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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 02 2011 04:39 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:34 Aesop wrote:On March 02 2011 04:30 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:26 Barca wrote:
You say that the production of the previous unit is part of the production time of the current unit is ridiculous, but then you go on to say that High Templars only take 5 seconds to warp in, then the Warpgate is "occupied" for 45 seconds. Your first statement allows you to ignore the Warpgate cooldown for the rest of your argument, and that is something that cannot be ignored.
High Templars "occupy" your production buildings for 50 seconds. If I only have 1 gateway and I warp in a High Templar, I cannot warp in anything else during that span of 50 seconds. If a Terran player has 1 Barracks, he can only make 1 Ghost, so that Ghost will occupy that Barracks for 45 seconds.
You cannot ignore the cooldown of the previous unit. This is the case because Protoss production is backwards - unit first, cooldown after. The Warpgate mechanic forces you to wait for the first unit to finish before you get the second unit. So even though you say counting the previous units production cycle is ridiculous, it is accurate in determining the ability for a Protoss to produce units since the means at which Protoss get units is backwards. Exactly. His argument would only hold water if that HT was the first and only unit built out of that warpgate. He ignores the fact that, after being used as a gateway, the warpgate has already gone through several warp gate cycles before it got to the HT, and the only difference that it made was at around 6 minutes where, if timed properly, a unit finished out of the gate, the gate xformed to warpgate, and another unit was made right there. That is the only point in time where the front-loaded mechanic of the warpgate makes a difference, not 5 minutes later in the game when HT are available with the amulet upgrade. I think the OPs argument is about the "reaction time" you have between "realizing you need spellcasters" and actually "having them available with 75 energy". So assuming your warpgate cooldown is anywhere between ready and just spent, you have between 5 and 50 seconds to react. That gives an average reaction time of 27.5 seconds. With the 44.5 seconds to regenerate added to it, the "average templar reaction time" would be 72 seconds instead of ~50 for the other casters. Please forgive me, I don't understand your direction... 72 seconds for HT compared to ~50 for the others looks like a disadvantage to me, and when does a person "realize they need spellcasters" as opposed to just build them?
All... the... fucking... time... are you kidding? HT you build as you need. Ghosts, you produce too many and you've fucked up because you have less marauders and spent 150/150 on a unit that is essentially USELESS (as after the EMP's go off, ghosts are a much less than ideal fighting unit, unlike HT whereas you can storm again, and again, and again with the more you have), don't build enough and you're going to get rolled. Same shit with infestors. Too many and you're going to get rolled.
With ghosts, let's say you do build the optimal amount, and they get feedbacked... FUCK go back to your barracks and cancel the marauders building and try to get out a ghost.
When you're toss? Oh, lemme chrono boost mah warpgates and insta-warp in some HT right where I need them on the battlefield, while warping my existing HT into archons. I'd be fine with amulet if HT weren't able to be warped in and had to be produced from the gateway instead.
Here's the main flaw with the production time thing you guys keep speaking of. The ONLY situation where it's equal is when you realize you need an HT, and you JUST warped in something else. In all other situations, the time at which you can acquire your HT is significantly less. As with my example above, if I need ghosts in a situation and don't have them, I have to go to my rax, see a marauder half built, CANCEL it, then start building the ghost from scratch, causing massive inefficiencies from my barracks production. With an HT, if you had warped in a stalker, and the cooldown is half done, you only half to wait half a cooldown for the stalker, and zero inefficiency is caused. You get the HT out much quicker than I can get out my ghost. Considering if you really need the HT, you can chronoboost it to get it out even faster by reducing the 50% remaining cooldown, then you can warp the HT in anywhere you want, you're getting that HT INSANELY fast. If I don't want to have inefficiency as Terran, I have to let my marauder finish, then build the ghost after, delaying it even further, valuable time I don't have.
On March 03 2011 04:55 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 04:45 Reptilia wrote:
i dont understund.
Do protoss users think the amulet was balanced (pre 1.3)?
i mean how op is having a huge bio and beating ur huge army of gateway+collossus and the protoss just warps a couple ht and instantly destroy your army even tho u won a huge army battle.
Thats nonsense
However, maybe an upgrade that gives 13 extra starting energy would be good If I have two tier 3 tech paths, why are you still on 1.5? That's nonsense... Would that work in War3? Switch to mech and stop complaining about how your tier 1.5 melts to a more expensive and time consuming tier 3 tech
You can always tell extremely mediocre Protoss players when they give this response. Let's analyze this.
1. You're still on gateway units as the bulk of your army, you are supported by a much smaller number of tier 3 units. Also, you have your HT come out of your gateways, same with DT, meaning you don't have to invest in multiple additional production facilities. There is not a "timing window" where T can drop down 5 factories and transition into a unit composition where you have zero upgrades. However, all your ground units benefit from ground upgrades. Make it so Colossus don't benefit from ground/armor upgrades and we'll talk again, ok?
2. Who even uses "tier 1.5" as Terran? Do vikings and medivacs not come from the starport? Do we not build ghosts as well to counter HT? Lategame Terran unit composition typically consists of Marines, Marauders, Medivacs, Vikings, Ghosts. Many others like myself include the occasion Raven and Thor. Our banshees can't exactly go toe-to-toe with armies lategame for lack of upgrades as well, and the fact by then blink stalkers are out, feedback pwns banshees, and storm gets them when they clump.
3. Mech is fucking awful. IMMVP had been able to max out a pure siege tank hellion army, and got ROLLED no problem by protoss forces. Mech crumbles to a toss army. Not only that, a void ray or carrier transition would have CRIPPLED him, since he had no antiair. At least in BW if they went carriers you could easily roll out tons of Goliaths. You can't do this in SC2, unless you're advising Thors vs Voids/Carriers. Not to mention T LACKS SPIDER MINES to hinder protoss mobility like there existed in BW. Also, not to mention that Siege tanks are awful vs Chargelots, doing 35 dmg. BW tanks did 75 dmg to broodwar shields. How many tank shots does it take to kill a zealot? 5? Craziness.
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On March 03 2011 06:39 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:39 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:34 Aesop wrote:On March 02 2011 04:30 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:26 Barca wrote:
You say that the production of the previous unit is part of the production time of the current unit is ridiculous, but then you go on to say that High Templars only take 5 seconds to warp in, then the Warpgate is "occupied" for 45 seconds. Your first statement allows you to ignore the Warpgate cooldown for the rest of your argument, and that is something that cannot be ignored.
High Templars "occupy" your production buildings for 50 seconds. If I only have 1 gateway and I warp in a High Templar, I cannot warp in anything else during that span of 50 seconds. If a Terran player has 1 Barracks, he can only make 1 Ghost, so that Ghost will occupy that Barracks for 45 seconds.
