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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 02 2011 06:01 Kralic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:59 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 05:55 kickinhead wrote:On March 02 2011 05:45 0mar wrote:On March 02 2011 04:50 Kazang wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 dragonblade369 wrote:On March 02 2011 04:44 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 04:40 Wrongspeedy wrote:What Protoss players were complaining about Warp-gate? While your number crunching, tell me how long it takes you to get a ghost with an emp in a real 1v1 game, then tell me how long it takes to do the same with an HT and storm. Why can't the ghost and infestor move after he is done being made? + Show Spoiler +"What does this mean?
When production is triggered by something, lets say when you notice enemy coming towards you and start producing Ghost, Infestor or HT, it will look like this.
If Zerg has free larva, and energy upgrade for Infestors researched, it will take 50 seconds to get Infestor with 75 energy, and then Infestor has to move where is needed.
If Terran has non-occupied Barrack, and energy upgrade for Ghosts researched, it will take 45 seconds to get Ghost with 75 energy, and then Ghost has to move where is needed.
If Protoss has non-occupied Warpgate, and Khaydarin Amulet is not researched, it will take 49,5 seconds to get HT with 75 energy, and HT will be ready where is needed." You forgot to mention we have to research storm*. You sound like a troll (okay not a troll, but someone who justifiably hates High Templar) trying to justify a patch that may or may not come (I actually hope it does come. I want stim increased research time, some change to the amulet, and even a zerg buff). And your comparing different units on different races with different costs and timings, things should not always be equal, and those are vary tough comparisons to make (if you could I bet you could balance this game). You could even argue that ghost play at this point is underdeveloped in a lot of Terran players. Its a unit I think even pros still have untapped potential for (so many abilities inc. Nuke O.o). But as a Protoss player I will admit that yes warping in storms at will does indeed feel ridiculous at times, though absolutely necessary in some situations hehehe. I just wanted to ask you, in what situations is warping in storms absolutely necessary? It's one of few things that protoss had to defend against drops... You mean one of the many ways protoss can defend against drops, alongside cannons, feedback, blink stalkers, the fastest air unit in the game, just having dudes defend your base just like zerg has to. Cannons + Gateway is not enough to stop 3 dropships of marine/marauder. Even if you have 3-4 cannons, no more than 1 or 2 cannons will be in range. Marauders destroy cannons and barely take any damage from it. Warped in Zeals/Stalkers are worthless against MMM, even in small numbers. So yea, warped in templar is one of the few options that Protoss has that actually can stop a drop. It's still not cost-effective because that templar is guaranteed to die but at least you can keep the expansion. Feedback is hit or miss. If you don't destroy the medivac, it isn't worth it. Zerg has zerglings which can overwhelm a drop. You can get 4-6 zerglings for a single marauder. For Protoss, you can only get 1 to 1.5 zealots, depending on how worth of gas. And it doesn't even matter because zealots cannot out-DPS medivac healing nor can they deal with being conc shell-kited. You realize that Zerg doesn't have any Warp-In-abilities AT ALL and still has to somehow defend against Terran-Drops. Also, Zerglings might be strong against Marauders, but which Terran drops Marauders in a Zerg-base? Atm. almost all drops are either Marines or Hellions, which do pretty well against Zerglings, if it's not a ridiculous large amount. Protoss still has the ability to either warp in Stalkers or just leave a HT at each Expansion and Cannon up a bit, which was also what they had to do in SC:BW and it worked well. Also, it's possible to Warp-in a HT and Feedback, which will completely negate any healing from the Dropship and maybe even kill it. Zerg can make 12-20 units at once off of 2-3 unit producing structures. Additionally, Zerg can acquire drones faster (theoretically, depends on game) than any other race, making them have access to more resources sooner Why don't you try dropping Terran and abusing their production capabilities then, since Protoss seems to be the most vulnerable race for getting dropped apparently? What is stopping you?
Protoss drops are viable, but are usually not cost efficient because you need an extra unit, unlike Terran who has medivacs lying around anyways in standard play.
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It's not our fault every single Terran decides to smash their head with, and with ONLY barrack units. And of course medivacs.
The fact, that they find it OP that the T3 unit, that requires most tech (both amulet and storm upgrade to be useful) overpowered.
I think battlecruisers are OP. They killed my 4 stalkers.
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On March 02 2011 06:04 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 06:01 Kralic wrote:On March 02 2011 05:59 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 05:55 kickinhead wrote:On March 02 2011 05:45 0mar wrote:On March 02 2011 04:50 Kazang wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 dragonblade369 wrote:On March 02 2011 04:44 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 04:40 Wrongspeedy wrote:What Protoss players were complaining about Warp-gate? While your number crunching, tell me how long it takes you to get a ghost with an emp in a real 1v1 game, then tell me how long it takes to do the same with an HT and storm. Why can't the ghost and infestor move after he is done being made? + Show Spoiler +"What does this mean?
When production is triggered by something, lets say when you notice enemy coming towards you and start producing Ghost, Infestor or HT, it will look like this.
If Zerg has free larva, and energy upgrade for Infestors researched, it will take 50 seconds to get Infestor with 75 energy, and then Infestor has to move where is needed.
If Terran has non-occupied Barrack, and energy upgrade for Ghosts researched, it will take 45 seconds to get Ghost with 75 energy, and then Ghost has to move where is needed.
If Protoss has non-occupied Warpgate, and Khaydarin Amulet is not researched, it will take 49,5 seconds to get HT with 75 energy, and HT will be ready where is needed." You forgot to mention we have to research storm*. You sound like a troll (okay not a troll, but someone who justifiably hates High Templar) trying to justify a patch that may or may not come (I actually hope it does come. I want stim increased research time, some change to the amulet, and even a zerg buff). And your comparing different units on different races with different costs and timings, things should not always be equal, and those are vary tough comparisons to make (if you could I bet you could balance this game). You could even argue that ghost play at this point is underdeveloped in a lot of Terran players. Its a unit I think even pros still have untapped potential for (so many abilities inc. Nuke O.o). But as a Protoss player I will admit that yes warping in storms at will does indeed feel ridiculous at times, though absolutely necessary in some situations hehehe. I just wanted to ask you, in what situations is warping in storms absolutely necessary? It's one of few things that protoss had to defend against drops... You mean one of the many ways protoss can defend against drops, alongside cannons, feedback, blink stalkers, the fastest air unit in the game, just having dudes defend your base just like zerg has to. Cannons + Gateway is not enough to stop 3 dropships of marine/marauder. Even if you have 3-4 cannons, no more than 1 or 2 cannons will be in range. Marauders destroy cannons and barely take any damage from it. Warped in Zeals/Stalkers are worthless against MMM, even in small numbers. So yea, warped in templar is one of the few options that Protoss has that actually can stop a drop. It's still not cost-effective because that templar is guaranteed to die but at least you can keep the expansion. Feedback is hit or miss. If you don't destroy the medivac, it isn't worth it. Zerg has zerglings which can overwhelm a drop. You can get 4-6 zerglings for a single marauder. For Protoss, you can only get 1 to 1.5 zealots, depending on how worth of gas. And it doesn't even matter because zealots cannot out-DPS medivac healing nor can they deal with being conc shell-kited. You realize that Zerg doesn't have any Warp-In-abilities AT ALL and still has to somehow defend against Terran-Drops. Also, Zerglings might be strong against Marauders, but which Terran drops Marauders in a Zerg-base? Atm. almost all drops are either Marines or Hellions, which do pretty well against Zerglings, if it's not a ridiculous large amount. Protoss still has the ability to either warp in Stalkers or just leave a HT at each Expansion and Cannon up a bit, which was also what they had to do in SC:BW and it worked well. Also, it's possible to Warp-in a HT and Feedback, which will completely negate any healing from the Dropship and maybe even kill it. Zerg can make 12-20 units at once off of 2-3 unit producing structures. Additionally, Zerg can acquire drones faster (theoretically, depends on game) than any other race, making them have access to more resources sooner Why don't you try dropping Terran and abusing their production capabilities then, since Protoss seems to be the most vulnerable race for getting dropped apparently? What is stopping you? Protoss drops are viable, but are usually not cost efficient because you need an extra unit, unlike Terran who has medivacs lying around anyways in standard play.
