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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
This isn't really the place to discuss mandatory upgrades, although I would admit there are quite a few of them.
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On March 03 2011 10:52 jaiiiii wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 08:47 Ratel wrote:On March 03 2011 08:09 jaiiiii wrote:
Reading this thread is giving me a major headache.
For all you protoss players that are arguing that the only effective way to deal with drops is with HT...grow a pair. seriously. unless terran is doom dropping you there is no excuse for not being able to warp in a few extra units to deal with the drop. And for all of you who are sitting around whining that to put a cannon down is a huge investment and its not worth it...stop complaining. It's not like terran presses "T" and insta kills the cannon, and every single probe on ur mineral line. the cannon is there to buy you time to get ur probes out/warp stuff in/pull stuff back etc. You aren't even allowed to argue about the whole "oh but a cannon is 100+150" cause dont be silly, you have pylons all over the place.
For all you terrans out there who are thinking "oh man i can't drop this toss currently bc he can warp in hts and save the day"...learn to dodge. seriously. And for those terrans among you who are actually getting warp prism harassed by ht...there's really no excuse. The HT is an absurdly slow unit with a casting range that means you WILL see it on ur minimap, and if you dont react, I dont even know what to say.
There are valid arguments to both sides: however, they're completely overshadowed by the sheer amount of idiocy posted by 500 other people who love to theorycraft.
-terrans want protoss to be punished for an undefended base. FAIR ENOUGH. everyone should be punished for that. and in the current situation, we are...for 5 seconds (assuming at least 1 wg is on cooldown). After that point, in the current situation toss will warp in 1 or 2 ht and use his storms (apparently this is enough to scare off whatever terran units are there).
-protoss are arguing that with this nerf, HT is a walking deadweight, a 50/150 resource sink that does nothing for an additional 45 seconds. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. There is no point arguing this. If we're going to compare casters..The second u spawn a ghost, it can shoot at something. It can cloak and go run around being a general nuisance(albeit with an upgrade). It can go scout. Basically, it can be useful. If there were no energy upgrade for ghosts IT WOULD NOT MATTER. The ghost could still retain some of its use. I'm not going to argue past that, and if you think that I'm incorrect, I cannot help you. If you can find useful things to do with an HT for 45 seconds, you are the second coming of our lord and savior. ( I actually find this to be one of the most annoying things. That terrans refuse to incorporate ghosts into their standard bioball against toss, the effectiveness of emp is absolutely absurd and most toss will simply ignore the ghost in a big fight. )
I'm not sure if i've stated this, but im a protoss player. I think the nerf is absolutely ridiculous, removal of KA will mess everything up. Will lead to more stagnant robo/stargate play, both of which are too easily countered. For all of you terran who sits here thinking "omgod protoss t1 is fine these guys are all nubs" just go play a few games as protoss.
Other things I believe
Protoss side:the HT needs a cooldown on it's ability when just spawning. Leave the upgrade in, etc. Personally, I believe the current cost to make HT's so lethal is completely justified, seeing as how they wipe the floor with bio. Nothing wrong with adding a 5-10 second delay on storm's ability to be cast.
Terran side: you guys need to start exploring alternative paths. There is not a single terran that I have faced who does not complain "BLAH BLAH BLAH MECH SUCKS AGAINST TOSS BLAH BLAH BLAH". I feel pretty confident in my ability to say that about 90% of you haven't even tried it. In fact, I'll go so far as to say 95% of you haven't tried it. 5% don't want to, the other 90% are the ultimate theorycrafters of lore. Mech is absolutely beastly against Toss, if executed correctly. This game is not BW. You don't go pure mech. SO WHAT. you have the most cost effective t1 army in the game, throw in a little mech and sacrifice some of your mobility to up your army damage output. Not like protoss players are sitting here thinking "its ok i can run into this siege line right here".
Overall: Everone on this forum needs to grow up. Seriously. I swear to god the first day I started lurking on TL i thought to myself "wow, what an awesome place where educated people come to discuss things in a civil manner." Then all the cracks showed through and I realized that either A) you're all trolling me or B) you all don't actually own sc2 and you're just playing the game out in your heads. Just go play the game, seriously. this is the most ignorant and weak argument i have seen in all "amulet is being removed" threads your argument about "do something with your ht while you are waiting" is the stupidest thing i heard hts unlike ghosts are 10 times slower, they cant attack,and all they can do is cast 1 feedback once they are spawned before being able to do storm Apparently you can't read and analyze a statement correctly, i clearly said " If you can find useful things to do with an HT for 45 seconds, you are the second coming of our lord and savior.". Nowhere in there did I argue that protoss should be finding something to do with their HT's while waiting for them to save up energy. Maybe you should double check that you read correctly before coming up with some rebuttal.
i guess i misunderstood you
i take my words back
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On March 03 2011 11:45 sabres wrote:
HT
Gateway 150/0
Twilight Council 150/100
Templar Archives 150/200
Psi Storm 200/200
Khaydarin Amulet 150/150
High Templar 50/150
Total-850/800
For how much more I'm spending my HT should be better than these other units so stop comparing them
You forgot cyber core. Which makes the total count an even 1000 minerals
But yes I agree the time and resources it takes to create high templer justifies their ability to crush a TIER ONE push.
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You forgot cyber core. Which makes the total count an even 1000 minerals
Thanks, also forgot warpgate research. It's now 1050/850
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On March 03 2011 11:16 Barca wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 08:57 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 03 2011 08:43 Barca wrote:On March 03 2011 08:24 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 03 2011 08:15 Barca wrote:On March 03 2011 06:39 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 02 2011 04:39 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:34 Aesop wrote:On March 02 2011 04:30 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:26 Barca wrote:
You say that the production of the previous unit is part of the production time of the current unit is ridiculous, but then you go on to say that High Templars only take 5 seconds to warp in, then the Warpgate is "occupied" for 45 seconds. Your first statement allows you to ignore the Warpgate cooldown for the rest of your argument, and that is something that cannot be ignored.
High Templars "occupy" your production buildings for 50 seconds. If I only have 1 gateway and I warp in a High Templar, I cannot warp in anything else during that span of 50 seconds. If a Terran player has 1 Barracks, he can only make 1 Ghost, so that Ghost will occupy that Barracks for 45 seconds.