You cannot ignore the cooldown of the previous unit. This is the case because Protoss production is backwards - unit first, cooldown after. The Warpgate mechanic forces you to wait for the first unit to finish before you get the second unit. So even though you say counting the previous units production cycle is ridiculous, it is accurate in determining the ability for a Protoss to produce units since the means at which Protoss get units is backwards. Exactly. His argument would only hold water if that HT was the first and only unit built out of that warpgate. He ignores the fact that, after being used as a gateway, the warpgate has already gone through several warp gate cycles before it got to the HT, and the only difference that it made was at around 6 minutes where, if timed properly, a unit finished out of the gate, the gate xformed to warpgate, and another unit was made right there. That is the only point in time where the front-loaded mechanic of the warpgate makes a difference, not 5 minutes later in the game when HT are available with the amulet upgrade. I think the OPs argument is about the "reaction time" you have between "realizing you need spellcasters" and actually "having them available with 75 energy". So assuming your warpgate cooldown is anywhere between ready and just spent, you have between 5 and 50 seconds to react. That gives an average reaction time of 27.5 seconds. With the 44.5 seconds to regenerate added to it, the "average templar reaction time" would be 72 seconds instead of ~50 for the other casters. Please forgive me, I don't understand your direction... 72 seconds for HT compared to ~50 for the others looks like a disadvantage to me, and when does a person "realize they need spellcasters" as opposed to just build them? All... the... fucking... time... are you kidding? HT you build as you need. Ghosts, you produce too many and you've fucked up because you have less marauders and spent 150/150 on a unit that is essentially USELESS (as after the EMP's go off, ghosts are a much less than ideal fighting unit, unlike HT whereas you can storm again, and again, and again with the more you have), don't build enough and you're going to get rolled. Same shit with infestors. Too many and you're going to get rolled. With ghosts, let's say you do build the optimal amount, and they get feedbacked... FUCK go back to your barracks and cancel the marauders building and try to get out a ghost. When you're toss? Oh, lemme chrono boost mah warpgates and insta-warp in some HT right where I need them on the battlefield, while warping my existing HT into archons. I'd be fine with amulet if HT weren't able to be warped in and had to be produced from the gateway instead. Here's the main flaw with the production time thing you guys keep speaking of. The ONLY situation where it's equal is when you realize you need an HT, and you JUST warped in something else. In all other situations, the time at which you can acquire your HT is significantly less. As with my example above, if I need ghosts in a situation and don't have them, I have to go to my rax, see a marauder half built, CANCEL it, then start building the ghost from scratch, causing massive inefficiencies from my barracks production. With an HT, if you had warped in a stalker, and the cooldown is half done, you only half to wait half a cooldown for the stalker, and zero inefficiency is caused. You get the HT out much quicker than I can get out my ghost. Considering if you really need the HT, you can chronoboost it to get it out even faster by reducing the 50% remaining cooldown, then you can warp the HT in anywhere you want, you're getting that HT INSANELY fast. If I don't want to have inefficiency as Terran, I have to let my marauder finish, then build the ghost after, delaying it even further, valuable time I don't have.
That whole (flawled) argument can be summed as follows:
[Insert random fact about a protoss mechanic taken out of context making it look imbalanced, proceed to bash on it]
Do you want me to list some terran aspects that taken out of context could be seen as OP as well? Or zerg? Stop with this nonsense. Never, analyzing a mechanic by itself and comparing to the correspondent of the other classes ever provide a good way to analyze imbalance. Each race has a set of mechanics that interact with each other, and none can be set apart and analyzed like that. They have to be analyzed from the race's point of view, not the mechanics' point of view.
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On March 03 2011 04:01 Sek-Kuar wrote:
This thread is about strong and undeniable evidence that removing KA is good thing that is going to balance casters and at least in future make balancing game easier around fair mechanics. It wasnt fair before, and now when every race will have to think ~50+ sec before using casters, it will be better.
That doesnt mean that it is going to directly balance game, but it is definitelly going to make it better and easier to balance in future.
Now please cut everything not related to purpose of this thread! (Or make your own "Theorycrafting about Khaydarin Amulet")
I'm assuming you would be in favor of High Templar only requiring Twilight Council and making Storm not take research? If we are trying to balance the casters for ease of later game balancing anyway.
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On March 03 2011 06:43 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 06:39 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 02 2011 04:39 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:34 Aesop wrote:On March 02 2011 04:30 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:26 Barca wrote:
You say that the production of the previous unit is part of the production time of the current unit is ridiculous, but then you go on to say that High Templars only take 5 seconds to warp in, then the Warpgate is "occupied" for 45 seconds. Your first statement allows you to ignore the Warpgate cooldown for the rest of your argument, and that is something that cannot be ignored.
High Templars "occupy" your production buildings for 50 seconds. If I only have 1 gateway and I warp in a High Templar, I cannot warp in anything else during that span of 50 seconds. If a Terran player has 1 Barracks, he can only make 1 Ghost, so that Ghost will occupy that Barracks for 45 seconds.
You cannot ignore the cooldown of the previous unit. This is the case because Protoss production is backwards - unit first, cooldown after. The Warpgate mechanic forces you to wait for the first unit to finish before you get the second unit. So even though you say counting the previous units production cycle is ridiculous, it is accurate in determining the ability for a Protoss to produce units since the means at which Protoss get units is backwards. Exactly. His argument would only hold water if that HT was the first and only unit built out of that warpgate. He ignores the fact that, after being used as a gateway, the warpgate has already gone through several warp gate cycles before it got to the HT, and the only difference that it made was at around 6 minutes where, if timed properly, a unit finished out of the gate, the gate xformed to warpgate, and another unit was made right there. That is the only point in time where the front-loaded mechanic of the warpgate makes a difference, not 5 minutes later in the game when HT are available with the amulet upgrade. I think the OPs argument is about the "reaction time" you have between "realizing you need spellcasters" and actually "having them available with 75 energy". So assuming your warpgate cooldown is anywhere between ready and just spent, you have between 5 and 50 seconds to react. That gives an average reaction time of 27.5 seconds. With the 44.5 seconds to regenerate added to it, the "average templar reaction time" would be 72 seconds instead of ~50 for the other casters. Please forgive me, I don't understand your direction... 72 seconds for HT compared to ~50 for the others looks like a disadvantage to me, and when does a person "realize they need spellcasters" as opposed to just build them? All... the... fucking... time... are you kidding? HT you build as you need. Ghosts, you produce too many and you've fucked up because you have less marauders and spent 150/150 on a unit that is essentially USELESS (as after the EMP's go off, ghosts are a much less than ideal fighting unit, unlike HT whereas you can storm again, and again, and again with the more you have), don't build enough and you're going to get rolled. Same shit with infestors. Too many and you're going to get rolled. With ghosts, let's say you do build the optimal amount, and they get feedbacked... FUCK go back to your barracks and cancel the marauders building and try to get out a ghost. When you're toss? Oh, lemme chrono boost mah warpgates and insta-warp in some HT right where I need them on the battlefield, while warping my existing HT into archons. I'd be fine with amulet if HT weren't able to be warped in and had to be produced from the gateway instead. Here's the main flaw with the production time thing you guys keep speaking of. The ONLY situation where it's equal is when you realize you need an HT, and you JUST warped in something else. In all other situations, the time at which you can acquire your HT is significantly less. As with my example above, if I need ghosts in a situation and don't have them, I have to go to my rax, see a marauder half built, CANCEL it, then start building the ghost from scratch, causing massive inefficiencies from my barracks production. With an HT, if you had warped in a stalker, and the cooldown is half done, you only half to wait half a cooldown for the stalker, and zero inefficiency is caused. You get the HT out much quicker than I can get out my ghost. Considering if you really need the HT, you can chronoboost it to get it out even faster by reducing the 50% remaining cooldown, then you can warp the HT in anywhere you want, you're getting that HT INSANELY fast. If I don't want to have inefficiency as Terran, I have to let my marauder finish, then build the ghost after, delaying it even further, valuable time I don't have. That whole (flawled) argument can be summed as follows: [Insert random fact about a protoss mechanic taken out of context making it look imbalanced] Do you want me to list some terran aspects that taken out of context could be seen as OP as well? Or zerg? Stop with this nonsense. Never, analyzing a mechanic by itself and comparing to the correspondent of the other classes ever provide a good way to analyze imbalance. Each race has a set of mechanics that interact with each other, and none can be set apart and analyzed like that. They have to be analyzed from the race's point of view, not the mechanics' point of view.