Maybe Protoss need to include warp prisms in their "standard" play.
TL open 15 spoiler below:
+ Show Spoiler +Hasu did awesome with his warp prism play in PvT when he beat McLeod in the finals. Maybe he is onto something.
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On March 02 2011 06:00 Feb wrote:
the way i see it basically this shift is to prevent ht from being a reactionary unit and something that you actively plan to incorporate into your build. no longer can you scout poorly and figure if he drops me i'll just warp in ht. you need to protect mineral lines now with cannon (seriously two cannons at every mineral line easily deters a drop and buys enough time for stalkers against a muta harass (not that storms were particularly effective against a good zerg with mutas anyway) and usually allows you to counter/base race for a win if they overcommit with a force that that doesn't beat and is about even to the two spines one spore zerg use and the missile turrets everywhere strategy many terrans employ). you can still ht drop (though proxy warp in is pretty nerfed), and phoenixes are the intended support unit to support collossi (with other patch changes suggesting that blizzard really wants people using more phoenix anyway). in general it's a minor nerf that slightly slows protoss lategame, but if you've been defending correctly you should still win with any old strategy that included ht you'll just have to wait a bit before pushing out once your army is maxed.
The effect is farther reaching, however. HT will no longer be a tech path to be considered with colossus. This forces P into very predictable build patterns, of which Terran gets the better part of the argument, being able to know without scouting that the P player has to go colossus or die to bio. This will lead P to getting phoenix, which will move to a more mainstream role instead of a niche, and move HT from a more mainstream role in certain builds to a niche. Between the two, colo/phoenix is more expensive, time consuming, supply heavy, and immobile (since both colossus and phoenix cannot be warped in) compared to what the Terran can now do without the threat of the 1HT 3 zeal drop defense.
This also will move the ghost to a more niche role, where the decreasing amounts of PvTs that see any HT lead to a decrease of ghost play as well.
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On March 02 2011 06:04 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 06:01 Kralic wrote:On March 02 2011 05:59 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 05:55 kickinhead wrote:On March 02 2011 05:45 0mar wrote:On March 02 2011 04:50 Kazang wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 dragonblade369 wrote:On March 02 2011 04:44 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 04:40 Wrongspeedy wrote:What Protoss players were complaining about Warp-gate? While your number crunching, tell me how long it takes you to get a ghost with an emp in a real 1v1 game, then tell me how long it takes to do the same with an HT and storm. Why can't the ghost and infestor move after he is done being made? + Show Spoiler +"What does this mean?
When production is triggered by something, lets say when you notice enemy coming towards you and start producing Ghost, Infestor or HT, it will look like this.
If Zerg has free larva, and energy upgrade for Infestors researched, it will take 50 seconds to get Infestor with 75 energy, and then Infestor has to move where is needed.
If Terran has non-occupied Barrack, and energy upgrade for Ghosts researched, it will take 45 seconds to get Ghost with 75 energy, and then Ghost has to move where is needed.
If Protoss has non-occupied Warpgate, and Khaydarin Amulet is not researched, it will take 49,5 seconds to get HT with 75 energy, and HT will be ready where is needed." You forgot to mention we have to research storm*. You sound like a troll (okay not a troll, but someone who justifiably hates High Templar) trying to justify a patch that may or may not come (I actually hope it does come. I want stim increased research time, some change to the amulet, and even a zerg buff). And your comparing different units on different races with different costs and timings, things should not always be equal, and those are vary tough comparisons to make (if you could I bet you could balance this game). You could even argue that ghost play at this point is underdeveloped in a lot of Terran players. Its a unit I think even pros still have untapped potential for (so many abilities inc. Nuke O.o). But as a Protoss player I will admit that yes warping in storms at will does indeed feel ridiculous at times, though absolutely necessary in some situations hehehe. I just wanted to ask you, in what situations is warping in storms absolutely necessary? It's one of few things that protoss had to defend against drops... You mean one of the many ways protoss can defend against drops, alongside cannons, feedback, blink stalkers, the fastest air unit in the game, just having dudes defend your base just like zerg has to. Cannons + Gateway is not enough to stop 3 dropships of marine/marauder. Even if you have 3-4 cannons, no more than 1 or 2 cannons will be in range. Marauders destroy cannons and barely take any damage from it. Warped in Zeals/Stalkers are worthless against MMM, even in small numbers. So yea, warped in templar is one of the few options that Protoss has that actually can stop a drop. It's still not cost-effective because that templar is guaranteed to die but at least you can keep the expansion. Feedback is hit or miss. If you don't destroy the medivac, it isn't worth it. Zerg has zerglings which can overwhelm a drop. You can get 4-6 zerglings for a single marauder. For Protoss, you can only get 1 to 1.5 zealots, depending on how worth of gas. And it doesn't even matter because zealots cannot out-DPS medivac healing nor can they deal with being conc shell-kited. You realize that Zerg doesn't have any Warp-In-abilities AT ALL and still has to somehow defend against Terran-Drops. Also, Zerglings might be strong against Marauders, but which Terran drops Marauders in a Zerg-base? Atm. almost all drops are either Marines or Hellions, which do pretty well against Zerglings, if it's not a ridiculous large amount. Protoss still has the ability to either warp in Stalkers or just leave a HT at each Expansion and Cannon up a bit, which was also what they had to do in SC:BW and it worked well. Also, it's possible to Warp-in a HT and Feedback, which will completely negate any healing from the Dropship and maybe even kill it. Zerg can make 12-20 units at once off of 2-3 unit producing structures. Additionally, Zerg can acquire drones faster (theoretically, depends on game) than any other race, making them have access to more resources sooner Why don't you try dropping Terran and abusing their production capabilities then, since Protoss seems to be the most vulnerable race for getting dropped apparently? What is stopping you? Protoss drops are viable, but are usually not cost efficient because you need an extra unit, unlike Terran who has medivacs lying around anyways in standard play.
What's wrong with warp prisms lying around? you can unpack them behind your army and reinforce as well. both units make the battle last longer
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appart from all the theorycrafting here i am going to try to play toss without amulet and see how i will be doing.
