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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 04 2011 01:53 Aerakin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 01:32 TimeSpiral wrote:
And when they dramatically change a game mechanic, or completely remove an element of the game it is because it is breaking the game from the way they want it to be played.
I just want to note that this isn't always a good for the game. I know you probably aren't implying this (I'd rather not put words in your mouth), but "Blizzard knows best" doesn't turn out to be always true. Sad, but heh, can't do much about that. (of course, I'm still bitter about the removal of the return mineral glitch, so that might influence my opinion on that. Then again, that's another subject altogether)
Of course I don't believe that "Blizzard knows best" is always true. The point I'm trying to make is that when something is outright removed, or to a lesser degree effectively removed (like the Reaper), it clearly runs counter to a fundamental view of how they think the game should work.
A complete removal does not really support the argument, "this thing needed tweaking," but more closely suggests, "this thing is totally broken."
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On March 04 2011 03:01 TimeSpiral wrote:
Of course I don't believe that "Blizzard knows best" is always true. The point I'm trying to make is that when something is outright removed, or to a lesser degree effectively removed (like the Reaper), it clearly runs counter to a fundamental view of how they think the game should work.
A complete removal does not really support the argument, "this thing needed tweaking," but more closely suggests, "this thing is totally broken."
you mean like fungal not hitting air ?
that logic makes so much sense -.-....
they are testing, that doesn't mean every idea they have is good.
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On March 04 2011 03:05 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 03:01 TimeSpiral wrote:
Of course I don't believe that "Blizzard knows best" is always true. The point I'm trying to make is that when something is outright removed, or to a lesser degree effectively removed (like the Reaper), it clearly runs counter to a fundamental view of how they think the game should work.
A complete removal does not really support the argument, "this thing needed tweaking," but more closely suggests, "this thing is totally broken." you mean like fungal not hitting air ? that logic makes so much sense -.-.... they are testing, that doesn't mean every idea they have is good.
Sigh ...
Of course not. Ha. But it does indicate that "something about FG is broken."
Am I really that ambiguous when I post?
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So then don't remove KA, change it, but don't remove it...
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I think KA is fine as it is. It already costs alot of gas and time in order to make high templars to use something other than feedback. All it takes is for terran to get 1 ghost then you neutralize the whole bunch of high templars. Plus, I like seeing toss go something other than collossi when I play against them. The phoenix buff made air a usable tech path. Either way, hts make terran go ghosts which I think should be used more often anyways.
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There are two major problems with this argument. First, you should really be starting the whole thing when each race gets their tech up, so for ghosts it'll be the first ghost starting production at 5-6 minutes and the first ht starting at 11+ minutes.
Secondly, this isn't how the races are balanced. Vikings on the ground tend to be a pretty even match for Stalkers, and every terran I know considers vikings on the ground to be a joke. Protoss lacks raw power in their basic units so they need effective DPS from their higher tier. If you want to fight the later tier try getting fewer marines and more thors, vikings, ravens (really powerful vs stalkers), ghosts banshees etc (depending on what the opponent has). Maybe even BCs with the speed upgrade.
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On March 04 2011 04:04 tehemperorer wrote:
So then don't remove KA, change it, but don't remove it...
Why though?
• Without the mobius reactor Terran waits 88 seconds for an EMP after the Ghost is ordered from a Barracks. The Ghost spawns from the Barracks in which is was ordered from. This is usually not where the Ghost needs to be.
• With the mobius reactor Terran waits 40 seconds for an EMP after the Ghost is ordered from a Barracks. The unit proximity remains the same, of course.
• Without the KA Protoss waits 49 seconds for a Psi-Storm after the HT is ordered from a Warpgate. The HT can be spawned anywhere a psi-field is present.
• With the KA Protoss waits 5 seconds for a Psi-Storm after the HT is ordered from a Warpgate. The unit proximity remains the same, of course.
I believe it is because of the Warpgate mechanic that the KA is not needed.