It was nothing more than a counterargument to his remark about how Protoss players have to wait just as long to get their HT, which is incorrect. I never stated anything about mechanics needing to be similar, so your reasoning for bringing it up is slightly baffling to me.
And no, it's not necessarily a flawed argument, as we've clearly seen that "different" is the fundamental cause for imbalance existing. The entire point of the discussion is to try to make the point that one mechanic is noticeably more advantageous to another. Otherwise, there's no reason to even discuss it in the first place.
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On March 03 2011 06:43 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 06:39 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 02 2011 04:39 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:34 Aesop wrote:On March 02 2011 04:30 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:26 Barca wrote:
You say that the production of the previous unit is part of the production time of the current unit is ridiculous, but then you go on to say that High Templars only take 5 seconds to warp in, then the Warpgate is "occupied" for 45 seconds. Your first statement allows you to ignore the Warpgate cooldown for the rest of your argument, and that is something that cannot be ignored.
High Templars "occupy" your production buildings for 50 seconds. If I only have 1 gateway and I warp in a High Templar, I cannot warp in anything else during that span of 50 seconds. If a Terran player has 1 Barracks, he can only make 1 Ghost, so that Ghost will occupy that Barracks for 45 seconds.
You cannot ignore the cooldown of the previous unit. This is the case because Protoss production is backwards - unit first, cooldown after. The Warpgate mechanic forces you to wait for the first unit to finish before you get the second unit. So even though you say counting the previous units production cycle is ridiculous, it is accurate in determining the ability for a Protoss to produce units since the means at which Protoss get units is backwards. Exactly. His argument would only hold water if that HT was the first and only unit built out of that warpgate. He ignores the fact that, after being used as a gateway, the warpgate has already gone through several warp gate cycles before it got to the HT, and the only difference that it made was at around 6 minutes where, if timed properly, a unit finished out of the gate, the gate xformed to warpgate, and another unit was made right there. That is the only point in time where the front-loaded mechanic of the warpgate makes a difference, not 5 minutes later in the game when HT are available with the amulet upgrade. I think the OPs argument is about the "reaction time" you have between "realizing you need spellcasters" and actually "having them available with 75 energy". So assuming your warpgate cooldown is anywhere between ready and just spent, you have between 5 and 50 seconds to react. That gives an average reaction time of 27.5 seconds. With the 44.5 seconds to regenerate added to it, the "average templar reaction time" would be 72 seconds instead of ~50 for the other casters. Please forgive me, I don't understand your direction... 72 seconds for HT compared to ~50 for the others looks like a disadvantage to me, and when does a person "realize they need spellcasters" as opposed to just build them? All... the... fucking... time... are you kidding? HT you build as you need. Ghosts, you produce too many and you've fucked up because you have less marauders and spent 150/150 on a unit that is essentially USELESS (as after the EMP's go off, ghosts are a much less than ideal fighting unit, unlike HT whereas you can storm again, and again, and again with the more you have), don't build enough and you're going to get rolled. Same shit with infestors. Too many and you're going to get rolled. With ghosts, let's say you do build the optimal amount, and they get feedbacked... FUCK go back to your barracks and cancel the marauders building and try to get out a ghost. When you're toss? Oh, lemme chrono boost mah warpgates and insta-warp in some HT right where I need them on the battlefield, while warping my existing HT into archons. I'd be fine with amulet if HT weren't able to be warped in and had to be produced from the gateway instead. Here's the main flaw with the production time thing you guys keep speaking of. The ONLY situation where it's equal is when you realize you need an HT, and you JUST warped in something else. In all other situations, the time at which you can acquire your HT is significantly less. As with my example above, if I need ghosts in a situation and don't have them, I have to go to my rax, see a marauder half built, CANCEL it, then start building the ghost from scratch, causing massive inefficiencies from my barracks production. With an HT, if you had warped in a stalker, and the cooldown is half done, you only half to wait half a cooldown for the stalker, and zero inefficiency is caused. You get the HT out much quicker than I can get out my ghost. Considering if you really need the HT, you can chronoboost it to get it out even faster by reducing the 50% remaining cooldown, then you can warp the HT in anywhere you want, you're getting that HT INSANELY fast. If I don't want to have inefficiency as Terran, I have to let my marauder finish, then build the ghost after, delaying it even further, valuable time I don't have. That whole (flawled) argument can be summed as follows: [Insert random fact about a protoss mechanic taken out of context making it look imbalanced] Do you want me to list some terran aspects that taken out of context could be seen as OP as well? Or zerg? Stop with this nonsense. Never, analyzing a mechanic by itself and comparing to the correspondent of the other classes ever provide a good way to analyze imbalance. Each race has a set of mechanics that interact with each other, and none can be set apart and analyzed like that. They have to be analyzed from the race's point of view, not the mechanics' point of view.
And that is why the OP is wrong... It fails to account for so many things that its conclusion is too simple in relation to the scope of the actual issue.
Plus that post you quoted is a really good example of why not to compare the two build times in relation to Khaydarin Amulet for the simple reason that, even though it's stated before, ghosts appear on the battlefield earlier, for less resources, and have more uses beyond countering HT. Anyone know of an early push that involves ghosts in PvT? I do. What about that early HT rush? Never heard of it.
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On March 03 2011 06:49 STenSatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 04:01 Sek-Kuar wrote:
This thread is about strong and undeniable evidence that removing KA is good thing that is going to balance casters and at least in future make balancing game easier around fair mechanics. It wasnt fair before, and now when every race will have to think ~50+ sec before using casters, it will be better.
That doesnt mean that it is going to directly balance game, but it is definitelly going to make it better and easier to balance in future.
Now please cut everything not related to purpose of this thread! (Or make your own "Theorycrafting about Khaydarin Amulet") I'm assuming you would be in favor of High Templar only requiring Twilight Council and making Storm not take research? If we are trying to balance the casters for ease of later game balancing anyway.
Of course not. That would be outrageous.
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On March 03 2011 06:52 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 06:49 STenSatsu wrote:On March 03 2011 04:01 Sek-Kuar wrote:
This thread is about strong and undeniable evidence that removing KA is good thing that is going to balance casters and at least in future make balancing game easier around fair mechanics. It wasnt fair before, and now when every race will have to think ~50+ sec before using casters, it will be better.
That doesnt mean that it is going to directly balance game, but it is definitelly going to make it better and easier to balance in future.
Now please cut everything not related to purpose of this thread! (Or make your own "Theorycrafting about Khaydarin Amulet") I'm assuming you would be in favor of High Templar only requiring Twilight Council and making Storm not take research? If we are trying to balance the casters for ease of later game balancing anyway. Of course not. That would be outrageous.
Why? That's around the time the ghost comes out (very generally). Wouldn't we need that time to build energy now without the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade to effectively counter ghosts?
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On March 03 2011 06:54 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 06:52 TimeSpiral wrote:On March 03 2011 06:49 STenSatsu wrote:On March 03 2011 04:01 Sek-Kuar wrote:
This thread is about strong and undeniable evidence that removing KA is good thing that is going to balance casters and at least in future make balancing game easier around fair mechanics. It wasnt fair before, and now when every race will have to think ~50+ sec before using casters, it will be better.