You cannot ignore the cooldown of the previous unit. This is the case because Protoss production is backwards - unit first, cooldown after. The Warpgate mechanic forces you to wait for the first unit to finish before you get the second unit. So even though you say counting the previous units production cycle is ridiculous, it is accurate in determining the ability for a Protoss to produce units since the means at which Protoss get units is backwards. Exactly. His argument would only hold water if that HT was the first and only unit built out of that warpgate. He ignores the fact that, after being used as a gateway, the warpgate has already gone through several warp gate cycles before it got to the HT, and the only difference that it made was at around 6 minutes where, if timed properly, a unit finished out of the gate, the gate xformed to warpgate, and another unit was made right there. That is the only point in time where the front-loaded mechanic of the warpgate makes a difference, not 5 minutes later in the game when HT are available with the amulet upgrade. I think the OPs argument is about the "reaction time" you have between "realizing you need spellcasters" and actually "having them available with 75 energy". So assuming your warpgate cooldown is anywhere between ready and just spent, you have between 5 and 50 seconds to react. That gives an average reaction time of 27.5 seconds. With the 44.5 seconds to regenerate added to it, the "average templar reaction time" would be 72 seconds instead of ~50 for the other casters. Please forgive me, I don't understand your direction... 72 seconds for HT compared to ~50 for the others looks like a disadvantage to me, and when does a person "realize they need spellcasters" as opposed to just build them? All... the... fucking... time... are you kidding? HT you build as you need. Ghosts, you produce too many and you've fucked up because you have less marauders and spent 150/150 on a unit that is essentially USELESS (as after the EMP's go off, ghosts are a much less than ideal fighting unit, unlike HT whereas you can storm again, and again, and again with the more you have), don't build enough and you're going to get rolled. Same shit with infestors. Too many and you're going to get rolled. With ghosts, let's say you do build the optimal amount, and they get feedbacked... FUCK go back to your barracks and cancel the marauders building and try to get out a ghost. When you're toss? Oh, lemme chrono boost mah warpgates and insta-warp in some HT right where I need them on the battlefield, while warping my existing HT into archons. I'd be fine with amulet if HT weren't able to be warped in and had to be produced from the gateway instead. Here's the main flaw with the production time thing you guys keep speaking of. The ONLY situation where it's equal is when you realize you need an HT, and you JUST warped in something else. In all other situations, the time at which you can acquire your HT is significantly less. As with my example above, if I need ghosts in a situation and don't have them, I have to go to my rax, see a marauder half built, CANCEL it, then start building the ghost from scratch, causing massive inefficiencies from my barracks production. With an HT, if you had warped in a stalker, and the cooldown is half done, you only half to wait half a cooldown for the stalker, and zero inefficiency is caused. You get the HT out much quicker than I can get out my ghost. Considering if you really need the HT, you can chronoboost it to get it out even faster by reducing the 50% remaining cooldown, then you can warp the HT in anywhere you want, you're getting that HT INSANELY fast. If I don't want to have inefficiency as Terran, I have to let my marauder finish, then build the ghost after, delaying it even further, valuable time I don't have. On March 03 2011 04:55 tehemperorer wrote:On March 03 2011 04:45 Reptilia wrote:
i dont understund.
Do protoss users think the amulet was balanced (pre 1.3)?
i mean how op is having a huge bio and beating ur huge army of gateway+collossus and the protoss just warps a couple ht and instantly destroy your army even tho u won a huge army battle.
Thats nonsense
However, maybe an upgrade that gives 13 extra starting energy would be good If I have two tier 3 tech paths, why are you still on 1.5? That's nonsense... Would that work in War3? Switch to mech and stop complaining about how your tier 1.5 melts to a more expensive and time consuming tier 3 tech You can always tell extremely mediocre Protoss players when they give this response. I hope you realize that they said something similar to this on State of the Game awhile back. So apparently Nony and iNcontrol are extremely mediocre too, eh? I think you missed the point anyways. Bio Ball > Gateway units at Tier 1. Bio Ball >>> Gateway units at Tier 2. Gateway units > Bio Ball at Tier 3. Ever wonder why Zerg players don't complain about Temps being imbalanced against Zerglings? Because they're man enough to stop making Tier 1 units. Oh, and Templars demolish Zerglings. Maybe if Blizzard would nerf Marines Terrans would stop falling back on them like a crutch and start playing the game. I'm so fed up with Terrans complaining about storm; you have control of the entire damn game until 15 minutes. The Protoss must play reactionary, and many Protosses lose in these first 15 minutes to stupid Terran pushes. Then after 15 minutes YOU must play reactionary and the Protoss has the advantage and Terran players whine and whine and whine. Even though, of course, since the Terran player has the immediate advantage, the game rarely lasts longer than 15 minutes. Ridiculous. You Terrans are so spoiled. Learn to go mech, it's becoming more and more viable and storm is barely effective against it. Hell, go ghost/mech so you can still use your barracks from all your early bio. Early bio pressure into FE into ghost/mech? There you go. Zerg players don't complain as much about HT because they're complaining about Voidray Colossus, lmao. If you also cannot see the difference between Zerglings, an extremely fast unit that engages in melee combat and thus is always moving out of the storms, and when they are stationary that means you're most likely storming some of your own units as well, you're ridiculous. Cool that you're sick of Terran players complaining about storm, and then come back with an irrelevant point about Terran early game. Nice job. I wasn't aware we were discussing overall balance of the matchup. Oh, that's right, we aren't. What's more ridiculous is that you are saying I'm some spoiled Terran, while I hovered around rank ~120-150 constantly with Zerg in the Top 200 for the first 4 months of the game, then when I played Terran for the recent 3, I only hovered around ~300-350. And in case you were wondering why the switch occurred, I switched the day Patch 1.2 came out and buffed Zerg. But no no, keep coming with irrelevant, moronic accusations. Last, LOL another random poster ending their post with "go mech." LOLOL. Yup, you are correct on all accounts. We should be looking at storm alone, not the matchup as a whole, because the strength of storm does not affect the balance of the matchup >.< Is this your reasoning? I hope not. You still have yet to play Protoss. I don't care if you're IdrA, I still wouldn't listen to your opinion on ZvP because IdrA does not play Protoss. I play Protoss and Terran and at least that means I can look at the topic objectively while you come in with a personal bias. Another question; stimmed marines aren't an extremely fast unit? LOLOL kk Your responses... mindblowing ignorance... hard to comprehend. 