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On March 02 2011 04:14 dala wrote:
This is a necessary patch. Storming of mineral lines is way too powerful.
Storming mineral lines? That basically never happens in pro games.. also you can just run the workers away. Storm doesn't exactly one shot.
Also a little correction to OP. If you destroy a pylon that powers warping in units, the warp gate cooldown is not reset. You get a cooldown but no units.
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On March 04 2011 01:32 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 01:22 Apolo wrote:On March 03 2011 13:19 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 03 2011 12:01 Velocirapture wrote:
I dont even know if people are open to ideas at this point in this thread but there seems to be a major stumbling block in the minds of terran and zerg who seem to think that warpgates are always off cooldown.
To put it simply, this is only the case when a player has failed to macro or built more production that he can support. Both of these are signs of bad players.
And before people hop on the "warpgates are fast" bandwagon, the cooldown on a gate warping in templar is longer than the whole build time of a ghost (not saying this to compare the units but to give a sense of scale so they can better understand).
It is just as likely that you will hit me just at the beginning of my cycle andit will be a good 45 sec til I can warp as you will hit right as my CD refreshes and it takes me 5 sec.
It is also just as possible you will drop a terran and a full round of bio pops out 2 sec later.
Im not saying the warpin's being tailored to the need isnt an advantage, just saying that warpgates a a production building dont produce things "on demand" the way people seem to think. If you read my post earlier, in the absolute LEAST ideal case assuming the Toss is macroing perfectly, the situation is equivalent to Terran's MOST ideal case, and that's disregarding the fact you can warp in and the ghost will arrive at the barracks. To be brief and not have to repeat it all over again, say you have a sudden need for a templar, and your cooldown is 50% done. You now only have to wait half the time until you need the templar... you don't have to wait a full production cycle. You can even chrono it to get it out faster and get that templar where you need it. If you're Terran and you have a Marauder building halfway, you either have to cancel the Marauder and wait the full buildtime of the Ghost anyways, or you have to wait for the Marauder to finish and then build the ghost, immensely delaying the time until you get that Ghost you need. If you cancel the Marauder, you're being extremely inefficient with your raxes in the sense it was wasted time with no yield, and if you let it finish you're not getting htat Ghost for a super long time. And once again, you get your Templar whereever the hell you want it (sort of, but if you're defending you'll for sure have a pylon where you engage, if you're attacking every toss builds pylons), while Ghosts have to traverse teh map. This never ceases to amaze me. Another one of [Random fact about a protoss mechanic taken out of context to make it seem imbalanced, compeltely disregrarding how each race works differently] Tell me, what sense does it make to compare warp in with barracks queuing? Yes, you wish you had warp in queue. Toss wishes they had nexus that stopped all ground harass, the highest dps unit in game, ability to repair, ability from zerg to go from 100 to 200 in less than a minute. I fail t o understand how analyzing this mechanics and saying they are superior proves in any way how they are imbalanced. Is planetary fortress imbalanced? No, because T units are supposedly less mobile and cant be defending everywhere at once, besides they don't have warp in. Is 300 army push from zerg OP? No because their units are less cost efficient, they are better as an offensive than defensive race, etc. Stop with the bullshit of comparing casters, warp in with queing, and so on and so forth. And if you do it, you should mention all other aspects they affect. Toss doesn't have PF, neither sensor towers, neither siege tanks, neither AA turrets, which are the best defenses IG. Did you forgot to mention that? How op would be terrans with warp in? It's just ridiculous to even be comparing these mechanics 1on1 as if it provided any useful conclusion. Are you really saying you cannot have a conversation about a few mechanics without discussing the dynamics as they cascade throughout the entire scope of gameplay? Come on, man. Of course it would be ideal for everyone to frame their arguments in such a way that flow-charted a cascading effect on balance throughout every possible element of the game, but we do not work for Blizzard. That is what they do. And I tell you something, they do this. And when they dramatically change a game mechanic, or completely remove an element of the game it is because it is breaking the game from the way they want it to be played. • Insta-cast 8 second AoE snare + AoE damage was game-breaking, so they changed it. • 5 second proxy storms on demand were game breaking, so they changed it. • The 7 minute 2rax (or 3rax all-in) stim timing attack was too demanding to hold, hence they felt it broke early game, so they changed it (Why does the 4gate still exist?).
