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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 03 2011 08:15 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 08:06 Kazang wrote:
I don't get why this is even a discussion, the OP points out the reason why Blizzard has decided to remove it.
Removing KA should be seen as a bug fix more than anything else, it was/is a oversight in design and a unitended result of the warpgate mechanic. 1. Because the OPs logic is flawed, read the posts. 2. That last paragraph is insulting to players who have torn their hair out trying to find efficient unit compositions that handle super common bio. 3. I will say it again because I know you're not reading all this: The OP's post fails to account for so many things that its conclusion is too simple in relation to the scope of the actual issue.
Please quote any posts that point out that the logic is flawed, I've read most of thread and have seen nothing of the sort.
Most peoples arguement is that Protoss need KA for some reason or other and doesn't address the logic at all.
The issue is time from decision to action, there is a major discrepency from deciding you need to have unit and actually having it with all races, except protoss. Warpgates are generally ok becasue gateway units aside from the HT are relatively weak on their own.
It's Blizzards opinion that they ability to not have to think ahead and create powerful units such as HT ahead of time is not balanced.
Removing KA is the most simple way to change that.
Example: Risk free storm "drops", a player doesn't have to risk carrying units in a drop ship like every other race, they just wait until they are in position to storm then warp in.
Do I think that is massively unbalanced? Not really, but it certainly isn't even either and does lower the skill factor somewhat.
It's not so much about balance and but how they want their game to be played, they obviously want HT to be a decision made in advance, with all the drawbacks that entails.
It doesn't matter if you or I think that it is unfair to protoss.
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On March 03 2011 08:37 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 08:29 Kazang wrote:On March 03 2011 08:10 da_head wrote:On March 03 2011 08:06 Kazang wrote:
I don't get why this is even a discussion, the OP points out the reason why Blizzard has decided to remove it.
It doesn't really matter if poeple think it's the wrong decision based on how much HT are used. The logic in the OP that is quite obviously the reasoning behind the change, and cannot be argued with. If HT are under or overused is irrelevant to the fact that Blizzard has decided(and logically so) that KA was "imbalanced" when it came to comparison with what the other 2 races have.
The other thing is that from the moment you decide to make a HT to when it can storm (45 seconds) is still less with 1.3 than what it was in BW (50 seconds build time and 20 ish seconds to get enough energy to storm) and HT did not have any abilty they could use as soon as they were availble in BW they were actually useless until 70 seconds after a player decided to make one, unless morphed into a archon.
HT were not a useless unit in BW just because you couldn't warp them in anywhere on the map ready to storm instantly.
Suddenly in SC2 they are going to be useless and never used? Please......
Removing KA should be seen as a bug fix more than anything else, it was/is a oversight in design and a unitended result of the warpgate mechanic. Since when has every decision blizzard made been correct? Also are you forgetting how much better storm was in bw? How about how hard/infrequently emp was used? (until later game) Or how there was no collosus to fall back on (as a superior choice)? No i'm pointing out that having to wait to get energy to storm isn't the end of the world. And that people can cry all they want but at the end of the day it's not going to make much difference as it's Blizzards choice, and really is quite logical. Have some faith in what they what they are doing, becasue they have done a amazing job so far. If you really want to a make a difference, go play on the PTR and use HT, give them real play testing to base their changes on. I don't see how having an alterantive to HT is a bad thing either, HT do more than just aoe damage. Feedback is one of the best abilities in the game against terran armies No, psionic storm is. Feedback used to be decent until the thor's energy bars were removed, but that was totally necessary. Waiting for energy is what P players always do with HT, and HT are the alternative to colossi, not the other way around. The problem is removing the KA where warping in HT for instant storms either serve as an efficient and rapid way to deal with threats, and for some degree of harassment. Again, a single drop needs about 16-18 supply to counter it. If you bring less, you either run the risk of losing everything and not culling the threat, or you've traded equal supply but not equal resources to fight it off. The answer to the ease and efficiency in which Terrans can do medivac drops without any real danger (trading units with P is favorable to Terran) is HT with KA, where there now lies a chance of losing everything and gaining nothing on the drop. HT and KA actually put a risk into dropping, where there wasn't one before that upgrade finishes.
I see absolutely no reasoning why lategame, where P has advantages on both T/Z clearly, that P should be able to have no problem in handling drops. There is nothing to keep you from leaving a single HT in each base with a few photon cannons (as I said, since you're already at such an advantage lategame, this is only lessening that overpowering force). In BW it was common to have 2 HT at every expo for this reasoning, and they couldn't even warp them in, they had to move them there. And late-late game, they'd even leave multiple reavers at every expo with HT's. Don't try to use the "but we need those HT in the fights!" argument because that's ridiculous when you're army is already rolling players. Zerg already has their supply in queens at all their bases, and Terran had to deal with leaving shit at their base all the time. You also can reinforce directly on the battlefield.
Being able to be able to immediately handedly react to any drop in a lategame scenario isn't even a good thing in an RTS, besides the fact you can still warp in HT anyways to feedback medivacs with energy, or you can warpin chargelots lol. Why again, can you not just warpin 4 speedlots and an HT, feedback the medivac so it can't heal, and beat the drop no problem that way?
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On March 03 2011 08:37 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 08:29 tehemperorer wrote:On March 03 2011 08:17 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 03 2011 07:38 tehemperorer wrote:On March 03 2011 07:02 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 03 2011 06:52 tehemperorer wrote:On March 03 2011 06:43 Apolo wrote:On March 03 2011 06:39 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 02 2011 04:39 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:34 Aesop wrote:
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I think the OPs argument is about the "reaction time" you have between "realizing you need spellcasters" and actually "having them available with 75 energy". So assuming your warpgate cooldown is anywhere between ready and just spent, you have between 5 and 50 seconds to react. That gives an average reaction time of 27.5 seconds.
