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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
The thing what makes sc2 interesting it that it has 3 different races. Each of them has unique featues like Warp-In/Choosing between Worker and Drone/Lifting/....
Let's see: Zerg only needs 1 tech-building to go for 80 Supply Broodlords/Ultralisks, but Protoss and Terran need at least 3.
That wouldn't make any sene at all, because the sc2 races are meant to be that different. And the same thing goes for the Spellcasters (it's funny btw how you don't talk about Sentry/Queen/Raven....). Protoss needs the instant Storm or he has to scout every lategame attack 50 seconds before it occurs and literally has no chance to ever do a counterattack or be able to defend against EMP.
Not to mention that Protoss wont be able to defend against Drops anymore, because you need at least 8 Warpgate units to kill 4 Marauder.
You're right about question 1, but question 2 is just 100x times more important.
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On March 02 2011 04:23 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:21 fadestep wrote:
Casters are balanced now? Great. Let's buff the shit out of Gateway units so they don't get roflstomped by Rax units. They don't at smaller numbers unless you dont' use sentries or suck with FF.
You know the new ladder maps have many wide open areas to fight in right? How many sentries do we need now to FF effectively? How does having more sentries affect our army effectiveness?
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You say that the production of the previous unit is part of the production time of the current unit is ridiculous, but then you go on to say that High Templars only take 5 seconds to warp in, then the Warpgate is "occupied" for 45 seconds. Your first statement allows you to ignore the Warpgate cooldown for the rest of your argument, and that is something that cannot be ignored.
High Templars "occupy" your production buildings for 50 seconds. If I only have 1 gateway and I warp in a High Templar, I cannot warp in anything else during that span of 50 seconds. If a Terran player has 1 Barracks, he can only make 1 Ghost, so that Ghost will occupy that Barracks for 45 seconds.
You cannot ignore the cooldown of the previous unit. This is the case because Protoss production is backwards - unit first, cooldown after. The Warpgate mechanic forces you to wait for the first unit to finish before you get the second unit. So even though you say counting the previous units production cycle is ridiculous, it is accurate in determining the ability for a Protoss to produce units since the means at which Protoss get units is backwards.
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theres no point in talking about "balancing casters" outside of the context of "balancing the game" since the point of SC2 is to have 3 races that pay radically different.
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Hungary11305 Posts
I like your analysis, since it doesn't jump to conclusions.
However, the production cycle reversal is true in all cases - not only for HT, but also for getting anti-air or emergency-defense at your expansions. Regarding what the OP says:
But there is one thing Im 100% sure about - if we will have similar caster, using similar mechanics and taking similar time to produce, it will be definitely easier to balance game around that...
Equalizing is not always balancing, since the races are built differently anyway. In that case, you ought to leave the Khaydarin amulet in the game and remove the warpgate functionality (which would be absurd).
What I like about the change is that you actually need to plan ahead when you want to use HTs with Storm. And Warp Prisms for stormdrops might become even more important.
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Dont forget the fact that HT can morph to Archons right after storms, thats a huge advantage in fights
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Removing the HT will make Protoss very underpowered.
Reasons why
1. Unlike ghosts you need to research storm which 120seconds.
2. Also this research costs 200,200. Ghosts come with EMP ready. EMP also takes its full effect instantaneously(ie you cannot dodge it). Storm does damage over time very slowly....
3. The HT has no other use other than feedback and storm. It cannot stand on its own as a unit.
4. Gateway units are much much weaker than basic units from other races. The HT/Collosus is something a protoss almost requires in order to engage an opponent. (marine marauder with stim and concussive absolutely rapes zealot stalker with charge and blink, zergling roach rapes zealot stalker even with sentries,Protoss has to rely on very good forcefields to even things up which leaves things up to chance and even then the protoss army can still get crushed.
Overall the protoss gateway units are a lot more expensive for the very little dps they provide relative to the other race counterparts.
If they remove the amulet upgrade at the very least, ghost emp should also require research time and cost 200 200. Also stalkers and zealots should be buffed vs zerg units becuase otherwise collosus is the will be the only tech option in many situations. This is bad because the prtoss tech path then becomes very very predictable.