Cool, now it comes a full 30 seconds later. That just gives them more time to build super saiyan SCVs and more marauders for their attack. It is also incidentally less time than it takes for a Templar to gain enough energy for storm. Personally I don't think that rush was "too demanding to hold" in any matchup, in particular TvZ which is the matchup they were obviously aiming at balancing with that one. And WTF are you complaining about 4 gate for? Every race should have their all ins, and 4 gate is one of the Protoss ones. Just like the SCV allins for Terran and 6 pools and roach ling all ins are for Zerg.
I simply fail to see the reasoning behind a lot of Blizz's patch notes. Getting rid of viking flowers and units spazzing out not only removes a cool little trinket for players to mess around with, but removes defensive advantages in vikings wars (Flowered vikings shoot all at once while a move vikings spread out). Bunker build time is not the secret to balance (Maybe salvage is, wink wink), and I touched on the stim timing.
If I paid 150 gas for a unit I should be able to use it without waiting nearly a full minute of game time. Honestly that is such a long time it is ridiculous. It also ruins PvZ completely, now my only option is literally either collosus or all in before collosus is necessary.
On March 04 2011 04:31 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:14 dala wrote:
This is a necessary patch. Storming of mineral lines is way too powerful. Storming mineral lines? That basically never happens in pro games.. also you can just run the workers away. Storm doesn't exactly one shot. Also a little correction to OP. If you destroy a pylon that powers warping in units, the warp gate cooldown is not reset. You get a cooldown but no units.
Technically storm does 80 damage. That is one shotting lol. Also I have seen it used before in pro games to great effect, since if you factor in both reaction time and worker movement time it almost always = dead workers. That being said, there is no way in hell any sober Blizzard employee would specifically think "Hey, I think the reason why the entire game is imbalanced is because of how you can warp in a High Templar with a warp prism and then storm the opponent's mineral line. They should have to build them in their own base and wait 44 seconds before they can storm the mineral line, and have to carry them in the warp prism. I just solved Starcraft, now Dustin Browder will give me a hug and a raise".
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On March 04 2011 04:20 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 04:04 tehemperorer wrote:
So then don't remove KA, change it, but don't remove it... Why though? • Without the mobius reactor Terran waits 88 seconds for an EMP after the Ghost is ordered from a Barracks. The Ghost spawns from the Barracks in which is was ordered from. This is usually not where the Ghost needs to be. • With the mobius reactor Terran waits 40 seconds for an EMP after the Ghost is ordered from a Barracks. The unit proximity remains the same, of course. • Without the KA Protoss waits 49 seconds for a Psi-Storm after the HT is ordered from a Warpgate. The HT can be spawned anywhere a psi-field is present. • With the KA Protoss waits 5 seconds for a Psi-Storm after the HT is ordered from a Warpgate. The unit proximity remains the same, of course. I believe it is because of the Warpgate mechanic that the KA is not needed.
It's b/c of WG that KA is needed - if you had to wait 45s for a HT to walk from base to meet the army there wouldn't be a need for KA. I still think being able to warp in feedback is very powerful at least. Toss will just adjust to stopping drops with feedback on medivac and a few stalkers/charglots. They'll still storm armies by getting HTs earlier.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 04 2011 04:31 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2011 04:14 dala wrote:
This is a necessary patch. Storming of mineral lines is way too powerful. Storming mineral lines? That basically never happens in pro games.. also you can just run the workers away. Storm doesn't exactly one shot. Also a little correction to OP. If you destroy a pylon that powers warping in units, the warp gate cooldown is not reset. You get a cooldown but no units.
No, the OP is correct, it actually is reset and you can warp in immediately somewhere else.