With the 44.5 seconds to regenerate added to it, the "average templar reaction time" would be 72 seconds instead of ~50 for the other casters. Please forgive me, I don't understand your direction... 72 seconds for HT compared to ~50 for the others looks like a disadvantage to me, and when does a person "realize they need spellcasters" as opposed to just build them? All... the... fucking... time... are you kidding? HT you build as you need. Ghosts, you produce too many and you've fucked up because you have less marauders and spent 150/150 on a unit that is essentially USELESS (as after the EMP's go off, ghosts are a much less than ideal fighting unit, unlike HT whereas you can storm again, and again, and again with the more you have), don't build enough and you're going to get rolled. Same shit with infestors. Too many and you're going to get rolled. With ghosts, let's say you do build the optimal amount, and they get feedbacked... FUCK go back to your barracks and cancel the marauders building and try to get out a ghost. When you're toss? Oh, lemme chrono boost mah warpgates and insta-warp in some HT right where I need them on the battlefield, while warping my existing HT into archons. I'd be fine with amulet if HT weren't able to be warped in and had to be produced from the gateway instead. Here's the main flaw with the production time thing you guys keep speaking of. The ONLY situation where it's equal is when you realize you need an HT, and you JUST warped in something else. In all other situations, the time at which you can acquire your HT is significantly less. As with my example above, if I need ghosts in a situation and don't have them, I have to go to my rax, see a marauder half built, CANCEL it, then start building the ghost from scratch, causing massive inefficiencies from my barracks production. With an HT, if you had warped in a stalker, and the cooldown is half done, you only half to wait half a cooldown for the stalker, and zero inefficiency is caused. You get the HT out much quicker than I can get out my ghost. Considering if you really need the HT, you can chronoboost it to get it out even faster by reducing the 50% remaining cooldown, then you can warp the HT in anywhere you want, you're getting that HT INSANELY fast. If I don't want to have inefficiency as Terran, I have to let my marauder finish, then build the ghost after, delaying it even further, valuable time I don't have. That whole (flawled) argument can be summed as follows: [Insert random fact about a protoss mechanic taken out of context making it look imbalanced] Do you want me to list some terran aspects that taken out of context could be seen as OP as well? Or zerg? Stop with this nonsense. Never, analyzing a mechanic by itself and comparing to the correspondent of the other classes ever provide a good way to analyze imbalance. Each race has a set of mechanics that interact with each other, and none can be set apart and analyzed like that. They have to be analyzed from the race's point of view, not the mechanics' point of view. And that is why the OP is wrong... It fails to account for so many things that its conclusion is too simple in relation to the scope of the actual issue. Plus that post you quoted is a really good example of why not to compare the two build times in relation to Khaydarin Amulet for the simple reason that, even though it's stated before, ghosts appear on the battlefield earlier, for less resources, and have more uses beyond countering HT. Anyone know of an early push that involves ghosts in PvT? I do. What about that early HT rush? Never heard of it. Are you really comparing the use of a unit in what is essentially an all-in timing attack to a unit's general role and usage in a game? That isn't even relevant. Because the ability to use that unit in a timing window is not related to how it's used in a standard game. When you use the ghost in a standard game, it's role is not affected whatsoever by the fact you could have used it earlier in a timing rush. Just as you can Thor rush, but you're not going to take into account the fact you can Thor rush into a discussion talking about how useful a Thor is mid-late game. You can say it would be too powerful in a rush if we buffed Thors because they aren't used lategame, but that's a completely new topic. You're also crazy, ghosts don't appear on the battlefield before HT. Once again, while they can doesn't mean they ever do. You don't tech to ghosts unless you're going for a near all-in timing attack, or you think they're going HT's. 1. Yes, I am really comparing two utility units, one of which you seem to think is only good in timing attacks 2. Actually, using certain units or tech in timing windows to exploit teching or weak unit compositions between tech transitions is related to how it's used in a standard game, that's what a timing attack is 3. Having a ghost on the field before High Templar means that your build dictated it. Terrans don't build ghost academies early on and then never produce a single ghost until they see HT, since Immortals are also pretty susceptible to EMP and it makes sense to build ghosts against Protoss. Also, you really need to re-evaluate your definition of the word "all-in." I hope you know something like a 4-gate isn't all in at all until you've passed the 8th or 9th minute without expanding and have no other option but to continue with it until you lose or he loses... Please forgive me if I sound elitist or arrogant in asking this, but what league/points are you? It really helps when trying to defend a point when I know how to tailor my responses without sounding insulting to someone who has credentials to back up the points they make. 1. I never stated it was only good in timing attacks. I am fully aware the Ghost is a vital unit to the Terran arsenal vs Protoss. 2. It is not related to the effectiveness of the unit once said timing window has passed. It only affects how you'd attempt to balance or change the unit. You can not bring into the discussion of how a TvP lategame is playing out by responding with the fact that Terran could have done an early game timing attack with Ghosts. The only thing you can mention is that a standard Protoss build has to account for the fact it is susceptible to that timing attack, and had to possibly alter their build order to account for it (thus making it less optimal than if that wasn't a vulnerable to the timing attack). But the effectiveness of the ghost itself in standard play has not been altered. In other words, while the threat of an army game Ghost attack might force Protoss to alter it's play, it does not intrinsically strengthen the Ghost; the Ghost remains unchanged, it merely strengthens Terran's ability in TvP overall. 3. A 4-gate opener is either going to be all-in or simply extremely inefficient. You're either doing the all-in build, or you're instead noticably delaying your expansion from a 3gate expand and setting yourself up to be incredibly weak against a timing attack. This is not the case with the Ghost timing attack simply because you are committed to doing it - you've already built the Ghost Academy, the Ghost, etc. It does not make sense to build Ghosts vs Robo tech unless they skipped Colossus entirely and went pure immortal, which means they will eventually go Templar tech. Thus, that is the reason you're going Ghosts, Templar not Immortals. Every Terran knows this. If they went Colossus your army WILL get rolled and that is why it's a build that demands you either do considerable amount of damage to the Protoss or you kill him. You cannot do the Ghost timing attack, not do any damage, and turn around and walk away if the Protoss was going Colossus without being incredibly far behind, near the threshold of not being viable to comeback without the Protoss effing up. 4. I switched to Zerg lately, but a little over a week ago I was still Terran around 3450 Masters. Which translates to around 3500 now if you include bonus pool inflation? This is the problem that I find with Terrans argument: everything you said relates mostly to the use of storm and not the Khaydarin Amulet. The fact that I can have colossi and HT in the same army has nothing to do with the KA. The math that was presented in the OP relates to the use of the KA, and came to the conclusion that HT somehow have storm capabilities earlier than any of the other race's casters, which is completely untrue. Like I said before, if the gripe is with storm, why are they moving to get rid of the amulet? If the problem is warping in and instant storming on a mineral line, why is the race with sensor towers complaining? If the problem is being able to warp in HT to finish off the remaining forces right after a battle is basically won for the Protoss player, why is that even a consideration? If the problem is having a drop nullified by a single HT, then the units in the dropship should be units that do well against storm, not pure marines. The point is that removing the KA is a very messy and short-sighted way to solve the apparent problems in the PvT matchup. No, the problem isn't necessarily with Storm itself. I don't believe that's what people are arguing. If you want to look a few posts back I believe I outlined it decently. It revolves around the fact that storms are more so "on-demand." It goes to "oh, I need a storm," and you can get that storm, exactly where you need it, in little to no time at all. This is possible because 1) The warp-in mechanic and being able to spawn units anywhere within pylon radius 2) The fact warpgates work on a cooldown mechanic rather than a long production time, which more often than not (as I mentioned, at the very worst it's the *same* situation as Terran/Zerg if you realize you need the storm at the IMMEDIATE timing after you just did a warpin).
1) on-demand minus the warp-in time and the necessity of the psionic matrix
2) the warp-in mechanic works with pylons. Allowing Protoss to build pylons anywhere on the map is conceding map control to the P player in the same way as allowing Zerg to position their OLs anywhere on the map.
3) that warp-in mechanic is necessary because the Protoss army is slow, doesn't do well as individuals, and are costly. Warping in HT are an extension of that idea into the late game when P cannot afford to split their units to deal with super efficient and cheap Terran units. You need expensive and time consuming templar tech to do it, but once you have paid the costs you are allowed some degree of efficiency when it comes to defending against more mobile attackers. That is why removing KA is a bad idea, and that is why the OPs logic is flawed; it is super contextualized and doesn't account for more important factors that exist in-game.
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On March 03 2011 08:09 jaiiiii wrote:
Reading this thread is giving me a major headache.
For all you protoss players that are arguing that the only effective way to deal with drops is with HT...grow a pair. seriously. unless terran is doom dropping you there is no excuse for not being able to warp in a few extra units to deal with the drop. And for all of you who are sitting around whining that to put a cannon down is a huge investment and its not worth it...stop complaining. It's not like terran presses "T" and insta kills the cannon, and every single probe on ur mineral line. the cannon is there to buy you time to get ur probes out/warp stuff in/pull stuff back etc. You aren't even allowed to argue about the whole "oh but a cannon is 100+150" cause dont be silly, you have pylons all over the place.