Since i do think practise is more important then theory. maybe it isnt so bad. because theres one thing i have not yet thought about.
The timing window when you have your very first templar when your opponent has not scouted you yet.
and your moving out. Can it be that if you move from your own base to your opponents base the templar will be having 75 energy and instead of using it as a reactionary unit you just go after it after collosi tech (what feb said made me think)
But still i do not see how we as toss are supposed to fight ghost on an even battle. (wich is my reall main concern)
ghost are invisible even when not cloaked blending in the MMM army they are faster more mobile and deplete ALL toss energy/half health and what do we have? if we have a toss ball we are easy victims of EMP when moving cuz i cant control 5 different army groups just for 1 attack with each taking a different attack route
when collosi get to a crit mass and mass vikings are insta produced (cuz terran can do that) we cant do anything because of ghost nullifying our storms wich we use to stop vikings with at that stage of the game.
(im talking lateeee game here)
ofcourse mass storm shouldnt obliterate a 200/200 army.. but should EMP do that then?...
thats my reall question about what to be done here.
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On March 02 2011 06:04 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 06:01 Kralic wrote:On March 02 2011 05:59 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 05:55 kickinhead wrote:On March 02 2011 05:45 0mar wrote:On March 02 2011 04:50 Kazang wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 dragonblade369 wrote:On March 02 2011 04:44 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 04:40 Wrongspeedy wrote:What Protoss players were complaining about Warp-gate? While your number crunching, tell me how long it takes you to get a ghost with an emp in a real 1v1 game, then tell me how long it takes to do the same with an HT and storm. Why can't the ghost and infestor move after he is done being made? + Show Spoiler +"What does this mean?
When production is triggered by something, lets say when you notice enemy coming towards you and start producing Ghost, Infestor or HT, it will look like this.
If Zerg has free larva, and energy upgrade for Infestors researched, it will take 50 seconds to get Infestor with 75 energy, and then Infestor has to move where is needed.
If Terran has non-occupied Barrack, and energy upgrade for Ghosts researched, it will take 45 seconds to get Ghost with 75 energy, and then Ghost has to move where is needed.
If Protoss has non-occupied Warpgate, and Khaydarin Amulet is not researched, it will take 49,5 seconds to get HT with 75 energy, and HT will be ready where is needed." You forgot to mention we have to research storm*. You sound like a troll (okay not a troll, but someone who justifiably hates High Templar) trying to justify a patch that may or may not come (I actually hope it does come. I want stim increased research time, some change to the amulet, and even a zerg buff). And your comparing different units on different races with different costs and timings, things should not always be equal, and those are vary tough comparisons to make (if you could I bet you could balance this game). You could even argue that ghost play at this point is underdeveloped in a lot of Terran players. Its a unit I think even pros still have untapped potential for (so many abilities inc. Nuke O.o). But as a Protoss player I will admit that yes warping in storms at will does indeed feel ridiculous at times, though absolutely necessary in some situations hehehe. I just wanted to ask you, in what situations is warping in storms absolutely necessary? It's one of few things that protoss had to defend against drops... You mean one of the many ways protoss can defend against drops, alongside cannons, feedback, blink stalkers, the fastest air unit in the game, just having dudes defend your base just like zerg has to. Cannons + Gateway is not enough to stop 3 dropships of marine/marauder. Even if you have 3-4 cannons, no more than 1 or 2 cannons will be in range. Marauders destroy cannons and barely take any damage from it. Warped in Zeals/Stalkers are worthless against MMM, even in small numbers. So yea, warped in templar is one of the few options that Protoss has that actually can stop a drop. It's still not cost-effective because that templar is guaranteed to die but at least you can keep the expansion. Feedback is hit or miss. If you don't destroy the medivac, it isn't worth it. Zerg has zerglings which can overwhelm a drop. You can get 4-6 zerglings for a single marauder. For Protoss, you can only get 1 to 1.5 zealots, depending on how worth of gas. And it doesn't even matter because zealots cannot out-DPS medivac healing nor can they deal with being conc shell-kited. You realize that Zerg doesn't have any Warp-In-abilities AT ALL and still has to somehow defend against Terran-Drops. Also, Zerglings might be strong against Marauders, but which Terran drops Marauders in a Zerg-base? Atm. almost all drops are either Marines or Hellions, which do pretty well against Zerglings, if it's not a ridiculous large amount. Protoss still has the ability to either warp in Stalkers or just leave a HT at each Expansion and Cannon up a bit, which was also what they had to do in SC:BW and it worked well. Also, it's possible to Warp-in a HT and Feedback, which will completely negate any healing from the Dropship and maybe even kill it. Zerg can make 12-20 units at once off of 2-3 unit producing structures. Additionally, Zerg can acquire drones faster (theoretically, depends on game) than any other race, making them have access to more resources sooner Why don't you try dropping Terran and abusing their production capabilities then, since Protoss seems to be the most vulnerable race for getting dropped apparently? What is stopping you? Protoss drops are viable, but are usually not cost efficient because you need an extra unit, unlike Terran who has medivacs lying around anyways in standard play.
I dont think I've seen a Terran drop that actually mattered in late game TvP or at least affected the game significantly enough..
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All arguments about the respective ability of each race to defend drops aside. It just seems like a slap in the face that one race has both the strongest drops and the strongest drop defense, and Blizzard responds to this by eliminating an effective drop defense.
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On March 02 2011 05:59 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:55 Rob28 wrote:On March 02 2011 05:51 Everlong wrote:
Protoss player always has access to more storms (and faster) then Terran player to EMPs. The issue here is not Ghost vs HT. The problem here is the access to storm. If you want to compare pure EMP and Storm, well, we can discuss that. WHAT!?! This is so flawed, I can't even.... Elaborate or don't post at all.. You just discredite my post without even suggesting something.. I suppose we are talking late-game 20-30 mins.. Of course EMP is lower in tech tree, but that is not the reason they are removing the amulet from the game.
Ok, how in the hell do protoss have faster access to storms? Because they can warp in HT? Because in order for that to work, you need to take all the time it takes to research storm, then all the time to research amulet, plus you gotta research warpgates, and then build enough gates to bring in significant amount of HT. Plus it takes 5 seconds to warp in. Then you storm, and have to wait 4 seconds to storm again because they don't stack the way EMP does. To kill a whole mineral line, you'll need at least 3 storms, so that's 8 seconds added right there if storms are cast adjacently to account for SCV movements.
Also, you need to build some form of warp-in. That's neither free, easy, nor fast.
I bet a ghost builds faster than it takes to complete 2 research techs and build a proxy pylon
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On March 02 2011 06:09 Eraz0rZ wrote:
appart from all the theorycrafting here i am going to try to play toss without amulet and see how i will be doing.
Since i do think practise is more important then theory. maybe it isnt so bad. because theres one thing i have not yet thought about.