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On March 04 2011 04:20 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 04:04 tehemperorer wrote:
So then don't remove KA, change it, but don't remove it... Why though? • Without the mobius reactor Terran waits 88 seconds for an EMP after the Ghost is ordered from a Barracks. The Ghost spawns from the Barracks in which is was ordered from. This is usually not where the Ghost needs to be. • With the mobius reactor Terran waits 40 seconds for an EMP after the Ghost is ordered from a Barracks. The unit proximity remains the same, of course. • Without the KA Protoss waits 49 seconds for a Psi-Storm after the HT is ordered from a Warpgate. The HT can be spawned anywhere a psi-field is present. • With the KA Protoss waits 5 seconds for a Psi-Storm after the HT is ordered from a Warpgate. The unit proximity remains the same, of course. I believe it is because of the Warpgate mechanic that the KA is not needed.
Let's also compare another two things of both races and proceed to try to make them equal disregarding everything else.
Terran from the Command center has mules, PF, scan and also can lift it up loading 4 scvs. That's not fair imo. Protoss only has chronoboost. Protoss should have another 3 things to make those equal. Or remove 3 from Terran. Should also work, seems fair.
Also, early game units. Toss doesn't have cool abilities researchable early game. Where's the charge for 50/50 ? Or blink in the cybernetics core like T has on the tech lab? That's not fair, it should be equal. Protoss has to get twilight council and pay huge amount of resources and time to get some fancy upgrades, that T gets much earlier for a much cheaper price. Not fair at all! That should be changed.
/s
See how what you're doing makes no sense at all? Please, refrain from posting if all you can do is comparing 2 kinds of units / mechanics, or whatever similarity they have, without mentioning how it affects the races overall. It's pointless and just creates useless discussions.
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On March 04 2011 04:20 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 04:04 tehemperorer wrote:
So then don't remove KA, change it, but don't remove it... Why though? • Without the mobius reactor Terran waits 88 seconds for an EMP after the Ghost is ordered from a Barracks. The Ghost spawns from the Barracks in which is was ordered from. This is usually not where the Ghost needs to be. • With the mobius reactor Terran waits 40 seconds for an EMP after the Ghost is ordered from a Barracks. The unit proximity remains the same, of course. • Without the KA Protoss waits 49 seconds for a Psi-Storm after the HT is ordered from a Warpgate. The HT can be spawned anywhere a psi-field is present. • With the KA Protoss waits 5 seconds for a Psi-Storm after the HT is ordered from a Warpgate. The unit proximity remains the same, of course. I believe it is because of the Warpgate mechanic that the KA is not needed.
Well, ghosts and ht aren't particularly comparable. They come out at different times, move at different speeds and use different spells.
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On March 04 2011 04:35 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 04:20 TimeSpiral wrote:On March 04 2011 04:04 tehemperorer wrote:
So then don't remove KA, change it, but don't remove it... Why though? • Without the mobius reactor Terran waits 88 seconds for an EMP after the Ghost is ordered from a Barracks. The Ghost spawns from the Barracks in which is was ordered from. This is usually not where the Ghost needs to be. • With the mobius reactor Terran waits 40 seconds for an EMP after the Ghost is ordered from a Barracks. The unit proximity remains the same, of course. • Without the KA Protoss waits 49 seconds for a Psi-Storm after the HT is ordered from a Warpgate. The HT can be spawned anywhere a psi-field is present. • With the KA Protoss waits 5 seconds for a Psi-Storm after the HT is ordered from a Warpgate. The unit proximity remains the same, of course. I believe it is because of the Warpgate mechanic that the KA is not needed. Let's also compare another two things of both races and proceed to try to make them equal disregarding everything else. Terran from the Command center has mules, PF, scan and also can lift it up loading 4 scvs. That's not fair imo. Protoss only has chronoboost. Protoss should have another 3 things to make those equal. Or remove 3 from Terran. Should also work, seems fair. Also, early game units. Toss doesn't have cool abilities researchable early game. Where's the charge for 50/50 ? Or blink in the cybernetics core like T has on the tech lab? That's not fair, it should be equal. Protoss has to get twilight council and pay huge amount of resources and time to get some fancy upgrades, that T gets much earlier for a much cheaper price. Not fair at all! That should be changed. /s See how what you're doing makes no sense at all? Please, refrain from posting if all you can do is comparing 2 kinds of units / mechanics, or whatever similarity they have, without mentioning how it affects the races overall. It's pointless and just creates useless discussions.
