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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 02 2011 05:13 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:06 andyrau wrote:
Even with OP's numbers and statistics, the removal of +25 energy from HTs is a bit uncalled for. I agree that with warpin storms, Protoss seems invincible, and the notion that you can warp in storms at any desired location is a bit overwhelming.
However, it's not the production time or the travel distance that's the crux of the problem (as op suggests). Instead, the problem with high Templar is storm itself. Blizzard is trying to balance the game by removing khaydarin amulet, but essentially castrating a entire tech tree be unnecessary? Instead, wouldn't the problem be solved by tweaking the way storm does damage or how much damage it does? I dont agree with you, thats why I posted this. IMO if Zerg has to plan and prepare at least 50 seconds before to cast "powerful" Fungal Growth, its good think for strategy. But if Protoss can cast "powerful" Storm with no preparation at all, then its better IMHO to implement this "preparation factor" and make Storm as good as FG is. Im not saying that FG is better than Storm or whatever, but IMO most important thing is to keep strategy aspects (i.e. required plans and preparation) and then balance Storm the way that its worth that 50 seconds delay. Just like FG has 50 seconds delay.
But there's more than a 50 second delay, your Warpgate is unusuable for 45 seconds. It's the same as saying a Ghost builds instantaenously because you can ignore the production time.
You cannot ignore the production time. You have to plan when to warp in your units too, you said before that Protoss don't have to. If you use up all your Warpgates to defend a drop and he drops in ANOTHER location, you are screwed. Or if you warp in all your units into your main army, so when a drop comes you have no idle Warpgates, and you're screwed.
There is preparation involved, I don't see how you can ignore that. Protoss gets their Warpgate units upfront, it's how the game mechanics works, and that is suchhh a bonus, but you cannot ignore the weaknesses of the Warpgate; which you do.
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On March 02 2011 05:15 Barca wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:48 DoubleReed wrote:
Erm... under the OP's logic, wouldn't it be totally reasonable to lower the cooldown time of HTs if the Amulet is removed? Actually, under the OP's logic, there shouldn't be a Warpgate cooldown for any unit since it "doesn't matter" when considering the production time.
I really miss some kind of "report for spam" button when I read such a sarcasm, its really pointless.
Production rate and production time is not same thing.
On March 02 2011 04:55 Sek-Kuar wrote:
And final, to everyone saying that cooldown of previous unit affect current unit - you are wrong. It affect "production rate", and in SC2 production rate =/= prodution time.
For example reactored Factory can build 4 Helions in minute, but it doesnt mean that production time of Helion is reduced to 15 seconds. It only doubles "production rate".
Another example: Zerg can get 10 Ultralisk from one Hatchery per minute (with no stockpiled larvae)- thats "production rate". Production time is always 70 seconds.
Warpgate timeline:
0:05 HT created (1)
0:45 cooldown expires
0:50 HT created (2)
1:30 cooldown expires
1:35 HT created (3)
2:15 cooldown expires
Barrack with Tech Lab timeline:
0:45 Ghost created (1)
1:30 Ghost created (2)
2:15 Ghost created (3)
So as you can see, you are getting every unit, not just first, with 40 seconds reduced build time.
All that cooldown does is keeping same "production rate".
But it does not affect production time.
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On March 02 2011 05:17 EmerTehFreek wrote:
I don't see how the argument that warp in storm is the only way to deal with drops. Pretty sure that a couple well placed cannons can kill a dropship before it even lands?
People aren't saying it's the only way to deal with them... Please don't suggest cannons.
Please read this: With the High Templar tech path being as expensive and time consuming as it is, removing the Khaydarin Amulet ruins any ability for the HT teching Protoss to respond to drops. Since most games are decided on 2-3 bases, drops are extremely effective. Protoss need enough dimension in their units to a) prevent drops or deal with them after they've happened, and b) be able to be an actual threat to mineral lines against Terrans with otherwise superior defenses.
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On March 02 2011 05:16 Eraz0rZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:11 Kralic wrote:
Very interesting way to look at it. Sparks an interesting theory of how they reasoned out this change.
