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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 04 2011 05:40 tehemperorer wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Sek-Kuar, the fact that you said very few things and made a conclusion that removing the KA amulet was the proper thing to do is the problem many people have. For the 3rd (4th?) time, your analysis is too narrow and the conclusion too simple for an issue that is much broader than a tiny sample of choice comparisons between a few caster units. @TimeSpiral: Because it's not just 5 seconds, its 5 seconds after the minerals, gas, and time were spent researching everything that goes into the equation. Example: + Show Spoiler + "My meal at a YummyLunch Restaurant in New York was only $5 and I got it in like 30 seconds!" That statement, while true, ignores the fact that I live in Los Angeles, had to spend money on a plane ticket, take the time to fly to New York, spend money on a cab, AND take the time to drive to a YummyLunch to get to that $5 meal. It also doesn't mention that another person in L.A. habitually drives to another fast food place, buys a ton of crap on the dollar menu, and is able to eat twice that day for the same amount of money I paid for just my the meal. Why would I eat at YummyLunch then in New York? Because somewhere in my journey the value of that single meal, or the quality in other words, outweighs the quality of food that other person got from the dollar menu.
I'm pretty sure that having the tech tree open is a given in the argument, is it not?
Okay, well, let's try again. I will put the post you're referring to below in a spoiler tag.
+ Show Spoiler +On March 04 2011 04:20 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 04:04 tehemperorer wrote:
So then don't remove KA, change it, but don't remove it... Why though? • Without the mobius reactor Terran waits 88 seconds for an EMP after the Ghost is ordered from a Barracks. The Ghost spawns from the Barracks in which is was ordered from. This is usually not where the Ghost needs to be. • With the mobius reactor Terran waits 40 seconds for an EMP after the Ghost is ordered from a Barracks. The unit proximity remains the same, of course. • Without the KA Protoss waits 49 seconds for a Psi-Storm after the HT is ordered from a Warpgate. The HT can be spawned anywhere a psi-field is present. • With the KA Protoss waits 5 seconds for a Psi-Storm after the HT is ordered from a Warpgate. The unit proximity remains the same, of course. I believe it is because of the Warpgate mechanic that the KA is not needed.
Read it again. Maybe a little slower this time ;P
+ Show Spoiler +I'm busting your balls here. Don't get all butthurt.
It is, in fact, five seconds from when you order the HT from a Warpgate if you have the KA upgrade. No one can legitimately say that is incorrect. It is a minimum of 8 times faster than EMP, PDD, Hunter Seeker Missile, Yamato, Fungal, or Neural Parasite even when the Ghost, Raven, BC, or Infestor have their respective starting energy buffs.
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Caster balance specifically is equal....but there's more to each race than just casters.
Protoss Lacks mobility. This is why you see HT's warped in when drops and muta harrass kicks in. We can't get back to our base as fast as Mutas can if we DT drop. We also can't see drops coming a mile away without multiple observers which can get viking/raven sniped, which also takes away from vital robo production time. Terran can drop a sensory tower and see drops coming from quite a far distance.
I almost wouldn't mind a cooldown on storm if the observer was made from somewhere other than the robo facility.
EMP removes storm energy and also outranges all protoss armies.
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Well, of course, if stim research is longer that would totally be a buff, because it gives terrans more time to build SCVs and Marauders... some of you are just ridiculous.
How about we nerf it and make it instant? It will no longer give them ANY time to make SCVs and Marauders during the upgrade! Take that terrans! I bet all terrans will QQ about such a huge nerf!