I can say that OP agrees with you 
However what makes me really sad is that there are still so many people implying milions things I said, when I actually said very few.
So as I said, I agree with you (and my next thread Im currently working on will adress this issues) but there is still one big flaw in your post.
Yeah, Terrans have fancy upgrades. Stim.. Concussive shell...
But there is one huge diffrence between what I was talking about and about this what you are talking about - because Terrans still have to think.
Terrans can not say:
"Hmm... Looks bad, Protoss is coming up on my ramp... What would be helpful? I know! Stim and Concussive shell...
5...
4...
3...
2...
1...
[T] + [A] + [click] = win"
I have never said that Storm is imba. and IMHO FG was always better, and unless that missile speed is super slow it will be really best spell in game after patch.
But what I dont like, and what I believe others feel same about, is that my attack that I was planning for last couple of minutes can be even theoretically crushed by clearly worse Protoss who put nearly no thoughts or preparation into his defense.
I dont really care about storm dealing 80 or 60 or 100 dmg. that are just numbers, can be easily adjusted. KA + warp-in was bad mechinc. Thats worse.
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On March 04 2011 04:35 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 04:20 TimeSpiral wrote:On March 04 2011 04:04 tehemperorer wrote:
So then don't remove KA, change it, but don't remove it... Why though? • Without the mobius reactor Terran waits 88 seconds for an EMP after the Ghost is ordered from a Barracks. The Ghost spawns from the Barracks in which is was ordered from. This is usually not where the Ghost needs to be. • With the mobius reactor Terran waits 40 seconds for an EMP after the Ghost is ordered from a Barracks. The unit proximity remains the same, of course. • Without the KA Protoss waits 49 seconds for a Psi-Storm after the HT is ordered from a Warpgate. The HT can be spawned anywhere a psi-field is present. • With the KA Protoss waits 5 seconds for a Psi-Storm after the HT is ordered from a Warpgate. The unit proximity remains the same, of course. I believe it is because of the Warpgate mechanic that the KA is not needed. Let's also compare another two things of both races and proceed to try to make them equal disregarding everything else. Terran from the Command center has mules, PF, scan and also can lift it up loading 4 scvs. That's not fair imo. Protoss only has chronoboost. Protoss should have another 3 things to make those equal. Or remove 3 from Terran. Should also work, seems fair. Also, early game units. Toss doesn't have cool abilities researchable early game. Where's the charge for 50/50 ? Or blink in the cybernetics core like T has on the tech lab? That's not fair, it should be equal. Protoss has to get twilight council and pay huge amount of resources and time to get some fancy upgrades, that T gets much earlier for a much cheaper price. Not fair at all! That should be changed. /s See how what you're doing makes no sense at all? Please, refrain from posting if all you can do is comparing 2 kinds of units / mechanics, or whatever similarity they have, without mentioning how it affects the races overall. It's pointless and just creates useless discussions.
There is SOOO much "fight or flight" response in threads like these. Players see an argument, get threatened, and type some knee-jerk response.
If one cannot see the obvious validity in comparing "time to cast big powerful spell after ordering spell caster" then continuing the argument is pointless with such a person.
My goodness ...
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I am a random player and I think that the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade is way too good. It kind of takes any defensive or offensive preparation out of the game for Protoss when you finally get full High Templar tech (which definitely takes a while). Being able to do a possible max of 80 damage (if your opposition refuses to move their units) on short delayed command, is rather ridiculous.