1) The counterargument consisted of the premise "Terran too strong early game, thus Toss needs to be too strong lategame." My God. Awful argument. Do you know what would be better? Terran too strong early game, matchup is balanced lategame! Because guess what, it would be at least more balanced, and then they could work on fixing whatever supposedly gives Terran a superior advantage in the early game. Same vice versa, if they could make TvP equal early-midgame, even if P still dominates lategame, it's still better than what it is now. The argument about Terran early game concerning what I was talking about is so mindblowing stupid I'm still having trouble dealing with it. 2) If you can't listen to other players simply because they play a single race then you're ridiculously stupid. Is TLO your only source of legit advice? But wait, he plays random, which gives you an early game advantage because of having to scout early, so the other person should DEFINITELY PWN LATEGAME according to your logic, am I right? Not to mention the fact I can play Protoss anyways and easily stomp the lower Masters league players sub300 points, except PvP (yes, I'm aware that doesn't eliminate the bias situation, it just shows an overall higher understanding of the game). 3) Compared to speedlings, you're right stimmed marines aren't very fast. You're referring to a unit that has near none of the qualities I mentioned. Marines are not constantly moving. They stop to shoot. That is different than a speedling. While they thus have a meager 10 more HP than their Zergling companion in this situation, they are much less likely to survive because they were stationary at the time. Zerglings are also immensely cheaper and thus it's a lot less of a deal to lose them. LOLOL kk 1) No; in fact, having Terran too strong early game and Toss too strong late game makes it somewhat balanced, but in no way that anybody actually likes. The reason why Tosses are up in arms about Amulet is that if you nerf Toss lategame and NOT Terran early game, then the matchup becomes skewered: Protoss never has an advantage. "Mindblowingly stupid" is what you call looking at the matchup as a whole. Well, that's silly. In order to determine how a patch will affect balance you MUST look at the matchup as a whole. It would be idiotic not to. 2) I didn't say you can't listen to their opinion, you just have to be aware of bias. You do not play Protoss at a high enough level to make any judgements concerning the balance of Templars with Amulet, I'm sorry. Accept that and grow up. 3) Marines will have 55 hp by the time Storm comes out (-10 due to stim, I could see that). Also, storm COUNTERS bio, you idiot. Of course your marines won't survive a storm. It'd be pretty retarded if you heard Protoss players being all like "Yeah so I made Collosus and they all died to Vikings, and Vikings can fly, so it's obviously imbalanced" Your bio ball SHOULD die to storm if the Protoss is any competent. Keep it in mind you get marines after 15 supply while it takes Temps with storm and amulet to come out post-20 minutes. I see Amulet as a reward for a Protoss just surviving teching to Temps. And when you see Amulet, you should stop making Bio. If you keep going Bio, then you're just flat out retarded. 4) You're doing a horrible job arguing this thing out, maybe you should go take your arguments to reddit or something
1. No, the only possible thing you need to consider about early game when talking about lategame is whether or nor the advantage from early game will transition into entering lategame with an advantage. The rest is irrelevant, and pointless to discuss. And your entire argument focused on it being good they were overpowered lategame simply to counteract supposed early game retardation. Please.
2. I still wouldn't listen to your opinion on ZvP because IdrA does not play Protoss
3. Indeed, you clearly said stimmed marines. I never said storm didn't or shouldn't counter marines, "you idiot."
4. There are nearly no alternatives to not going bio. Is there a single unit in the Terran arensal that once I get out, I can say to you "you should stop making Zealots/Stalkers/Sentries entirely, otherwise you're flat out retarded." Please, play against me with Immortal/Colossus/High Templar as the core component of your army, I would love it. To compound the issue, Zealot/Stalkers aren't your damage dealers, they are your damage support to your other units. The equivalent Tier one Terran units are the damage dealers. If I could spam something out of my starports that would still be uber mobile and rolf stomp your army, I assure you would. Unfortunately, I don't have a cliff walking unit that deals massive AoE damage and obliterate your Tier one units. I have vikings, medivacs, banshees, and ravens, all of which I employ. None of them have a high damage output in terms of lategame (banshee can be effective early-mid) that your tier 3 units have. It's the way the races are set up, apparently you are too blind to see that.
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Terran and protoss units serve reverse roles in terms of tech.
Terran units go from cost efficient damage -> support
Protoss units go from Support -> cost efficient damage.
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I dont even know if people are open to ideas at this point in this thread but there seems to be a major stumbling block in the minds of terran and zerg who seem to think that warpgates are always off cooldown.
To put it simply, this is only the case when a player has failed to macro or built more production that he can support. Both of these are signs of bad players.
And before people hop on the "warpgates are fast" bandwagon, the cooldown on a gate warping in templar is longer than the whole build time of a ghost (not saying this to compare the units but to give a sense of scale so they can better understand).
It is just as likely that you will hit me just at the beginning of my cycle andit will be a good 45 sec til I can warp as you will hit right as my CD refreshes and it takes me 5 sec.
It is also just as possible you will drop a terran and a full round of bio pops out 2 sec later.
Im not saying the warpin's being tailored to the need isnt an advantage, just saying that warpgates a a production building dont produce things "on demand" the way people seem to think.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On March 03 2011 11:48 Zisc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 11:45 sabres wrote:
HT
Gateway 150/0
Twilight Council 150/100
Templar Archives 150/200
Psi Storm 200/200
Khaydarin Amulet 150/150
High Templar 50/150
Total-850/800
For how much more I'm spending my HT should be better than these other units so stop comparing them You forgot cyber core. Which makes the total count an even 1000 minerals But yes I agree the time and resources it takes to create high templer justifies their ability to crush a TIER ONE push.
I think what we're missing out here is the fact that the Templar is not exactly comparable to a ghost-- I'm not sure you can just claim that one should have qual build time to the other. A Ghost is fundamentally a support unit, focused on decloaking and weakening a wide variety of protoss units, whereas a Templar is a damage unit, with huge burst DPS from storms and the ability to turn into a tier 3 splash unit (the archon). If the Protoss had some sort of instant warp-in for a Ghost type unit, it would be a different story since warping in a round of ghosts would let you EMP an incoming army but not destroy it without support, whereas a cloud of Psistorms (or even 1 or 2 if it's just marines) can cripple AND DESTROY an incoming remnants army.
The reason the Templar is so strong is because the Stalker is inferior to the Roach and Marauder in ground combat, and Templar is supposed to make up for that (along with Sentry). This creates some serious imbalances, such as T being strong early game and P being strong late game in TvP. I'm not sure a straight up nerf is the right thing when we could have a retinkering/balance.