For all you terrans out there who are thinking "oh man i can't drop this toss currently bc he can warp in hts and save the day"...learn to dodge. seriously. And for those terrans among you who are actually getting warp prism harassed by ht...there's really no excuse. The HT is an absurdly slow unit with a casting range that means you WILL see it on ur minimap, and if you dont react, I dont even know what to say.
There are valid arguments to both sides: however, they're completely overshadowed by the sheer amount of idiocy posted by 500 other people who love to theorycraft.
-terrans want protoss to be punished for an undefended base. FAIR ENOUGH. everyone should be punished for that. and in the current situation, we are...for 5 seconds (assuming at least 1 wg is on cooldown). After that point, in the current situation toss will warp in 1 or 2 ht and use his storms (apparently this is enough to scare off whatever terran units are there).
-protoss are arguing that with this nerf, HT is a walking deadweight, a 50/150 resource sink that does nothing for an additional 45 seconds. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. There is no point arguing this. If we're going to compare casters..The second u spawn a ghost, it can shoot at something. It can cloak and go run around being a general nuisance(albeit with an upgrade). It can go scout. Basically, it can be useful. If there were no energy upgrade for ghosts IT WOULD NOT MATTER. The ghost could still retain some of its use. I'm not going to argue past that, and if you think that I'm incorrect, I cannot help you. If you can find useful things to do with an HT for 45 seconds, you are the second coming of our lord and savior. ( I actually find this to be one of the most annoying things. That terrans refuse to incorporate ghosts into their standard bioball against toss, the effectiveness of emp is absolutely absurd and most toss will simply ignore the ghost in a big fight. )
I'm not sure if i've stated this, but im a protoss player. I think the nerf is absolutely ridiculous, removal of KA will mess everything up. Will lead to more stagnant robo/stargate play, both of which are too easily countered. For all of you terran who sits here thinking "omgod protoss t1 is fine these guys are all nubs" just go play a few games as protoss.
Other things I believe
Protoss side:the HT needs a cooldown on it's ability when just spawning. Leave the upgrade in, etc. Personally, I believe the current cost to make HT's so lethal is completely justified, seeing as how they wipe the floor with bio. Nothing wrong with adding a 5-10 second delay on storm's ability to be cast.
Terran side: you guys need to start exploring alternative paths. There is not a single terran that I have faced who does not complain "BLAH BLAH BLAH MECH SUCKS AGAINST TOSS BLAH BLAH BLAH". I feel pretty confident in my ability to say that about 90% of you haven't even tried it. In fact, I'll go so far as to say 95% of you haven't tried it. 5% don't want to, the other 90% are the ultimate theorycrafters of lore. Mech is absolutely beastly against Toss, if executed correctly. This game is not BW. You don't go pure mech. SO WHAT. you have the most cost effective t1 army in the game, throw in a little mech and sacrifice some of your mobility to up your army damage output. Not like protoss players are sitting here thinking "its ok i can run into this siege line right here".
Overall: Everone on this forum needs to grow up. Seriously. I swear to god the first day I started lurking on TL i thought to myself "wow, what an awesome place where educated people come to discuss things in a civil manner." Then all the cracks showed through and I realized that either A) you're all trolling me or B) you all don't actually own sc2 and you're just playing the game out in your heads. Just go play the game, seriously.
this is the most ignorant and weak argument i have seen in all "amulet is being removed" threads
your argument about "do something with your ht while you are waiting" is the stupidest thing i heard
hts unlike ghosts are 10 times slower, they cant attack,and all they can do is cast 1 feedback once they are spawned before being able to do storm
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On March 03 2011 08:41 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 08:35 Sek-Kuar wrote:On March 03 2011 08:15 tehemperorer wrote:On March 03 2011 08:06 Kazang wrote:
I don't get why this is even a discussion, the OP points out the reason why Blizzard has decided to remove it.
Removing KA should be seen as a bug fix more than anything else, it was/is a oversight in design and a unitended result of the warpgate mechanic. 1. Because the OPs logic is flawed, read the posts. 2. That last paragraph is insulting to players who have torn their hair out trying to find efficient unit compositions that handle super common bio. 3. I will say it again because I know you're not reading all this: The OP's post fails to account for so many things that its conclusion is too simple in relation to the scope of the actual issue. You know, you spend so much time commenting everything that my logic is flawed, but you have never said single argument other than: 1) Theorycrafting in general 2) Theorycrafting about races you dont play 3) Theorycrafting how hard your race is I simply suggest you to join chat channel "Theorycrafting for Bronze Masters" I heard they are live on every realm. If I say that 49,5 seconds is closer to 45 seconds rather than 5 seconds to 45 seconds, its either true or prove Im wrong. But trying to imply that I said something I didnt to use it as argument against comparing two numbers is just stupid, and you better join that chat channel I suggested. I've listed many arguments, and I am a 2900 Masters player that has used HT in place of Colossi since August of 2010. I know the matchup, and I know enough to tell you that your logic is flawed. AGAIN, your analysis is so reduced in scope and comes to a conclusion completely ignorant of the other mitigating factors in the matchup.
My analysis is 100% correct because all I said was that 45, 50 and 49,5 are more similar numbers than 45, 50 and 5. Because for some stupid reason all Protoss believe than HTs takes 50 seconds to build, so removing amulet is unfair.
You have come here and started theorycrafting about how is everything different or whatever.
Since the entire point of this thread was to explain gaining energy, and how does some mechanics affect it, I cant really see how could I possible be wrong unless 5 is greater number than 50, which I frankly believe we could finally agree is not true.
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On March 02 2011 04:22 tehemperorer wrote:
Yes. There will be only one viable tech path now, and Terrans will know that and blindly build vikings before you even have a robo fac up. Removal of the amulet is a bad idea and it puts the HT into an auxiliary role as a tier 3 unit. People complain about the colossus and they remove amulet = more colossus in more games
I disagree. Any protoss ground army can still be well stocked with HT's, as long as the player had the foresight to warp them in a few seconds before he or she needed them. The problem with the energy upgrade was that it enabled a player to have access to psi storm at the snap of their fingers, whenever they wanted, no planning required. I can only think of a few things which I will no longer be able to do with my HT's:
+ Show Spoiler +
1) Warp in HT's as effective reinforcements to my army in the middle of a battle
2) Warp in HT's from a proxy pylon/ warp prism to immediatly storm an opponent's worker line
3) Warp in the minimal number of HT's after already assessing a battle situation (there just won't be time)
4) Warp in HT's to storm a harrass at an undefended expo
The only problem I see that isn't easily circumvented is being unable to warp in HT's to storm a mineral line. Now, I'll have to actually load HT's into a warp prism, which greatly increases the consequences of having a warp prism destroyed (200 minerals lost vs 200 minerals + 3 HT's).
Overall, while the change is frustrating, I agree with it. I think it makes the game a little more fair, and I don't see it really eliminating an entire tech tree.
