes it ultra-easy for them. Terran can not say the same about templar drops. And I don't understand what you mean that the stalker has to fight Marine/Medivac/Marauder drop too. Think about it: If a protoss warps in ~5 zealots with CHARGE just when the medivac is dropping, and has three-four blink stalkers supporting them it can take out a 8 marine drop. Case in point, that's 10 supply from the Terran to execute, and 16-18 supply from the P to stop it, not to mention the resource cost: 500/100 for Terran, 875/150 or 1000/200 for Protoss That's also assuming that you don't build any cannons at your expansion, and haven't scouted the drop before it happened (i.e have observers). 3 cannons can probably hold off a 8-marine drop with ease or at LEAST hold it off until additional reinforcements (2-3 zealots with charge) arrive. And these cannons can also be used to prevent future drops. Also, you must know that if you scouted and warped in stalkers in time before the Medivac comes into the base and STARTS dropping marines, you can easily snipe the medivac and kill the dropped marines. Another case in point: warp in 2 high templar and get a good storm off that kills all the marines (maybe 2-3 left, which could be nullified with cannons), think about the resources then. Also, those 2 high templar can be used later on. Anyways, i'm done with this. Let's just see how the game turns out after the patch.
I went HT, why do I have a bunch of free observers floating around spotting drops instead of sighting your army in your example?
Also, snipe is a ghost ability. Ours is called feedback, and it requires the medivac to have 150+ energy 
Your other case in point is countered by the fact that you have MULEs, and when you lose mineral only units like the marine, replacing them given the proper infrastructure is not a concern. Those HT, however, are 50/150/2 dead weight for the next 133 seconds.
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On March 02 2011 05:47 Eraz0rZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:41 avilo wrote:On March 02 2011 05:39 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:35 EmerTehFreek wrote:On March 02 2011 05:30 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:26 EmerTehFreek wrote:On March 02 2011 05:21 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:17 EmerTehFreek wrote:
I don't see how the argument that warp in storm is the only way to deal with drops. Pretty sure that a couple well placed cannons can kill a dropship before it even lands? I dont know if i should take this serious. but first off if a terran sees a cannon it wont just barge in there it will drop away from the cannons. then stim and kill the cannons no problem (already tried this before) second static defense cost money, and they dont move. wich means, you lose in army strenght... third he can also just avoid the static kill probes and heal with medi... and run... wanna bet hes being more cost efficient then you.. Obviously you missed the "well placed" part of that. And you're saying Terran doesn't need static Turrets ever? first off turrets are MADE for anti air. cannons are for both air and ground so weaker in that regard because they fire slower and cant kill a medi alone Second it doesnt matter how well placed they are they still get pwned by marauders and cost 150 minerals + pylon placement near back if your counting it was the first drop dropped. 2 cannons can kill a medivac by the time it unloads 2 units. 2 units can kill 2 cannons? SO what your saying is that i invest 300 minerals atleast in static defense in my mineral line (eventho im protoss and should be teching up) where the terran can just drop his units not directly IN the mineral line but next to the nexus where the cannons cant reach. then proceeds to easily stim and kill off the cannons (lost 300 minerals) and then kill my probes after that?... sure is balanced... and the attack isnt even held off. Warp-in mechanic, have you heard of it? You still dont understand that i cant invest 300 minerals on cannons wich are going to be useless AND warp in units wich are obviously weaker (EVERYONE CHECK EARLY GAME PROTOSS WITHOUT SENTRIES NOW!) just to hold off a single drop? let alone if my warpgates arent on cooldown on anything because i just warped in units on the offensive.... thats what most terran also forget... the cooldown for defending a drop. I mean its a whole different world TvT then PvT...
You act like drops do nothing against Zerg and Terran and are incredibly good against Protoss.
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On March 02 2011 05:45 0mar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:50 Kazang wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 dragonblade369 wrote:On March 02 2011 04:44 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 04:40 Wrongspeedy wrote:What Protoss players were complaining about Warp-gate? While your number crunching, tell me how long it takes you to get a ghost with an emp in a real 1v1 game, then tell me how long it takes to do the same with an HT and storm. Why can't the ghost and infestor move after he is done being made? + Show Spoiler +"What does this mean?