The timing window when you have your very first templar when your opponent has not scouted you yet.
and your moving out. Can it be that if you move from your own base to your opponents base the templar will be having 75 energy and instead of using it as a reactionary unit you just go after it after collosi tech (what feb said made me think)
But still i do not see how we as toss are supposed to fight ghost on an even battle. (wich is my reall main concern)
ghost are invisible even when not cloaked blending in the MMM army they are faster more mobile and deplete ALL toss energy/half health and what do we have? if we have a toss ball we are easy victims of EMP when moving cuz i cant control 5 different army groups just for 1 attack with each taking a different attack route
when collosi get to a crit mass and mass vikings are insta produced (cuz terran can do that) we cant do anything because of ghost nullifying our storms wich we use to stop vikings with at that stage of the game.
(im talking lateeee game here)
ofcourse mass storm shouldnt obliterate a 200/200 army.. but should EMP do that then?...
thats my reall question about what to be done here.
So all of your argument is based off what you personally think would happen rather than going on the PTR which is freely available to everyone and test these things yourself?
Huh...
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On March 02 2011 06:01 Kralic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:59 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 05:55 kickinhead wrote:On March 02 2011 05:45 0mar wrote:On March 02 2011 04:50 Kazang wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 dragonblade369 wrote:On March 02 2011 04:44 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 04:40 Wrongspeedy wrote:What Protoss players were complaining about Warp-gate? While your number crunching, tell me how long it takes you to get a ghost with an emp in a real 1v1 game, then tell me how long it takes to do the same with an HT and storm. Why can't the ghost and infestor move after he is done being made? + Show Spoiler +"What does this mean?
When production is triggered by something, lets say when you notice enemy coming towards you and start producing Ghost, Infestor or HT, it will look like this.
If Zerg has free larva, and energy upgrade for Infestors researched, it will take 50 seconds to get Infestor with 75 energy, and then Infestor has to move where is needed.
If Terran has non-occupied Barrack, and energy upgrade for Ghosts researched, it will take 45 seconds to get Ghost with 75 energy, and then Ghost has to move where is needed.
If Protoss has non-occupied Warpgate, and Khaydarin Amulet is not researched, it will take 49,5 seconds to get HT with 75 energy, and HT will be ready where is needed." You forgot to mention we have to research storm*. You sound like a troll (okay not a troll, but someone who justifiably hates High Templar) trying to justify a patch that may or may not come (I actually hope it does come. I want stim increased research time, some change to the amulet, and even a zerg buff). And your comparing different units on different races with different costs and timings, things should not always be equal, and those are vary tough comparisons to make (if you could I bet you could balance this game). You could even argue that ghost play at this point is underdeveloped in a lot of Terran players. Its a unit I think even pros still have untapped potential for (so many abilities inc. Nuke O.o). But as a Protoss player I will admit that yes warping in storms at will does indeed feel ridiculous at times, though absolutely necessary in some situations hehehe. I just wanted to ask you, in what situations is warping in storms absolutely necessary? It's one of few things that protoss had to defend against drops... You mean one of the many ways protoss can defend against drops, alongside cannons, feedback, blink stalkers, the fastest air unit in the game, just having dudes defend your base just like zerg has to. Cannons + Gateway is not enough to stop 3 dropships of marine/marauder. Even if you have 3-4 cannons, no more than 1 or 2 cannons will be in range. Marauders destroy cannons and barely take any damage from it. Warped in Zeals/Stalkers are worthless against MMM, even in small numbers. So yea, warped in templar is one of the few options that Protoss has that actually can stop a drop. It's still not cost-effective because that templar is guaranteed to die but at least you can keep the expansion. Feedback is hit or miss. If you don't destroy the medivac, it isn't worth it. Zerg has zerglings which can overwhelm a drop. You can get 4-6 zerglings for a single marauder. For Protoss, you can only get 1 to 1.5 zealots, depending on how worth of gas. And it doesn't even matter because zealots cannot out-DPS medivac healing nor can they deal with being conc shell-kited. You realize that Zerg doesn't have any Warp-In-abilities AT ALL and still has to somehow defend against Terran-Drops. Also, Zerglings might be strong against Marauders, but which Terran drops Marauders in a Zerg-base? Atm. almost all drops are either Marines or Hellions, which do pretty well against Zerglings, if it's not a ridiculous large amount. Protoss still has the ability to either warp in Stalkers or just leave a HT at each Expansion and Cannon up a bit, which was also what they had to do in SC:BW and it worked well. Also, it's possible to Warp-in a HT and Feedback, which will completely negate any healing from the Dropship and maybe even kill it. Zerg can make 12-20 units at once off of 2-3 unit producing structures. Additionally, Zerg can acquire drones faster (theoretically, depends on game) than any other race, making them have access to more resources sooner Why don't you try dropping Terran and abusing their production capabilities then, since Protoss seems to be the most vulnerable race for getting dropped apparently? What is stopping you?
Do you know a common build called the 1/1/1 that gives Terran access to drops far sooner than the Protoss player and also includes in the build every unit producing capability to make an efficient and effective unit composition? It's because the Terran drop is available to the Terran player before it is to the Protoss player. If you see a P drop sooner than Terran, the P player doesn't have shit for an army. In addition, since the T drop comes before the P drop, P will continually struggle to try and manage the damage while T can freely macro or push the front. There will be no reason for T to not begin their endgame with medivac drop play, and there will be no ability for the P player to respond in any offensive way aside from a base trade or massing cannons. Does that sound like a game you want to watch?
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On March 02 2011 05:22 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:15 Barca wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 DoubleReed wrote:
Erm... under the OP's logic, wouldn't it be totally reasonable to lower the cooldown time of HTs if the Amulet is removed? Actually, under the OP's logic, there shouldn't be a Warpgate cooldown for any unit since it "doesn't matter" when considering the production time. I really miss some kind of "report for spam" button when I read such a sarcasm, its really pointless. Production rate and production time is not same thing. Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:55 Sek-Kuar wrote:
And final, to everyone saying that cooldown of previous unit affect current unit - you are wrong. It affect "production rate", and in SC2 production rate =/= prodution time.
For example reactored Factory can build 4 Helions in minute, but it doesnt mean that production time of Helion is reduced to 15 seconds. It only doubles "production rate".
Another example: Zerg can get 10 Ultralisk from one Hatchery per minute (with no stockpiled larvae)- thats "production rate". Production time is always 70 seconds.
Warpgate timeline:
0:05 HT created (1)
0:45 cooldown expires
0:50 HT created (2)
1:30 cooldown expires
1:35 HT created (3)
2:15 cooldown expires
Barrack with Tech Lab timeline:
0:45 Ghost created (1)
1:30 Ghost created (2)
2:15 Ghost created (3)
So as you can see, you are getting every unit, not just first, with 40 seconds reduced build time.
All that cooldown does is keeping same "production rate".
But it does not affect production time.
Yes, production rate & production time is not the same thing.
But you only look at production time and then claim that it's balanced (equalized).
Following your logic it wouldnt affect balance at all if the WG cooldown for HT would be reduced to 0, since it would only affect production rate.
My point is: You cannot disregard production rate if you want to say something about balance.
I also dislike your statement "you get every unit with 40seconds reduced build time".
Why dont we state it this way: "P has always 1unit more".