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On March 03 2011 08:43 Barca wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 08:24 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 03 2011 08:15 Barca wrote:On March 03 2011 06:39 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 02 2011 04:39 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:34 Aesop wrote:On March 02 2011 04:30 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:26 Barca wrote:
You say that the production of the previous unit is part of the production time of the current unit is ridiculous, but then you go on to say that High Templars only take 5 seconds to warp in, then the Warpgate is "occupied" for 45 seconds. Your first statement allows you to ignore the Warpgate cooldown for the rest of your argument, and that is something that cannot be ignored.
High Templars "occupy" your production buildings for 50 seconds. If I only have 1 gateway and I warp in a High Templar, I cannot warp in anything else during that span of 50 seconds. If a Terran player has 1 Barracks, he can only make 1 Ghost, so that Ghost will occupy that Barracks for 45 seconds.
You cannot ignore the cooldown of the previous unit. This is the case because Protoss production is backwards - unit first, cooldown after. The Warpgate mechanic forces you to wait for the first unit to finish before you get the second unit. So even though you say counting the previous units production cycle is ridiculous, it is accurate in determining the ability for a Protoss to produce units since the means at which Protoss get units is backwards. Exactly. His argument would only hold water if that HT was the first and only unit built out of that warpgate. He ignores the fact that, after being used as a gateway, the warpgate has already gone through several warp gate cycles before it got to the HT, and the only difference that it made was at around 6 minutes where, if timed properly, a unit finished out of the gate, the gate xformed to warpgate, and another unit was made right there. That is the only point in time where the front-loaded mechanic of the warpgate makes a difference, not 5 minutes later in the game when HT are available with the amulet upgrade. I think the OPs argument is about the "reaction time" you have between "realizing you need spellcasters" and actually "having them available with 75 energy". So assuming your warpgate cooldown is anywhere between ready and just spent, you have between 5 and 50 seconds to react. That gives an average reaction time of 27.5 seconds. With the 44.5 seconds to regenerate added to it, the "average templar reaction time" would be 72 seconds instead of ~50 for the other casters. Please forgive me, I don't understand your direction... 72 seconds for HT compared to ~50 for the others looks like a disadvantage to me, and when does a person "realize they need spellcasters" as opposed to just build them? All... the... fucking... time... are you kidding? HT you build as you need. Ghosts, you produce too many and you've fucked up because you have less marauders and spent 150/150 on a unit that is essentially USELESS (as after the EMP's go off, ghosts are a much less than ideal fighting unit, unlike HT whereas you can storm again, and again, and again with the more you have), don't build enough and you're going to get rolled. Same shit with infestors. Too many and you're going to get rolled. With ghosts, let's say you do build the optimal amount, and they get feedbacked... FUCK go back to your barracks and cancel the marauders building and try to get out a ghost. When you're toss? Oh, lemme chrono boost mah warpgates and insta-warp in some HT right where I need them on the battlefield, while warping my existing HT into archons. I'd be fine with amulet if HT weren't able to be warped in and had to be produced from the gateway instead. Here's the main flaw with the production time thing you guys keep speaking of. The ONLY situation where it's equal is when you realize you need an HT, and you JUST warped in something else. In all other situations, the time at which you can acquire your HT is significantly less. As with my example above, if I need ghosts in a situation and don't have them, I have to go to my rax, see a marauder half built, CANCEL it, then start building the ghost from scratch, causing massive inefficiencies from my barracks production. With an HT, if you had warped in a stalker, and the cooldown is half done, you only half to wait half a cooldown for the stalker, and zero inefficiency is caused. You get the HT out much quicker than I can get out my ghost. Considering if you really need the HT, you can chronoboost it to get it out even faster by reducing the 50% remaining cooldown, then you can warp the HT in anywhere you want, you're getting that HT INSANELY fast. If I don't want to have inefficiency as Terran, I have to let my marauder finish, then build the ghost after, delaying it even further, valuable time I don't have. On March 03 2011 04:55 tehemperorer wrote:On March 03 2011 04:45 Reptilia wrote:
i dont understund.
Do protoss users think the amulet was balanced (pre 1.3)?
i mean how op is having a huge bio and beating ur huge army of gateway+collossus and the protoss just warps a couple ht and instantly destroy your army even tho u won a huge army battle.
Thats nonsense
However, maybe an upgrade that gives 13 extra starting energy would be good If I have two tier 3 tech paths, why are you still on 1.5? That's nonsense... Would that work in War3? Switch to mech and stop complaining about how your tier 1.5 melts to a more expensive and time consuming tier 3 tech You can always tell extremely mediocre Protoss players when they give this response. I hope you realize that they said something similar to this on State of the Game awhile back. So apparently Nony and iNcontrol are extremely mediocre too, eh? I think you missed the point anyways. Bio Ball > Gateway units at Tier 1. Bio Ball >>> Gateway units at Tier 2. Gateway units > Bio Ball at Tier 3. Ever wonder why Zerg players don't complain about Temps being imbalanced against Zerglings? Because they're man enough to stop making Tier 1 units. Oh, and Templars demolish Zerglings. Maybe if Blizzard would nerf Marines Terrans would stop falling back on them like a crutch and start playing the game. I'm so fed up with Terrans complaining about storm; you have control of the entire damn game until 15 minutes. The Protoss must play reactionary, and many Protosses lose in these first 15 minutes to stupid Terran pushes. Then after 15 minutes YOU must play reactionary and the Protoss has the advantage and Terran players whine and whine and whine. Even though, of course, since the Terran player has the immediate advantage, the game rarely lasts longer than 15 minutes. Ridiculous. You Terrans are so spoiled. Learn to go mech, it's becoming more and more viable and storm is barely effective against it. Hell, go ghost/mech so you can still use your barracks from all your early bio. Early bio pressure into FE into ghost/mech? There you go. Zerg players don't complain as much about HT because they're complaining about Voidray Colossus, lmao. If you also cannot see the difference between Zerglings, an extremely fast unit that engages in melee combat and thus is always moving out of the storms, and when they are stationary that means you're most likely storming some of your own units as well, you're ridiculous. Cool that you're sick of Terran players complaining about storm, and then come back with an irrelevant point about Terran early game. Nice job. I wasn't aware we were discussing overall balance of the matchup. Oh, that's right, we aren't. What's more ridiculous is that you are saying I'm some spoiled Terran, while I hovered around rank ~120-150 constantly with Zerg in the Top 200 for the first 4 months of the game, then when I played Terran for the recent 3, I only hovered around ~300-350. And in case you were wondering why the switch occurred, I switched the day Patch 1.2 came out and buffed Zerg. But no no, keep coming with irrelevant, moronic accusations. Last, LOL another random poster ending their post with "go mech." LOLOL. Yup, you are correct on all accounts. We should be looking at storm alone, not the matchup as a whole, because the strength of storm does not affect the balance of the matchup >.< Is this your reasoning? I hope not. You still have yet to play Protoss. I don't care if you're IdrA, I still wouldn't listen to your opinion on ZvP because IdrA does not play Protoss. I play Protoss and Terran and at least that means I can look at the topic objectively while you come in with a personal bias. Another question; stimmed marines aren't an extremely fast unit? LOLOL kk
Your responses... mindblowing ignorance... hard to comprehend.
1) The counterargument consisted of the premise "Terran too strong early game, thus Toss needs to be too strong lategame." My God. Awful argument. Do you know what would be better? Terran too strong early game, matchup is balanced lategame! Because guess what, it would be at least more balanced, and then they could work on fixing whatever supposedly gives Terran a superior advantage in the early game. Same vice versa, if they could make TvP equal early-midgame, even if P still dominates lategame, it's still better than what it is now. The argument about Terran early game concerning what I was talking about is so mindblowing stupid I'm still having trouble dealing with it.