When production is triggered by something, lets say when you notice enemy coming towards you and start producing Ghost, Infestor or HT, it will look like this.
If Zerg has free larva, and energy upgrade for Infestors researched, it will take 50 seconds to get Infestor with 75 energy, and then Infestor has to move where is needed.
If Terran has non-occupied Barrack, and energy upgrade for Ghosts researched, it will take 45 seconds to get Ghost with 75 energy, and then Ghost has to move where is needed.
If Protoss has non-occupied Warpgate, and Khaydarin Amulet is not researched, it will take 49,5 seconds to get HT with 75 energy, and HT will be ready where is needed." You forgot to mention we have to research storm*. You sound like a troll (okay not a troll, but someone who justifiably hates High Templar) trying to justify a patch that may or may not come (I actually hope it does come. I want stim increased research time, some change to the amulet, and even a zerg buff). And your comparing different units on different races with different costs and timings, things should not always be equal, and those are vary tough comparisons to make (if you could I bet you could balance this game). You could even argue that ghost play at this point is underdeveloped in a lot of Terran players. Its a unit I think even pros still have untapped potential for (so many abilities inc. Nuke O.o). But as a Protoss player I will admit that yes warping in storms at will does indeed feel ridiculous at times, though absolutely necessary in some situations hehehe. I just wanted to ask you, in what situations is warping in storms absolutely necessary? It's one of few things that protoss had to defend against drops... You mean one of the many ways protoss can defend against drops, alongside cannons, feedback, blink stalkers, the fastest air unit in the game, just having dudes defend your base just like zerg has to. Cannons + Gateway is not enough to stop 3 dropships of marine/marauder. Even if you have 3-4 cannons, no more than 1 or 2 cannons will be in range. Marauders destroy cannons and barely take any damage from it. Warped in Zeals/Stalkers are worthless against MMM, even in small numbers. So yea, warped in templar is one of the few options that Protoss has that actually can stop a drop. It's still not cost-effective because that templar is guaranteed to die but at least you can keep the expansion. Feedback is hit or miss. If you don't destroy the medivac, it isn't worth it. Zerg has zerglings which can overwhelm a drop. You can get 4-6 zerglings for a single marauder. For Protoss, you can only get 1 to 1.5 zealots, depending on how worth of gas. And it doesn't even matter because zealots cannot out-DPS medivac healing nor can they deal with being conc shell-kited.
It needs to be said that amulet HTs are a late-game solution to drops, not an early game solution to drops. Early game is the same as always - you have to anticipate drops and stop them with your army.
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As a Protoss player, I do agree that HT with the energy upgrade seems a bit too powerful, especially in PvT but there's a lot that you need to take into consideration and that's how each race functions. Yes maybe this will "balance" the casters but does balancing the casters justify balancing the game overall?
No because like many have probably said, it's up to Protoss to tech quicker than the other races because of how inferior gateway units are compared to the bio and the early-mid Zerg composition (Zergling/Roach/Hydra). So with that Protoss has to get Colossus or tech to HTs. Once Terran has a sufficient amount of vikings, Colossus begins to become inefficient so Protoss has to tech switch to HT and research storm to counter the typical bio ball Terran aims for. If you remove the Khaydarin Amulet, Protoss has to preemptively wait until they have enough energy to storm the other Terran bio ball. But a single EMP can negate multiple HTs and their ability to storm.
"But then you should spread your HTs" (the typical response from a Terran). I agree we should spread our units but why shouldn't Terran spread their units as well to make storm less effective? A single storm (without beforehand damage) can kill multiple ghosts. But we have feedback but once again that can negate just ONE ghost then. Both can do FF damage but for the sake of Terrans, the only time it would hurt them is if they EMP their Medivacs or Orbital Command (somehow) where storm does damage to our own units charging in because of the AI chasing kiting/retreating bio units. Which also brings up another point that storm isn't where all 80 damage happens instantaneously whereas the EMP does as well. So using your analysis, should Blizzard make it where storms automatically do 80 damage instantly to "balance" the casters?
