EPTHowever, it's not the production time or the travel distance that's the crux of the problem (as op suggests). Instead, the problem with high Templar is storm itself. Blizzard is trying to balance the game by removing khaydarin amulet, but essentially castrating a entire tech tree be unnecessary? Instead, wouldn't the problem be solved by tweaking the way storm does damage or how much damage it does?
Khaydarin amulet analysis - Page 5
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. | ||
|
andyrau
13015 Posts
However, it's not the production time or the travel distance that's the crux of the problem (as op suggests). Instead, the problem with high Templar is storm itself. Blizzard is trying to balance the game by removing khaydarin amulet, but essentially castrating a entire tech tree be unnecessary? Instead, wouldn't the problem be solved by tweaking the way storm does damage or how much damage it does? | ||
|
Cent
Canada155 Posts
| ||
|
Eraz0rZ
Netherlands47 Posts
On March 02 2011 05:03 fraktoasters wrote: I think it's hilarious people are saying ht with storm and amulet upgrades are the only way Protoss have to deal with drops or banshees (they come way before the Protoss will have the tech). Though this begs the question, what do Zerg or Terran do to defend against drops? If a Zerg doesn't spot it, he's going to lose drones/Queens. If a Terran doesn't spot it (and it's MKP) he'll probably just lose the game, if not just scvs and addons. But if a Protoss doesn't spot a drop, he should be able to build a couple units where the drop is happening and stop it 5 seconds later? Removing the amulet doesn't stop the Protoss from just warping in and stopping the drops with other units of course, it's just that templars were so effective against it. All this does is require more scouting from Protoss players. Do you even know how toss 'deals' with banshees? they need tech, blink stalkers + obs is a way to defend. where you cant leave your base ever...and wait for tech like templar to finish the job. i ussually see most drops come, but multipronged attacks is what kills toss. they cant split there army aswell as terran can because low groups of toss army (see early game) suck without forcefields or something. and you cant forcefield a medivac wich also heals... Also toss is the most dependant on his workers. with almost no macro abilities (unlike zerg wich can easily get 3 base up and running so it wont matter asmuch if they lose there friggin base) or terran (wich have mules to compensate for workers) us protoss need 2 base fully mining to tech up to a certain level to deal with it. | ||
|
tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:57 avilo wrote: Terrans do prepare a defense against it...but even in those scenarios if it's an offensive warp-in it's still going to do damage for littel to no effort. Also, we're not even talking warp prisms here, which are absolutely amazing. On maps like xel naga, a lot of P will scatter pylons everywhere on your side of the map, and there are instances where you cannot spare a few units to kill the pylons because T as well must have their army together, and if you send a "few" units to kill a pylon or prism, the Protoss matches those few units with newly warped in ones  They're nerfing it because it's been too powerful. It always has been. As for drops, drops are different from warp-ins because drops are not instantly at any single point in the map with zero travel time. And no, a lot of times in PvT drops are not pre-emptively defended by Protoss. Good players do stop drops by being ready, but a large majority of the time newly warped in templar/gateway units stop drops. It's too powerful. Imagine being able to call-down a nuke anywhere on the map...that's essentially what warp-in templar storm is. Maybe Blizz will give that to Terran in an expansion pack ^_^ just kidding lol. Avilo, it takes 1 ghost to stop this. You should have ghosts if you have done scouting right? All you have to do in every case as a Terran is see the templar coming, whether thats from having vision on the high ground, a single forward marine, a single supply depot, whatever. If you see the HT coming, you can move your workers and deal with the HT. The HT is not fast like a hellion, so it can't destroy your scvs as they run. It isn't a seige tank that, together with a few marines, can sit seiged and nail your expansion for minutes on end. It isn't an infestor or a ghost that can become undetectable and avoid death. It IS a unit that is typically killed soon after it has been used once. I don't agree with comparing it to a nuke either, the HT requires a stationary target, surprise, slow reactions, and is clumped with other units in the small template to be effective. | ||