2) If you can't listen to other players simply because they play a single race then you're ridiculously stupid. Is TLO your only source of legit advice? But wait, he plays random, which gives you an early game advantage because of having to scout early, so the other person should DEFINITELY PWN LATEGAME according to your logic, am I right? Not to mention the fact I can play Protoss anyways and easily stomp the lower Masters league players sub300 points, except PvP (yes, I'm aware that doesn't eliminate the bias situation, it just shows an overall higher understanding of the game).
3) Compared to speedlings, you're right stimmed marines aren't very fast. You're referring to a unit that has near none of the qualities I mentioned. Marines are not constantly moving. They stop to shoot. That is different than a speedling. While they thus have a meager 10 more HP than their Zergling companion in this situation, they are much less likely to survive because they were stationary at the time. Zerglings are also immensely cheaper and thus it's a lot less of a deal to lose them. LOLOL kk
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On March 03 2011 08:46 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 08:37 tehemperorer wrote:On March 03 2011 08:29 Kazang wrote:On March 03 2011 08:10 da_head wrote:On March 03 2011 08:06 Kazang wrote:
I don't get why this is even a discussion, the OP points out the reason why Blizzard has decided to remove it.
It doesn't really matter if poeple think it's the wrong decision based on how much HT are used. The logic in the OP that is quite obviously the reasoning behind the change, and cannot be argued with. If HT are under or overused is irrelevant to the fact that Blizzard has decided(and logically so) that KA was "imbalanced" when it came to comparison with what the other 2 races have.
The other thing is that from the moment you decide to make a HT to when it can storm (45 seconds) is still less with 1.3 than what it was in BW (50 seconds build time and 20 ish seconds to get enough energy to storm) and HT did not have any abilty they could use as soon as they were availble in BW they were actually useless until 70 seconds after a player decided to make one, unless morphed into a archon.
HT were not a useless unit in BW just because you couldn't warp them in anywhere on the map ready to storm instantly.
Suddenly in SC2 they are going to be useless and never used? Please......
Removing KA should be seen as a bug fix more than anything else, it was/is a oversight in design and a unitended result of the warpgate mechanic. Since when has every decision blizzard made been correct? Also are you forgetting how much better storm was in bw? How about how hard/infrequently emp was used? (until later game) Or how there was no collosus to fall back on (as a superior choice)? No i'm pointing out that having to wait to get energy to storm isn't the end of the world. And that people can cry all they want but at the end of the day it's not going to make much difference as it's Blizzards choice, and really is quite logical. Have some faith in what they what they are doing, becasue they have done a amazing job so far. If you really want to a make a difference, go play on the PTR and use HT, give them real play testing to base their changes on. I don't see how having an alterantive to HT is a bad thing either, HT do more than just aoe damage. Feedback is one of the best abilities in the game against terran armies No, psionic storm is. Feedback used to be decent until the thor's energy bars were removed, but that was totally necessary. Waiting for energy is what P players always do with HT, and HT are the alternative to colossi, not the other way around. The problem is removing the KA where warping in HT for instant storms either serve as an efficient and rapid way to deal with threats, and for some degree of harassment. Again, a single drop needs about 16-18 supply to counter it. If you bring less, you either run the risk of losing everything and not culling the threat, or you've traded equal supply but not equal resources to fight it off. The answer to the ease and efficiency in which Terrans can do medivac drops without any real danger (trading units with P is favorable to Terran) is HT with KA, where there now lies a chance of losing everything and gaining nothing on the drop. HT and KA actually put a risk into dropping, where there wasn't one before that upgrade finishes. I see absolutely no reasoning why lategame, where P has advantages on both T/Z clearly, that P should be able to have no problem in handling drops. There is nothing to keep you from leaving a single HT in each base with a few photon cannons (as I said, since you're already at such an advantage lategame, this is only lessening that overpowering force). In BW it was common to have 2 HT at every expo for this reasoning, and they couldn't even warp them in, they had to move them there. And late-late game, they'd even leave multiple reavers at every expo with HT's. Don't try to use the "but we need those HT in the fights!" argument because that's ridiculous when you're army is already rolling players. Zerg already has their supply in queens at all their bases, and Terran had to deal with leaving shit at their base all the time. You also can reinforce directly on the battlefield. Being able to be able to immediately handedly react to any drop in a lategame scenario isn't even a good thing in an RTS, besides the fact you can still warp in HT anyways to feedback medivacs with energy, or you can warpin chargelots lol. Why again, can you not just warpin 4 speedlots and an HT, feedback the medivac so it can't heal, and beat the drop no problem that way?
This is the best argument for the removal of KA I have read so far, and it makes sense and really can't be argued. From this perspective it comes down to how Blizzard wants the PvT matchup to go.
That being said, my opinion is that the removal of KA makes the errors that Protoss make in the course of a game that includes HT tech more expensive and costly compared to the level of risk the Terran player encounters in executing their harassment. My question is why should the Terran player have a low risk/high reward situation against a Protoss player that techs to HT?
I want to stress that given the right conditions, Terran players can get away with a hell of a lot more than the Protoss player can in PvT, where those conditions are easier met by the Terran player than the Protoss player.
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On March 03 2011 08:52 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 08:41 tehemperorer wrote:On March 03 2011 08:35 Sek-Kuar wrote:On March 03 2011 08:15 tehemperorer wrote:On March 03 2011 08:06 Kazang wrote:
I don't get why this is even a discussion, the OP points out the reason why Blizzard has decided to remove it.
Removing KA should be seen as a bug fix more than anything else, it was/is a oversight in design and a unitended result of the warpgate mechanic. 1. Because the OPs logic is flawed, read the posts. 2. That last paragraph is insulting to players who have torn their hair out trying to find efficient unit compositions that handle super common bio. 3. I will say it again because I know you're not reading all this: The OP's post fails to account for so many things that its conclusion is too simple in relation to the scope of the actual issue. You know, you spend so much time commenting everything that my logic is flawed, but you have never said single argument other than: 1) Theorycrafting in general 2) Theorycrafting about races you dont play 3) Theorycrafting how hard your race is I simply suggest you to join chat channel "Theorycrafting for Bronze Masters" I heard they are live on every realm. If I say that 49,5 seconds is closer to 45 seconds rather than 5 seconds to 45 seconds, its either true or prove Im wrong. But trying to imply that I said something I didnt to use it as argument against comparing two numbers is just stupid, and you better join that chat channel I suggested. I've listed many arguments, and I am a 2900 Masters player that has used HT in place of Colossi since August of 2010. I know the matchup, and I know enough to tell you that your logic is flawed. AGAIN, your analysis is so reduced in scope and comes to a conclusion completely ignorant of the other mitigating factors in the matchup. My analysis is 100% correct because all I said was that 45, 50 and 49,5 are more similar numbers than 45, 50 and 5. Because for some stupid reason all Protoss believe than HTs takes 50 seconds to build, so removing amulet is unfair. You have come here and started theorycrafting about how is everything different or whatever. Since the entire point of this thread was to explain gaining energy, and how does some mechanics affect it, I cant really see how could I possible be wrong unless 5 is greater number than 50, which I frankly believe we could finally agree is not true.