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On March 02 2011 04:26 Barca wrote:
You say that the production of the previous unit is part of the production time of the current unit is ridiculous, but then you go on to say that High Templars only take 5 seconds to warp in, then the Warpgate is "occupied" for 45 seconds. Your first statement allows you to ignore the Warpgate cooldown for the rest of your argument, and that is something that cannot be ignored.
High Templars "occupy" your production buildings for 50 seconds. If I only have 1 gateway and I warp in a High Templar, I cannot warp in anything else during that span of 50 seconds. If a Terran player has 1 Barracks, he can only make 1 Ghost, so that Ghost will occupy that Barracks for 45 seconds.
You cannot ignore the cooldown of the previous unit. This is the case because Protoss production is backwards - unit first, cooldown after. The Warpgate mechanic forces you to wait for the first unit to finish before you get the second unit. So even though you say counting the previous units production cycle is ridiculous, it is accurate in determining the ability for a Protoss to produce units since the means at which Protoss get units is backwards.
Exactly. His argument would only hold water if that HT was the first and only unit built out of that warpgate. He ignores the fact that, after being used as a gateway, the warpgate has already gone through several warp gate cycles before it got to the HT, and the only difference that it made was at around 6 minutes where, if timed properly, a unit finished out of the gate, the gate xformed to warpgate, and another unit was made right there. That is the only point in time where the front-loaded mechanic of the warpgate makes a difference, not 5 minutes later in the game when HT are available with the amulet upgrade.
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What I dislike so much about this idea that they have. Is that they remove warp gate from the equation. As all the protoss gateway units, they are focused down on being able to be warped in for attacking with full strengh. However, with this is play. You make the HT just as a terran unit, instead of being in the barracks. He is in the base, waiting, for being able to storm.
Now, what would protoss be without warp gates? Terrible. Since you cannot reinforce in the way you need them to be due to their low number of units and they movement speed. That's one of the things that irritates me most, that they want to remove the warp gate ability from the templar.
Also, this patch will make all protoss players have 1-3 HT in their base and if the terran make a 2-3 maradeur dropp and the toss miss his storms, it's instant loss.
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On March 02 2011 04:29 Willes wrote:
Dont forget the fact that HT can morph to Archons right after storms, thats a huge advantage in fights
Don't worry, no one is forgetting it. The reason it isn't mentioned is because it doesn't matter in the slightest, and archons have absolutely no power over MMM
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Also what is forgotten in this post
apart from the obvious, you dont know where you want ht's so warping in everywhere has no point
Is that ghosts have emp, and cloak if they see a templar at 60/70 energy they WILL emp it. and it will have done nothing. while the ghost did do his job..
Also templar have a bigger role to fullfil then a ghost or a infestor.
they are essential versus most 200/200 armies who have anti air.
ghost are NOT at the same tier level as templar neither are infestor.
I do agree that the mineral storming or insta warpin storming is quite powerful.
But isnt mineral dropping with a drop ship the same if you are going MMM
and now the infestor buff does twice the ammount of damage. so this could be the new storm drops
On a different note.
What are you forgetting what the infestors and ghost have and templar dont...
CLOAKING. warping in templar at a proxy location is considered better then cloaking and walking into an enemy base, but dont forget... they still DO cloak.
What your mainly forgetting in the OP is that each race has its race traits.
so in that sense you cant even compare the spellcasters since they all have different roles to fullfil
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It's reasonable analysis, I do think it's weird to talk about time for "balance" though, I'm okay with different races being different though, obviously they have different abilities so it's hard to talk about the balance between them in a vacuum like this.
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I think amulet is not entirely necessary, but added to fix the weakness on HT without.
OP mentions comparable times for use of a major spell from ghost, infest and HT, but out of those three HT is the only one with one form of attack (ghost still has his standard no-energy-used attack plus snipe; infest have fg, np and infested terrans). Compact this with the fact that HT are probably one of the slowest moving units, have a huge investment in term of tech, and that storm needs to be researched before it can be used, and you start to realize that adding the amulet as a buff (not even free, at that) isn't such a raw deal on the part of terran or zerg opponents.
Some proponents could counter that HT can morph into archons, but everyone knows the story with archons...
