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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
It takes 45 sec to produce Ghost ready for EMP with energy upgrade.
It takes 50 sec to produce Infestor ready for FG with energy upgrade.
It takes 49,5 sec to produce HT ready for Storm without energy upgrade.
The difference between barracks and warpgates is like the difference between a while-loop and a do-while-loop; you are either making the decision of what unit to build before the build time executes, or after it. Your statement as it is now is border-line fabrication- with those values it should be phrased "to produce x ready with y upon making the decision to construct the unit in question." Of course this then disregards the idea of constant production being maintained by the protoss player, and the idea that protoss players always have warpgates off cooldown at every convenient moment is a fantasy constructed by players not familiar with the mechanics. Therefore, a more realistic change in your phrasing would be to just add 45 seconds to your high templar value.
I don't mean this post to be particularly polarized on the issue over whether amulet is balanced or not, but to try to clarify the evidence given.
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I have many negative thoughts of this possible Khaydarin Amulet removal and I'd like to point out how this will affect the game (regardless of matchups) IMO.
1-I have to be honest and agree that is kinda unfair to negate drops or expo attacks warping in five HT's and a couple Zealots. However you must consider that the HT is a staple unit against Terran Bio and Roach/Hydra play (when not using Colossi).
2-In my personal experience (im not a good player so take it with a grain of salt) the greatest use of HT in my games are for base defense and the initial attack in the enemy base (meeting their full army). I have lost many templars while moving through the map (since they are so slow) or by ghosts EMP (they become nearly useless) but I could get over that by the fact that I could warp new usable HT's.
3-I think the single, most strong argument against the nerf is:
Playing as Protoss, how you will defeat a Terran Bio-Ball with great Viking support?
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On March 02 2011 04:25 tehemperorer wrote:
Logic is flawed, OP. HT are instantly countered by ghosts. 1 EMP makes every HT lose shields and not be able to cast storm for 2 minutes and 13 seconds. If you were protoss and chose the HT tech path, you are shit out of luck. If Terran attacks in that 2 min 13 seconds, you will lose without the amulet. What's the solution? Go colossus. What does Terran do? Blindly build reactored vikings before you even have a robo facility. They can mass the cheap vikings before you even have 1 colossus, before range, and without scouting or scanning. It makes the PvT metagame so predictable for both sides, except the Terran have it better in viking/MMM because of mineral advantage and the ease of massing their units.
Sorry didn't read all the read just skimmed important parts of OP and first page but posts like this make me feel like people don't think blizzard can do simple analysis like this on the matchup. They're not retarded.
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United States7483 Posts
Here's the fact most players are disregarding: the main complaint is that you attack with bio, beat the toss force, and suddenly high templar warps in and crushes your bio force.
Well, protoss can't reinforce with colossus, or air units. They take too long to build. Terran can easily have a LOT of barracks churning out marines and marauders, and they build quickly and are cheap. If you trade armies equally, and are on equal bases, the terran wins without high templar, because you can't get enough colossus out in time to defend the constant stream of infantry. Terran Bio demolishes gateway units other than high templar. You have to use high templar. But now with amulet gone, you CAN'T use high templar. Suddenly, Protoss has to win every single engagement vs. a bio terran player by a large margin, because of how strong and easy it is to reinforce with bio.
Hell, I've seen terran players build only marines, all game long, vs high templar protoss and win.
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IMO HT aren't supposed to be Toss's answer to bio, HT are supposed to be Toss's answer to anything with energy via feedback. A bunch of stuff that gives toss trouble are things with energy (ravens, banshees, medivacs, i think that its also an option to feeback queens.)
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So wait, we should pretend it only takes 5 seconds to build a HT because the Protoss build times with warp gate are reversed?
Then we should add on the charge time to build up a storm and claim that constitutes a fair new build time for the spellcaster?
The OP is just making a trick argument: his numbers only make sense if you totally ignore the previous unit built before the HT was warped in. You can't claim it only takes 5 seconds to build an HT anymore than the previous unit only took 5 seconds.
Saying that cooldown of previous unit is part of production time of current unit is about as ridiculous as saying..
Unlike with the federal government borrowing money, just because the cost of something is back-ended doesn't mean it can be safely ignored 
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decent analysis, so as a balance, perhaps lower the warp gate cool down to maybe 40 or even 35 seconds? I also think now that amulet is going to be removed, they should remove storm research and give it to the HT automatically it seems a bit unfair they have to research an ability that makes them more useful than just feedback.
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On March 02 2011 09:11 Zaraphiston wrote:
I have many negative thoughts of this possible Khaydarin Amulet removal and I'd like to point out how this will affect the game (regardless of matchups) IMO.
1-I have to be honest and agree that is kinda unfair to negate drops or expo attacks warping in five HT's and a couple Zealots. However you must consider that the HT is a staple unit against Terran Bio and Roach/Hydra play (when not using Colossi).