Your analysis is 100% correct, yes, and I am not insulting your intelligence; no doubt you spent a lot of time on it and are most likely proud of the results. My problem is the scope of analysis that you did and the conclusions you derived from it. I have played over 1800 league games (excluding custom and other accounts) since beta, and if I am theorycrafting, I am doing it with special care taken to stay true to what I know in the games I've played at what used to be considered a high level. My grievance is that you made a comparison between 3 choice casters (no mention of the regen rates and build times of the sentry, raven, banshee, phoenix, queen, mothership, medivac, or battlecruiser) and excluded a lot of important factors that provide evidence for the reason KA was in the game to begin with.
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I definitely agree with this change, making the HT a choice you need to make beforehand is the correct way it should be.
The only flaw is that it removes warping in HT to storm worker lines, discouraging harass, as you now need to load up the HTs and risk them, possibly leading to a decline in harass based protoss play.
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On March 03 2011 08:59 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 08:46 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 03 2011 08:37 tehemperorer wrote:On March 03 2011 08:29 Kazang wrote:On March 03 2011 08:10 da_head wrote:On March 03 2011 08:06 Kazang wrote:
I don't get why this is even a discussion, the OP points out the reason why Blizzard has decided to remove it.
It doesn't really matter if poeple think it's the wrong decision based on how much HT are used. The logic in the OP that is quite obviously the reasoning behind the change, and cannot be argued with. If HT are under or overused is irrelevant to the fact that Blizzard has decided(and logically so) that KA was "imbalanced" when it came to comparison with what the other 2 races have.
The other thing is that from the moment you decide to make a HT to when it can storm (45 seconds) is still less with 1.3 than what it was in BW (50 seconds build time and 20 ish seconds to get enough energy to storm) and HT did not have any abilty they could use as soon as they were availble in BW they were actually useless until 70 seconds after a player decided to make one, unless morphed into a archon.
HT were not a useless unit in BW just because you couldn't warp them in anywhere on the map ready to storm instantly.
Suddenly in SC2 they are going to be useless and never used? Please......
Removing KA should be seen as a bug fix more than anything else, it was/is a oversight in design and a unitended result of the warpgate mechanic. Since when has every decision blizzard made been correct? Also are you forgetting how much better storm was in bw? How about how hard/infrequently emp was used? (until later game) Or how there was no collosus to fall back on (as a superior choice)? No i'm pointing out that having to wait to get energy to storm isn't the end of the world. And that people can cry all they want but at the end of the day it's not going to make much difference as it's Blizzards choice, and really is quite logical. Have some faith in what they what they are doing, becasue they have done a amazing job so far. If you really want to a make a difference, go play on the PTR and use HT, give them real play testing to base their changes on. I don't see how having an alterantive to HT is a bad thing either, HT do more than just aoe damage. Feedback is one of the best abilities in the game against terran armies No, psionic storm is. Feedback used to be decent until the thor's energy bars were removed, but that was totally necessary. Waiting for energy is what P players always do with HT, and HT are the alternative to colossi, not the other way around. The problem is removing the KA where warping in HT for instant storms either serve as an efficient and rapid way to deal with threats, and for some degree of harassment. Again, a single drop needs about 16-18 supply to counter it. If you bring less, you either run the risk of losing everything and not culling the threat, or you've traded equal supply but not equal resources to fight it off. The answer to the ease and efficiency in which Terrans can do medivac drops without any real danger (trading units with P is favorable to Terran) is HT with KA, where there now lies a chance of losing everything and gaining nothing on the drop. HT and KA actually put a risk into dropping, where there wasn't one before that upgrade finishes. I see absolutely no reasoning why lategame, where P has advantages on both T/Z clearly, that P should be able to have no problem in handling drops. There is nothing to keep you from leaving a single HT in each base with a few photon cannons (as I said, since you're already at such an advantage lategame, this is only lessening that overpowering force). In BW it was common to have 2 HT at every expo for this reasoning, and they couldn't even warp them in, they had to move them there. And late-late game, they'd even leave multiple reavers at every expo with HT's. Don't try to use the "but we need those HT in the fights!" argument because that's ridiculous when you're army is already rolling players. Zerg already has their supply in queens at all their bases, and Terran had to deal with leaving shit at their base all the time. You also can reinforce directly on the battlefield. Being able to be able to immediately handedly react to any drop in a lategame scenario isn't even a good thing in an RTS, besides the fact you can still warp in HT anyways to feedback medivacs with energy, or you can warpin chargelots lol. Why again, can you not just warpin 4 speedlots and an HT, feedback the medivac so it can't heal, and beat the drop no problem that way? This is the best argument for the removal of KA I have read so far, and it makes sense and really can't be argued. From this perspective it comes down to how Blizzard wants the PvT matchup to go. That being said, my opinion is that the removal of KA makes the errors that Protoss make in the course of a game that includes HT tech more expensive and costly compared to the level of risk the Terran player encounters in executing their harassment. My question is why should the Terran player have a low risk/high reward situation against a Protoss player that techs to HT? I want to stress that given the right conditions, Terran players can get away with a hell of a lot more than the Protoss player can in PvT, where those conditions are easier met by the Terran player than the Protoss player.
By all means, I am merely arguing against the ability of what I see as "on demand storms." I would be more than content, as I've argued for these changes back in November during the first PTR, that it should be changed to...
- Templar Archives 100/150 (from 150/200)
- Psionic Storm Research Cost 150/150 (from 200/200)
- Khadarian Amulet Research Cost reduced to 100/100 (from 150/150), gives +15 energy (from +25)
Consequently, this would shorten the timing window to actually get Templar, while not permanently increasing their effectiveness for the duration of the game after the upgrade is researched. In my opinion, Blizzard needs less super expensive upgrades that permanently upgrade something and should just instead make it more accessible but not as potent.
+ Show Spoiler +
Not going to derail the topic, but I also wanted them to experiment with something like taking away Thermal Lances, but instead having some sort of quirky "Robo Range" upgrade (they'd need a better name), that cost 100/100 and increased both Immortal and Colossus range by 1. At the same time, they'd reduce the buildtime/cost of the Robo Support, so that you could get the Colossus quicker, but they'd overall be weaker for the rest of the game. Midgame would be stronger however as you can get the colossus quicker (cheaper support/build time and still have one more range than when they first come out). Could be accompanied by a reduction in viking range by one, etc. etc. etc.
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First of all Fungal Grwoth AND EMP Round doesn't require an upgrade like Psi-Storm does, that point you totally ignored this would be an additional xx seconds
Second , due to the face that HT's are mostly used in PvT than in PvZ it's fact that T's are complaining about that they have no chances in late game vs P , but WHY?
Of course they don't after 22-25 minutes of nerv-wracking action (if the P survives this long)
he finally has an Army which is able to beat terran's tier 1 units with collosi storm stalker/ff's and so on!
Everyone is like P < T Early , and P> T late!
But i ask you , wouldn't be the game more imbalanced if it was not that Cause?
It's just absolutely normal to beat lower tech unit's liek marines/marauder with collosi and ht's!
And now with the HT nerf the late game will be so much harder vs T...!
If a Terran gets off ONE good EMP the only way to still have chances in the Fight is to warp in new ht's and hoping that the t doesn't focus them , but if the Toss get's off 1 good storm (which still requires an upgrade.. ) the game is still on and it just did '' a little dmg ''
but as toss u rely on your ht's and that's why I say the game will be more broke , when they really remove that Khaydarian Amulet
Sorry for my bad english skills 
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On March 03 2011 03:02 Roeder wrote:
Remove Amulet - Ok, make vikings weaker.
nerf vikings, buff corrupters. That's all they really need to do to make colossi balanced.