That doesnt mean that it is going to directly balance game, but it is definitelly going to make it better and easier to balance in future.
Now please cut everything not related to purpose of this thread! (Or make your own "Theorycrafting about Khaydarin Amulet") I'm assuming you would be in favor of High Templar only requiring Twilight Council and making Storm not take research? If we are trying to balance the casters for ease of later game balancing anyway. Of course not. That would be outrageous. Why? That's around the time the ghost comes out (very generally). Wouldn't we need that time to build energy now without the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade to effectively counter ghosts?
Well, the Ghost is the technical counter to the HT. It's not really one of those things that go both ways, although feedback is good versus Ghosts.
By taking away the Amulet Protoss players now have to wait 44(+5) seconds after ordering an HT before they can storm instead of 5. Even with the energy upgrade both Terran and Zerg have to wait at least 40 seconds before they can cast EMP or Fungal respectively. HSM and Neural are much, much worse.
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On March 03 2011 06:52 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 06:43 Apolo wrote:On March 03 2011 06:39 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 02 2011 04:39 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:34 Aesop wrote:On March 02 2011 04:30 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:26 Barca wrote:
You say that the production of the previous unit is part of the production time of the current unit is ridiculous, but then you go on to say that High Templars only take 5 seconds to warp in, then the Warpgate is "occupied" for 45 seconds. Your first statement allows you to ignore the Warpgate cooldown for the rest of your argument, and that is something that cannot be ignored.
High Templars "occupy" your production buildings for 50 seconds. If I only have 1 gateway and I warp in a High Templar, I cannot warp in anything else during that span of 50 seconds. If a Terran player has 1 Barracks, he can only make 1 Ghost, so that Ghost will occupy that Barracks for 45 seconds.
You cannot ignore the cooldown of the previous unit. This is the case because Protoss production is backwards - unit first, cooldown after. The Warpgate mechanic forces you to wait for the first unit to finish before you get the second unit. So even though you say counting the previous units production cycle is ridiculous, it is accurate in determining the ability for a Protoss to produce units since the means at which Protoss get units is backwards. Exactly. His argument would only hold water if that HT was the first and only unit built out of that warpgate. He ignores the fact that, after being used as a gateway, the warpgate has already gone through several warp gate cycles before it got to the HT, and the only difference that it made was at around 6 minutes where, if timed properly, a unit finished out of the gate, the gate xformed to warpgate, and another unit was made right there. That is the only point in time where the front-loaded mechanic of the warpgate makes a difference, not 5 minutes later in the game when HT are available with the amulet upgrade. I think the OPs argument is about the "reaction time" you have between "realizing you need spellcasters" and actually "having them available with 75 energy". So assuming your warpgate cooldown is anywhere between ready and just spent, you have between 5 and 50 seconds to react. That gives an average reaction time of 27.5 seconds. With the 44.5 seconds to regenerate added to it, the "average templar reaction time" would be 72 seconds instead of ~50 for the other casters. Please forgive me, I don't understand your direction... 72 seconds for HT compared to ~50 for the others looks like a disadvantage to me, and when does a person "realize they need spellcasters" as opposed to just build them? All... the... fucking... time... are you kidding? HT you build as you need. Ghosts, you produce too many and you've fucked up because you have less marauders and spent 150/150 on a unit that is essentially USELESS (as after the EMP's go off, ghosts are a much less than ideal fighting unit, unlike HT whereas you can storm again, and again, and again with the more you have), don't build enough and you're going to get rolled. Same shit with infestors. Too many and you're going to get rolled. With ghosts, let's say you do build the optimal amount, and they get feedbacked... FUCK go back to your barracks and cancel the marauders building and try to get out a ghost. When you're toss? Oh, lemme chrono boost mah warpgates and insta-warp in some HT right where I need them on the battlefield, while warping my existing HT into archons. I'd be fine with amulet if HT weren't able to be warped in and had to be produced from the gateway instead. Here's the main flaw with the production time thing you guys keep speaking of. The ONLY situation where it's equal is when you realize you need an HT, and you JUST warped in something else. In all other situations, the time at which you can acquire your HT is significantly less. As with my example above, if I need ghosts in a situation and don't have them, I have to go to my rax, see a marauder half built, CANCEL it, then start building the ghost from scratch, causing massive inefficiencies from my barracks production. With an HT, if you had warped in a stalker, and the cooldown is half done, you only half to wait half a cooldown for the stalker, and zero inefficiency is caused. You get the HT out much quicker than I can get out my ghost. Considering if you really need the HT, you can chronoboost it to get it out even faster by reducing the 50% remaining cooldown, then you can warp the HT in anywhere you want, you're getting that HT INSANELY fast. If I don't want to have inefficiency as Terran, I have to let my marauder finish, then build the ghost after, delaying it even further, valuable time I don't have. That whole (flawled) argument can be summed as follows: [Insert random fact about a protoss mechanic taken out of context making it look imbalanced] Do you want me to list some terran aspects that taken out of context could be seen as OP as well? Or zerg? Stop with this nonsense. Never, analyzing a mechanic by itself and comparing to the correspondent of the other classes ever provide a good way to analyze imbalance. Each race has a set of mechanics that interact with each other, and none can be set apart and analyzed like that. They have to be analyzed from the race's point of view, not the mechanics' point of view. And that is why the OP is wrong... It fails to account for so many things that its conclusion is too simple in relation to the scope of the actual issue. Plus that post you quoted is a really good example of why not to compare the two build times in relation to Khaydarin Amulet for the simple reason that, even though it's stated before, ghosts appear on the battlefield earlier, for less resources, and have more uses beyond countering HT. Anyone know of an early push that involves ghosts in PvT? I do. What about that early HT rush? Never heard of it.
Are you really comparing the use of a unit in what is essentially an all-in timing attack to a unit's general role and usage in a game? That isn't even relevant. Because the ability to use that unit in a timing window is not related to how it's used in a standard game. When you use the ghost in a standard game, it's role is not affected whatsoever by the fact you could have used it earlier in a timing rush. Just as you can Thor rush, but you're not going to take into account the fact you can Thor rush into a discussion talking about how useful a Thor is mid-late game. You can say it would be too powerful in a rush if we buffed Thors because they aren't used lategame, but that's a completely new topic.
You're also crazy, ghosts don't appear on the battlefield before HT. Once again, while they can doesn't mean they ever do. You don't tech to ghosts unless you're going for a near all-in timing attack, or you think they're going HT's.
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On March 03 2011 06:39 FabledIntegral wrote:
Mech is fucking awful.
Jinro beat MC, a GSL champion, very convincingly with Mech. I would hesitate to call it awful. I would however say it requires much more individual unit control to use effectively, the same way immortals take a lot more control to use effectively than colossi do.
I think it is strange to nerf High Templar at the moment - I would have preferred a colossi nerf if protoss were to be nerfed. This is very much limiting protoss play.
I did however read an interesting suggestion (I think from the IRC channel) - that you could only warp in units near pylons that were less than 26 units from a nexus (13 units is siege tank range). You could still build buildings so cannon and proxy rushes would still work, but 4gate and high templar warpins would require a warp prism, making protoss consider prism use a little more. Obviously the 26 unit range is arbitrary and may need increasing (don't think it should be decreased) but I liked the idea of it. Certainly allows more variety than the amulet nerf whilst still nerfing the templar.