Really Protoss are upset they can't warp in HT's with storm to stop drops? Here is an easy solution.
Warp in x HT's. x = # of drop ships. Use the HT's to zap the drop ships with feedback then warp them into archons and use your remaining warp gate warps to warp in actual units to kill the forces that can no longer be healed by zapped dropships. THen we still have the problem of stimmed units running about in our main where we need to prepare templar (super high gas cost for protoss and tier 3 units wich you dont want in your base but on the offensive) and .. gateway units wich always get pwned by MM stimmed units even without healing... still the medi wont die when feedbacked so it can just kill some probes and get out of there... 1 marauder can endlessly kite a archon so thats a big nono aswell
Okay... so you lost the game due to one marauder kiting an archon? Probably not.
1 drop ship isn't going to rape your base beyond you losing unless you are slow to react. A drop kills probes, yes it does but what stops you from moving the probes and minimizing the losses? You have issues with them running around your base stimmed? Still once again slow reaction or the wrong action was taken to deal with said units in your base.
Want another idea to help protoss out? Put observers along the edges of the maps to spot drop ships ahead of time.
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Protoss should really experiment with more phoenixes against MMM mobility play. True, phoenixes get demolished by stimmed marines, but the key to stopping drops is to catch them before they unload, and phoenixes are the ideal air superiority fighters, which give you control of the air space at a level that Terran cannot contest until Battle Cruisers, and I doubt a MMM player is going to go BCs.
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On March 02 2011 05:22 Kralic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:16 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:11 Kralic wrote:
Very interesting way to look at it. Sparks an interesting theory of how they reasoned out this change.
Really Protoss are upset they can't warp in HT's with storm to stop drops? Here is an easy solution.
Warp in x HT's. x = # of drop ships. Use the HT's to zap the drop ships with feedback then warp them into archons and use your remaining warp gate warps to warp in actual units to kill the forces that can no longer be healed by zapped dropships. THen we still have the problem of stimmed units running about in our main where we need to prepare templar (super high gas cost for protoss and tier 3 units wich you dont want in your base but on the offensive) and .. gateway units wich always get pwned by MM stimmed units even without healing... still the medi wont die when feedbacked so it can just kill some probes and get out of there... 1 marauder can endlessly kite a archon so thats a big nono aswell Okay... so you lost the game due to one marauder kiting an archon? Probably not. 1 drop ship isn't going to rape your base beyond you losing unless you are slow to react. A drop kills probes, yes it does but what stops you from moving the probes and minimizing the losses? You have issues with them running around your base stimmed? Still once again slow reaction or the wrong action was taken to deal with said units in your base.
It's about how many units you have to pull to deal with 1 mmm drop, and how the Terran can exploit that with an attack at the front with the rest of his army. It's about how much supply you need as a P player to devote to handling the drop compared to how much the Terran needs in executing it. It's about P being a lategame threat in more than one dimension, and about handling multiple drops where if each drop requires 16-20 supply to handle, you soon run out of a standing army when you deal with just 2-3 drops compared to how efficient it is done by the Terran player.
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On March 02 2011 05:11 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:57 avilo wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:42 avilo wrote:
Lots of protoss players themselves were saying that the amulet is too powerful...so yeah...this chang should have come a while ago. It's bad game design to have a match-up where, "i researched khadyarin now the game is over." Which PvT was sorta devolving into.
I remember playing some off-race as protoss, whenever I got a PvT and managed to get the amulet I won lol.