2-In my personal experience (im not a good player so take it with a grain of salt) the greatest use of HT in my games are for base defense and the initial attack in the enemy base (meeting their full army). I have lost many templars while moving through the map (since they are so slow) or by ghosts EMP (they become nearly useless) but I could get over that by the fact that I could warp new usable HT's.
3-I think the single, most strong argument against the nerf is:
Playing as Protoss, how you will defeat a Terran Bio-Ball with great Viking support?
I think whats going to happen, is toss is going to have to counter vikings with their own air support such as phoenix and continue making colossi to counter the ground. Also how terran has to make a conscience decision to preemptively make ghosts now you're going to have to preemptively make HT to get ready for losing your colossi. I mean toss has observers, I don't see how a premeditated thought is impossible, if you can scout their viking numbers then start to preemptively make HT, once terran removes your colossi and begins to see the storms they will probably stop viking production, then tech switch back to colossi. TvP, PvT whatever you want to call it will become more of a back and forth but it's going to require just as much preemptive countering for a toss as it will for a terran. It's just like TvZ/ZvT, zerg makes broodlords, terran reacts with vikings and zerg blindly makes ultras before hand and hopes to win however we've seen this back fire in the GSL so it's not unfair for toss to now be in a similar boat as the other races.
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On March 02 2011 09:36 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 09:11 Zaraphiston wrote:
I have many negative thoughts of this possible Khaydarin Amulet removal and I'd like to point out how this will affect the game (regardless of matchups) IMO.
1-I have to be honest and agree that is kinda unfair to negate drops or expo attacks warping in five HT's and a couple Zealots. However you must consider that the HT is a staple unit against Terran Bio and Roach/Hydra play (when not using Colossi).
2-In my personal experience (im not a good player so take it with a grain of salt) the greatest use of HT in my games are for base defense and the initial attack in the enemy base (meeting their full army). I have lost many templars while moving through the map (since they are so slow) or by ghosts EMP (they become nearly useless) but I could get over that by the fact that I could warp new usable HT's.
3-I think the single, most strong argument against the nerf is:
Playing as Protoss, how you will defeat a Terran Bio-Ball with great Viking support? I think whats going to happen, is toss is going to have to counter vikings with their own air support such as phoenix and continue making colossi to counter the ground. Also how terran has to make a conscience decision to preemptively make ghosts now you're going to have to preemptively make HT to get ready for losing your colossi. I mean toss has observers, I don't see how a premeditated thought is impossible, if you can scout their viking numbers then start to preemptively make HT, once terran removes your colossi and begins to see the storms they will probably stop viking production, then tech switch back to colossi. TvP, PvT whatever you want to call it will become more of a back and forth but it's going to require just as much preemptive countering for a toss as it will for a terran. It's just like TvZ/ZvT, zerg makes broodlords, terran reacts with vikings and zerg blindly makes ultras before hand and hopes to win however we've seen this back fire in the GSL so it's not unfair for toss to now be in a similar boat as the other races.
Viking +marine alone counters any antiair a toss has/can field, as toss has the weakest aa in the game imo. Marines are cost effective against anything the toss can send that is aa, and vikings have longer range than anything the toss has thats aa.
To the OP, except HTs are the weakest spellcaster health-wise (edit: 80 vs 100 (ghost) and 90 (infestor) and have the lowest speed (1.875 vs 2.5 (infestor) or 2 (burrowed infesteor) and 2.25 ( ghost)
Ghost also has snipe and two snipes kills an HT/infestor at longer range( 10 for snipe vs 9 for storm/fungal growth) and that is cheaper than emp (50 mana vs 75 mana)
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I disagree with the idea of using unit-by-unit analysis to determine if the change is fair. I see no problem with one race having relatively powerful spellcasters paired with relatively weak conventional units. As is always said, there's so many variables that isolating a few, such as relative caster strengths, is a useless endeavor.
Let's see the statistics for PvT in the early game and late game, and then we'll know if the change is working. The reason blizzard changed this was because PvT has been notoriously protoss-favored in the late-game. They also increased stim research time, which will make an enormous difference in the Terran-favored early game. On first glance, I think these both sound like good solutions, but we'll need to see the numbers to know if they've had the intended effect.
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On March 02 2011 04:23 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:21 fadestep wrote:
Casters are balanced now? Great. Let's buff the shit out of Gateway units so they don't get roflstomped by Rax units. They don't at smaller numbers unless you dont' use sentries or suck with FF.
Try using only zealots/stalkers/sentries vs a terran. See how well you do.
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On March 02 2011 09:49 akomatic wrote:
I disagree with the idea of using unit-by-unit analysis to determine if the change is fair. I see no problem with one race having relatively powerful spellcasters paired with relatively weak conventional units. As is always said, there's so many variables that isolating a few, such as relative caster strengths, is a useless endeavor.