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On March 03 2011 07:03 Robellicose wrote:Jinro beat MC, a GSL champion, very convincingly with Mech. I would hesitate to call it awful. I would however say it requires much more individual unit control to use effectively, the same way immortals take a lot more control to use effectively than colossi do. I think it is strange to nerf High Templar at the moment - I would have preferred a colossi nerf if protoss were to be nerfed. This is very much limiting protoss play. I did however read an interesting suggestion (I think from the IRC channel) - that you could only warp in units near pylons that were less than 26 units from a nexus (13 units is siege tank range). You could still build buildings so cannon and proxy rushes would still work, but 4gate and high templar warpins would require a warp prism, making protoss consider prism use a little more. Obviously the 26 unit range is arbitrary and may need increasing (don't think it should be decreased) but I liked the idea of it. Certainly allows more variety than the amulet nerf whilst still nerfing the templar.
Jinro did not transition into mech. He started with mech. There is a very clear, clear difference in this regard. He did not waste a ton of resources into barracks production facilities or bio upgrades. He did not have an open timing window where he built a ton of factories and let the protoss stomp them. He did it on very particular maps as well (I assure you he would not have tried it on Metalopolis). He tried it close positions on LT, and on the very choke filled Scrap Station. Neither scenario went lategame. The situations are not comparable.
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This fails to recognize that by removing the amulet, HT have a 50s vulnerable time in which they can be killed before they can ever cast storm that other casters with their energy upgrade do not have. Additionally, ghosts come off rax tech, infesters come off lair tech, while HT don't come until all the way down at templar tech. It takes a lot more tech to get storm + amulet Templar than it does to get an EMP or Fungal.
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On March 03 2011 07:05 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 07:03 Robellicose wrote:On March 03 2011 06:39 FabledIntegral wrote:
Mech is fucking awful.
Jinro beat MC, a GSL champion, very convincingly with Mech. I would hesitate to call it awful. I would however say it requires much more individual unit control to use effectively, the same way immortals take a lot more control to use effectively than colossi do. I think it is strange to nerf High Templar at the moment - I would have preferred a colossi nerf if protoss were to be nerfed. This is very much limiting protoss play. I did however read an interesting suggestion (I think from the IRC channel) - that you could only warp in units near pylons that were less than 26 units from a nexus (13 units is siege tank range). You could still build buildings so cannon and proxy rushes would still work, but 4gate and high templar warpins would require a warp prism, making protoss consider prism use a little more. Obviously the 26 unit range is arbitrary and may need increasing (don't think it should be decreased) but I liked the idea of it. Certainly allows more variety than the amulet nerf whilst still nerfing the templar. Jinro did not transition into mech. He started with mech. There is a very clear, clear difference in this regard. He did not waste a ton of resources into barracks production facilities or bio upgrades. He did not have an open timing window where he built a ton of factories and let the protoss stomp them. He did it on very particular maps as well (I assure you he would not have tried it on Metalopolis). He tried it close positions on LT, and on the very choke filled Scrap Station. Neither scenario went lategame. The situations are not comparable.
I absolutely love Jinro's play, he is amazing, but I will say that MC failed to react properly to his mech plays on both LT and ST.
Similarly, he PWND the sh!t out of IdrA with mech on Terminus RE but you know what? IdrA did not even fight him! He didn't even engage. Both Protoss and Zerg have absolutely reasonable and doable responses to Mech.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 03 2011 06:37 TimeSpiral wrote:
Protoss telling Terran to go mech: my thoughts
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I hear it all the time, that Terran cannot stay on Barracks units all game long (even when there are medivacs, ravens, and banshees on the field), yet Pros have a tendency to stay on Rax and play a really harassed-based Tempo game.
Many Protoss players then ridicule the Terran players and tell them choose "Mech builds" while peppering in insults about it being harder and that's why we don't do it, or there is less a+clicking, or some other "wat umad" comment. And you wonder why Terran players are Protoss-bitter? Lol.
Mech is not synergistic with Barracks units to the same degree Robo tech is synergistic with Gateway tech. In my opinion, Gateway/Templar/Robo is one of the most symbiotic tech-combinations you can have.
Protoss rarely "goes Robo" but more generally goes "Gateway + Robo" then in later stages of the game adds in the rest of the tech tree.
The Colossus essentially fills the role of a Siege Tech in a Terran mech build but gains the benefit of doing arc-AoE damage, shooting twice as fast, does not cause friendly fire damage, does not block it's own units, gains vision of the high ground, is a cliff-walker, and has a medium movement speed.
The Siege Tank cannot move in Siege Mode, has a massive range, but needs a spotter, and causes friendly fire damage that obliterates barracks armies. In tank mode its range is significantly reduced and no longer does AoE damage. Now granted, you can have two Siege Tanks for every one Colossus, so that's a pretty big deal.
The point I'm trying to make is that our Factory does not mesh as well with our Barracks nearly as well as your Robo meshes with the Gateway. It's actually not even close. Heck, the Robo Fac even produces a portable psi-field for your warpgates.
All of our "big scary units" are single-target DPS units. I just don't think Protoss realize how good they have it with the Colossus.
I strongly disagree, you see it ALL the time in games, people just don't recognize it when they see it. Terran does it frequently vs zerg for example, using siege tanks and other mech units with massive groups of marines.
You see it vs. protoss too, but less often, and I have no idea why. It's very hard to beat when executed well, especially since the best thing protoss has against mech are carriers.
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People who want to say that they should keep using MMM as the main part of their army b/c toss uses gateway units are being very strange.
Toss: Gateway=Tank, T2.5-3 = DPS
Terran: Rax=DPS, T2.5-3 = Tanks
The Zealot tanks for the Colossus or HT
The Thor (with SCVs) tanks for the Marines/Marauders
Terran is still supposed to transition, just the upgrades you get should be different.
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On March 03 2011 06:39 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:39 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:34 Aesop wrote:On March 02 2011 04:30 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:26 Barca wrote:
You say that the production of the previous unit is part of the production time of the current unit is ridiculous, but then you go on to say that High Templars only take 5 seconds to warp in, then the Warpgate is "occupied" for 45 seconds. Your first statement allows you to ignore the Warpgate cooldown for the rest of your argument, and that is something that cannot be ignored.
High Templars "occupy" your production buildings for 50 seconds. If I only have 1 gateway and I warp in a High Templar, I cannot warp in anything else during that span of 50 seconds. If a Terran player has 1 Barracks, he can only make 1 Ghost, so that Ghost will occupy that Barracks for 45 seconds.