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On March 04 2011 04:58 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 04:35 Apolo wrote:On March 04 2011 04:20 TimeSpiral wrote:On March 04 2011 04:04 tehemperorer wrote:
So then don't remove KA, change it, but don't remove it... Why though? • Without the mobius reactor Terran waits 88 seconds for an EMP after the Ghost is ordered from a Barracks. The Ghost spawns from the Barracks in which is was ordered from. This is usually not where the Ghost needs to be. • With the mobius reactor Terran waits 40 seconds for an EMP after the Ghost is ordered from a Barracks. The unit proximity remains the same, of course. • Without the KA Protoss waits 49 seconds for a Psi-Storm after the HT is ordered from a Warpgate. The HT can be spawned anywhere a psi-field is present. • With the KA Protoss waits 5 seconds for a Psi-Storm after the HT is ordered from a Warpgate. The unit proximity remains the same, of course. I believe it is because of the Warpgate mechanic that the KA is not needed. Let's also compare another two things of both races and proceed to try to make them equal disregarding everything else. Terran from the Command center has mules, PF, scan and also can lift it up loading 4 scvs. That's not fair imo. Protoss only has chronoboost. Protoss should have another 3 things to make those equal. Or remove 3 from Terran. Should also work, seems fair. Also, early game units. Toss doesn't have cool abilities researchable early game. Where's the charge for 50/50 ? Or blink in the cybernetics core like T has on the tech lab? That's not fair, it should be equal. Protoss has to get twilight council and pay huge amount of resources and time to get some fancy upgrades, that T gets much earlier for a much cheaper price. Not fair at all! That should be changed. /s See how what you're doing makes no sense at all? Please, refrain from posting if all you can do is comparing 2 kinds of units / mechanics, or whatever similarity they have, without mentioning how it affects the races overall. It's pointless and just creates useless discussions. I can say that OP agrees with you  However what makes me really sad is that there are still so many people implying milions things I said, when I actually said very few. So as I said, I agree with you (and my next thread Im currently working on will adress this issues) but there is still one big flaw in your post. Yeah, Terrans have fancy upgrades. Stim.. Concussive shell... But there is one huge diffrence between what I was talking about and about this what you are talking about - because Terrans still have to think. Terrans can not say: "Hmm... Looks bad, Protoss is coming up on my ramp... What would be helpful? I know! Stim and Concussive shell... 5... 4... 3... 2... 1... [T] + [A] + [click] = win" I have never said that Storm is imba. and IMHO FG was always better, and unless that missile speed is super slow it will be really best spell in game after patch. But what I dont like, and what I believe others feel same about, is that my attack that I was planning for last couple of minutes can be even theoretically crushed by clearly worse Protoss who put nearly no thoughts or preparation into his defense. I dont really care about storm dealing 80 or 60 or 100 dmg. that are just numbers, can be easily adjusted. KA + warp-in was bad mechinc. Thats worse.
It's not that simple... 1st of all, if he teched to storm 1 of 2 things happened
1) if its mid game, it's usually not viable mainly for reasons of time and gas cost, and that's the terran's fault for not punishing him for that risky move.
2) if it's late game, then skill level is not that different, otherwise the better player would have seen flaws in the play of the worse player that he could take advantage, when he puts pressure, if he feels it, the better player can just go win the game.
As for the preparation, i can't see how you think T prepares more than toss for an attack. Toss took the time to get some cyb core units, get robo and some colossus, and transition as safely as possible to HT. Get enough bases to support that, enough gates, upgrades for units already out and to come, etc. I don't see how you can say either put more preparation or effort than the other in the confrontation.
PS: your country is very beautiful
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On March 04 2011 05:40 tehemperorer wrote:
Sek-Kuar, the fact that you said very few things and made a conclusion that removing the KA amulet was the proper thing to do is the problem many people have. For the 3rd (4th?) time, your analysis is too narrow and the conclusion too simple for an issue that is much broader than a tiny sample of choice comparisons between a few caster units.
@TimeSpiral: Because it's not just 5 seconds, its 5 seconds after the minerals, gas, and time were spent researching everything that goes into the equation.
Example: "My meal at a YummyLunch Restaurant in New York was only $5 and I got it in like 30 seconds!" That statement, while true, ignores the fact that I live in Los Angeles, had to spend money on a plane ticket, take the time to fly to New York, spend money on a cab, AND take the time to drive to a YummyLunch to get to that $5 meal. It also doesn't mention that another person in L.A. habitually drives to another fast food place, buys a ton of crap on the dollar menu, and is able to eat twice that day for the same amount of money I paid for just my the meal. Why would I eat at YummyLunch then in New York? Because somewhere in my journey the value of that single meal, or the quality in other words, outweighs the quality of food that other person got from the dollar menu.
Well I was talking about everything important and real. Dont fall for illusion that because in this thread there are hundreds of Protoss saying that T are OP, and hundreds of T saying P are OP, hundreds of P teching T how to play, and hundreds of T teching P how to play - that it is something real.
OFC I could start discussion like - Ghost is low tech, emp can not kill, is only supportive, very situational even in TvP and useless everywhere else...
HT is high tech, storm can kill, deal dmg slower, can be cast multiple time on single unit, is dmg dealer etc...
Those might be objective facts - but to compare it, that is 100% subjective. How would jyou measure difference between storm killing and emp dealing only supportive dmg?
So when you base your arguments on objective facts which you subjectively compare afterwards, its subjective in the end. So its no more than therycrafting. And I said I dont like it.
So rather than making thread that anyone can come and say everything is stupid BS (in other words everything is my opinion), I rather stated arguments to make sure to achieve my main goal - to explain people difference between production rate and production time, and how can it affect things like KA.
So now it seems like people finally understand that HT build time is not 50 sec, which imo is quite huge succes, and that they know there is at least one reason to remove KA - OFC some people think its not reason good enough, some agree with me... but I didnt really expect to end this discussion.
Im actually quite satisfied with what Ive done here
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@OP
The main thing you forget is that HT is a CORE DPS of protoss amry, while other casters are just support for main army.