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i think its gonna make protoss a little more like it was on BW.. I remember in bw Protoss players would make 1-2 gates at a far expo so they can produce a HT incase of harass, or attack. I like that Blizzard is removing it since it is an obvious flaw in the balance in the game. I mean honestly any above average player can warp in 2-3 hts and storm a army to death or 10 hps cause of amulet. Now it's going to make players use HTs more strategically because of the mana build up. Im honestly just glad that when I walk through a protoss army now they wont b able to warp in 4 hts and presss t 4 times and kill or damage an entire army. Good move for blizzard, and yes it will balance out the game more imo
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On March 03 2011 10:44 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 10:05 LilClinkin wrote:
*I say this irrespective of the current balance of the game*
I believe from a game-design point of view that the ability to instantly create a templar with a ready-to-cast storm anywhere on the battlefield in pylon range is retardedly imbalanced. It goes against the fundamental decision-making process in any good RTS: forward planning to calculate risk vs reward for all decisions you make. Any one who wishes to argue that such a mechanic is 'good' for a game is an idiot. Sure it's fun and exciting, but it's not 'good' on a fundamental level.
Furthermore, I believe the ability to instantly create *any* unit you want on the battlefield (ala warp-in mechanic) is also horrible from a game-design point of view when trying to create a solid real-time strategy game. The reason that Protoss gateway units are so comparably weak compared to their SC1 counterparts, the reason that stalker attack scales so poorly at +1 per level, and the reason that HT and DT techs are now split all stem back to the fact that warp-in is so over-powered in an RTS that Blizz had to nerf Protoss in many other areas to compensate. This mechanic is also the reason that map designers have such a difficult time balancing the game through varying map-sizes, coupled with the larva inject (but I will not touch this issue as it is a whole different kettle of fish), because the potency of the 4warpgate rush is unaffected by map-size.
That's the end of my little rant. As for the current situation with the amulet upgrade? Honestly, I don't know. It is ridiculously overpowered but when you factor in all the other fundamentally ridiculous things Blizz has thrown into this game, you're left with a balancing nightmare.
On a side note, I did have an idea that could sort of balance out the amulet upgrade. What if the upgrade gave your templar additional energy for each over-lapping power field it is warped in to? eg. If each power field gave 8 energy to your templar when it is warped in, you could warp to an area with 3 over-lapping fields to get your instant storm (1 second for 1 extra energy). This would some-what reward forward planning, rather than 'omg there is a big drop in my base that I didn't see coming from a mile away, oh well lulz I will instantly make some templars and stalkers to mop it up lulz I am so good at this game'. No, it doesn't. If you are aware that your opponent can warp in storms, you can account for that in your play, and employ tactics to defeat it. Drop a sensor tower: no more worries about storm drops. Bring ghosts with your drops to snipe/emp high templars as they warp in, now your drops are nearly unbeatable. Spread your units out, get tanks and air control for vision. Now high templars have to be exceptionally careful because tanks will snipe them if they try to storm. Use your ghosts carefully, get a raven and take out observers, then cloak your ghosts and BAM, bunch of high templars out of the fight. If he reinforces with more, just keep playing safe. It still rewards decision making and planning quite a bit, it's just another strong tactic. In fact, the reason high templar instant warping were so strong is that players were A) sticking on pure bio, and B) not playing in a style that truly recognizes the risk. And it's still beatable with bio, I remember watching a pro level korean game between a terran who made only marines vs. a protoss who went for high templar/chargelots, and the terran won that game. Long game too.
I agree with your post out-lining ways to circumnavigate the imbalances of templar-warp in. I never said it was impossible to deal with. What your post fails to do is explain how warping in a ready-to-storm templar wherever you want is a fundamentally solid pillar of RTS game design. My point was addressing the ability to use warp-in templar as a defensive mechanic, which is why so many Protoss are crying about the amulet nerf. But to address your post I'll explain why warp-in storms is bad game-design from the perspective of using it for harassment purposes.
The only thing you risk in executing the drop is the warp prism. If your prism dies en-route, you only lose 200 minerals. If your warp-prism makes it to the desired location, you proceed to pay for the rest of your harassment (50/150 per templar) for almost-guaranteed damage. If you feel that storming the drop-location is not worth the investment of templars, just don't build them. Very little is risked (200 minerals), but the potential for a large reward (wiping out a base of workers for the subsequent cost of 2 templars) exists. Compare to SC1, if you wanted to do a storm drop or a reaver drop, you are putting an up-front risked investment of the shuttle PLUS the templars/reavers already inside it, and THEN you send it to the enemy base to see where you can poke.
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Since the imbalance with the amulet seems to be caused by the ability to warp in and instantly storm, I had an interesting idea to keep the amulet, but stop warp in storms. Once gateways have been turned into warpgates, they can be turned back into gateway (this is never used currently). Maybe in order for HTs to have 75 energy after the amulet is researched they need to be built from a gateway, but if the are built from a warpgate they will only have 50 energy. This would put an end to warp in storms, but would allow protoss to still be able to have HTs with storm immediately as long as they are built from a gateway.
Anyone have any thoughts about this?
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On March 03 2011 12:01 Velocirapture wrote:
I dont even know if people are open to ideas at this point in this thread but there seems to be a major stumbling block in the minds of terran and zerg who seem to think that warpgates are always off cooldown.
To put it simply, this is only the case when a player has failed to macro or built more production that he can support. Both of these are signs of bad players.
And before people hop on the "warpgates are fast" bandwagon, the cooldown on a gate warping in templar is longer than the whole build time of a ghost (not saying this to compare the units but to give a sense of scale so they can better understand).
It is just as likely that you will hit me just at the beginning of my cycle andit will be a good 45 sec til I can warp as you will hit right as my CD refreshes and it takes me 5 sec.
It is also just as possible you will drop a terran and a full round of bio pops out 2 sec later.
Im not saying the warpin's being tailored to the need isnt an advantage, just saying that warpgates a a production building dont produce things "on demand" the way people seem to think.
If you read my post earlier, in the absolute LEAST ideal case assuming the Toss is macroing perfectly, the situation is equivalent to Terran's MOST ideal case, and that's disregarding the fact you can warp in and the ghost will arrive at the barracks.