Honestly I think that they should keep the energy upgrade but make it have 63 energy when warped in as well as increasing the maximum energy of HTs when researched. Or have it where there's an extra cooldown when HTs are warped in with 75 energy so they can't instantly storm when warped in. Something to prevent instant storming but increasing the initial energy of HTs, I think would justify this issue.
Just my thoughts on it.
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On March 02 2011 05:47 Eraz0rZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:41 avilo wrote:On March 02 2011 05:39 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:35 EmerTehFreek wrote:On March 02 2011 05:30 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:26 EmerTehFreek wrote:On March 02 2011 05:21 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:17 EmerTehFreek wrote:
I don't see how the argument that warp in storm is the only way to deal with drops. Pretty sure that a couple well placed cannons can kill a dropship before it even lands? I dont know if i should take this serious. but first off if a terran sees a cannon it wont just barge in there it will drop away from the cannons. then stim and kill the cannons no problem (already tried this before) second static defense cost money, and they dont move. wich means, you lose in army strenght... third he can also just avoid the static kill probes and heal with medi... and run... wanna bet hes being more cost efficient then you.. Obviously you missed the "well placed" part of that. And you're saying Terran doesn't need static Turrets ever? first off turrets are MADE for anti air. cannons are for both air and ground so weaker in that regard because they fire slower and cant kill a medi alone Second it doesnt matter how well placed they are they still get pwned by marauders and cost 150 minerals + pylon placement near back if your counting it was the first drop dropped. 2 cannons can kill a medivac by the time it unloads 2 units. 2 units can kill 2 cannons? SO what your saying is that i invest 300 minerals atleast in static defense in my mineral line (eventho im protoss and should be teching up) where the terran can just drop his units not directly IN the mineral line but next to the nexus where the cannons cant reach. then proceeds to easily stim and kill off the cannons (lost 300 minerals) and then kill my probes after that?... sure is balanced... and the attack isnt even held off. Warp-in mechanic, have you heard of it? You still dont understand that i cant invest 300 minerals on cannons wich are going to be useless AND warp in units wich are obviously weaker (EVERYONE CHECK EARLY GAME PROTOSS WITHOUT SENTRIES NOW!) just to hold off a single drop? let alone if my warpgates arent on cooldown on anything because i just warped in units on the offensive.... thats what most terran also forget... the cooldown for defending a drop. I mean its a whole different world TvT then PvT...
Dude it's Avilo trust me he knows :D
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On March 02 2011 05:45 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:41 Everlong wrote:On March 02 2011 05:28 Rob28 wrote:On March 02 2011 05:25 avilo wrote:
No...are you kidding me? Terrans do not have a ghost instantenously at any point on the map. You are living in a fantasy land where ghosts are somehow the Terran equivalent of high templar. I'm not theorycrafting, I'm telling you how the game is. Moving workers to stop an HT? Look, I am not going to argue with you here, I'm not theorycrafting, I'm telling you how the game is, as will other good Protoss/Terrans. And I already addressed what typically happens with spotter units or a few units sent to kill a pylon ends up with a round of warp-ins to parry that.
Either way, it does not matter. Templar warp-in has always been very powerful, if not too powerful, which is why Blizzard is removing it
What kind of terran doesnt have ghosts in a TvP? That's some bronze-level shit right there. You really can't compare Ghost to Hight Templar.. No matter what, there will always be storm in the end even if you managed to emp succesfully. Its very good for late game TvP that they decided to remove the Amulet from the game. The same is true in reverse, however. Even if you feedback very well there are still going to be EMPs in the end, and EMPs simply demolish a Protoss army. With this change, ghosts are going to define this match-up sooner rather than later, though imo they were always going to define it. What made EMP tolerable in part was the ability to warp HTs in instantly with the energy to storm. Now if you get your templars with energy in an EMP it's almost instant GG for the HT Protoss player since no HTs = MMM rolls right through. Which is yet another reason why I think Phoenix/Colossi play will become more solid vs. Terran after the amulet change.
Protoss player always has access to more storms (and faster) then Terran player to EMPs. The issue here is not Ghost vs HT. The problem here is the access to storm. If you want to compare pure EMP and Storm, well, we can discuss that.
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EPT