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On March 02 2011 04:31 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:29 Willes wrote:
Dont forget the fact that HT can morph to Archons right after storms, thats a huge advantage in fights Don't worry, no one is forgetting it. The reason it isn't mentioned is because it doesn't matter in the slightest, and archons have absolutely no power over MMM
I just wanted to quote this, for emphasis. I agree 100%
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commenting as (not so skilled) protoss.
the numbers on that paper look pretty nice and fair. but as also stated while the other spelcasters spawn with their spell, storm needs to be researched.
the reason why im just very sad about the removal of the maulet is cuz its a very good defence against drops. i do think protoss is the most immobile race, and the warp in is one of the few mobilities we have to safe us from e.g. drops. now i do think its still possible to warp in zealots + a HT for a feedback to take care of the drop im just not entirely sure if its gna be as safe as the warp in storm.
i guess ill just have to wait and see if it's gna be bearable without the amulet :o) just again, take in note that the times you took are not that accurate because ghost and infestor can already emp and fungal, but the HT cant storm yet.
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I feel like I have to say that I have used HT in place of colossus since beta, and they are fragile and do not do the job as easily as the colossus does. I prefer them because I can get them faster (once all research is done) and their counter, the ghost, allows me some leeway in dealing with them, rather than FF and running when the vikings come. With amulet, PvT has the P player being able to choose 1 of 2 midgame tech paths. Without the amulet, the matchup is 1 dimensional and very predictable, with Terran having a clear advantage.
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On March 02 2011 04:14 dala wrote:
This is a necessary patch. Storming of mineral lines is way too powerful.
You would think that something more powerful would be used more in top level games...
We all know that storming mineral lines is a rare sight to see in the GSL.
Sure, it seems obvious(STORM THE WORKERS!!!), but the facts remain that it has rarely been used.
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Hungary11305 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:30 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:26 Barca wrote:
You say that the production of the previous unit is part of the production time of the current unit is ridiculous, but then you go on to say that High Templars only take 5 seconds to warp in, then the Warpgate is "occupied" for 45 seconds. Your first statement allows you to ignore the Warpgate cooldown for the rest of your argument, and that is something that cannot be ignored.
High Templars "occupy" your production buildings for 50 seconds. If I only have 1 gateway and I warp in a High Templar, I cannot warp in anything else during that span of 50 seconds. If a Terran player has 1 Barracks, he can only make 1 Ghost, so that Ghost will occupy that Barracks for 45 seconds.
You cannot ignore the cooldown of the previous unit. This is the case because Protoss production is backwards - unit first, cooldown after. The Warpgate mechanic forces you to wait for the first unit to finish before you get the second unit. So even though you say counting the previous units production cycle is ridiculous, it is accurate in determining the ability for a Protoss to produce units since the means at which Protoss get units is backwards. Exactly. His argument would only hold water if that HT was the first and only unit built out of that warpgate. He ignores the fact that, after being used as a gateway, the warpgate has already gone through several warp gate cycles before it got to the HT, and the only difference that it made was at around 6 minutes where, if timed properly, a unit finished out of the gate, the gate xformed to warpgate, and another unit was made right there. That is the only point in time where the front-loaded mechanic of the warpgate makes a difference, not 5 minutes later in the game when HT are available with the amulet upgrade.
I think the OPs argument is about the "reaction time" you have between "realizing you need spellcasters" and actually "having them available with 75 energy". So assuming your warpgate cooldown is anywhere between ready and just spent, you have between 5 and 50 seconds to react. That gives an average reaction time of 27.5 seconds.
With the 44.5 seconds to regenerate added to it, the "average templar reaction time" would be 72 seconds instead of ~50 for the other casters.
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Morphing into Archons also is an advantage of the caster ,compared to ghosts, emp dont need research, well you have the possibility to morph archons, without amulet the HT is far away from beeing weak or useless, Archons have uses, and you still can storm and feedback, if you talk about balance of units, u need to take more than 1 spell into discussion
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I don't think this change will break the match-up, though I do think as Terran begins to use ghosts more it's going to look bleak for a time. One key unit that prevents Protoss from being helpless against drops is the Phoenix. I think Phoenix play is actually quite strong vs. Terran especially mid/late-game after you're safe from the initial MM rush. Phoenixes have the mobility to deny drops, even after they land due to lift, and the added benefit of countering mass Vikings for your colossi. If/when Protoss switch to even more Colossus play against Terran, Phoenixes will seem the natural support/map control unit, and there is no easy counter on the side of the Terran for them except slow Thors & Turrets for base defense.
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EPT