When I Play Terran or Zerg
When I play Terran or Zerg I know that I have to be spot on with my macro because if I fight a Protoss army and win the battle, what is left over from my army is probably going to die due to High Templars being warped in somewhere and storming the rest of my army. It almost always feels like something (High Templar) that is that cost effective should not be so close to instantly being built.
When Playing Protoss
After I get fully upgraded High Templar I know that I am almost immune to any kind of harass and if I'm losing a battle I can always warp in more templar for more on-demand damage. I feel extremely safe after getting full High Templar tech but I still worry about Ghosts or something (like Mutalisks) sniping my Templar; instead of worrying about my whole base I start to worry about my High Templar dying.
Two interesting question that no one has posed yet (I don't think) are:
Would it be okay if an SCV could build a (maybe salvageable) tower that would apply a cooldown to a barracks and "Call Down" a Ghost to the tower's surrounding location and be able to instantly EMP? If the Protoss player manages to kill all Ghosts before they EMP (like Ghosts can EMP Templar before a battle) the Terran really wouldn't care because they can just "drop" another one and on demand EMP.
Would it be okay if Zerg could spawn an Infestor anywhere (which instantly kills a larva) that they have spread creep and instantly fungal? If a Protoss army is pushing out onto creep the Zerg could start spawning Infestors and chain "Root" the Protoss into place greatly delaying their attack.
I realize that these scenarios aren't exactly 1:1 comparisons, but they're just to make a point. People need to stop saying "Why is Blizzard nerfing Protoss this badly?!" and start asking whether or not they would be okay with the other two races have a similar mechanic, because as it stands right now, 5 second delayed storm is just way too good.
I also agree that Khaydarin Amulet being removed may be a little excessive, but something definitely needs to be done about it. Maybe increasing storm's cost to 80 after the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade has finished (keep it at 75 before) or maybe have High Templar take 10-20 seconds to warp-in instead of a nearly instant 5 (compensate by lowering the Warpgate cooldown).
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On March 04 2011 05:21 Avenok wrote:
I am a random player and I think that the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade is way too good. It kind of takes any defensive or offensive preparation out of the game for Protoss when you finally get full High Templar tech (which definitely takes a while). Being able to do a possible max of 80 damage (if your opposition refuses to move their units) on short delayed command, is rather ridiculous.
When I Play Terran or Zerg
When I play Terran or Zerg I know that I have to be spot on with my macro because if I fight a Protoss army and win the battle, what is left over from my army is probably going to die due to High Templars being warped in somewhere and storming the rest of my army. It almost always feels like something (High Templar) that is that cost effective should not be so close to instantly being built.
When Playing Protoss
After I get fully upgraded High Templar I know that I am almost immune to any kind of harass and if I'm losing a battle I can always warp in more templar for more on-demand damage. I feel extremely safe after getting full High Templar tech but I still worry about Ghosts or something (like Mutalisks) sniping my Templar; instead of worrying about my whole base I start to worry about my High Templar dying.
Two interesting question that no one has posed yet (I don't think) are:
Would it be okay if an SCV could build a (maybe salvageable) tower that would apply a cooldown to a barracks and "Call Down" a Ghost to the tower's surrounding location and be able to instantly EMP? If the Protoss player manages to kill all Ghosts before they EMP (like Ghosts can EMP Templar before a battle) the Terran really wouldn't care because they can just "drop" another one and on demand EMP.
Would it be okay if Zerg could spawn an Infestor anywhere (which instantly kills a larva) that they have spread creep and instantly fungal? If a Protoss army is pushing out onto creep the Zerg could start spawning Infestors and chain "Root" the Protoss into place greatly delaying their attack.
I realize that these scenarios aren't exactly 1:1 comparisons, but they're just to make a point. People need to stop saying "Why is Blizzard nerfing Protoss this badly?!" and start asking whether or not they would be okay with the other two races have a similar mechanic, because as it stands right now, 5 second delayed storm is just way too good.