Now protoss will have to actually prepare a defense...just like SC1. You can still do warp in templar to any point on the map with pylon power, but it can't be ah, "oh shit i didn't defend here, let me warp in 5 templar and make an entire army go bye bye ^_^" I respect your level Avilo, but can't as a Protoss I say now Terran should prepare a defense against warp in storms? The balls in their court; if Terran can't put a single viking on patrol near their natural mineral line to stop the WP, whose fault is that? Protoss players have experienced hellion drops so many times we're used to it and preempt it, why can't Terrans do the same? Terrans do prepare a defense against it...but even in those scenarios if it's an offensive warp-in it's still going to do damage for littel to no effort. Also, we're not even talking warp prisms here, which are absolutely amazing. On maps like xel naga, a lot of P will scatter pylons everywhere on your side of the map, and there are instances where you cannot spare a few units to kill the pylons because T as well must have their army together, and if you send a "few" units to kill a pylon or prism, the Protoss matches those few units with newly warped in ones  They're nerfing it because it's been too powerful. It always has been. As for drops, drops are different from warp-ins because drops are not instantly at any single point in the map with zero travel time. And no, a lot of times in PvT drops are not pre-emptively defended by Protoss. Good players do stop drops by being ready, but a large majority of the time newly warped in templar/gateway units stop drops. It's too powerful. Imagine being able to call-down a nuke anywhere on the map...that's essentially what warp-in templar storm is. Maybe Blizz will give that to Terran in an expansion pack ^_^ just kidding lol. Avilo, it takes 1 ghost to stop this. You should have ghosts if you have done scouting right? All you have to do in every case as a Terran is see the templar coming, whether thats from having vision on the high ground, a single forward marine, a single supply depot, whatever. If you see the HT coming, you can move your workers and deal with the HT. The HT is not fast like a hellion, so it can't destroy your scvs as they run. It isn't a seige tank that, together with a few marines, can sit seiged and nail your expansion for minutes on end. It isn't an infestor or a ghost that can become undetectable and avoid death. It IS a unit that is typically killed soon after it has been used once. I don't agree with comparing it to a nuke either, the HT requires a stationary target, surprise, slow reactions, and is clumped with other units in the small template to be effective.
No...are you kidding me? Terrans do not have a ghost instantenously at any point on the map. You are living in a fantasy land where ghosts are somehow the Terran equivalent of high templar. I'm not theorycrafting, I'm telling you how the game is. Moving workers to stop an HT? Look, I am not going to argue with you here, I'm not theorycrafting, I'm telling you how the game is, as will other good Protoss/Terrans. And I already addressed what typically happens with spotter units or a few units sent to kill a pylon ends up with a round of warp-ins to parry that.
Either way, it does not matter. Templar warp-in has always been very powerful, if not too powerful, which is why Blizzard is removing it.
Lots of protoss do fine even without templars, but there are others that literally abuse it to the point where you cannot attack cost effectively. It's basically like 5rax reaper. Could it be stopped? Yes, it could be. Was it too powerful? Yes, it was. They went a bit overboard on something like that basically removing the reaper from competitive play in your army, whereas this will not happen with such a strong unit as the high templar.
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On March 02 2011 04:17 CarNatt wrote:
There is no sense to say "blizzard balanced casters" .
So, blizzard must balance gateways and T1 units ? so marines/maraudeurs must be as strong as Zelot stalkers ( and you know that Bioball > Gateways units )
In order to balance this, protoss caster must > terran caster.
So yes casters are balanced. What about the game balance? Imbalanced.
This. I'm not sure what the point of the OP is.
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On March 02 2011 05:21 Eraz0rZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:17 EmerTehFreek wrote:
I don't see how the argument that warp in storm is the only way to deal with drops. Pretty sure that a couple well placed cannons can kill a dropship before it even lands? I dont know if i should take this serious. but first off if a terran sees a cannon it wont just barge in there it will drop away from the cannons. then stim and kill the cannons no problem (already tried this before) second static defense cost money, and they dont move. wich means, you lose in army strenght... third he can also just avoid the static kill probes and heal with medi... and run... wanna bet hes being more cost efficient then you..
Obviously you missed the "well placed" part of that.
And you're saying Terran doesn't need static Turrets ever?
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On March 02 2011 05:22 Kralic wrote:
Okay... so you lost the game due to one marauder kiting an archon? Probably not.
1 drop ship isn't going to rape your base beyond you losing unless you are slow to react. A drop kills probes, yes it does but what stops you from moving the probes and minimizing the losses? You have issues with them running around your base stimmed? Still once again slow reaction or the wrong action was taken to deal with said units in your base.
Want another idea to help protoss out? Put observers along the edges of the maps to spot drop ships ahead of time.