You cannot ignore the cooldown of the previous unit. This is the case because Protoss production is backwards - unit first, cooldown after. The Warpgate mechanic forces you to wait for the first unit to finish before you get the second unit. So even though you say counting the previous units production cycle is ridiculous, it is accurate in determining the ability for a Protoss to produce units since the means at which Protoss get units is backwards. Exactly. His argument would only hold water if that HT was the first and only unit built out of that warpgate. He ignores the fact that, after being used as a gateway, the warpgate has already gone through several warp gate cycles before it got to the HT, and the only difference that it made was at around 6 minutes where, if timed properly, a unit finished out of the gate, the gate xformed to warpgate, and another unit was made right there. That is the only point in time where the front-loaded mechanic of the warpgate makes a difference, not 5 minutes later in the game when HT are available with the amulet upgrade. I think the OPs argument is about the "reaction time" you have between "realizing you need spellcasters" and actually "having them available with 75 energy". So assuming your warpgate cooldown is anywhere between ready and just spent, you have between 5 and 50 seconds to react. That gives an average reaction time of 27.5 seconds. With the 44.5 seconds to regenerate added to it, the "average templar reaction time" would be 72 seconds instead of ~50 for the other casters. Please forgive me, I don't understand your direction... 72 seconds for HT compared to ~50 for the others looks like a disadvantage to me, and when does a person "realize they need spellcasters" as opposed to just build them? All... the... fucking... time... are you kidding? HT you build as you need. Ghosts, you produce too many and you've fucked up because you have less marauders and spent 150/150 on a unit that is essentially USELESS (as after the EMP's go off, ghosts are a much less than ideal fighting unit, unlike HT whereas you can storm again, and again, and again with the more you have), don't build enough and you're going to get rolled. Same shit with infestors. Too many and you're going to get rolled. With ghosts, let's say you do build the optimal amount, and they get feedbacked... FUCK go back to your barracks and cancel the marauders building and try to get out a ghost. When you're toss? Oh, lemme chrono boost mah warpgates and insta-warp in some HT right where I need them on the battlefield, while warping my existing HT into archons. I'd be fine with amulet if HT weren't able to be warped in and had to be produced from the gateway instead. Here's the main flaw with the production time thing you guys keep speaking of. The ONLY situation where it's equal is when you realize you need an HT, and you JUST warped in something else. In all other situations, the time at which you can acquire your HT is significantly less. As with my example above, if I need ghosts in a situation and don't have them, I have to go to my rax, see a marauder half built, CANCEL it, then start building the ghost from scratch, causing massive inefficiencies from my barracks production. With an HT, if you had warped in a stalker, and the cooldown is half done, you only half to wait half a cooldown for the stalker, and zero inefficiency is caused. You get the HT out much quicker than I can get out my ghost. Considering if you really need the HT, you can chronoboost it to get it out even faster by reducing the 50% remaining cooldown, then you can warp the HT in anywhere you want, you're getting that HT INSANELY fast. If I don't want to have inefficiency as Terran, I have to let my marauder finish, then build the ghost after, delaying it even further, valuable time I don't have. Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 04:55 tehemperorer wrote:On March 03 2011 04:45 Reptilia wrote:
i dont understund.
Do protoss users think the amulet was balanced (pre 1.3)?
i mean how op is having a huge bio and beating ur huge army of gateway+collossus and the protoss just warps a couple ht and instantly destroy your army even tho u won a huge army battle.
Thats nonsense
However, maybe an upgrade that gives 13 extra starting energy would be good If I have two tier 3 tech paths, why are you still on 1.5? That's nonsense... Would that work in War3? Switch to mech and stop complaining about how your tier 1.5 melts to a more expensive and time consuming tier 3 tech You can always tell extremely mediocre Protoss players when they give this response. Let's analyze this. 1. You're still on gateway units as the bulk of your army, you are supported by a much smaller number of tier 3 units. Also, you have your HT come out of your gateways, same with DT, meaning you don't have to invest in multiple additional production facilities. There is not a "timing window" where T can drop down 5 factories and transition into a unit composition where you have zero upgrades. However, all your ground units benefit from ground upgrades. Make it so Colossus don't benefit from ground/armor upgrades and we'll talk again, ok? 2. Who even uses "tier 1.5" as Terran? Do vikings and medivacs not come from the starport? Do we not build ghosts as well to counter HT? Lategame Terran unit composition typically consists of Marines, Marauders, Medivacs, Vikings, Ghosts. Many others like myself include the occasion Raven and Thor. Our banshees can't exactly go toe-to-toe with armies lategame for lack of upgrades as well, and the fact by then blink stalkers are out, feedback pwns banshees, and storm gets them when they clump. 3. Mech is fucking awful. IMMVP had been able to max out a pure siege tank hellion army, and got ROLLED no problem by protoss forces. Mech crumbles to a toss army. Not only that, a void ray or carrier transition would have CRIPPLED him, since he had no antiair. At least in BW if they went carriers you could easily roll out tons of Goliaths. You can't do this in SC2, unless you're advising Thors vs Voids/Carriers. Not to mention T LACKS SPIDER MINES to hinder protoss mobility like there existed in BW. Also, not to mention that Siege tanks are awful vs Chargelots, doing 35 dmg. BW tanks did 75 dmg to broodwar shields. How many tank shots does it take to kill a zealot? 5? Craziness.
What's your definition of extremely mediocre?
1. Yes you do. You cannot effectively do HT on less than 2 bases, you cannot have HT form the bulk of your army, which means you need at least 6 gateways. You have to have TC and TA and storm and KA, all the while maintaining a sizeable force that doesn't simply die to any sort of aggressive Terran. Therefore, you are likely to have inserted a forge in there, spent more money on stalkers/sentries as you tech, which the more gas you spend the longer your tech is delayed. All of this stuff happens in a game that whittling it down to some inane argument about 5 second build times is a very Terran way to approach a very Protoss issue.
2. Starport can be built fairly early, and you can skip the build time for reactor or tech lab if you've already made them for your barracks. I argue that medivacs, vikings, and banshees are tier 1.5 simply because of how early they appear in the game, and mostly because unit compositions can include a good number of them on single base resources.
3. If you've faced HT/Immortal, then mech is your only resort, and no, having played against it, it is not awful. Since it is relatively new to Terran players, it is mostly unrefined, but awful? No. For example, if you're worried about chargelots on your tanks, why are you not getting several hellions to aoe the zeals to death? You know that after a big engagement a lot of the P reinforcements are going to be zealots, why are you not making hellions then?
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On March 03 2011 06:39 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:39 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:34 Aesop wrote:On March 02 2011 04:30 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:26 Barca wrote:
You say that the production of the previous unit is part of the production time of the current unit is ridiculous, but then you go on to say that High Templars only take 5 seconds to warp in, then the Warpgate is "occupied" for 45 seconds. Your first statement allows you to ignore the Warpgate cooldown for the rest of your argument, and that is something that cannot be ignored.
High Templars "occupy" your production buildings for 50 seconds. If I only have 1 gateway and I warp in a High Templar, I cannot warp in anything else during that span of 50 seconds. If a Terran player has 1 Barracks, he can only make 1 Ghost, so that Ghost will occupy that Barracks for 45 seconds.
You cannot ignore the cooldown of the previous unit. This is the case because Protoss production is backwards - unit first, cooldown after. The Warpgate mechanic forces you to wait for the first unit to finish before you get the second unit. So even though you say counting the previous units production cycle is ridiculous, it is accurate in determining the ability for a Protoss to produce units since the means at which Protoss get units is backwards. Exactly. His argument would only hold water if that HT was the first and only unit built out of that warpgate. He ignores the fact that, after being used as a gateway, the warpgate has already gone through several warp gate cycles before it got to the HT, and the only difference that it made was at around 6 minutes where, if timed properly, a unit finished out of the gate, the gate xformed to warpgate, and another unit was made right there. That is the only point in time where the front-loaded mechanic of the warpgate makes a difference, not 5 minutes later in the game when HT are available with the amulet upgrade. I think the OPs argument is about the "reaction time" you have between "realizing you need spellcasters" and actually "having them available with 75 energy". So assuming your warpgate cooldown is anywhere between ready and just spent, you have between 5 and 50 seconds to react. That gives an average reaction time of 27.5 seconds. With the 44.5 seconds to regenerate added to it, the "average templar reaction time" would be 72 seconds instead of ~50 for the other casters. Please forgive me, I don't understand your direction... 72 seconds for HT compared to ~50 for the others looks like a disadvantage to me, and when does a person "realize they need spellcasters" as opposed to just build them? All... the... fucking... time... are you kidding? HT you build as you need. Ghosts, you produce too many and you've fucked up because you have less marauders and spent 150/150 on a unit that is essentially USELESS
this struck me as really comical, i don't think you know what "essentially" means. a unit that hits light for 20 and can snipe and emp is not "useless" at all. the thing that makes it even funnier is that you're comparing it to a high templar that literally can't do anything after using up its energy. these forums are pretty great sometimes.