I also agree that Khaydarin Amulet being removed may be a little excessive, but something definitely needs to be done about it. Maybe increasing storm's cost to 80 after the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade has finished (keep it at 75 before) or maybe have High Templar take 10-20 seconds to warp-in instead of a nearly instant 5 (compensate by lowering the Warpgate cooldown).
Because a random player has seen every side of the argument thinks that High Templar are clearly overpowered, I think everyone on TL should agree with him and realize how foolish we were and how erroneous we were in our ways.
[/thread]
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Sek-Kuar, the fact that you said very few things and made a conclusion that removing the KA amulet was the proper thing to do is the problem many people have. For the 3rd (4th?) time, your analysis is too narrow and the conclusion too simple for an issue that is much broader than a tiny sample of choice comparisons between a few caster units.
@TimeSpiral: Because it's not just 5 seconds, its 5 seconds after the minerals, gas, and time were spent researching everything that goes into the equation.
Example: "My meal at a YummyLunch Restaurant in New York was only $5 and I got it in like 30 seconds!" That statement, while true, ignores the fact that I live in Los Angeles, had to spend money on a plane ticket, take the time to fly to New York, spend money on a cab, AND take the time to drive to a YummyLunch to get to that $5 meal. It also doesn't mention that another person in L.A. habitually drives to another fast food place, buys a ton of crap on the dollar menu, and is able to eat twice that day for the same amount of money I paid for just my the meal. Why would I eat at YummyLunch then in New York? Because somewhere in my journey the value of that single meal, or the quality in other words, outweighs the quality of food that other person got from the dollar menu.
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On March 04 2011 05:34 Geovu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 05:21 Avenok wrote:
I am a random player and I think that the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade is way too good. It kind of takes any defensive or offensive preparation out of the game for Protoss when you finally get full High Templar tech (which definitely takes a while). Being able to do a possible max of 80 damage (if your opposition refuses to move their units) on short delayed command, is rather ridiculous.
When I Play Terran or Zerg
When I play Terran or Zerg I know that I have to be spot on with my macro because if I fight a Protoss army and win the battle, what is left over from my army is probably going to die due to High Templars being warped in somewhere and storming the rest of my army. It almost always feels like something (High Templar) that is that cost effective should not be so close to instantly being built.
When Playing Protoss
After I get fully upgraded High Templar I know that I am almost immune to any kind of harass and if I'm losing a battle I can always warp in more templar for more on-demand damage. I feel extremely safe after getting full High Templar tech but I still worry about Ghosts or something (like Mutalisks) sniping my Templar; instead of worrying about my whole base I start to worry about my High Templar dying.
Two interesting question that no one has posed yet (I don't think) are:
Would it be okay if an SCV could build a (maybe salvageable) tower that would apply a cooldown to a barracks and "Call Down" a Ghost to the tower's surrounding location and be able to instantly EMP? If the Protoss player manages to kill all Ghosts before they EMP (like Ghosts can EMP Templar before a battle) the Terran really wouldn't care because they can just "drop" another one and on demand EMP.
Would it be okay if Zerg could spawn an Infestor anywhere (which instantly kills a larva) that they have spread creep and instantly fungal? If a Protoss army is pushing out onto creep the Zerg could start spawning Infestors and chain "Root" the Protoss into place greatly delaying their attack.
I realize that these scenarios aren't exactly 1:1 comparisons, but they're just to make a point. People need to stop saying "Why is Blizzard nerfing Protoss this badly?!" and start asking whether or not they would be okay with the other two races have a similar mechanic, because as it stands right now, 5 second delayed storm is just way too good.