I think the point is that one terran drop will do more damage than any storm warp-in. Especially since storms cant stack. Would you rather have 4 mauraders in your mineral line, or a brief cloud of psionic energy with no follow-through?
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On March 02 2011 05:19 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:09 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:03 fraktoasters wrote:
I think it's hilarious people are saying ht with storm and amulet upgrades are the only way Protoss have to deal with drops or banshees (they come way before the Protoss will have the tech).
Though this begs the question, what do Zerg or Terran do to defend against drops? If a Zerg doesn't spot it, he's going to lose drones/Queens. If a Terran doesn't spot it (and it's MKP) he'll probably just lose the game, if not just scvs and addons.
But if a Protoss doesn't spot a drop, he should be able to build a couple units where the drop is happening and stop it 5 seconds later?
Removing the amulet doesn't stop the Protoss from just warping in and stopping the drops with other units of course, it's just that templars were so effective against it.
All this does is require more scouting from Protoss players. Do you even know how toss 'deals' with banshees? they need tech, blink stalkers + obs is a way to defend. where you cant leave your base ever...and wait for tech like templar to finish the job. i ussually see most drops come, but multipronged attacks is what kills toss. they cant split there army aswell as terran can because low groups of toss army (see early game) suck without forcefields or something. and you cant forcefield a medivac wich also heals... Also toss is the most dependant on his workers. with almost no macro abilities (unlike zerg wich can easily get 3 base up and running so it wont matter asmuch if they lose there friggin base) or terran (wich have mules to compensate for workers) us protoss need 2 base fully mining to tech up to a certain level to deal with it. Oh yeah I forgot that Protoss can't speed up their probe production >_> And losing a base as a Zerg is a really big deal. You're not just losing workers but also a production facility. Not to mention Zergs want to be ahead in bases. Denying zerg expansions is the best way to kill him. The Haypro games this season come to mind. You know how Zerg 'deals' with banshees? We make flying units (which is also our defense against drops), because _surprise_ banshees don't hit air. There have been so many games won by Terran drops against Protoss where all the Protoss really should have done is build a couple pheonixes to shut it down. And excuse me for not knowing how Protoss 'deals' with it because I've never actually seen it being done in a casted game. Usually you just see stalkers and obs dealing with it and occasionally see templars used to feedback them, without any need for amulet. Everyone seriously needs to stop pretending that Protoss are the only race that are killed by drops or have a hard time with multi-pronged attacks.
protoss probe production =/= comparable with mules at any level.
we toss need to go robo, twilight council, templar archives AND stargate to deal wtih drops? thats our entire tech tree. we need atleast 3/4 bases for that... we as toss cant use our entire tech tree cuz that costs too much.
i dont know how zerg deals with drops except maybe fungal or air...
i already am feedbacking banshee but if they come in numbers greater then 6 (later game) all cloaked you need an observer first to spot them, then feedback them hope they die AND stalkers to defend against more of them.
Drops are a different story feedback doesnt hurt drops at all. and small protoss armies simply put are retardedly weak without propper forcefields (you try to forcefield a drop i dare you...)
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On March 02 2011 05:14 Falling wrote:
Honestly, if they end up amping up the power or radius of storm, I'd be perfectly happy with losing the energy upgrade. It does seem a little ridiculous to immediately be able to call down storms at a moments notice. If it still takes times to build up energy, but the power is greater, I'd say it's a fair trade.
Going into Beta and then switching back to BW, I always found storm rather disappointing compared to the damage BW storms would do to bio and even mech.
I'd like to see that. Then maybe my HT drops can actually kill workers rather then wound them and have them all run. Blue Flame Hellion drops cost so much less and do so much more damage.
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On March 02 2011 05:17 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:05 Housemd wrote:On March 02 2011 04:48 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:42 avilo wrote:
Lots of protoss players themselves were saying that the amulet is too powerful...so yeah...this chang should have come a while ago. It's bad game design to have a match-up where, "i researched khadyarin now the game is over." Which PvT was sorta devolving into.
I remember playing some off-race as protoss, whenever I got a PvT and managed to get the amulet I won lol.