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On March 03 2011 07:02 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 06:52 tehemperorer wrote:On March 03 2011 06:43 Apolo wrote:On March 03 2011 06:39 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 02 2011 04:39 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:34 Aesop wrote:On March 02 2011 04:30 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:26 Barca wrote:
You say that the production of the previous unit is part of the production time of the current unit is ridiculous, but then you go on to say that High Templars only take 5 seconds to warp in, then the Warpgate is "occupied" for 45 seconds. Your first statement allows you to ignore the Warpgate cooldown for the rest of your argument, and that is something that cannot be ignored.
High Templars "occupy" your production buildings for 50 seconds. If I only have 1 gateway and I warp in a High Templar, I cannot warp in anything else during that span of 50 seconds. If a Terran player has 1 Barracks, he can only make 1 Ghost, so that Ghost will occupy that Barracks for 45 seconds.
You cannot ignore the cooldown of the previous unit. This is the case because Protoss production is backwards - unit first, cooldown after. The Warpgate mechanic forces you to wait for the first unit to finish before you get the second unit. So even though you say counting the previous units production cycle is ridiculous, it is accurate in determining the ability for a Protoss to produce units since the means at which Protoss get units is backwards. Exactly. His argument would only hold water if that HT was the first and only unit built out of that warpgate. He ignores the fact that, after being used as a gateway, the warpgate has already gone through several warp gate cycles before it got to the HT, and the only difference that it made was at around 6 minutes where, if timed properly, a unit finished out of the gate, the gate xformed to warpgate, and another unit was made right there. That is the only point in time where the front-loaded mechanic of the warpgate makes a difference, not 5 minutes later in the game when HT are available with the amulet upgrade. I think the OPs argument is about the "reaction time" you have between "realizing you need spellcasters" and actually "having them available with 75 energy". So assuming your warpgate cooldown is anywhere between ready and just spent, you have between 5 and 50 seconds to react. That gives an average reaction time of 27.5 seconds. With the 44.5 seconds to regenerate added to it, the "average templar reaction time" would be 72 seconds instead of ~50 for the other casters. Please forgive me, I don't understand your direction... 72 seconds for HT compared to ~50 for the others looks like a disadvantage to me, and when does a person "realize they need spellcasters" as opposed to just build them? All... the... fucking... time... are you kidding? HT you build as you need. Ghosts, you produce too many and you've fucked up because you have less marauders and spent 150/150 on a unit that is essentially USELESS (as after the EMP's go off, ghosts are a much less than ideal fighting unit, unlike HT whereas you can storm again, and again, and again with the more you have), don't build enough and you're going to get rolled. Same shit with infestors. Too many and you're going to get rolled. With ghosts, let's say you do build the optimal amount, and they get feedbacked... FUCK go back to your barracks and cancel the marauders building and try to get out a ghost. When you're toss? Oh, lemme chrono boost mah warpgates and insta-warp in some HT right where I need them on the battlefield, while warping my existing HT into archons. I'd be fine with amulet if HT weren't able to be warped in and had to be produced from the gateway instead. Here's the main flaw with the production time thing you guys keep speaking of. The ONLY situation where it's equal is when you realize you need an HT, and you JUST warped in something else. In all other situations, the time at which you can acquire your HT is significantly less. As with my example above, if I need ghosts in a situation and don't have them, I have to go to my rax, see a marauder half built, CANCEL it, then start building the ghost from scratch, causing massive inefficiencies from my barracks production. With an HT, if you had warped in a stalker, and the cooldown is half done, you only half to wait half a cooldown for the stalker, and zero inefficiency is caused. You get the HT out much quicker than I can get out my ghost. Considering if you really need the HT, you can chronoboost it to get it out even faster by reducing the 50% remaining cooldown, then you can warp the HT in anywhere you want, you're getting that HT INSANELY fast. If I don't want to have inefficiency as Terran, I have to let my marauder finish, then build the ghost after, delaying it even further, valuable time I don't have. That whole (flawled) argument can be summed as follows: [Insert random fact about a protoss mechanic taken out of context making it look imbalanced] Do you want me to list some terran aspects that taken out of context could be seen as OP as well? Or zerg? Stop with this nonsense. Never, analyzing a mechanic by itself and comparing to the correspondent of the other classes ever provide a good way to analyze imbalance. Each race has a set of mechanics that interact with each other, and none can be set apart and analyzed like that. They have to be analyzed from the race's point of view, not the mechanics' point of view. And that is why the OP is wrong... It fails to account for so many things that its conclusion is too simple in relation to the scope of the actual issue. Plus that post you quoted is a really good example of why not to compare the two build times in relation to Khaydarin Amulet for the simple reason that, even though it's stated before, ghosts appear on the battlefield earlier, for less resources, and have more uses beyond countering HT. Anyone know of an early push that involves ghosts in PvT? I do. What about that early HT rush? Never heard of it. Are you really comparing the use of a unit in what is essentially an all-in timing attack to a unit's general role and usage in a game? That isn't even relevant. Because the ability to use that unit in a timing window is not related to how it's used in a standard game. When you use the ghost in a standard game, it's role is not affected whatsoever by the fact you could have used it earlier in a timing rush. Just as you can Thor rush, but you're not going to take into account the fact you can Thor rush into a discussion talking about how useful a Thor is mid-late game. You can say it would be too powerful in a rush if we buffed Thors because they aren't used lategame, but that's a completely new topic. You're also crazy, ghosts don't appear on the battlefield before HT. Once again, while they can doesn't mean they ever do. You don't tech to ghosts unless you're going for a near all-in timing attack, or you think they're going HT's.
1. Yes, I am really comparing two utility units, one of which you seem to think is only good in timing attacks
2. Actually, using certain units or tech in timing windows to exploit teching or weak unit compositions between tech transitions is related to how it's used in a standard game, that's what a timing attack is
3. Having a ghost on the field before High Templar means that your build dictated it. Terrans don't build ghost academies early on and then never produce a single ghost until they see HT, since Immortals are also pretty susceptible to EMP and it makes sense to build ghosts against Protoss.
Also, you really need to re-evaluate your definition of the word "all-in." I hope you know something like a 4-gate isn't all in at all until you've passed the 8th or 9th minute without expanding and have no other option but to continue with it until you lose or he loses...
Please forgive me if I sound elitist or arrogant in asking this, but what league/points are you? It really helps when trying to defend a point when I know how to tailor my responses without sounding insulting to someone who has credentials to back up the points they make.
