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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:48 DoubleReed wrote: Erm... under the OP's logic, wouldn't it be totally reasonable to lower the cooldown time of HTs if the Amulet is removed? It's still limited by number of geysers so when HT tech is achieved the limiting factor isn't CD time it's most likely gas. | ||
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Kazang
578 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:48 dragonblade369 wrote: It's one of few things that protoss had to defend against drops... You mean one of the many ways protoss can defend against drops, alongside cannons, feedback, blink stalkers, the fastest air unit in the game, just having dudes defend your base just like zerg has to. | ||
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Supah
708 Posts
One may assume Protoss has this "instant" ability, but while the production cycles are reversed, there are still production cycles. The warping in during battle occurs more often than not because the Protoss macro slips, not because one waits to reactively drop what units are necessary. Your argument falls apart when you say: When production is triggered by something, lets say when you notice enemy coming towards you and start producing Ghost, Infestor or HT, it will look like this... Reactive production is only done in the case of Zerg, and even then, not to the degree that you go from 0 army to fighting army. But in the case of the aforementioned units, the last thing you want to do is to reactively make them. Amulet is necessary because of the weakness of the Gateway army. Infestors and Ghosts are almost never the crucial unit. If a Z goes Mutas, or if a T stays MMM, then one NEEDS HTs, the way the other races work, they never truly NEED their own respective casters. One cannot just say "that's a caster" and equalize, roles and relative importance are completely different. | ||
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Endorsed
Netherlands1221 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:31 tehemperorer wrote: Don't worry, no one is forgetting it. The reason it isn't mentioned is because it doesn't matter in the slightest, and archons have absolutely no power over MMM Complete bull. Archons are amazing. They tank damage redic hard. I've seen pro terrans lose because at the end there were 4 archons left tearing through the 15 or so marines. They have great DPS, really amazing in against small MM forces. | ||
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Darneck
Sweden1394 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:51 Endorsed wrote: Complete bull. Archons are amazing. They tank damage redic hard. I've seen pro terrans lose because at the end there were 4 archons left tearing through the 15 or so marines. They have great DPS, really amazing in against small MM forces. Marines maybe, add a marauder and say bye bye mr archon. A great buff to the archons would be them not being affected by concussive. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
It takes 45 sec to produce Ghost ready for EMP with energy upgrade. It takes 50 sec to produce Infestor ready for FG with energy upgrade. It takes 49,5 sec to produce HT ready for Storm without energy upgrade though i understand your logic and it makes sense But it disregards that cooldowns effects what builded afterwards and that getting Warpgates also cost Production time. | ||
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Sek-Kuar
Czech Republic593 Posts
 (>Analysis)Second, to everyone saying that HT nerf should be followed by low-tech unit (Im not going to say "tiers") buff - I agree. Third, to everyone who said that diversity is important - I agree, I just dont think that this kind of diversity (Protoss needs 5 sec to do something that Zerg needs 50+ seconds to do) is good thing. And final, to everyone saying that cooldown of previous unit affect current unit - you are wrong. It affect "production rate", and in SC2 production rate =/= prodution time. For example reactored Factory can build 4 Helions in minute, but it doesnt mean that production time of Helion is reduced to 15 seconds. It only doubles "production rate". Another example: Zerg can get 10 Ultralisk from one Hatchery per minute (with no stockpiled larvae)- thats "production rate". Production time is always 70 seconds. Warpgate timeline: 0:05 HT created (1) 0:45 cooldown expires 0:50 HT created (2) 1:30 cooldown expires 1:35 HT created (3) 2:15 cooldown expires Barrack with Tech Lab timeline: 0:45 Ghost created (1) 1:30 Ghost created (2) 2:15 Ghost created (3) So as you can see, you are getting every unit, not just first, with 40 seconds reduced build time. All that cooldown does is keeping same "production rate". But it does not affect production time. | ||
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ilikeLIONZ
Germany427 Posts
i'm really curious how this change is gonna affect the protoss drop defense, i can't wait to see new ways to deal with (multi-)drops. | ||