Now protoss will have to actually prepare a defense...just like SC1. You can still do warp in templar to any point on the map with pylon power, but it can't be ah, "oh shit i didn't defend here, let me warp in 5 templar and make an entire army go bye bye ^_^" I respect your level Avilo, but can't as a Protoss I say now Terran should prepare a defense against warp in storms? The balls in their court; if Terran can't put a single viking on patrol near their natural mineral line to stop the WP, whose fault is that? Protoss players have experienced hellion drops so many times we're used to it and preempt it, why can't Terrans do the same? Wait, I find a mishap in your logic. You state that Terran can stop storms by making some vikings to stop incoming Warp Prisms but what about Protoss? Can't they have some High Templar at their expansions to feedback when a medivac comes in? Why don't they just make some phoenixes and patrol their expansions? Also, protoss have one of the most mobile unit in the game, the STALKER. Blink stalker is one of the most mobile units in the game and could be used to defend drops and other forms of harassment. Every suggestion of yours is flawed. You assume the medivac has at least 150 energy, that I have a stargate and phoenix IN ADDITION to my tech path, and that I have stalkers nearby with blink already researched. It's great the stalker is mobile... Does it have to fight MMM too? That's the problem. If I have these mobile stalkers, I need a shitload to defend a drop, and I'm not talking 4 or 5. Terran already have a starport and a reactor if they went bio, which they do most of the time. The argument is that Protoss doesn't have the unit they need, that it exists on a whole different tech path. Terran, however, have instant access to their unit since their techpath has already been reached.
Okay, the phoenixes were a bit outrageous.
Hmm...true but I just wanted to let you know that i'm talking about late-game drops where the toss has around 3 expansions. In my opinion, toss has the second most easiest way to scout drops by having observers around the map on the lookout which makes it ultra-easy for them. Terran can not say the same about templar drops. And I don't understand what you mean that the stalker has to fight Marine/Medivac/Marauder drop too. Think about it: If a protoss warps in ~5 zealots with CHARGE just when the medivac is dropping, and has three-four blink stalkers supporting them it can take out a 8 marine drop.
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On March 02 2011 05:24 Azarkon wrote:
Protoss should really experiment with more phoenixes against MMM mobility play. True, phoenixes get demolished by stimmed marines, but the key to stopping drops is to catch them before they unload, and phoenixes are the ideal air superiority fighters, which give you control of the air space at a level that Terran cannot contest until Battle Cruisers, and I doubt a MMM player is going to go BCs.
You do know that vikings can be reactored and are good against phoenixes even without marines, which are found in almost every Terran army, right? This isn't a solution, and it requires a separate tech path that does not handle the real threat which is bio. Sure I can mass phoenix, that way at least I am allowed to lose my base to bio starting from the front rather than the back.
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Reversed production cycle. Op put it well into perspective.
Objectively, the way ENERGY DISTRIBUTION (this being the primarily tear generator) as it is now, pre-patched, works against common sense.
After a fixed amount of time following production, any major caster (ht ghost infestor) should have roughly the same amount of energy. Because of the unique feat of Protoss warp-in, their caster stores energy DURING production cycle.
So if at minute X, protoss spawns a HT, T spawns a ghost and Z spawns an infestor, the HT will benefit from a bonus pool of 40 sec mana regen that the others wont.
Standard production+ energy upgrade = warp-in production +no energy upgrade. Perfect balance.
You P players got used to having everything served on a silver platter. Learn to prepare like all the others do.
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Someone needs to ask Blizzard in a seriously manner WHY they are removing the khaydarin amulet upgrade? So Blizzard can respond in a seriously manner their train of thought on that.
Maybe but just maybe then we can have some enlightment and have a proper and fact-based discussion.
To the OP: I like your reasoning. It might not be what Blizzard was thinking though...^^
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On March 02 2011 05:25 avilo wrote:
No...are you kidding me? Terrans do not have a ghost instantenously at any point on the map. You are living in a fantasy land where ghosts are somehow the Terran equivalent of high templar. I'm not theorycrafting, I'm telling you how the game is. Moving workers to stop an HT? Look, I am not going to argue with you here, I'm not theorycrafting, I'm telling you how the game is, as will other good Protoss/Terrans. And I already addressed what typically happens with spotter units or a few units sent to kill a pylon ends up with a round of warp-ins to parry that.