To be brief and not have to repeat it all over again, say you have a sudden need for a templar, and your cooldown is 50% done. You now only have to wait half the time until you need the templar... you don't have to wait a full production cycle. You can even chrono it to get it out faster and get that templar where you need it. If you're Terran and you have a Marauder building halfway, you either have to cancel the Marauder and wait the full buildtime of the Ghost anyways, or you have to wait for the Marauder to finish and then build the ghost, immensely delaying the time until you get that Ghost you need. If you cancel the Marauder, you're being extremely inefficient with your raxes in the sense it was wasted time with no yield, and if you let it finish you're not getting htat Ghost for a super long time. And once again, you get your Templar whereever the hell you want it (sort of, but if you're defending you'll for sure have a pylon where you engage, if you're attacking every toss builds pylons), while Ghosts have to traverse teh map.
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On March 03 2011 11:54 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 11:16 Barca wrote:On March 03 2011 08:57 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 03 2011 08:43 Barca wrote:On March 03 2011 08:24 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 03 2011 08:15 Barca wrote:On March 03 2011 06:39 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 02 2011 04:39 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:34 Aesop wrote:On March 02 2011 04:30 tehemperorer wrote:
[quote]
Exactly. His argument would only hold water if that HT was the first and only unit built out of that warpgate. He ignores the fact that, after being used as a gateway, the warpgate has already gone through several warp gate cycles before it got to the HT, and the only difference that it made was at around 6 minutes where, if timed properly, a unit finished out of the gate, the gate xformed to warpgate, and another unit was made right there. That is the only point in time where the front-loaded mechanic of the warpgate makes a difference, not 5 minutes later in the game when HT are available with the amulet upgrade. I think the OPs argument is about the "reaction time" you have between "realizing you need spellcasters" and actually "having them available with 75 energy". So assuming your warpgate cooldown is anywhere between ready and just spent, you have between 5 and 50 seconds to react. That gives an average reaction time of 27.5 seconds. With the 44.5 seconds to regenerate added to it, the "average templar reaction time" would be 72 seconds instead of ~50 for the other casters. Please forgive me, I don't understand your direction... 72 seconds for HT compared to ~50 for the others looks like a disadvantage to me, and when does a person "realize they need spellcasters" as opposed to just build them? All... the... fucking... time... are you kidding? HT you build as you need. Ghosts, you produce too many and you've fucked up because you have less marauders and spent 150/150 on a unit that is essentially USELESS (as after the EMP's go off, ghosts are a much less than ideal fighting unit, unlike HT whereas you can storm again, and again, and again with the more you have), don't build enough and you're going to get rolled. Same shit with infestors. Too many and you're going to get rolled. With ghosts, let's say you do build the optimal amount, and they get feedbacked... FUCK go back to your barracks and cancel the marauders building and try to get out a ghost. When you're toss? Oh, lemme chrono boost mah warpgates and insta-warp in some HT right where I need them on the battlefield, while warping my existing HT into archons. I'd be fine with amulet if HT weren't able to be warped in and had to be produced from the gateway instead. Here's the main flaw with the production time thing you guys keep speaking of. The ONLY situation where it's equal is when you realize you need an HT, and you JUST warped in something else. In all other situations, the time at which you can acquire your HT is significantly less. As with my example above, if I need ghosts in a situation and don't have them, I have to go to my rax, see a marauder half built, CANCEL it, then start building the ghost from scratch, causing massive inefficiencies from my barracks production. With an HT, if you had warped in a stalker, and the cooldown is half done, you only half to wait half a cooldown for the stalker, and zero inefficiency is caused. You get the HT out much quicker than I can get out my ghost. Considering if you really need the HT, you can chronoboost it to get it out even faster by reducing the 50% remaining cooldown, then you can warp the HT in anywhere you want, you're getting that HT INSANELY fast. If I don't want to have inefficiency as Terran, I have to let my marauder finish, then build the ghost after, delaying it even further, valuable time I don't have. On March 03 2011 04:55 tehemperorer wrote:On March 03 2011 04:45 Reptilia wrote:
i dont understund.
Do protoss users think the amulet was balanced (pre 1.3)?
i mean how op is having a huge bio and beating ur huge army of gateway+collossus and the protoss just warps a couple ht and instantly destroy your army even tho u won a huge army battle.
Thats nonsense
However, maybe an upgrade that gives 13 extra starting energy would be good If I have two tier 3 tech paths, why are you still on 1.5? That's nonsense... Would that work in War3? Switch to mech and stop complaining about how your tier 1.5 melts to a more expensive and time consuming tier 3 tech You can always tell extremely mediocre Protoss players when they give this response. I hope you realize that they said something similar to this on State of the Game awhile back. So apparently Nony and iNcontrol are extremely mediocre too, eh? I think you missed the point anyways. Bio Ball > Gateway units at Tier 1. Bio Ball >>> Gateway units at Tier 2. Gateway units > Bio Ball at Tier 3. Ever wonder why Zerg players don't complain about Temps being imbalanced against Zerglings? Because they're man enough to stop making Tier 1 units. Oh, and Templars demolish Zerglings. Maybe if Blizzard would nerf Marines Terrans would stop falling back on them like a crutch and start playing the game. I'm so fed up with Terrans complaining about storm; you have control of the entire damn game until 15 minutes. The Protoss must play reactionary, and many Protosses lose in these first 15 minutes to stupid Terran pushes. Then after 15 minutes YOU must play reactionary and the Protoss has the advantage and Terran players whine and whine and whine. Even though, of course, since the Terran player has the immediate advantage, the game rarely lasts longer than 15 minutes. Ridiculous. You Terrans are so spoiled. Learn to go mech, it's becoming more and more viable and storm is barely effective against it. Hell, go ghost/mech so you can still use your barracks from all your early bio. Early bio pressure into FE into ghost/mech? There you go. Zerg players don't complain as much about HT because they're complaining about Voidray Colossus, lmao. If you also cannot see the difference between Zerglings, an extremely fast unit that engages in melee combat and thus is always moving out of the storms, and when they are stationary that means you're most likely storming some of your own units as well, you're ridiculous. Cool that you're sick of Terran players complaining about storm, and then come back with an irrelevant point about Terran early game. Nice job. I wasn't aware we were discussing overall balance of the matchup. Oh, that's right, we aren't. What's more ridiculous is that you are saying I'm some spoiled Terran, while I hovered around rank ~120-150 constantly with Zerg in the Top 200 for the first 4 months of the game, then when I played Terran for the recent 3, I only hovered around ~300-350. And in case you were wondering why the switch occurred, I switched the day Patch 1.2 came out and buffed Zerg. But no no, keep coming with irrelevant, moronic accusations. Last, LOL another random poster ending their post with "go mech." LOLOL. Yup, you are correct on all accounts. We should be looking at storm alone, not the matchup as a whole, because the strength of storm does not affect the balance of the matchup >.