It doenst matter if it's at 0:00 or at 10:00. Comparing it to non-WG mechanics it's 1 unit more. WG isnt giving the P a magical higher number of units 
About dropdefense:
I never understood why Terrans didnt incluce a Ghost in their dropforce and snipe the 1 HT while warping in - preventing storm alltogether.
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On March 02 2011 06:04 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 06:01 Kralic wrote:On March 02 2011 05:59 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 05:55 kickinhead wrote:On March 02 2011 05:45 0mar wrote:On March 02 2011 04:50 Kazang wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 dragonblade369 wrote:On March 02 2011 04:44 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 04:40 Wrongspeedy wrote:What Protoss players were complaining about Warp-gate? While your number crunching, tell me how long it takes you to get a ghost with an emp in a real 1v1 game, then tell me how long it takes to do the same with an HT and storm. Why can't the ghost and infestor move after he is done being made? + Show Spoiler +"What does this mean?
When production is triggered by something, lets say when you notice enemy coming towards you and start producing Ghost, Infestor or HT, it will look like this.
If Zerg has free larva, and energy upgrade for Infestors researched, it will take 50 seconds to get Infestor with 75 energy, and then Infestor has to move where is needed.
If Terran has non-occupied Barrack, and energy upgrade for Ghosts researched, it will take 45 seconds to get Ghost with 75 energy, and then Ghost has to move where is needed.
If Protoss has non-occupied Warpgate, and Khaydarin Amulet is not researched, it will take 49,5 seconds to get HT with 75 energy, and HT will be ready where is needed." You forgot to mention we have to research storm*. You sound like a troll (okay not a troll, but someone who justifiably hates High Templar) trying to justify a patch that may or may not come (I actually hope it does come. I want stim increased research time, some change to the amulet, and even a zerg buff). And your comparing different units on different races with different costs and timings, things should not always be equal, and those are vary tough comparisons to make (if you could I bet you could balance this game). You could even argue that ghost play at this point is underdeveloped in a lot of Terran players. Its a unit I think even pros still have untapped potential for (so many abilities inc. Nuke O.o). But as a Protoss player I will admit that yes warping in storms at will does indeed feel ridiculous at times, though absolutely necessary in some situations hehehe. I just wanted to ask you, in what situations is warping in storms absolutely necessary? It's one of few things that protoss had to defend against drops... You mean one of the many ways protoss can defend against drops, alongside cannons, feedback, blink stalkers, the fastest air unit in the game, just having dudes defend your base just like zerg has to. Cannons + Gateway is not enough to stop 3 dropships of marine/marauder. Even if you have 3-4 cannons, no more than 1 or 2 cannons will be in range. Marauders destroy cannons and barely take any damage from it. Warped in Zeals/Stalkers are worthless against MMM, even in small numbers. So yea, warped in templar is one of the few options that Protoss has that actually can stop a drop. It's still not cost-effective because that templar is guaranteed to die but at least you can keep the expansion. Feedback is hit or miss. If you don't destroy the medivac, it isn't worth it. Zerg has zerglings which can overwhelm a drop. You can get 4-6 zerglings for a single marauder. For Protoss, you can only get 1 to 1.5 zealots, depending on how worth of gas. And it doesn't even matter because zealots cannot out-DPS medivac healing nor can they deal with being conc shell-kited. You realize that Zerg doesn't have any Warp-In-abilities AT ALL and still has to somehow defend against Terran-Drops. Also, Zerglings might be strong against Marauders, but which Terran drops Marauders in a Zerg-base? Atm. almost all drops are either Marines or Hellions, which do pretty well against Zerglings, if it's not a ridiculous large amount. Protoss still has the ability to either warp in Stalkers or just leave a HT at each Expansion and Cannon up a bit, which was also what they had to do in SC:BW and it worked well. Also, it's possible to Warp-in a HT and Feedback, which will completely negate any healing from the Dropship and maybe even kill it. Zerg can make 12-20 units at once off of 2-3 unit producing structures. Additionally, Zerg can acquire drones faster (theoretically, depends on game) than any other race, making them have access to more resources sooner Why don't you try dropping Terran and abusing their production capabilities then, since Protoss seems to be the most vulnerable race for getting dropped apparently? What is stopping you? Protoss drops are viable, but are usually not cost efficient because you need an extra unit, unlike Terran who has medivacs lying around anyways in standard play.
I have to completely disagree with that!
What is 200 Minerals in the Lategame? besides, with 8+ Warpgates in the Lategame, Warp-In's with the Prism can throw soo many Units in the Opponents base with just one Prism. Prism is totally underused - we almost never see HT-Drops (which are still extremely powerful and were practically a MUST in SC:BW if you wanted to play well) or Mass-Warp-in's, which isn't because Protoss can't afford the 200 Minerals, but because they just don't do it, it least most of them don't.
Zerg Drops are also underused, especially baneling-Drops on the Mineral-Line or Doom-Drops against a Slow-moving Deathball or Mech-Army.
It's just convenient (Most Terrans already have Medivacs) and in some MU/Circumstances necessary for the Terran to drop the enemy. I see that Terran Drops are more powerful, because Blue-Flame Hellions, Marauders and Marines deal INSANE DPS in a very short time, but the Problem isn't the Medivac or the fact Protoss now can't Warp-In-Storm anymore.
Also, the reason why Terrans don't get dropped that much is because their Anti-Air (Turret) is ridiculously powerful and cheap...
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On March 02 2011 06:09 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 06:04 Azarkon wrote:On March 02 2011 06:01 Kralic wrote:On March 02 2011 05:59 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 05:55 kickinhead wrote:On March 02 2011 05:45 0mar wrote:On March 02 2011 04:50 Kazang wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 dragonblade369 wrote:On March 02 2011 04:44 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 04:40 Wrongspeedy wrote:What Protoss players were complaining about Warp-gate? While your number crunching, tell me how long it takes you to get a ghost with an emp in a real 1v1 game, then tell me how long it takes to do the same with an HT and storm. Why can't the ghost and infestor move after he is done being made? + Show Spoiler +"What does this mean?
When production is triggered by something, lets say when you notice enemy coming towards you and start producing Ghost, Infestor or HT, it will look like this.
If Zerg has free larva, and energy upgrade for Infestors researched, it will take 50 seconds to get Infestor with 75 energy, and then Infestor has to move where is needed.
If Terran has non-occupied Barrack, and energy upgrade for Ghosts researched, it will take 45 seconds to get Ghost with 75 energy, and then Ghost has to move where is needed.