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:47 Eraz0rZ wrote: even i can tell you that when your being multiple places harrassed the toss army ussually is only strong in a single ball since the units empower eachother. But the protoss ball is also really slow. so if your being harrased at a expo (3 dropships worth of units) and his main army is attacking you. you WILL lose the expo without proper storms (wich in turn are pretty hard to pull of while multipronge angle attacking) Practically any time I'm not near an undefended mineral line... Or like others have said, off 2 base you need it to hold off any strong pushes (even with a few HT warped in after you start researching storm, to collect energy, omg yes Protoss players do that too). | ||
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Eraz0rZ
Netherlands47 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:53 Darneck wrote: Marines maybe, add a marauder and say bye bye mr archon. A great buff to the archons would be them not being affected by concussive. And them being a tad smaller so they arent as retarded as ultralisk Ai (for god sake they are 2 templar the smartest toss unit alive and it cant even move behind a mineral field because the AI thinks the unit is smaller!) also add a bit more range and i might even consider going templar once again after the patch lol. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:48 tehemperorer wrote: I respect your level Avilo, but can't as a Protoss I say now Terran should prepare a defense against warp in storms? The balls in their court; if Terran can't put a single viking on patrol near their natural mineral line to stop the WP, whose fault is that? Protoss players have experienced hellion drops so many times we're used to it and preempt it, why can't Terrans do the same? Terrans do prepare a defense against it...but even in those scenarios if it's an offensive warp-in it's still going to do damage for littel to no effort. Also, we're not even talking warp prisms here, which are absolutely amazing. On maps like xel naga, a lot of P will scatter pylons everywhere on your side of the map, and there are instances where you cannot spare a few units to kill the pylons because T as well must have their army together, and if you send a "few" units to kill a pylon or prism, the Protoss matches those few units with newly warped in ones They're nerfing it because it's been too powerful. It always has been. As for drops, drops are different from warp-ins because drops are not instantly at any single point in the map with zero travel time. And no, a lot of times in PvT drops are not pre-emptively defended by Protoss. Good players do stop drops by being ready, but a large majority of the time newly warped in templar/gateway units stop drops. It's too powerful. Imagine being able to call-down a nuke anywhere on the map...that's essentially what warp-in templar storm is. Maybe Blizz will give that to Terran in an expansion pack ^_^ just kidding lol. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:50 Kazang wrote: You mean one of the many ways protoss can defend against drops, alongside cannons, feedback, blink stalkers, the fastest air unit in the game, just having dudes defend your base just like zerg has to. 1 medivac loaded with MM demolishes cannons, stalkers. A newly created Medivac doesn't have enough energy to kill with feedback, and if you did go cannons, you lost the game because you wasted minerals in static D that Terran bio is naturally go against. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
 still you take away the advantage of Protoss Warpgates with this change. which is giving Protoss the ability to warp in the units needed. Also you disregard the time Protoss needs to get the Tech for HT and Storm though your production argument is consistent a Terran has ghosts already for EMP, while Storm is not even close. same for Infestors Amulet in that regard was the Payoff for it beeing such a long techtree. If Amulet is removed, then Storm research should be removed too, cause that is time that needs to be done additional to everything else. so if i want to use ur logic: 45 Seconds for Ghost -> EMP ready 50 Seconds for Infestor -> Storm ready 50 Seconds for HT -> Energy for Storm ready (but Storm isn't researched yet 8D) so now it would be 110 Seconds for HT -> Storm ready see how that view fails now? if all races would get their spell casters at the same time, and didn't have the need to research their spell, then your logic would make absolute sense. But this isn't the case, Storms are the longest of tech of the 3 and the opponents can outproduce them if they wanted. | ||
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red_b
United States1267 Posts
Im sorry but it seems like too many T players around here want free wins. Im not saying that the game is well thought out, but P late game dominance is really the only thing keeping the win-loss for PvT reasonable. You know maybe taking away amulet is a good thing, if blizzard actually wises up to the problem of game phase imbalance. Of course if they are just trying to usher in a second age of Terran domination (which I sadly think is more likely) then it sucks. | ||
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CaptainHaz
United States240 Posts