< Is this your reasoning? I hope not. You still have yet to play Protoss. I don't care if you're IdrA, I still wouldn't listen to your opinion on ZvP because IdrA does not play Protoss. I play Protoss and Terran and at least that means I can look at the topic objectively while you come in with a personal bias. Another question; stimmed marines aren't an extremely fast unit? LOLOL kk Your responses... mindblowing ignorance... hard to comprehend. 1) The counterargument consisted of the premise "Terran too strong early game, thus Toss needs to be too strong lategame." My God. Awful argument. Do you know what would be better? Terran too strong early game, matchup is balanced lategame! Because guess what, it would be at least more balanced, and then they could work on fixing whatever supposedly gives Terran a superior advantage in the early game. Same vice versa, if they could make TvP equal early-midgame, even if P still dominates lategame, it's still better than what it is now. The argument about Terran early game concerning what I was talking about is so mindblowing stupid I'm still having trouble dealing with it. 2) If you can't listen to other players simply because they play a single race then you're ridiculously stupid. Is TLO your only source of legit advice? But wait, he plays random, which gives you an early game advantage because of having to scout early, so the other person should DEFINITELY PWN LATEGAME according to your logic, am I right? Not to mention the fact I can play Protoss anyways and easily stomp the lower Masters league players sub300 points, except PvP (yes, I'm aware that doesn't eliminate the bias situation, it just shows an overall higher understanding of the game). 3) Compared to speedlings, you're right stimmed marines aren't very fast. You're referring to a unit that has near none of the qualities I mentioned. Marines are not constantly moving. They stop to shoot. That is different than a speedling. While they thus have a meager 10 more HP than their Zergling companion in this situation, they are much less likely to survive because they were stationary at the time. Zerglings are also immensely cheaper and thus it's a lot less of a deal to lose them. LOLOL kk 1) No; in fact, having Terran too strong early game and Toss too strong late game makes it somewhat balanced, but in no way that anybody actually likes. The reason why Tosses are up in arms about Amulet is that if you nerf Toss lategame and NOT Terran early game, then the matchup becomes skewered: Protoss never has an advantage. "Mindblowingly stupid" is what you call looking at the matchup as a whole. Well, that's silly. In order to determine how a patch will affect balance you MUST look at the matchup as a whole. It would be idiotic not to. 2) I didn't say you can't listen to their opinion, you just have to be aware of bias. You do not play Protoss at a high enough level to make any judgements concerning the balance of Templars with Amulet, I'm sorry. Accept that and grow up. 3) Marines will have 55 hp by the time Storm comes out (-10 due to stim, I could see that). Also, storm COUNTERS bio, you idiot. Of course your marines won't survive a storm. It'd be pretty retarded if you heard Protoss players being all like "Yeah so I made Collosus and they all died to Vikings, and Vikings can fly, so it's obviously imbalanced" Your bio ball SHOULD die to storm if the Protoss is any competent. Keep it in mind you get marines after 15 supply while it takes Temps with storm and amulet to come out post-20 minutes. I see Amulet as a reward for a Protoss just surviving teching to Temps. And when you see Amulet, you should stop making Bio. If you keep going Bio, then you're just flat out retarded. 4) You're doing a horrible job arguing this thing out, maybe you should go take your arguments to reddit or something 1. No, the only possible thing you need to consider about early game when talking about lategame is whether or nor the advantage from early game will transition into entering lategame with an advantage. The rest is irrelevant, and pointless to discuss. And your entire argument focused on it being good they were overpowered lategame simply to counteract supposed early game retardation. Please. 2. Show nested quote +I still wouldn't listen to your opinion on ZvP because IdrA does not play Protoss 3. Indeed, you clearly said stimmed marines. I never said storm didn't or shouldn't counter marines, "you idiot." 4. There are nearly no alternatives to not going bio. Is there a single unit in the Terran arensal that once I get out, I can say to you "you should stop making Zealots/Stalkers/Sentries entirely, otherwise you're flat out retarded." Please, play against me with Immortal/Colossus/High Templar as the core component of your army, I would love it. To compound the issue, Zealot/Stalkers aren't your damage dealers, they are your damage support to your other units. The equivalent Tier one Terran units are the damage dealers. If I could spam something out of my starports that would still be uber mobile and rolf stomp your army, I assure you would. Unfortunately, I don't have a cliff walking unit that deals massive AoE damage and obliterate your Tier one units. I have vikings, medivacs, banshees, and ravens, all of which I employ. None of them have a high damage output in terms of lategame (banshee can be effective early-mid) that your tier 3 units have. It's the way the races are set up, apparently you are too blind to see that.
Du, it's cool.
Immortal//Collosus//High Templar? Well that sounds pretty imbalanced...
Banshees have higher DPS than Void Rays. I think calling them effective early-mid is entirely wrong. You foolishly fail to utilize them properly in the late game.
Stimmed Marine//Marauders have some of the highest DPS for ground units in the damn game.
Yes, the races are set up differently, congrats on figuring that out. Took you long enough. Perhaps this means that it's okay that Temps have great AoE damage, the downside being they take forever to get and can be EMPed.
If you get a Thor, I'd be retarded to make Sentries >.<
Plus, Protoss works differently than Terran (as you brilliantly stated above) You require your Tier1 for DPS while I require my Tier1 as support. They have entirely different roles, and this is why early bio rushes are so damn strong. Your later Tiers give you supporting units while mine give me DPS. Welcome to PvT. Your lack of lategame solutions is nullified by your abundance of early-mid game power. Don't like it? Don't talk to me about it.
You should make more Ravens. Hunter Seeker Missile against an immobile Protoss army does more damage than a Storm.
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This was a very informative post and I completely agree with every logical process he made.
Great post op.
Fun fact, emp can't actually kill units, storm can.
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On March 03 2011 13:29 Barca wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 11:54 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 03 2011 11:16 Barca wrote:On March 03 2011 08:57 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 03 2011 08:43 Barca wrote:On March 03 2011 08:24 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 03 2011 08:15 Barca wrote:On March 03 2011 06:39 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 02 2011 04:39 tehemperorer wrote:On March 02 2011 04:34 Aesop wrote:
[quote]
I think the OPs argument is about the "reaction time" you have between "realizing you need spellcasters" and actually "having them available with 75 energy". So assuming your warpgate cooldown is anywhere between ready and just spent, you have between 5 and 50 seconds to react. That gives an average reaction time of 27.5 seconds.