If Protoss has non-occupied Warpgate, and Khaydarin Amulet is not researched, it will take 49,5 seconds to get HT with 75 energy, and HT will be ready where is needed." You forgot to mention we have to research storm*. You sound like a troll (okay not a troll, but someone who justifiably hates High Templar) trying to justify a patch that may or may not come (I actually hope it does come. I want stim increased research time, some change to the amulet, and even a zerg buff). And your comparing different units on different races with different costs and timings, things should not always be equal, and those are vary tough comparisons to make (if you could I bet you could balance this game). You could even argue that ghost play at this point is underdeveloped in a lot of Terran players. Its a unit I think even pros still have untapped potential for (so many abilities inc. Nuke O.o). But as a Protoss player I will admit that yes warping in storms at will does indeed feel ridiculous at times, though absolutely necessary in some situations hehehe. I just wanted to ask you, in what situations is warping in storms absolutely necessary? It's one of few things that protoss had to defend against drops... You mean one of the many ways protoss can defend against drops, alongside cannons, feedback, blink stalkers, the fastest air unit in the game, just having dudes defend your base just like zerg has to. Cannons + Gateway is not enough to stop 3 dropships of marine/marauder. Even if you have 3-4 cannons, no more than 1 or 2 cannons will be in range. Marauders destroy cannons and barely take any damage from it. Warped in Zeals/Stalkers are worthless against MMM, even in small numbers. So yea, warped in templar is one of the few options that Protoss has that actually can stop a drop. It's still not cost-effective because that templar is guaranteed to die but at least you can keep the expansion. Feedback is hit or miss. If you don't destroy the medivac, it isn't worth it. Zerg has zerglings which can overwhelm a drop. You can get 4-6 zerglings for a single marauder. For Protoss, you can only get 1 to 1.5 zealots, depending on how worth of gas. And it doesn't even matter because zealots cannot out-DPS medivac healing nor can they deal with being conc shell-kited. You realize that Zerg doesn't have any Warp-In-abilities AT ALL and still has to somehow defend against Terran-Drops. Also, Zerglings might be strong against Marauders, but which Terran drops Marauders in a Zerg-base? Atm. almost all drops are either Marines or Hellions, which do pretty well against Zerglings, if it's not a ridiculous large amount. Protoss still has the ability to either warp in Stalkers or just leave a HT at each Expansion and Cannon up a bit, which was also what they had to do in SC:BW and it worked well. Also, it's possible to Warp-in a HT and Feedback, which will completely negate any healing from the Dropship and maybe even kill it. Zerg can make 12-20 units at once off of 2-3 unit producing structures. Additionally, Zerg can acquire drones faster (theoretically, depends on game) than any other race, making them have access to more resources sooner Why don't you try dropping Terran and abusing their production capabilities then, since Protoss seems to be the most vulnerable race for getting dropped apparently? What is stopping you? Protoss drops are viable, but are usually not cost efficient because you need an extra unit, unlike Terran who has medivacs lying around anyways in standard play. I dont think I've seen a Terran drop that actually mattered in late game TvP or at least affected the game significantly enough..
Come on man, that is simply not true. Dropping puts you as the aggressor and that is a huge advantage.
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On March 02 2011 06:07 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 06:04 Azarkon wrote:On March 02 2011 06:01 Kralic wrote:On March 02 2011 05:59 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 05:55 kickinhead wrote:On March 02 2011 05:45 0mar wrote:On March 02 2011 04:50 Kazang wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 dragonblade369 wrote:On March 02 2011 04:44 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 04:40 Wrongspeedy wrote:What Protoss players were complaining about Warp-gate? While your number crunching, tell me how long it takes you to get a ghost with an emp in a real 1v1 game, then tell me how long it takes to do the same with an HT and storm. Why can't the ghost and infestor move after he is done being made? + Show Spoiler +"What does this mean?
When production is triggered by something, lets say when you notice enemy coming towards you and start producing Ghost, Infestor or HT, it will look like this.
If Zerg has free larva, and energy upgrade for Infestors researched, it will take 50 seconds to get Infestor with 75 energy, and then Infestor has to move where is needed.
If Terran has non-occupied Barrack, and energy upgrade for Ghosts researched, it will take 45 seconds to get Ghost with 75 energy, and then Ghost has to move where is needed.
If Protoss has non-occupied Warpgate, and Khaydarin Amulet is not researched, it will take 49,5 seconds to get HT with 75 energy, and HT will be ready where is needed." You forgot to mention we have to research storm*. You sound like a troll (okay not a troll, but someone who justifiably hates High Templar) trying to justify a patch that may or may not come (I actually hope it does come. I want stim increased research time, some change to the amulet, and even a zerg buff). And your comparing different units on different races with different costs and timings, things should not always be equal, and those are vary tough comparisons to make (if you could I bet you could balance this game). You could even argue that ghost play at this point is underdeveloped in a lot of Terran players. Its a unit I think even pros still have untapped potential for (so many abilities inc. Nuke O.o). But as a Protoss player I will admit that yes warping in storms at will does indeed feel ridiculous at times, though absolutely necessary in some situations hehehe. I just wanted to ask you, in what situations is warping in storms absolutely necessary? It's one of few things that protoss had to defend against drops... You mean one of the many ways protoss can defend against drops, alongside cannons, feedback, blink stalkers, the fastest air unit in the game, just having dudes defend your base just like zerg has to. Cannons + Gateway is not enough to stop 3 dropships of marine/marauder. Even if you have 3-4 cannons, no more than 1 or 2 cannons will be in range. Marauders destroy cannons and barely take any damage from it. Warped in Zeals/Stalkers are worthless against MMM, even in small numbers. So yea, warped in templar is one of the few options that Protoss has that actually can stop a drop. It's still not cost-effective because that templar is guaranteed to die but at least you can keep the expansion. Feedback is hit or miss. If you don't destroy the medivac, it isn't worth it. Zerg has zerglings which can overwhelm a drop. You can get 4-6 zerglings for a single marauder. For Protoss, you can only get 1 to 1.5 zealots, depending on how worth of gas. And it doesn't even matter because zealots cannot out-DPS medivac healing nor can they deal with being conc shell-kited. You realize that Zerg doesn't have any Warp-In-abilities AT ALL and still has to somehow defend against Terran-Drops. Also, Zerglings might be strong against Marauders, but which Terran drops Marauders in a Zerg-base? Atm. almost all drops are either Marines or Hellions, which do pretty well against Zerglings, if it's not a ridiculous large amount. Protoss still has the ability to either warp in Stalkers or just leave a HT at each Expansion and Cannon up a bit, which was also what they had to do in SC:BW and it worked well. Also, it's possible to Warp-in a HT and Feedback, which will completely negate any healing from the Dropship and maybe even kill it. Zerg can make 12-20 units at once off of 2-3 unit producing structures. Additionally, Zerg can acquire drones faster (theoretically, depends on game) than any other race, making them have access to more resources sooner Why don't you try dropping Terran and abusing their production capabilities then, since Protoss seems to be the most vulnerable race for getting dropped apparently? What is stopping you? Protoss drops are viable, but are usually not cost efficient because you need an extra unit, unlike Terran who has medivacs lying around anyways in standard play. What's wrong with warp prisms lying around? you can unpack them behind your army and reinforce as well. both units make the battle last longer
Pylons do that, for 100 minerals less, with higher hp and shields, while adding to your supply
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On March 02 2011 06:13 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 06:04 Azarkon wrote:On March 02 2011 06:01 Kralic wrote:On March 02 2011 05:59 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 05:55 kickinhead wrote:On March 02 2011 05:45 0mar wrote:On March 02 2011 04:50 Kazang wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 dragonblade369 wrote:On March 02 2011 04:44 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 04:40 Wrongspeedy wrote:What Protoss players were complaining about Warp-gate? While your number crunching, tell me how long it takes you to get a ghost with an emp in a real 1v1 game, then tell me how long it takes to do the same with an HT and storm. Why can't the ghost and infestor move after he is done being made? + Show Spoiler +"What does this mean?