|
brutality
United States167 Posts
| ||
|
Kralic
Canada2628 Posts
Really Protoss are upset they can't warp in HT's with storm to stop drops? Here is an easy solution. Warp in x HT's. x = # of drop ships. Use the HT's to zap the drop ships with feedback then warp them into archons and use your remaining warp gate warps to warp in actual units to kill the forces that can no longer be healed by zapped dropships. | ||
|
Sek-Kuar
Czech Republic593 Posts
On March 02 2011 05:06 andyrau wrote: Even with OP's numbers and statistics, the removal of +25 energy from HTs is a bit uncalled for. I agree that with warpin storms, Protoss seems invincible, and the notion that you can warp in storms at any desired location is a bit overwhelming. However, it's not the production time or the travel distance that's the crux of the problem (as op suggests). Instead, the problem with high Templar is storm itself. Blizzard is trying to balance the game by removing khaydarin amulet, but essentially castrating a entire tech tree be unnecessary? Instead, wouldn't the problem be solved by tweaking the way storm does damage or how much damage it does? I dont agree with you, thats why I posted this. IMO if Zerg has to plan and prepare at least 50 seconds before to cast "powerful" Fungal Growth, its good think for strategy. But if Protoss can cast "powerful" Storm with no preparation at all, then its better IMHO to implement this "preparation factor" and make Storm as good as FG is. Im not saying that FG is better than Storm or whatever, but IMO most important thing is to keep strategy aspects (i.e. required plans and preparation) and then balance Storm the way that its worth that 50 seconds delay. Just like FG has 50 seconds delay. | ||
|
Endorsed
Netherlands1221 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:59 red_b wrote: the whole purpose of the warpgate is the unique ability for a race that switches tech EXCEPTIONALLY slow to have some quick response. Im sorry but it seems like too many T players around here want free wins. Im not saying that the game is well thought out, but P late game dominance is really the only thing keeping the win-loss for PvT reasonable. You know maybe taking away amulet is a good thing, if blizzard actually wises up to the problem of game phase imbalance. Of course if they are just trying to usher in a second age of Terran domination (which I sadly think is more likely) then it sucks. 30 second stim increase. You seriously don't now how much that hurts terran early and midgame. | ||
|
Rob28
Canada705 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:57 avilo wrote: Terrans do prepare a defense against it...but even in those scenarios if it's an offensive warp-in it's still going to do damage for littel to no effort. Also, we're not even talking warp prisms here, which are absolutely amazing. On maps like xel naga, a lot of P will scatter pylons everywhere on your side of the map, and there are instances where you cannot spare a few units to kill the pylons because T as well must have their army together, and if you send a "few" units to kill a pylon or prism, the Protoss matches those few units with newly warped in ones They're nerfing it because it's been too powerful. It always has been. As for drops, drops are different from warp-ins because drops are not instantly at any single point in the map with zero travel time. And no, a lot of times in PvT drops are not pre-emptively defended by Protoss. Good players do stop drops by being ready, but a large majority of the time newly warped in templar/gateway units stop drops. It's too powerful. Imagine being able to call-down a nuke anywhere on the map...that's essentially what warp-in templar storm is. Maybe Blizz will give that to Terran in an expansion pack ^_^ just kidding lol. Lol, you people act as if a warp-in storm is like calling lightning from heaven. First of all, you need a pylon built (time + money + danger of failure) or a warp prism (build time + travel time + money + food) to call in HT. If you can't kill a proxy pylon built inside your base, then you have my pressing matters to worry about. It's not like it's easy for probes to just waltz in and set up a pylon in your mineral line, or for a warp prism to stand up to even a single marine. If you want to compare, ghosts are waaaay more OP in that regard (cloak > walk/drop to target > no-energy nuke). Id rather have an enemy HT in my mineral line than a cloaked ghost and a detected nuclear launch... hell, even the ghost without the nuke worries me more. In fact, it's probably more efficient to drop a few dts into a mineral line most of the time rather than storming it. Add to this the fact that you get 1 non-stacking storm per HT brought in, and it's really not even fair to compare the two. My 2 cents: if you're gonna drop amulet, you need to make up for it. Make psi storm free and already researched, or costing less energy. Or give HT a base attack (I know, sacreligion) An archon buff wouldnt hurt too (range would be nice). Other than that, there would be really no need to choose HT over colossus in the tech tree if they couldn't research insta-storm. | ||