With the 44.5 seconds to regenerate added to it, the "average templar reaction time" would be 72 seconds instead of ~50 for the other casters. Please forgive me, I don't understand your direction... 72 seconds for HT compared to ~50 for the others looks like a disadvantage to me, and when does a person "realize they need spellcasters" as opposed to just build them? All... the... fucking... time... are you kidding? HT you build as you need. Ghosts, you produce too many and you've fucked up because you have less marauders and spent 150/150 on a unit that is essentially USELESS (as after the EMP's go off, ghosts are a much less than ideal fighting unit, unlike HT whereas you can storm again, and again, and again with the more you have), don't build enough and you're going to get rolled. Same shit with infestors. Too many and you're going to get rolled. With ghosts, let's say you do build the optimal amount, and they get feedbacked... FUCK go back to your barracks and cancel the marauders building and try to get out a ghost. When you're toss? Oh, lemme chrono boost mah warpgates and insta-warp in some HT right where I need them on the battlefield, while warping my existing HT into archons. I'd be fine with amulet if HT weren't able to be warped in and had to be produced from the gateway instead. Here's the main flaw with the production time thing you guys keep speaking of. The ONLY situation where it's equal is when you realize you need an HT, and you JUST warped in something else. In all other situations, the time at which you can acquire your HT is significantly less. As with my example above, if I need ghosts in a situation and don't have them, I have to go to my rax, see a marauder half built, CANCEL it, then start building the ghost from scratch, causing massive inefficiencies from my barracks production. With an HT, if you had warped in a stalker, and the cooldown is half done, you only half to wait half a cooldown for the stalker, and zero inefficiency is caused. You get the HT out much quicker than I can get out my ghost. Considering if you really need the HT, you can chronoboost it to get it out even faster by reducing the 50% remaining cooldown, then you can warp the HT in anywhere you want, you're getting that HT INSANELY fast. If I don't want to have inefficiency as Terran, I have to let my marauder finish, then build the ghost after, delaying it even further, valuable time I don't have. On March 03 2011 04:55 tehemperorer wrote:On March 03 2011 04:45 Reptilia wrote:
i dont understund.
Do protoss users think the amulet was balanced (pre 1.3)?
i mean how op is having a huge bio and beating ur huge army of gateway+collossus and the protoss just warps a couple ht and instantly destroy your army even tho u won a huge army battle.
Thats nonsense
However, maybe an upgrade that gives 13 extra starting energy would be good If I have two tier 3 tech paths, why are you still on 1.5? That's nonsense... Would that work in War3? Switch to mech and stop complaining about how your tier 1.5 melts to a more expensive and time consuming tier 3 tech You can always tell extremely mediocre Protoss players when they give this response. I hope you realize that they said something similar to this on State of the Game awhile back. So apparently Nony and iNcontrol are extremely mediocre too, eh? I think you missed the point anyways. Bio Ball > Gateway units at Tier 1. Bio Ball >>> Gateway units at Tier 2. Gateway units > Bio Ball at Tier 3. Ever wonder why Zerg players don't complain about Temps being imbalanced against Zerglings? Because they're man enough to stop making Tier 1 units. Oh, and Templars demolish Zerglings. Maybe if Blizzard would nerf Marines Terrans would stop falling back on them like a crutch and start playing the game. I'm so fed up with Terrans complaining about storm; you have control of the entire damn game until 15 minutes. The Protoss must play reactionary, and many Protosses lose in these first 15 minutes to stupid Terran pushes. Then after 15 minutes YOU must play reactionary and the Protoss has the advantage and Terran players whine and whine and whine. Even though, of course, since the Terran player has the immediate advantage, the game rarely lasts longer than 15 minutes. Ridiculous. You Terrans are so spoiled. Learn to go mech, it's becoming more and more viable and storm is barely effective against it. Hell, go ghost/mech so you can still use your barracks from all your early bio. Early bio pressure into FE into ghost/mech? There you go. Zerg players don't complain as much about HT because they're complaining about Voidray Colossus, lmao. If you also cannot see the difference between Zerglings, an extremely fast unit that engages in melee combat and thus is always moving out of the storms, and when they are stationary that means you're most likely storming some of your own units as well, you're ridiculous. Cool that you're sick of Terran players complaining about storm, and then come back with an irrelevant point about Terran early game. Nice job. I wasn't aware we were discussing overall balance of the matchup. Oh, that's right, we aren't. What's more ridiculous is that you are saying I'm some spoiled Terran, while I hovered around rank ~120-150 constantly with Zerg in the Top 200 for the first 4 months of the game, then when I played Terran for the recent 3, I only hovered around ~300-350. And in case you were wondering why the switch occurred, I switched the day Patch 1.2 came out and buffed Zerg. But no no, keep coming with irrelevant, moronic accusations. Last, LOL another random poster ending their post with "go mech." LOLOL. Yup, you are correct on all accounts. We should be looking at storm alone, not the matchup as a whole, because the strength of storm does not affect the balance of the matchup >.< Is this your reasoning? I hope not. You still have yet to play Protoss. I don't care if you're IdrA, I still wouldn't listen to your opinion on ZvP because IdrA does not play Protoss. I play Protoss and Terran and at least that means I can look at the topic objectively while you come in with a personal bias. Another question; stimmed marines aren't an extremely fast unit? LOLOL kk Your responses... mindblowing ignorance... hard to comprehend. 1) The counterargument consisted of the premise "Terran too strong early game, thus Toss needs to be too strong lategame." My God. Awful argument. Do you know what would be better? Terran too strong early game, matchup is balanced lategame! Because guess what, it would be at least more balanced, and then they could work on fixing whatever supposedly gives Terran a superior advantage in the early game. Same vice versa, if they could make TvP equal early-midgame, even if P still dominates lategame, it's still better than what it is now. The argument about Terran early game concerning what I was talking about is so mindblowing stupid I'm still having trouble dealing with it. 2) If you can't listen to other players simply because they play a single race then you're ridiculously stupid. Is TLO your only source of legit advice? But wait, he plays random, which gives you an early game advantage because of having to scout early, so the other person should DEFINITELY PWN LATEGAME according to your logic, am I right? Not to mention the fact I can play Protoss anyways and easily stomp the lower Masters league players sub300 points, except PvP (yes, I'm aware that doesn't eliminate the bias situation, it just shows an overall higher understanding of the game). 