When production is triggered by something, lets say when you notice enemy coming towards you and start producing Ghost, Infestor or HT, it will look like this.
If Zerg has free larva, and energy upgrade for Infestors researched, it will take 50 seconds to get Infestor with 75 energy, and then Infestor has to move where is needed.
If Terran has non-occupied Barrack, and energy upgrade for Ghosts researched, it will take 45 seconds to get Ghost with 75 energy, and then Ghost has to move where is needed.
If Protoss has non-occupied Warpgate, and Khaydarin Amulet is not researched, it will take 49,5 seconds to get HT with 75 energy, and HT will be ready where is needed." You forgot to mention we have to research storm*. You sound like a troll (okay not a troll, but someone who justifiably hates High Templar) trying to justify a patch that may or may not come (I actually hope it does come. I want stim increased research time, some change to the amulet, and even a zerg buff). And your comparing different units on different races with different costs and timings, things should not always be equal, and those are vary tough comparisons to make (if you could I bet you could balance this game). You could even argue that ghost play at this point is underdeveloped in a lot of Terran players. Its a unit I think even pros still have untapped potential for (so many abilities inc. Nuke O.o). But as a Protoss player I will admit that yes warping in storms at will does indeed feel ridiculous at times, though absolutely necessary in some situations hehehe. I just wanted to ask you, in what situations is warping in storms absolutely necessary? It's one of few things that protoss had to defend against drops... You mean one of the many ways protoss can defend against drops, alongside cannons, feedback, blink stalkers, the fastest air unit in the game, just having dudes defend your base just like zerg has to. Cannons + Gateway is not enough to stop 3 dropships of marine/marauder. Even if you have 3-4 cannons, no more than 1 or 2 cannons will be in range. Marauders destroy cannons and barely take any damage from it. Warped in Zeals/Stalkers are worthless against MMM, even in small numbers. So yea, warped in templar is one of the few options that Protoss has that actually can stop a drop. It's still not cost-effective because that templar is guaranteed to die but at least you can keep the expansion. Feedback is hit or miss. If you don't destroy the medivac, it isn't worth it. Zerg has zerglings which can overwhelm a drop. You can get 4-6 zerglings for a single marauder. For Protoss, you can only get 1 to 1.5 zealots, depending on how worth of gas. And it doesn't even matter because zealots cannot out-DPS medivac healing nor can they deal with being conc shell-kited. You realize that Zerg doesn't have any Warp-In-abilities AT ALL and still has to somehow defend against Terran-Drops. Also, Zerglings might be strong against Marauders, but which Terran drops Marauders in a Zerg-base? Atm. almost all drops are either Marines or Hellions, which do pretty well against Zerglings, if it's not a ridiculous large amount. Protoss still has the ability to either warp in Stalkers or just leave a HT at each Expansion and Cannon up a bit, which was also what they had to do in SC:BW and it worked well. Also, it's possible to Warp-in a HT and Feedback, which will completely negate any healing from the Dropship and maybe even kill it. Zerg can make 12-20 units at once off of 2-3 unit producing structures. Additionally, Zerg can acquire drones faster (theoretically, depends on game) than any other race, making them have access to more resources sooner Why don't you try dropping Terran and abusing their production capabilities then, since Protoss seems to be the most vulnerable race for getting dropped apparently? What is stopping you? Protoss drops are viable, but are usually not cost efficient because you need an extra unit, unlike Terran who has medivacs lying around anyways in standard play. I have to completely disagree with that! What is 200 Minerals in the Lategame? besides, with 8+ Warpgates in the Lategame, Warp-In's with the Prism can throw soo many Units in the Opponents base with just one Prism. Prism is totally underused - we almost never see HT-Drops (which are still extremely powerful and were practically a MUST in SC:BW if you wanted to play well) or Mass-Warp-in's, which isn't because Protoss can't afford the 200 Minerals, but because they just don't do it, it least most of them don't. Zerg Drops are also underused, especially baneling-Drops on the Mineral-Line or Doom-Drops against a Slow-moving Deathball or Mech-Army. It's just convenient (Most Terrans already have Medivacs) and in some MU/Circumstances necessary for the Terran to drop the enemy. I see that Terran Drops are more powerful, because Blue-Flame Hellions, Marauders and Marines deal INSANE DPS in a very short time, but the Problem isn't the Medivac or the fact Protoss now can't Warp-In-Storm anymore. Also, the reason why Terrans don't get dropped that much is because their Anti-Air (Turret) is ridiculously powerful and cheap...
Because the Terran drop is more efficient in time, minerals, and gas, does more damage than the P drop (aside from warpstorming), is available earlier in the course of a PvT game, and is available on the same tech path that the most effective unit compositions as a T exist on.
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Removing Khaydarin Amulet will not affect the ability of terrans to harass expansions because good protoss players (an oxymoron, I know) will just leave a templar or two at every expansion just in case, and when they see a drop they can storm with the templar that they already have and warp in chargelots/stalkers as usual.
That being said I think that removing Khaydarin Amulet is a bad idea. Terran currently has a direct counter to every protoss offensive weapon: vikings > collosus, ghosts > templar. Usually how battles play out is that terran's marine and marauder ball is wiped out by the serious offensive capacities of the protoss death ball, but after that battle is over protoss' offensive weaponry is seriously dampened. Collosus are sniped by terran's viking fleet, phoenixes have been EMP'd, and the templar have used up their storms and are morphed into archons. If the terran is smart he won't have landed all of his vikings to just die to stalkers, he will have saved them for the next battle. What's left after the battle is a ball of a dozen or so marauders stim-kiting zealots under a mob of medivacs which are in the red healing the shit out of the marauders. Eventually the remaining gateway units for protoss are either forced to retreat or are cleaned up.
Now comes the time for players to remake their armies. That being said terran now has air control (unless protoss overcommited to phoenixes, in which case his ground army likely died ages ago due to terran infantry), so making collosus pretty much isn't an option for protoss. And even if the terran doesn't have air control, remaking collosus takes about 3 years, and probably isn't the best choice. So now terran is constantly replenishing their MM army which ALREADY has medivac and viking support, which makes it way more powerful than the zealot/sentry/stalker reinforcements that protoss is stuck with.
The only thing keeping protoss alive at this point is the fact that they can warp in templar with storm to keep the MM ball at bay, but the terran KNOWS this, so they have ghosts made already to counter the templar. Ghosts are stupidly good at countering templar. Even if you don't get an EMP off on the templar you force them templar to feedback you, and a feedback on a newly created templar is 1 storm that will never happen. Since terran's objective is to keep the storm count to a minimum, getting a ghost feedbacked is still a victory for them. The only thing that protoss has going for them is that they can just make more templar to reinforce the ones that were lost.