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On March 03 2011 09:13 SpaNkinG wrote:First of all Fungal Grwoth AND EMP Round doesn't require an upgrade like Psi-Storm does, that point you totally ignored this would be an additional xx seconds Second , due to the face that HT's are mostly used in PvT than in PvZ it's fact that T's are complaining about that they have no chances in late game vs P , but WHY? Of course they don't after 22-25 minutes of nerv-wracking action (if the P survives this long) he finally has an Army which is able to beat terran's tier 1 units with collosi storm stalker/ff's and so on! Everyone is like P < T Early , and P> T late! But i ask you , wouldn't be the game more imbalanced if it was not that Cause? It's just absolutely normal to beat lower tech unit's liek marines/marauder with collosi and ht's! And now with the HT nerf the late game will be so much harder vs T...! If a Terran gets off ONE good EMP the only way to still have chances in the Fight is to warp in new ht's and hoping that the t doesn't focus them , but if the Toss get's off 1 good storm (which still requires an upgrade.. ) the game is still on and it just did '' a little dmg '' but as toss u rely on your ht's and that's why I say the game will be more broke , when they really remove that Khaydarian Amulet Sorry for my bad english skills
Play better. Most P's nowadays are splitting their templars into 2-3 groups that I encounter on ladder, Rarely do I have an opportunity to EMP all templars with one HT.
I have no idea how in the world you could just say if Toss gets off 1 storm it did "a little dmg"
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On March 03 2011 09:07 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 08:52 Sek-Kuar wrote:On March 03 2011 08:41 tehemperorer wrote:On March 03 2011 08:35 Sek-Kuar wrote:On March 03 2011 08:15 tehemperorer wrote:On March 03 2011 08:06 Kazang wrote:
I don't get why this is even a discussion, the OP points out the reason why Blizzard has decided to remove it.
Removing KA should be seen as a bug fix more than anything else, it was/is a oversight in design and a unitended result of the warpgate mechanic. 1. Because the OPs logic is flawed, read the posts. 2. That last paragraph is insulting to players who have torn their hair out trying to find efficient unit compositions that handle super common bio. 3. I will say it again because I know you're not reading all this: The OP's post fails to account for so many things that its conclusion is too simple in relation to the scope of the actual issue. You know, you spend so much time commenting everything that my logic is flawed, but you have never said single argument other than: 1) Theorycrafting in general 2) Theorycrafting about races you dont play 3) Theorycrafting how hard your race is I simply suggest you to join chat channel "Theorycrafting for Bronze Masters" I heard they are live on every realm. If I say that 49,5 seconds is closer to 45 seconds rather than 5 seconds to 45 seconds, its either true or prove Im wrong. But trying to imply that I said something I didnt to use it as argument against comparing two numbers is just stupid, and you better join that chat channel I suggested. I've listed many arguments, and I am a 2900 Masters player that has used HT in place of Colossi since August of 2010. I know the matchup, and I know enough to tell you that your logic is flawed. AGAIN, your analysis is so reduced in scope and comes to a conclusion completely ignorant of the other mitigating factors in the matchup. My analysis is 100% correct because all I said was that 45, 50 and 49,5 are more similar numbers than 45, 50 and 5. Because for some stupid reason all Protoss believe than HTs takes 50 seconds to build, so removing amulet is unfair. You have come here and started theorycrafting about how is everything different or whatever. Since the entire point of this thread was to explain gaining energy, and how does some mechanics affect it, I cant really see how could I possible be wrong unless 5 is greater number than 50, which I frankly believe we could finally agree is not true. Your analysis is 100% correct, yes, and I am not insulting your intelligence; no doubt you spent a lot of time on it and are most likely proud of the results. My problem is the scope of analysis that you did and the conclusions you derived from it. I have played over 1800 league games (excluding custom and other accounts) since beta, and if I am theorycrafting, I am doing it with special care taken to stay true to what I know in the games I've played at what used to be considered a high level. My grievance is that you made a comparison between 3 choice casters (no mention of the regen rates and build times of the sentry, raven, banshee, phoenix, queen, mothership, medivac, or battlecruiser) and excluded a lot of important factors that provide evidence for the reason KA was in the game to begin with.
The only conclusion I made was that it is fair to remove KA because now Protoss will have to think almost as much about using their specialist as other races have to.
And I have clearly stated that I have no idea if that means balancing game, but it is simply right decision to do.
If correct decisions cause imbalance, its still right to do them and rebalance game (as I also said in OP) around them, rather than balancing game around stupid and unfair mechanics.
Everything else you are implying I said is not true, because I said no more. And I really do believe that this is right decision to do whether it causes more imbalance or not.
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On March 03 2011 09:18 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 09:13 SpaNkinG wrote:First of all Fungal Grwoth AND EMP Round doesn't require an upgrade like Psi-Storm does, that point you totally ignored this would be an additional xx seconds Second , due to the face that HT's are mostly used in PvT than in PvZ it's fact that T's are complaining about that they have no chances in late game vs P , but WHY? Of course they don't after 22-25 minutes of nerv-wracking action (if the P survives this long) he finally has an Army which is able to beat terran's tier 1 units with collosi storm stalker/ff's and so on! Everyone is like P < T Early , and P> T late! But i ask you , wouldn't be the game more imbalanced if it was not that Cause? It's just absolutely normal to beat lower tech unit's liek marines/marauder with collosi and ht's! And now with the HT nerf the late game will be so much harder vs T...! If a Terran gets off ONE good EMP the only way to still have chances in the Fight is to warp in new ht's and hoping that the t doesn't focus them , but if the Toss get's off 1 good storm (which still requires an upgrade.. ) the game is still on and it just did '' a little dmg '' but as toss u rely on your ht's and that's why I say the game will be more broke , when they really remove that Khaydarian Amulet Sorry for my bad english skills Play better. Most P's nowadays are splitting their templars into 2-3 groups that I encounter on ladder, Rarely do I have an opportunity to EMP all templars with one HT. I have no idea how in the world you could just say if Toss gets off 1 storm it did "a little dmg"
considering you can move out of it and you probably have mostly marauders anyway, one storm is really not all that damaging. i really wish people could make less biased posts.
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On March 03 2011 09:12 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 08:59 tehemperorer wrote:On March 03 2011 08:46 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 03 2011 08:37 tehemperorer wrote:On March 03 2011 08:29 Kazang wrote:On March 03 2011 08:10 da_head wrote:On March 03 2011 08:06 Kazang wrote:
I don't get why this is even a discussion, the OP points out the reason why Blizzard has decided to remove it.
It doesn't really matter if poeple think it's the wrong decision based on how much HT are used. The logic in the OP that is quite obviously the reasoning behind the change, and cannot be argued with. If HT are under or overused is irrelevant to the fact that Blizzard has decided(and logically so) that KA was "imbalanced" when it came to comparison with what the other 2 races have.
The other thing is that from the moment you decide to make a HT to when it can storm (45 seconds) is still less with 1.3 than what it was in BW (50 seconds build time and 20 ish seconds to get enough energy to storm) and HT did not have any abilty they could use as soon as they were availble in BW they were actually useless until 70 seconds after a player decided to make one, unless morphed into a archon.
