EPTKhaydarin amulet analysis - Page 3
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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. | ||
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Blackk
South Africa226 Posts
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Aesop
Hungary11304 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:35 Blackk wrote: I really feel the need to point out the fact that the word is "analysis" Changed, just for you! | ||
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Encrypto
United States442 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:09 Sek-Kuar wrote: It takes 45 sec to produce Ghost ready for EMP with energy upgrade. It takes 50 sec to produce Infestor ready for FG with energy upgrade. It takes 49,5 sec to produce HT ready for Storm without energy upgrade. This is a really great way of looking at it, and I really respect this type of logic. Thanks for this analysis, and I completely agree that this will balance casters. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:34 Aesop wrote: I think the OPs argument is about the "reaction time" you have between "realizing you need spellcasters" and actually "having them available with 75 energy". So assuming your warpgate cooldown is anywhere between ready and just spent, you have between 5 and 50 seconds to react. That gives an average reaction time of 27.5 seconds. With the 44.5 seconds to regenerate added to it, the "average templar reaction time" would be 72 seconds instead of ~50 for the other casters. Please forgive me, I don't understand your direction... 72 seconds for HT compared to ~50 for the others looks like a disadvantage to me, and when does a person "realize they need spellcasters" as opposed to just build them? | ||
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Kazang
578 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:29 Willes wrote: Dont forget the fact that HT can morph to Archons right after storms, thats a huge advantage in fights Not really as a templar with no energy doesn't do anything, which is why they can morph into Archons in the first place. Infestors, while technically unable to attack when out of energy, have lower energy spells than a templar so it takes less time to be useful again, they can also burrow and/or run away from combat to regen, templar however can't becasue they move like a fly stuck in treacle. Likewise Ghost, Raven, Queen have abilities and usefulness even when out of energy. | ||
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + "What does this mean? When production is triggered by something, lets say when you notice enemy coming towards you and start producing Ghost, Infestor or HT, it will look like this. If Zerg has free larva, and energy upgrade for Infestors researched, it will take 50 seconds to get Infestor with 75 energy, and then Infestor has to move where is needed. If Terran has non-occupied Barrack, and energy upgrade for Ghosts researched, it will take 45 seconds to get Ghost with 75 energy, and then Ghost has to move where is needed. If Protoss has non-occupied Warpgate, and Khaydarin Amulet is not researched, it will take 49,5 seconds to get HT with 75 energy, and HT will be ready where is needed." You forgot to mention we have to research storm*. You sound like a troll (okay not a troll, but someone who justifiably hates High Templar) trying to justify a patch that may or may not come (I actually hope it does come. I want stim increased research time, some change to the amulet, and even a zerg buff). And your comparing different units on different races with different costs and timings, things should not always be equal, and those are vary tough comparisons to make (if you could I bet you could balance this game). You could even argue that ghost play at this point is underdeveloped in a lot of Terran players. Its a unit I think even pros still have untapped potential for (so many abilities inc. Nuke O.o). But as a Protoss player I will admit that yes warping in storms at will does indeed feel ridiculous at times, though absolutely necessary in some situations hehehe. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:34 Willes wrote: Morphing into Archons also is an advantage of the caster ,compared to ghosts, emp dont need research, well you have the possibility to morph archons, without amulet the HT is far away from beeing weak or useless, Archons have uses, and you still can storm and feedback, if you talk about balance of units, u need to take more than 1 spell into discussion Archons have no bearing on the discussion since morphing into them is an active choice and not something automatically done when the HT reaches 0 energy. The damage output of a HT is much higher than the archon given the archons average life expectancy in a fight. The fact that it can be stim kited by marauders is another downside to the unit. Archons are not great at all, and making them is something you do when you are out of all other alternatives: when your HT is 0 energy and Terran is knocking at your door, or when detectors are out and you still have DT on the map | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
I remember playing some off-race as protoss, whenever I got a PvT and managed to get the amulet I won lol. Now protoss will have to actually prepare a defense...just like SC1. You can still do warp in templar to any point on the map with pylon power, but it can't be ah, "oh shit i didn't defend here, let me warp in 5 templar and make an entire army go bye bye ^_^" | ||
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Aesop
Hungary11304 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:39 tehemperorer wrote: Please forgive me, I don't understand your direction... 72 seconds for HT compared to ~50 for the others looks like a disadvantage to me, and when does a person "realize they need spellcasters" as opposed to just build them? I was starting from the line in the OP: When production is triggered by something, lets say when you notice enemy coming towards you and start producing Ghost, Infestor or HT, it will look like this. Following that assumption, you would have your production triggered by "oh damn, he has tons of marines while I was expecting Marauders" or something like that. Of course, the time to get a HT ready if you just build it is the 49.5 seconds. But reactively building them for Storm will depend on your warpgate cooldown. | ||
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Blackk
South Africa226 Posts
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Eraz0rZ