Either way, it does not matter. Templar warp-in has always been very powerful, if not too powerful, which is why Blizzard is removing it
What kind of terran doesnt have ghosts in a TvP? That's some bronze-level shit right there.
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On March 02 2011 05:26 EmerTehFreek wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 05:21 Eraz0rZ wrote:On March 02 2011 05:17 EmerTehFreek wrote:
I don't see how the argument that warp in storm is the only way to deal with drops. Pretty sure that a couple well placed cannons can kill a dropship before it even lands? I dont know if i should take this serious. but first off if a terran sees a cannon it wont just barge in there it will drop away from the cannons. then stim and kill the cannons no problem (already tried this before) second static defense cost money, and they dont move. wich means, you lose in army strenght... third he can also just avoid the static kill probes and heal with medi... and run... wanna bet hes being more cost efficient then you.. Obviously you missed the "well placed" part of that. And you're saying Terran doesn't need static Turrets ever?
first off turrets are MADE for anti air. cannons are for both air and ground so weaker in that regard because they fire slower and cant kill a medi alone
Second it doesnt matter how well placed they are they still get pwned by marauders and cost 150 minerals + pylon placement near back if your counting it was the first drop dropped.
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The biggest issue I have with the removal of Khaydarin Amulets is the investment to make a unit that is practically useless for 40 seconds. The change is going to make the HT an incredibly gimmicky unit, a glorified Baneling.
Yes they can still cast feedback when they spawn. But wasting that energy is going to set the templar even further back until it can finally cast that storm.
The role of the casters of the races are so different as well. The Ghost is the unit that controls other casters by draining their energy and Protoss shields, which can be absolutely devastating and turn the tide completely, which we saw in GSL last week, in a TvZ nontheless.
The Infestor is not the main damage dealer, its role is to crowd control the enemy armies and make sure they cant micro away from banelings/AA units.
The HT is a unit that kills stuff. Protoss absolutely need units with aoe capabilities in order to deal with clumped up armies because the single target dps units P has are not good enough against a ball of death and P has the Colossus and the HT for this purpose.
The benefit of being able to warp in units anywhere there is a power field is there to compensate for the lack of mobility P has. Warping in a HT without the amulet upgrade anywhere except inside your main/natural is going to be very risky since you cant use it immediately. And since HT is one of the slowest, if not the slowest unit in the game, its going to take an incredible amount of thought and skill to time them perfectly to be where they need to be exactly when they have to be there.
I am not saying that is necessarily a bad thing, however its going to make it another thing the P player has to keep in mind at all times.
To paraphrase, an army can never move faster than its slowest unit(Day9 I think?).
If you want to "fix" the "imbalance" between casters and the game in general you need to define what the actual imbalance is. Should EMP be able to kill units to compensate for Khaydarin Amulets? Should Neural Parasite last longer/permanently? What is the actual imbalance between the casters when their roles are so different? And what is it that makes Warp in Storms imbalanced in the game in general?
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United States7483 Posts
Three problems:
First, you assume that balance between casters means approximately equal build time and time to cast. Each caster has a different function and different abilities, and it is the asymmetry that you need to balance within the whole of the race, not just look at the caster individually.
Second: The casters spells are radically different in power and effectiveness.
An EMP vs. Toss is incredibly powerful, absurdly so. Placed well, it can instantly make high templar or sentries virtually worthless, and it can easily do 1000+ damage instantly and unavoidably. It's on the terran to have good placement with it, but if he can click on your units well, you can't do anything about it. It however, cannot be stacked really. Once all the shields and energy is gone, further EMP usage is worthless, you can hit other units, but hitting the same units again is pretty pointless. Then there's snipe, which is extremely strong vs. terran bio, worker lines, and against zerg for taking out important units (like queens). Then the ghost has the ability to cloak to protect itself (it's not light either, or armored, making it the sturdiest of all 3 casters by a large margin, and the least likely to be taken out) and it has a strong attack damage. Not to mention nukes.