Removing Khaydarin Amulet will mean that protoss will lose most drawn out games because they greatly lack the ability to replenish their army like terran does. If you want to reduce protoss' ability to immediately counter drops, make Khaydarin Amulet give +20e to start instead of +25, but removing the upgrade entirely will destroy the entire late game dynamic of TvP
EDIT: Also not to mention that beating Muta/ling in PvZ would become a nightmare without Khaydarin Amulet
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On March 02 2011 06:13 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:22 Sek-Kuar wrote:On March 02 2011 05:15 Barca wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 DoubleReed wrote:
Erm... under the OP's logic, wouldn't it be totally reasonable to lower the cooldown time of HTs if the Amulet is removed? Actually, under the OP's logic, there shouldn't be a Warpgate cooldown for any unit since it "doesn't matter" when considering the production time. I really miss some kind of "report for spam" button when I read such a sarcasm, its really pointless. Production rate and production time is not same thing. On March 02 2011 04:55 Sek-Kuar wrote:
And final, to everyone saying that cooldown of previous unit affect current unit - you are wrong. It affect "production rate", and in SC2 production rate =/= prodution time.
For example reactored Factory can build 4 Helions in minute, but it doesnt mean that production time of Helion is reduced to 15 seconds. It only doubles "production rate".
Another example: Zerg can get 10 Ultralisk from one Hatchery per minute (with no stockpiled larvae)- thats "production rate". Production time is always 70 seconds.
Warpgate timeline:
0:05 HT created (1)
0:45 cooldown expires
0:50 HT created (2)
1:30 cooldown expires
1:35 HT created (3)
2:15 cooldown expires
Barrack with Tech Lab timeline:
0:45 Ghost created (1)
1:30 Ghost created (2)
2:15 Ghost created (3)
So as you can see, you are getting every unit, not just first, with 40 seconds reduced build time.
All that cooldown does is keeping same "production rate".
But it does not affect production time.
Yes, production rate & production time is not the same thing. But you only look at production time and then claim that it's balanced (equalized). Following your logic it wouldnt affect balance at all if the WG cooldown for HT would be reduced to 0, since it would only affect production rate. My point is: You cannot disregard production rate if you want to say something about balance. I also dislike your statement "you get every unit with 40seconds reduced build time". Why dont we state it this way: "P has always 1unit more". It doenst matter if it's at 0:00 or at 10:00. Comparing it to non-WG mechanics it's 1 unit more. WG isnt giving the P a magical higher number of units About dropdefense: I never understood why Terrans didnt incluce a Ghost in their dropforce and snipe the 1 HT while warping in - preventing storm alltogether.
Exactly. Sensor tower, 1 EMP. Protoss just wasted min/gas/WG cycles, whatever
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On March 02 2011 06:10 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:59 Everlong wrote:On March 02 2011 05:55 Rob28 wrote:On March 02 2011 05:51 Everlong wrote:
Protoss player always has access to more storms (and faster) then Terran player to EMPs. The issue here is not Ghost vs HT. The problem here is the access to storm. If you want to compare pure EMP and Storm, well, we can discuss that. WHAT!?! This is so flawed, I can't even.... Elaborate or don't post at all.. You just discredite my post without even suggesting something.. I suppose we are talking late-game 20-30 mins.. Of course EMP is lower in tech tree, but that is not the reason they are removing the amulet from the game. Ok, how in the hell do protoss have faster access to storms? Because they can warp in HT? Because in order for that to work, you need to take all the time it takes to research storm, then all the time to research amulet, plus you gotta research warpgates, and then build enough gates to bring in significant amount of HT. Plus it takes 5 seconds to warp in. Then you storm, and have to wait 4 seconds to storm again because they don't stack the way EMP does. To kill a whole mineral line, you'll need at least 3 storms, so that's 8 seconds added right there if storms are cast adjacently to account for SCV movements. Also, you need to build some form of warp-in. That's neither free, easy, nor fast. I bet a ghost builds faster than it takes to complete 2 research techs and build a proxy pylon
First of all, calm down. Secondly, I'm not talking about sniping mineral line or mid game, where you have your first set of templars on the field. We are discussing the removal of the amulet. I suppose we are talking about late game, where it clearly is an issue and all those things you mentioned are marginal or basically already done. Don't tell me Protoss needs to research warpgates in order to warp-in as an argument, how hard it is to get several HTs in 30 minute mark..
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On March 02 2011 06:13 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 06:09 Everlong wrote:On March 02 2011 06:04 Azarkon wrote:On March 02 2011 06:01 Kralic wrote:On March 02 2011 05:59 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 05:55 kickinhead wrote:On March 02 2011 05:45 0mar wrote:On March 02 2011 04:50 Kazang wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 dragonblade369 wrote:On March 02 2011 04:44 Housemd wrote:
[quote]
I just wanted to ask you, in what situations is warping in storms absolutely necessary? It's one of few things that protoss had to defend against drops... You mean one of the many ways protoss can defend against drops, alongside cannons, feedback, blink stalkers, the fastest air unit in the game, just having dudes defend your base just like zerg has to. Cannons + Gateway is not enough to stop 3 dropships of marine/marauder. Even if you have 3-4 cannons, no more than 1 or 2 cannons will be in range. Marauders destroy cannons and barely take any damage from it. Warped in Zeals/Stalkers are worthless against MMM, even in small numbers. So yea, warped in templar is one of the few options that Protoss has that actually can stop a drop. It's still not cost-effective because that templar is guaranteed to die but at least you can keep the expansion. Feedback is hit or miss. If you don't destroy the medivac, it isn't worth it. Zerg has zerglings which can overwhelm a drop. You can get 4-6 zerglings for a single marauder. For Protoss, you can only get 1 to 1.5 zealots, depending on how worth of gas. And it doesn't even matter because zealots cannot out-DPS medivac healing nor can they deal with being conc shell-kited. You realize that Zerg doesn't have any Warp-In-abilities AT ALL and still has to somehow defend against Terran-Drops. Also, Zerglings might be strong against Marauders, but which Terran drops Marauders in a Zerg-base? Atm. almost all drops are either Marines or Hellions, which do pretty well against Zerglings, if it's not a ridiculous large amount. Protoss still has the ability to either warp in Stalkers or just leave a HT at each Expansion and Cannon up a bit, which was also what they had to do in SC:BW and it worked well. Also, it's possible to Warp-in a HT and Feedback, which will completely negate any healing from the Dropship and maybe even kill it. Zerg can make 12-20 units at once off of 2-3 unit producing structures. Additionally, Zerg can acquire drones faster (theoretically, depends on game) than any other race, making them have access to more resources sooner Why don't you try dropping Terran and abusing their production capabilities then, since Protoss seems to be the most vulnerable race for getting dropped apparently? What is stopping you? Protoss drops are viable, but are usually not cost efficient because you need an extra unit, unlike Terran who has medivacs lying around anyways in standard play. I dont think I've seen a Terran drop that actually mattered in late game TvP or at least affected the game significantly enough.. Come on man, that is simply not true. Dropping puts you as the aggressor and that is a huge advantage.
Hmm, I see.. But what is the point of being an aggressor when all your attempts to do se are denied pretty easily and lets be honest, its far easier for Protoss to deal with drops due to warp-in mechanics.. I agree this is situational.
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