Netherlands47 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:34 Willes wrote: Morphing into Archons also is an advantage of the caster ,compared to ghosts, emp dont need research, well you have the possibility to morph archons, without amulet the HT is far away from beeing weak or useless, Archons have uses, and you still can storm and feedback, if you talk about balance of units, u need to take more than 1 spell into discussion What you are forgetting when morphing in an archon is that you LOSE the templar's ability to storm or to do anything templarish its an entirely different unit. Its big and bulky (bad AI) AND STILL gets owned by ghost. they have a small radius of splash thats it ... and take time to warpin (in the midst of battle wich make them sort of like a wall wich doesnt even attack) archons are only used to stall an opponent while your trying to macro an army back up. and if your mass archon spamming(without them dying) its only because you have probably already won atleast that battle and lost more high templar wich would be able to storm. (also do note 1 archon COSTS 100-300 if templars are insta merged) | ||
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Housemd
United States1407 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:40 Wrongspeedy wrote: What Protoss players were complaining about Warp-gate? While your number crunching, tell me how long it takes you to get a ghost with an emp in a real 1v1 game, then tell me how long it takes to do the same with an HT and storm. Why can't the ghost and infestor move after he is done being made? + Show Spoiler + "What does this mean? When production is triggered by something, lets say when you notice enemy coming towards you and start producing Ghost, Infestor or HT, it will look like this. If Zerg has free larva, and energy upgrade for Infestors researched, it will take 50 seconds to get Infestor with 75 energy, and then Infestor has to move where is needed. If Terran has non-occupied Barrack, and energy upgrade for Ghosts researched, it will take 45 seconds to get Ghost with 75 energy, and then Ghost has to move where is needed. If Protoss has non-occupied Warpgate, and Khaydarin Amulet is not researched, it will take 49,5 seconds to get HT with 75 energy, and HT will be ready where is needed." You forgot to mention we have to research storm*. You sound like a troll (okay not a troll, but someone who justifiably hates High Templar) trying to justify a patch that may or may not come (I actually hope it does come. I want stim increased research time, some change to the amulet, and even a zerg buff). And your comparing different units on different races with different costs and timings, things should not always be equal, and those are vary tough comparisons to make (if you could I bet you could balance this game). You could even argue that ghost play at this point is underdeveloped in a lot of Terran players. Its a unit I think even pros still have untapped potential for (so many abilities inc. Nuke O.o). But as a Protoss player I will admit that yes warping in storms at will does indeed feel ridiculous at times, though absolutely necessary in some situations hehehe. I just wanted to ask you, in what situations is warping in storms absolutely necessary? | ||
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Kazang
578 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:42 Blackk wrote: Well a raven can detect, but it's unreasonable to state that a ghost's pellet gun is any good (unless you are talking about nukes...) Ghosts actually do really good damage against light units, a ghost can take out a mineral line pretty fast. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:42 Aesop wrote: I was starting from the line in the OP: Following that assumption, you would have your production triggered by "oh damn, he has tons of marines while I was expecting Marauders" or something like that. Of course, the time to get a HT ready if you just build it is the 49.5 seconds. But reactively building them for Storm will depend on your warpgate cooldown. Right, that's what I thought you were saying. Let's just say that if I went HT tech, I am going to get HT mostly based on how much gas/minerals I have, not on what the Terran unit comp is. I already know he has bio from earlier encounters, and I know that HT are still pretty effective against Marauder, so there is no point in time where I would wait to build HT and make zeal/stalker instead. I got the tech, I am going to build the unit. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:44 Housemd wrote: I just wanted to ask you, in what situations is warping in storms absolutely necessary? When you're on 2 bases (main and DR), the Terran is pushing near your ramp on DQ with bio, and you went HT tech. Now you need warp in storms. | ||
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Eraz0rZ
Netherlands47 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:44 Housemd wrote: I just wanted to ask you, in what situations is warping in storms absolutely necessary? even i can tell you that when your being multiple places harrassed the toss army ussually is only strong in a single ball since the units empower eachother. But the protoss ball is also really slow. so if your being harrased at a expo (3 dropships worth of units) and his main army is attacking you. you WILL lose the expo without proper storms (wich in turn are pretty hard to pull of while multipronge angle attacking) | ||
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dragonblade369
Canada464 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:44 Housemd wrote: I just wanted to ask you, in what situations is warping in storms absolutely necessary? It's one of few things that protoss had to defend against drops... | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:42 avilo wrote: Lots of protoss players themselves were saying that the amulet is too powerful...so yeah...this chang should have come a while ago. It's bad game design to have a match-up where, "i researched khadyarin now the game is over." Which PvT was sorta devolving into. I remember playing some off-race as protoss, whenever I got a PvT and managed to get the amulet I won lol. Now protoss will have to actually prepare a defense...just like SC1. You can still do warp in templar to any point on the map with pylon power, but it can't be ah, "oh shit i didn't defend here, let me warp in 5 templar and make an entire army go bye bye ^_^" I respect your level Avilo, but can't as a Protoss I say now Terran should prepare a defense against warp in storms? The balls in their court; if Terran can't put a single viking on patrol near their natural mineral line to stop the WP, whose fault is that? Protoss players have experienced hellion drops so many times we're used to it and preempt it, why can't Terrans do the same? | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
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Housemd
United States1407 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:47 Eraz0rZ wrote: even i can tell you that when your being multiple places harrassed the toss army ussually is only strong in a single ball since the units empower eachother. But the protoss ball is also really slow. so if your being harrased at a expo (3 dropships worth of units) and his main army is attacking you. you WILL lose the expo without proper storms (wich in turn are pretty hard to pull of while multipronge angle attacking) Thanks for the quick response. I'm new to Starcraft 2 and don't really understand the game too well so I'm trying to learn. | ||
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