HT were not a useless unit in BW just because you couldn't warp them in anywhere on the map ready to storm instantly.
Suddenly in SC2 they are going to be useless and never used? Please......
Removing KA should be seen as a bug fix more than anything else, it was/is a oversight in design and a unitended result of the warpgate mechanic. Since when has every decision blizzard made been correct? Also are you forgetting how much better storm was in bw? How about how hard/infrequently emp was used? (until later game) Or how there was no collosus to fall back on (as a superior choice)? No i'm pointing out that having to wait to get energy to storm isn't the end of the world. And that people can cry all they want but at the end of the day it's not going to make much difference as it's Blizzards choice, and really is quite logical. Have some faith in what they what they are doing, becasue they have done a amazing job so far. If you really want to a make a difference, go play on the PTR and use HT, give them real play testing to base their changes on. I don't see how having an alterantive to HT is a bad thing either, HT do more than just aoe damage. Feedback is one of the best abilities in the game against terran armies No, psionic storm is. Feedback used to be decent until the thor's energy bars were removed, but that was totally necessary. Waiting for energy is what P players always do with HT, and HT are the alternative to colossi, not the other way around. The problem is removing the KA where warping in HT for instant storms either serve as an efficient and rapid way to deal with threats, and for some degree of harassment. Again, a single drop needs about 16-18 supply to counter it. If you bring less, you either run the risk of losing everything and not culling the threat, or you've traded equal supply but not equal resources to fight it off. The answer to the ease and efficiency in which Terrans can do medivac drops without any real danger (trading units with P is favorable to Terran) is HT with KA, where there now lies a chance of losing everything and gaining nothing on the drop. HT and KA actually put a risk into dropping, where there wasn't one before that upgrade finishes. I see absolutely no reasoning why lategame, where P has advantages on both T/Z clearly, that P should be able to have no problem in handling drops. There is nothing to keep you from leaving a single HT in each base with a few photon cannons (as I said, since you're already at such an advantage lategame, this is only lessening that overpowering force). In BW it was common to have 2 HT at every expo for this reasoning, and they couldn't even warp them in, they had to move them there. And late-late game, they'd even leave multiple reavers at every expo with HT's. Don't try to use the "but we need those HT in the fights!" argument because that's ridiculous when you're army is already rolling players. Zerg already has their supply in queens at all their bases, and Terran had to deal with leaving shit at their base all the time. You also can reinforce directly on the battlefield. Being able to be able to immediately handedly react to any drop in a lategame scenario isn't even a good thing in an RTS, besides the fact you can still warp in HT anyways to feedback medivacs with energy, or you can warpin chargelots lol. Why again, can you not just warpin 4 speedlots and an HT, feedback the medivac so it can't heal, and beat the drop no problem that way? This is the best argument for the removal of KA I have read so far, and it makes sense and really can't be argued. From this perspective it comes down to how Blizzard wants the PvT matchup to go. That being said, my opinion is that the removal of KA makes the errors that Protoss make in the course of a game that includes HT tech more expensive and costly compared to the level of risk the Terran player encounters in executing their harassment. My question is why should the Terran player have a low risk/high reward situation against a Protoss player that techs to HT? I want to stress that given the right conditions, Terran players can get away with a hell of a lot more than the Protoss player can in PvT, where those conditions are easier met by the Terran player than the Protoss player. By all means, I am merely arguing against the ability of what I see as "on demand storms." I would be more than content, as I've argued for these changes back in November during the first PTR, that it should be changed to... - Templar Archives 100/150 (from 150/200) - Psionic Storm Research Cost 150/150 (from 200/200) - Khadarian Amulet Research Cost reduced to 100/100 (from 150/150), gives +15 energy (from +25) Consequently, this would shorten the timing window to actually get Templar, while not permanently increasing their effectiveness for the duration of the game after the upgrade is researched. In my opinion, Blizzard needs less super expensive upgrades that permanently upgrade something and should just instead make it more accessible but not as potent. + Show Spoiler +
Not going to derail the topic, but I also wanted them to experiment with something like taking away Thermal Lances, but instead having some sort of quirky "Robo Range" upgrade (they'd need a better name), that cost 100/100 and increased both Immortal and Colossus range by 1. At the same time, they'd reduce the buildtime/cost of the Robo Support, so that you could get the Colossus quicker, but they'd overall be weaker for the rest of the game. Midgame would be stronger however as you can get the colossus quicker (cheaper support/build time and still have one more range than when they first come out). Could be accompanied by a reduction in viking range by one, etc. etc. etc.
I get it, "on demand storms" are rough for T and they win games. Thank you for your insight and polity, they are much appreciated. My proposal earlier in this thread was to keep the costs the same, but have KA increase energy regeneration rate to a fair value for the HT. What you think?
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That's not a good way to think. This game is a lot more complex than "give each race a melee unit, a range unit, and a spellcaster, and have them all cost the same and take the same time to build".
If you want the spellcasters to all function the same, why don't we make them all cost 100/100, move at the same speed, be able to attack, require the same tech structure....... etc.
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if storm shouldnt be on demand then neither should mules. You should have to wait 50 seconds before it can begin mining.
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On March 03 2011 09:25 rycho wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 09:18 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 03 2011 09:13 SpaNkinG wrote:First of all Fungal Grwoth AND EMP Round doesn't require an upgrade like Psi-Storm does, that point you totally ignored this would be an additional xx seconds Second , due to the face that HT's are mostly used in PvT than in PvZ it's fact that T's are complaining about that they have no chances in late game vs P , but WHY? Of course they don't after 22-25 minutes of nerv-wracking action (if the P survives this long) he finally has an Army which is able to beat terran's tier 1 units with collosi storm stalker/ff's and so on! Everyone is like P < T Early , and P> T late! But i ask you , wouldn't be the game more imbalanced if it was not that Cause? It's just absolutely normal to beat lower tech unit's liek marines/marauder with collosi and ht's! And now with the HT nerf the late game will be so much harder vs T...! If a Terran gets off ONE good EMP the only way to still have chances in the Fight is to warp in new ht's and hoping that the t doesn't focus them , but if the Toss get's off 1 good storm (which still requires an upgrade.. ) the game is still on and it just did '' a little dmg '' but as toss u rely on your ht's and that's why I say the game will be more broke , when they really remove that Khaydarian Amulet Sorry for my bad english skills Play better. Most P's nowadays are splitting their templars into 2-3 groups that I encounter on ladder, Rarely do I have an opportunity to EMP all templars with one HT. I have no idea how in the world you could just say if Toss gets off 1 storm it did "a little dmg" considering you can move out of it and you probably have mostly marauders anyway, one storm is really not all that damaging. i really wish people could make less biased posts.
Less biased posts? Your post just reeked of it, hypocritical much? Not to mention the fact that EMP's are more effective in smaller numbers while Storms are more effective in large numbers. Effectiveness of EMP spikes, and then plateaus almost immediately. Storm jumps (instead of spiking) at a very fast rate, with each consequential storm being still quite effective.
On March 03 2011 09:28 DocM wrote:
if storm shouldnt be on demand then neither should mules. You should have to wait 50 seconds before it can begin mining.
What... in the world... are you talking about. How in the world are mules on demand.
PS. Massive failure on your part to not even recognize you do have to wait to get the total effect of the mule. One of the worst comparisons I've seen thus far and only works against your argument.
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EPT