Falling
Canada11265 Posts
Going into Beta and then switching back to BW, I always found storm rather disappointing compared to the damage BW storms would do to bio and even mech. | ||
|
Barca
United States418 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:48 DoubleReed wrote: Erm... under the OP's logic, wouldn't it be totally reasonable to lower the cooldown time of HTs if the Amulet is removed? Actually, under the OP's logic, there shouldn't be a Warpgate cooldown for any unit since it "doesn't matter" when considering the production time. | ||
|
Sprouter
United States1724 Posts
| ||
|
Eraz0rZ
Netherlands47 Posts
On March 02 2011 05:11 Kralic wrote: Very interesting way to look at it. Sparks an interesting theory of how they reasoned out this change. Really Protoss are upset they can't warp in HT's with storm to stop drops? Here is an easy solution. Warp in x HT's. x = # of drop ships. Use the HT's to zap the drop ships with feedback then warp them into archons and use your remaining warp gate warps to warp in actual units to kill the forces that can no longer be healed by zapped dropships. THen we still have the problem of stimmed units running about in our main where we need to prepare templar (super high gas cost for protoss and tier 3 units wich you dont want in your base but on the offensive) and .. gateway units wich always get pwned by MM stimmed units even without healing... still the medi wont die when feedbacked so it can just kill some probes and get out of there... 1 marauder can endlessly kite a archon so thats a big nono aswell | ||
|
tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On March 02 2011 05:05 Housemd wrote: Wait, I find a mishap in your logic. You state that Terran can stop storms by making some vikings to stop incoming Warp Prisms but what about Protoss? Can't they have some High Templar at their expansions to feedback when a medivac comes in? Why don't they just make some phoenixes and patrol their expansions? Also, protoss have one of the most mobile unit in the game, the STALKER. Blink stalker is one of the most mobile units in the game and could be used to defend drops and other forms of harassment. Every suggestion of yours is flawed. You assume the medivac has at least 150 energy, that I have a stargate and phoenix IN ADDITION to my tech path, and that I have stalkers nearby with blink already researched. It's great the stalker is mobile... Does it have to fight MMM too? That's the problem. If I have these mobile stalkers, I need a shitload to defend a drop, and I'm not talking 4 or 5. Terran already have a starport and a reactor if they went bio, which they do most of the time. The argument is that Protoss doesn't have the unit they need, that it exists on a whole different tech path. Terran, however, have instant access to their unit since their techpath has already been reached. | ||
|
ChoboFreek
Canada83 Posts
| ||
|
Aequos
Canada606 Posts
On March 02 2011 05:03 fraktoasters wrote: I think it's hilarious people are saying ht with storm and amulet upgrades are the only way Protoss have to deal with drops or banshees (they come way before the Protoss will have the tech). Though this begs the question, what do Zerg or Terran do to defend against drops? If a Zerg doesn't spot it, he's going to lose drones/Queens. If a Terran doesn't spot it (and it's MKP) he'll probably just lose the game, if not just scvs and addons. But if a Protoss doesn't spot a drop, he should be able to build a couple units where the drop is happening and stop it 5 seconds later? Removing the amulet doesn't stop the Protoss from just warping in and stopping the drops with other units of course, it's just that templars were so effective against it. All this does is require more scouting from Protoss players. This is what every other race deals with. Terran drops are insanely hard to deal with as Zerg and Terrans. The Jinro vs MKP match, Jinro has to put a bunch of turrets around his base. Zergs need to surround their bases with overlords so they can snipe the dropships before they can drop everything. Watch the high level ZvT on gsl, Terran's win by dropping because it is so effective. I'm not saying its wrong or imba, but stop acting like Protoss somehow will be more vulnerable to it. However, each of the other races has a far safer way of getting their units to deal with a drop. For Terran, Planetary Fortresses and Bunkers can both extend the life of your defenses. MMM is also some of the most cost efficient units in small numbers, so that only a few of them can hold off a drop from Zerg or Protoss. Zerg has the advantage of having really fast units when on creep, especially zerglings. Although they may not hold off a drop solo, they buy the extra 3-4 seconds for the Zerg to sprint there. Protoss are inefficient in small numbers, but much better in composition. Hence, when 8 marines are dropped in our mineral lines, it takes far more than the cost-efficient 4-5 stalkers to fend off. | ||