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On March 03 2011 07:31 rycho wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 06:39 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 02 2011 04:39 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:34 Aesop wrote:On March 02 2011 04:30 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:26 Barca wrote:
You say that the production of the previous unit is part of the production time of the current unit is ridiculous, but then you go on to say that High Templars only take 5 seconds to warp in, then the Warpgate is "occupied" for 45 seconds. Your first statement allows you to ignore the Warpgate cooldown for the rest of your argument, and that is something that cannot be ignored.
High Templars "occupy" your production buildings for 50 seconds. If I only have 1 gateway and I warp in a High Templar, I cannot warp in anything else during that span of 50 seconds. If a Terran player has 1 Barracks, he can only make 1 Ghost, so that Ghost will occupy that Barracks for 45 seconds.
You cannot ignore the cooldown of the previous unit. This is the case because Protoss production is backwards - unit first, cooldown after. The Warpgate mechanic forces you to wait for the first unit to finish before you get the second unit. So even though you say counting the previous units production cycle is ridiculous, it is accurate in determining the ability for a Protoss to produce units since the means at which Protoss get units is backwards. Exactly. His argument would only hold water if that HT was the first and only unit built out of that warpgate. He ignores the fact that, after being used as a gateway, the warpgate has already gone through several warp gate cycles before it got to the HT, and the only difference that it made was at around 6 minutes where, if timed properly, a unit finished out of the gate, the gate xformed to warpgate, and another unit was made right there. That is the only point in time where the front-loaded mechanic of the warpgate makes a difference, not 5 minutes later in the game when HT are available with the amulet upgrade. I think the OPs argument is about the "reaction time" you have between "realizing you need spellcasters" and actually "having them available with 75 energy". So assuming your warpgate cooldown is anywhere between ready and just spent, you have between 5 and 50 seconds to react. That gives an average reaction time of 27.5 seconds. With the 44.5 seconds to regenerate added to it, the "average templar reaction time" would be 72 seconds instead of ~50 for the other casters. Please forgive me, I don't understand your direction... 72 seconds for HT compared to ~50 for the others looks like a disadvantage to me, and when does a person "realize they need spellcasters" as opposed to just build them? All... the... fucking... time... are you kidding? HT you build as you need. Ghosts, you produce too many and you've fucked up because you have less marauders and spent 150/150 on a unit that is essentially USELESS this struck me as really comical, i don't think you know what "essentially" means. a unit that hits light for 20 and can snipe and emp is not "useless" at all. the thing that makes it even funnier is that you're comparing it to a high templar that literally can't do anything after using up its energy. these forums are pretty great sometimes.
What strikes me as even more comical is your inability to correctly discern what I even meant. Let me break it down for you as it obviously went over you.
1) "if you produce too many..." which obviously means "overproduce." You built too many ghosts. Say you have 3 ghosts that can pepper the opponent's entire army (wowzers, OP!) with EMP's. But you built 6. There is no value in having the other 3 ghosts in your army. If I could keep EMPing your army over and over and your health bars would go down, then yes, clearly, I would be making a silly argument. In case you weren't aware, however, that's not how EMP works!
2) I said it's essentially useless. Yes, I'm aware of what that means, but thanks! The entire value of the ghost stems from it's ability to EMP. If you want a ghost in TvP, it is not for the snipe ability. Nor it's ability to cloak, or deal 20 damage to light. The fundamental value of the Ghost relies almost entirely with the ability to EMP. Since, we're aware, if we have any reading comprehension, that I said Ghosts were useless when you produce too many, you can not use them having EMP as an argument!
However, reading your post, you seem to have missed these fundamental pieces of information in your attempt to laugh at the "ridiculousness of TL forums." Ironically, it is posters like you that post on impulse without actually trying to see what the other person was saying that have recently flooded the boards.
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Ive read most of this thread.
I honestly think, as a protoss player, that this change is outrageously poorly thought out. People have already covered my concerns, so I'd just be repeating them at this point: too heavy of a nerf, power of bio, etc etc.
BUT I also think that the amulet ability was too powerful to begin with. Insti storms are very nice but that is the type of poor design that threatens to break the game across the board.
I really think that this thread is becoming too obsessed with smaller things and not the big issue.
The big issues are things like: Terran bio power and dominance, protoss zergification (mobility for strength), symbolized by things like warpgates, overcompensating units like colossi, sentry and HT and a lack of progression for terran after bio (the supposed mech weakness: why evolve when you dont need to?).
So, broadly speaking, here are some changes that would affect the outcome of the game that blizzard has completely and utterly shied away from implementing:
1) nerfing terran bio, specifically marauder slow and maybe damage vs armored-- critical for the early game, and for lategame drops. 30 second stim nerf was a step in the right direction.
2) nerfing warpgate-- why is the best upgrade in the game so fucking cheap and easy to get? its not a choice, its simply poor design that this game-changing upgrade is both early (making strong timing attacks very volatile) and cheap (50/50 ....?)
3) buffing gateway units, but only slightly: should balance out more around powerful and mobile. increase cost if necessary. This should utterly change early game. protoss should be strong at first until terran obtain more critical masses of their infantry. At that point, the warpgate should kick in midgame and the toss mobility should become more advantageous. The terrans could counter with upgrades (cheap) and medevacs (counter mobility) and the protoss with upgrades (expensive).
The relationship between the two armies must be made more equal. 2 culprits of this are forcefield and warpgates. The fault is actually mostly on the toss side by my reckoning, but marauder slowing plays a part.
4) Nerf protoss support units: colossi, sentry and HT, but only slightly. Colossi are OP. ***I want to clarify*** by saying that i believe a unit can be OP by itself but also balanced within the scope of the game. The colossi are definitely OP, by which i mean DOMINANT. They are (so far) balanced by vikings. I dont view this as a healthy relationship, even if it is mostly balanced. A solution might be to use the BW HT energy upgrade and sentry really need to be scrutinized more closely.
5) Buff mech. I dont play terran so I dont know what the problem is. Viable alternatives to infantry would be appreciated by everyone bored of MMMV, maybe G.
By buffing toss early game/nerfing terran early game and nerfing toss lategame/buffing terran lategame a balance is maintained and made more healthy. The problem units/abilities should be evident, its up to blizzard to do the numbers.
As I am an armchair theorycrafting newb, many people will be offended by this post. But if you take nothing else away, think about this statement:
Blizzard have not helped themselves by creating a stable base for a game with which to balance everything else around. Basic BW truths are now nothing more than fantasies, among them army reinforcement and "supply lines."
Warpgate is one of the coolest abilities out there, but its very presence provides a new and potentially destabilizing element to the early game, the most volatile time. In BW, each army had to reinforce from its base, but now, toss units warp directly to the battlefield. I want to argue that SC2's emphasis on mobility (cliffclimb, slow, creep, FF, blink, charge, medevacs, fungal, etc) is the source of the problem. By not creating a situation in which all armies have to travel equal distances from their bases, blizzard creates an uneven foundation on which to balance the rest of the game (hence creating comparatively weak toss units backed by extremely powerful support).
edit: maybe something could be said here about a lack of powerful area denial abilities/units: lurkers, mines, tanks, arbiters are all gone and racial mobility seems to have increased across the board. Problem?
Changing the fundamental nature of warpgates to be a mid-late game expensive upgrade would have been a better choice, or perhaps using warpgates as a counterpart to gateways instead of a substitute. Or perhaps, like reactor/tech lab, limiting certain tech units to one or the other.
I fear that, since blizzard has not truly addressed the core issues directly, specifically mobility, they are never going to, leaving this largely (so far) balanced but messy and not-so-subtle game to its inglorious fate. I hope not.
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EPT