While this may equalize how the casters function, it doesn't in anyway balance out their effects on gameplay.For instance, just because marauders have a slowing ability, doesn't mean roaches or stalkers should. Arguing that things are broken because they are different on a mechanical level as opposed to a fundamental level doesn't make any sense. While it may be more fair, it unbalances how templar work since their slow speed doesn't keep them as efficient units in the army when retreating. Yes, casters are more equal, that's great. It is also however, immensely stupid to assume that because they are equal, it makes a balanced game. Looking at this in terms of pure numbers just doesn't form a stable argument. | ||
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jacobmarlow
Canada100 Posts
You mean one of the many ways protoss can defend against drops, alongside cannons, feedback, blink stalkers, the fastest air unit in the game, just having dudes defend your base just like zerg has to. do you know how many stalkers and zealots it takes to kill a single drop ship with marines and marauders with stim?? Your saying that the solution to dealing with drops effectively as protoss is to prevent them from even landing at all? that doesnt make any sense. We are talking about delaing with drops WHEN they happen. When they do happen, ur saying all is lost? the protoss should be punished and be forced to retreat a quarter of his entire army to clean up one drop ship? Just not a very smart comment. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:51 Endorsed wrote: Complete bull. Archons are amazing. They tank damage redic hard. I've seen pro terrans lose because at the end there were 4 archons left tearing through the 15 or so marines. They have great DPS, really amazing in against small MM forces. Respectfully, you are wrong, you should play protoss and see how far archons get you. Because archons were left vs 15 marines in a pro game happened as an anecdote is not indicative of the vast majority of cases where HT are warped in for a storm, morph, and die, sometimes even while morphin. You're words seem to neglect the fact that after 12 seconds (morph time of archon) that the fight is still happening. By that time, either side has usually won, meaning the morph wasn't instrumental in winning, or it won't help you after you've lost. Typically, High Templar die after a single storm, because of their speed and low hp totals, and how the casting range of storm is within the range of most ranged units of all 3 races. | ||
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fraktoasters
United States617 Posts
Though this begs the question, what do Zerg or Terran do to defend against drops? If a Zerg doesn't spot it, he's going to lose drones/Queens. If a Terran doesn't spot it (and it's MKP) he'll probably just lose the game, if not just scvs and addons. But if a Protoss doesn't spot a drop, he should be able to build a couple units where the drop is happening and stop it 5 seconds later? Removing the amulet doesn't stop the Protoss from just warping in and stopping the drops with other units of course, it's just that templars were so effective against it. All this does is require more scouting from Protoss players. On March 02 2011 04:59 jacobmarlow wrote: Reply to Kazang above. do you know how many stalkers and zealots it takes to kill a single drop ship with marines and marauders with stim?? Your saying that the solution to dealing with drops effectively as protoss is to prevent them from even landing at all? that doesnt make any sense. We are talking about delaing with drops WHEN they happen. When they do happen, ur saying all is lost? the protoss should be punished and be forced to retreat a quarter of his entire army to clean up one drop ship? Just not a very smart comment. This is what every other race deals with. Terran drops are insanely hard to deal with as Zerg and Terrans. The Jinro vs MKP match, Jinro has to put a bunch of turrets around his base. Zergs need to surround their bases with overlords so they can snipe the dropships before they can drop everything. Watch the high level ZvT on gsl, Terran's win by dropping because it is so effective. I'm not saying its wrong or imba, but stop acting like Protoss somehow will be more vulnerable to it. | ||
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Trowabarton756
United States870 Posts
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Housemd
United States1407 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:48 tehemperorer wrote: I respect your level Avilo, but can't as a Protoss I say now Terran should prepare a defense against warp in storms? The balls in their court; if Terran can't put a single viking on patrol near their natural mineral line to stop the WP, whose fault is that? Protoss players have experienced hellion drops so many times we're used to it and preempt it, why can't Terrans do the same? Wait, I find a mishap in your logic. You state that Terran can stop storms by making some vikings to stop incoming Warp Prisms but what about Protoss? Can't they have some High Templar at their expansions to feedback when a medivac comes in? Why don't they just make some phoenixes and patrol their expansions? Also, protoss have one of the most mobile unit in the game, the STALKER. Blink stalker is one of the most mobile units in the game and could be used to defend drops and other forms of harassment. | ||
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