Let's see the statistics for PvT in the early game and late game, and then we'll know if the change is working. The reason blizzard changed this was because PvT has been notoriously protoss-favored in the late-game. They also increased stim research time, which will make an enormous difference in the Terran-favored early game. On first glance, I think these both sound like good solutions, but we'll need to see the numbers to know if they've had the intended effect.
sorry dawg but 30 secs on stim < khaydarin amulet gone FOREVER
unless you're pro that 30 seconds really isnt going to matter
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On March 02 2011 04:14 dala wrote:
This is a necessary patch. Storming of mineral lines is way too powerful.
I would argue that blue flame hellion harass is more effective, different mechanics or not i would take a blue flame hellion like unit over storming mineral lines any day
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The reasoning behind the stim being a non-issue is that you simply take the 30 extra seconds to get out another cycle of units and continue with the push as planned. Granted, you now have 30 extra seconds to pump colosi and you have one extra warpgate cycle, that changes nothing in reality.
Both sides simply add on another cycle of units. Stim pack is still just as strong.
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On March 02 2011 05:03 fraktoasters wrote:
stop acting like Protoss somehow will be more vulnerable to it.
Protoss are more vulnerable to it due to having a more immobile army that they need clumped up to be effective as all the protoss units support each other and are crap on their own. Stalkers are mobile but cost for cost cannot deal effectively with drops. Warp-in is what gives protoss any ground mobility.
Storming small numbers of marine marauders is incredibly cost inefficient. Its simply better than losing your nexus to 4 stimmed marauders.
Amulet doesnt make the game imbalanced, it only makes protoss more newbie friendly in the late game in the same way terran is newbie friendly in the early game. At the last blizzcon, they mentioned that Terrans actually had the upper hand in Diamond Korea (no masters then). Overall, I feel protoss are getting a raw deal given the fact that stim timings only rule out a few terran openers and still allow terran to dominate the early game.
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On March 02 2011 04:25 tehemperorer wrote:
Logic is flawed, OP. HT are instantly countered by ghosts. 1 EMP makes every HT lose shields and not be able to cast storm for 2 minutes and 13 seconds. If you were protoss and chose the HT tech path, you are shit out of luck. If Terran attacks in that 2 min 13 seconds, you will lose without the amulet. What's the solution? Go colossus. What does Terran do? Blindly build reactored vikings before you even have a robo facility. They can mass the cheap vikings before you even have 1 colossus, before range, and without scouting or scanning. It makes the PvT metagame so predictable for both sides, except the Terran have it better in viking/MMM because of mineral advantage and the ease of massing their units.
I totally agree with this i have no idea why terrans are having such a difficult time late game vs protoss, when the counters of the units that make a difference for P in PVT are so readily countered.
Also what the OP says doesnt reallly make much sense in my mind, sure it takes 5 seconds to produce an HT but then you have a cooldown and your building is doing nothing for 45 seconds or w/e it was, after it takes you 45 seconds to produce a ghost you produce another one right away, saying that it only takes 5 seconds to build an HT (wich is true) but not taking into account the wait peroid afterwards doesnt make much sense like you said its a reversed mechanic. When you calculate the peroid of time for a storm ready ht vs a emp ready ghost and a fungal ready infestor and dont take into account the warp peroid cooldown it leaves the math flawed in my opinion as over time you will have several more emp ready ghosts then storm ready ht's not including the 4.9 second difference in your calculations.
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On March 02 2011 09:21 OriginalBeast wrote:
IMO HT aren't supposed to be Toss's answer to bio, HT are supposed to be Toss's answer to anything with energy via feedback. A bunch of stuff that gives toss trouble are things with energy (ravens, banshees, medivacs, i think that its also an option to feeback queens.)
They may as well take storm out as well then.
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I would like to actually see people doing ht drops to feedback queens. That could actually screw up zerg production quite a bit. Probably not worth the effort though...
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I'm sorry OP, but I registered specifically to pass my opinion that this "analysis" is rubbish.
Talking about build times/starting energy/warp and build mechanics independant of roughly one gazillion confounding factors is completely pointless.
The only specific that you mentioned that I want to dwell on is "is removing amulet going to balance casters".
How on earth you arrived on the conclusion "definitely yes" looking only at 3 different units is baffling. Is this a game where economic/tech mechanics are exactly the same for all three races? Do the three units perform exactly the same functions for each race? This is not a TvTvT where one marine has a bigger "gun" (snicker).
Here's my conclusion, in bold, which has about as much substantiated analysis as your OP. You are a terran player. Nuff said.
Do many people get banned for their first posts?
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Since when is production time 5 secs for gateway units. Take this example: i wanna build 100 ht outta 5 gateways, thats 20 per gateway. so it should only take me 100 secs (1min 40secs) to warp in a maxed ht army right???? your analysis is very flawed.
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EPT