3) Compared to speedlings, you're right stimmed marines aren't very fast. You're referring to a unit that has near none of the qualities I mentioned. Marines are not constantly moving. They stop to shoot. That is different than a speedling. While they thus have a meager 10 more HP than their Zergling companion in this situation, they are much less likely to survive because they were stationary at the time. Zerglings are also immensely cheaper and thus it's a lot less of a deal to lose them. LOLOL kk 1) No; in fact, having Terran too strong early game and Toss too strong late game makes it somewhat balanced, but in no way that anybody actually likes. The reason why Tosses are up in arms about Amulet is that if you nerf Toss lategame and NOT Terran early game, then the matchup becomes skewered: Protoss never has an advantage. "Mindblowingly stupid" is what you call looking at the matchup as a whole. Well, that's silly. In order to determine how a patch will affect balance you MUST look at the matchup as a whole. It would be idiotic not to. 2) I didn't say you can't listen to their opinion, you just have to be aware of bias. You do not play Protoss at a high enough level to make any judgements concerning the balance of Templars with Amulet, I'm sorry. Accept that and grow up. 3) Marines will have 55 hp by the time Storm comes out (-10 due to stim, I could see that). Also, storm COUNTERS bio, you idiot. Of course your marines won't survive a storm. It'd be pretty retarded if you heard Protoss players being all like "Yeah so I made Collosus and they all died to Vikings, and Vikings can fly, so it's obviously imbalanced" Your bio ball SHOULD die to storm if the Protoss is any competent. Keep it in mind you get marines after 15 supply while it takes Temps with storm and amulet to come out post-20 minutes. I see Amulet as a reward for a Protoss just surviving teching to Temps. And when you see Amulet, you should stop making Bio. If you keep going Bio, then you're just flat out retarded. 4) You're doing a horrible job arguing this thing out, maybe you should go take your arguments to reddit or something 1. No, the only possible thing you need to consider about early game when talking about lategame is whether or nor the advantage from early game will transition into entering lategame with an advantage. The rest is irrelevant, and pointless to discuss. And your entire argument focused on it being good they were overpowered lategame simply to counteract supposed early game retardation. Please. 2. I still wouldn't listen to your opinion on ZvP because IdrA does not play Protoss 3. Indeed, you clearly said stimmed marines. I never said storm didn't or shouldn't counter marines, "you idiot." 4. There are nearly no alternatives to not going bio. Is there a single unit in the Terran arensal that once I get out, I can say to you "you should stop making Zealots/Stalkers/Sentries entirely, otherwise you're flat out retarded." Please, play against me with Immortal/Colossus/High Templar as the core component of your army, I would love it. To compound the issue, Zealot/Stalkers aren't your damage dealers, they are your damage support to your other units. The equivalent Tier one Terran units are the damage dealers. If I could spam something out of my starports that would still be uber mobile and rolf stomp your army, I assure you would. Unfortunately, I don't have a cliff walking unit that deals massive AoE damage and obliterate your Tier one units. I have vikings, medivacs, banshees, and ravens, all of which I employ. None of them have a high damage output in terms of lategame (banshee can be effective early-mid) that your tier 3 units have. It's the way the races are set up, apparently you are too blind to see that. Du, it's cool. Immortal//Collosus//High Templar? Well that sounds pretty imbalanced... Banshees have higher DPS than Void Rays. I think calling them effective early-mid is entirely wrong. You foolishly fail to utilize them properly in the late game. Stimmed Marine//Marauders have some of the highest DPS for ground units in the damn game. Yes, the races are set up differently, congrats on figuring that out. Took you long enough. Perhaps this means that it's okay that Temps have great AoE damage, the downside being they take forever to get and can be EMPed. If you get a Thor, I'd be retarded to make Sentries >.< Plus, Protoss works differently than Terran (as you brilliantly stated above) You require your Tier1 for DPS while I require my Tier1 as support. They have entirely different roles, and this is why early bio rushes are so damn strong. Your later Tiers give you supporting units while mine give me DPS. Welcome to PvT. Your lack of lategame solutions is nullified by your abundance of early-mid game power. Don't like it? Don't talk to me about it. You should make more Ravens. Hunter Seeker Missile against an immobile Protoss army does more damage than a Storm.
Just going to edit out the response instead and stop responding to you, there's no point talking to someone who can't grasp the fundamentals of this game.
PS. Charged void rays most definitely have a higher DPS vs armored/massive units than banshees.
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On March 03 2011 13:32 OmegaSyrus wrote:
This was a very informative post and I completely agree with every logical process he made.
Great post op.
Fun fact, emp can't actually kill units, storm can.
Gah, I hate it when people say things like this. Technically, Forcefield never killed anyone, yet it leads to a lot more dead units. Likewise, EMP never killed anything, it just halves the amount of damage (roughly) that my army can soak. PDD never killed anything, but it saved some Vikings so they could kill stuff.
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Why is zerg completely ignored in this argument?
HT's are for more prevalent in PvT than in PvZ. Considering high templars are the only reasonable defense against bio aggression aside from colossi, the loss of a templar/it's energy/inability to reinforce is much more devastating to toss than it would be in PvZ. The nerf is pretty much aimed directly at PvT.
If you're Terran and you have a Marauder building halfway, you either have to cancel the Marauder and wait the full buildtime of the Ghost anyways, or you have to wait for the Marauder to finish and then build the ghost, immensely delaying the time until you get that Ghost you need.
How often do terran ever need a ghost for defense in the mid game? I didn't know ghost tech for terran is just as pivotal to defending a push as a high templar is. Cause you know, without a ghost those rax units just melt to gateway aggression...?
It seems so irrelevant to compare the nature of their construction as they both serve different roles.
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maybe stop building T1.000 units to counter the T3 Protoss army.
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maybe stop building T1.000 units to counter the T3 Protoss army.
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WTF why are arguments now involving warp gate tech? The game was balanced with this in mind, in fact, I could argue that Protoss unit build times from gateways were deliberately made long because every player will get warp gates, thereby shortening a normal build time even more.
Warp in storms are being blown so far out of proportion it is ridiculous. People are acting like 3 warped in HT are destroying 100 supply worth of units, and that is just not true. IF you are refusing to micro your units, IF you refuse to spread your units (since I have to spread my HT against EMP), and IF you let your units sit in a psionic storm for 4 game seconds time after time, then yes, you are going to lose a ton of shit. It is hard to place a good storm with one templar on a player who actually knows what they're doing, stop acting like the PS template is the size of a nuke.
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EPT