I also agree that Khaydarin Amulet being removed may be a little excessive, but something definitely needs to be done about it. Maybe increasing storm's cost to 80 after the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade has finished (keep it at 75 before) or maybe have High Templar take 10-20 seconds to warp-in instead of a nearly instant 5 (compensate by lowering the Warpgate cooldown). Because a random player has seen every side of the argument thinks that High Templar are clearly overpowered, I think everyone on TL should agree with him and realize how foolish we were and how erroneous we were in our ways. [/thread]
I hate to say it but most random players (and some reading this may be an exception) do not have a deep understanding of each matchup because they have fragmented their experiences so much by playing random. You cannot play 500 1v1s as random and truly understand things from a Protoss perspective. In the case of the KA removal, your arguments would be less meaningful because to a random player the stakes aren't that high when 1 race changes and the others do not. That's what happens when you don't invest yourself in a particular race.
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On March 04 2011 05:44 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 05:34 Geovu wrote:On March 04 2011 05:21 Avenok wrote:
I am a random player and I think that the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade is way too good. It kind of takes any defensive or offensive preparation out of the game for Protoss when you finally get full High Templar tech (which definitely takes a while). Being able to do a possible max of 80 damage (if your opposition refuses to move their units) on short delayed command, is rather ridiculous.
When I Play Terran or Zerg
When I play Terran or Zerg I know that I have to be spot on with my macro because if I fight a Protoss army and win the battle, what is left over from my army is probably going to die due to High Templars being warped in somewhere and storming the rest of my army. It almost always feels like something (High Templar) that is that cost effective should not be so close to instantly being built.
When Playing Protoss
After I get fully upgraded High Templar I know that I am almost immune to any kind of harass and if I'm losing a battle I can always warp in more templar for more on-demand damage. I feel extremely safe after getting full High Templar tech but I still worry about Ghosts or something (like Mutalisks) sniping my Templar; instead of worrying about my whole base I start to worry about my High Templar dying.
Two interesting question that no one has posed yet (I don't think) are:
Would it be okay if an SCV could build a (maybe salvageable) tower that would apply a cooldown to a barracks and "Call Down" a Ghost to the tower's surrounding location and be able to instantly EMP? If the Protoss player manages to kill all Ghosts before they EMP (like Ghosts can EMP Templar before a battle) the Terran really wouldn't care because they can just "drop" another one and on demand EMP.
Would it be okay if Zerg could spawn an Infestor anywhere (which instantly kills a larva) that they have spread creep and instantly fungal? If a Protoss army is pushing out onto creep the Zerg could start spawning Infestors and chain "Root" the Protoss into place greatly delaying their attack.
I realize that these scenarios aren't exactly 1:1 comparisons, but they're just to make a point. People need to stop saying "Why is Blizzard nerfing Protoss this badly?!" and start asking whether or not they would be okay with the other two races have a similar mechanic, because as it stands right now, 5 second delayed storm is just way too good.
I also agree that Khaydarin Amulet being removed may be a little excessive, but something definitely needs to be done about it. Maybe increasing storm's cost to 80 after the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade has finished (keep it at 75 before) or maybe have High Templar take 10-20 seconds to warp-in instead of a nearly instant 5 (compensate by lowering the Warpgate cooldown). Because a random player has seen every side of the argument thinks that High Templar are clearly overpowered, I think everyone on TL should agree with him and realize how foolish we were and how erroneous we were in our ways. [/thread] I hate to say it but most random players (and some reading this may be an exception) do not have a deep understanding of each matchup because they have fragmented their experiences so much by playing random. You cannot play 500 1v1s as random and truly understand things from a Protoss perspective. In the case of the KA removal, your arguments would be less meaningful because to a random player the stakes aren't that high when 1 race changes and the others do not. That's what happens when you don't invest yourself in a particular race.
I did not include the fact that I am a random player to say "I know so much about all three races" in an obscure way, I said I played random to point out that I don't think I have that much (if any) of a bias toward one of the three individual races. I think some of the posts in this thread are from a Protoss bias (understandably so), which you cannot have when trying to analyze a subject such as this one. Instead of wasting two posts (and trying to turn this into a flame thread) on the fact that I am a random player both of you could have added something to this thread by analyzing / debating what I said, because at the end of the day it is purely my opinion, nothing else.
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