|
jacobmarlow
Canada100 Posts
Wait, I find a mishap in your logic. You state that Terran can stop storms by making some vikings to stop incoming Warp Prisms but what about Protoss? Can't they have some High Templar at their expansions to feedback when a medivac comes in? Why don't they just make some phoenixes and patrol their expansions? Also, protoss have one of the most mobile unit in the game, the STALKER. Blink stalker is one of the most mobile units in the game and could be used to defend drops and other forms of harassment. Once again the discussion was about defending drops when they happen Thats what warping in HT with storms is used for... not preventing the drops in the first place. Having said this? Blink stalkers? do you really want to discuss the outcome of a group of stlakers vs a drop ship of stimmed marauders?? Assuming u get there in time with ur blink stalks, who do u think wins that battle? unless u bring a very large group of stlakers.... Leaving Ht's in ur base anticipating drops???? yeah coz they are so cheap we can afford to leaving them in the base and not keep them to engage with our army right??? Also they are very sturdy so once we do realize we are being dropped, the ht's can live long enough for us to cast a storm instantly right?? right?? (SARCASM INTENDED) | ||
|
fraktoasters
United States617 Posts
On March 02 2011 05:09 Eraz0rZ wrote: Do you even know how toss 'deals' with banshees? they need tech, blink stalkers + obs is a way to defend. where you cant leave your base ever...and wait for tech like templar to finish the job. i ussually see most drops come, but multipronged attacks is what kills toss. they cant split there army aswell as terran can because low groups of toss army (see early game) suck without forcefields or something. and you cant forcefield a medivac wich also heals... Also toss is the most dependant on his workers. with almost no macro abilities (unlike zerg wich can easily get 3 base up and running so it wont matter asmuch if they lose there friggin base) or terran (wich have mules to compensate for workers) us protoss need 2 base fully mining to tech up to a certain level to deal with it. Oh yeah I forgot that Protoss can't speed up their probe production >_> And losing a base as a Zerg is a really big deal. You're not just losing workers but also a production facility. Not to mention Zergs want to be ahead in bases. Denying zerg expansions is the best way to kill him. The Haypro games this season come to mind. You know how Zerg 'deals' with banshees? We make flying units (which is also our defense against drops), because _surprise_ banshees don't hit air. There have been so many games won by Terran drops against Protoss where all the Protoss really should have done is build a couple pheonixes to shut it down. And excuse me for not knowing how Protoss 'deals' with it because I've never actually seen it being done in a casted game. Usually you just see stalkers and obs dealing with it and occasionally see templars used to feedback them, without any need for amulet. Everyone seriously needs to stop pretending that Protoss are the only race that are killed by drops or have a hard time with multi-pronged attacks. | ||
|
jcroisdale
United States1543 Posts
Your stats dont do anything except compare all 3 races on an even playing field, which they are far from. | ||
|
Eraz0rZ
Netherlands47 Posts
On March 02 2011 05:17 EmerTehFreek wrote: I don't see how the argument that warp in storm is the only way to deal with drops. Pretty sure that a couple well placed cannons can kill a dropship before it even lands? I dont know if i should take this serious. but first off if a terran sees a cannon it wont just barge in there it will drop away from the cannons. then stim and kill the cannons no problem (already tried this before) second static defense cost money, and they dont move. wich means, you lose in army strenght... third he can also just avoid the static kill probes and heal with medi... and run... wanna bet hes being more cost efficient then you.. | ||
| ||