The Infestor's fungal growth was designed to slow pushes to give the zerg time to pump units needed, and to immobilize harassing air units and drops so that the zerg could clean it up. Now it's switching into more of a damage role, whereas it'll still root to give the zerg a little time, but will do a lot of damage in a short burst, especially to armored units like stalkers. You can possibly avoid the initial cast (if there are no speedlings present or anything), but once it's down, it can be chain cast with guaranteed success, unless they snipe your infestors. Infested Terrans have extremely good DPS, and can be spammed on worker lines, on tank lines, in marine balls when they have tank support, or just as an extra unit to deal damage in a fight. Neural parasite is a bit iffy and probably needs a buff in some way, but is still very strong if you get good positioning: allowing you to take control of the most important units in a players army. They are also the 2nd sturdiest of the units, being armored. They can burrow AND move making them sneaky and giving them a strong defensive possibility, and they are getting a hp buff so they can eat 3 tank shots to the face.
High templar have storm, feedback, and archon. Storm is good, there's no question. There are two problems: against terran, bio can easily stim and run out of it, taking less than half the damage from the storm with good reaction speed. Medivacs healing and good control can negate 3-4 storms or more almost entirely. Against zerg, it's really only particularly useful against hydras, lings and mutas, and only in large numbers for the mutas. Roaches are too durable and can actually almost outheal it while burrowed, and it's laughable against corrupters/broodlords and ultralisks. Storm is nearly useless in PvP. So already, this spell is somewhat limited in scope, whereas the primary damage spell of the other two casters is always very useful: EMP against toss is absurdly good, and snipe/nuke should be used way more. Fungal Growth as is now is a fantastic spell, I personally think the patch is nerfing it, but it'll still be good in almost every situation. Storm is useful against low hp units only. Feedback is the second spell, but with feedback, you're essentially trading casters. You make a high templar, and use his energy to take away the energy (and possibly kill) another caster. Unless your high templar is going to survive and get another feedback or a storm off later, it's usually a caster trade. Feedback is decent, but very situational. Archons are questionable: they're excellent at absorbing damage, but generally they come out too late to make a huge difference: damage soakers are most beneficial at the starts of fights where they keep your army dps as high as possible. They have decent damage, but they are slow, and not massive, so concussive shells against terran prevents them from being useful, and vs. toss forcefields shut them down. Zerg usually kills them before they can do any real damage, and the mothership/archon combo is being shut down.
Third: research requirements between units are also significantly different. Fungal is free, EMP is free. Storm? Not free. Zerg has to research neural parasite, which is very situational, which is great. You don't need it? Don't research it. You think it'll be useful? Go ahead and nab it, that's fine. Infested Terran and Merge archon are both free, as is feedback. Snipe and launch nuke are both free as well. The terran has to research cloak, and the toss has to get storm. So each race has one research to give their caster more options. The difference here is in what they do: The terran makes their caster more durable and allows him to get better positioning to use other spells. The Zerg research is incredibly situational and allows for breaking heavy mech plays or pushes, or battlecruisers or something strong like that. The protoss research is their attack spell. In other words: ghosts and infestors can do damage without researching, HT's can't. Each race has an energy upgrade for their casters, but it is being taken away from protoss.
I would argue that rate of production of the unit matters much more than build time, except when the unit is being rushed and can make or break a cheesy tactic. But, some units aren't suited to mass production. Toss needs tons of storms because the other two races both outmass with their respective builds (zerg with almost everything, terran with bio) and the toss need AoE. Storms are also not effective by themselves, they need to blanket storm the shit out of everything or it's pointless. You really only need a few ghosts to do the job as terran, and a few infestors as zerg. In other words: ghosts and infestors are usually support casters: they support your army. The High templar is a battle caster: it generally BECOMES your main damage source.
So, this type of analysis the OP put up isn't useful for these three reasons.
TLDR: Casters are asymmetrical, and balance is dependent on their inclusion within their entire race. Spells aren't equal in effect or power, and research requirements and functions are different for each caster. Build times, therefore, should not be even, because each caster has different functions.
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EPT