You take ghosts from terran army - they can be ok, zerg as well. But if you take HTs from toss suddenly protoss will get overrun with all kind of sh1t from other races (colossus? oh well what after 15 corruptors/vikings).
50 sec waiting time may be too much.
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On March 04 2011 05:57 TimeSpiral wrote:
It is, in fact, five seconds from when you order the HT from a Warpgate if you have the KA upgrade. No one can legitimately say that is incorrect. It is a minimum of 8 times faster than EMP, PDD, Hunter Seeker Missile, Yamato, Fungal, or Neural Parasite even when the Ghost, Raven, BC, or Infestor have their respective starting energy buffs.
I won't argue that it takes 5 seconds if you have a warpgate ready. Hell, even if you don't have a warpgate ready, it will probably take less than 40 seconds to get an HT ready to storm.
Just keep in mind that "it takes 5 seconds to get a HT when I need one" remains a best case scenario, while saying that you can have a ghost ready in 40 seconds is ALWAYS true (yes, having to cancel an unit from a tech labs barracks will cost you, but that doesn't matter for this).
If there was data about this, I'm sure the average time to get HT would be much lower than for other races' casters.
You aren't wrong (since you said "order") but I just feel like a distinction must be made since people have been throwing around "if you need an HT NOW, it takes 5 seconds to get".
However, it is true that even in the worst case (i.e: just warped a whole round of DT or HT), you WILL get an HT with storm within 50 seconds with KA, which is the same time it would take an infestor. So, in a real situation: you will be able to have an HT with storm up to 8 times faster than a ghost with EMP and worst case is 10 seconds later than a ghost.
Does this chance anything? Not really. But I'm still a bit iffy about isolating "order time" when everyone's talking about "I need an HT now".
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luckily timespiral does not make decisions or this game would look like WC2, where races are just renamed and restyled, yet essentially are the exact same.
You are trying to justify your blatant terran bias by using all these fancy timings and stuff to prove yourself correct.
Why should the HT be balanced (in terms of time to use ability) when it is a much higher tech than the ghost?
To get a ghost academy you need a barracks. To get a templar archives you need a gateway, cybercore, twlight council. Then to even get the units core abilities that are being discussed you need two long upgrades. But im sure this has been pointed out you multiple times. Ghost are terrans first caster, sentrys being toss's early caster.
So why are you advocating this whole " time to use spell balance" when that it is clear that HT should be much stronger than ghost. I may as well argue that phoenix should be balanced to BC's. They are both air units with energy, which seems to be the extent of the logic you are using in justifyng this.
Also you saying "Protoss waits 5 seconds for Storm), while in context is true, it is a very one sided statement which makes it sound like protoss never has to wait more than 5 seconds for a storm. Surely you know that is not the case.
Also note that ghosts, with a nicely placed EMP, will do far more damage than a HT will.
conclusions :
KA needs a nerf, not a removal
Trying to balance ghosts and HT's based on time to use ability is illogical, and even laughable.. HT is supposed to be much stronger.
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On March 04 2011 06:08 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 05:40 tehemperorer wrote:
Sek-Kuar, the fact that you said very few things and made a conclusion that removing the KA amulet was the proper thing to do is the problem many people have. For the 3rd (4th?) time, your analysis is too narrow and the conclusion too simple for an issue that is much broader than a tiny sample of choice comparisons between a few caster units.
@TimeSpiral: Because it's not just 5 seconds, its 5 seconds after the minerals, gas, and time were spent researching everything that goes into the equation.
Example: "My meal at a YummyLunch Restaurant in New York was only $5 and I got it in like 30 seconds!" That statement, while true, ignores the fact that I live in Los Angeles, had to spend money on a plane ticket, take the time to fly to New York, spend money on a cab, AND take the time to drive to a YummyLunch to get to that $5 meal. It also doesn't mention that another person in L.A. habitually drives to another fast food place, buys a ton of crap on the dollar menu, and is able to eat twice that day for the same amount of money I paid for just my the meal. Why would I eat at YummyLunch then in New York? Because somewhere in my journey the value of that single meal, or the quality in other words, outweighs the quality of food that other person got from the dollar menu. Well I was talking about everything important and real. Dont fall for illusion that because in this thread there are hundreds of Protoss saying that T are OP, and hundreds of T saying P are OP, hundreds of P teching T how to play, and hundreds of T teching P how to play - that it is something real. OFC I could start discussion like - Ghost is low tech, emp can not kill, is only supportive, very situational even in TvP and useless everywhere else... HT is high tech, storm can kill, deal dmg slower, can be cast multiple time on single unit, is dmg dealer etc... Those might be objective facts - but to compare it, that is 100% subjective. How would jyou measure difference between storm killing and emp dealing only supportive dmg? So when you base your arguments on objective facts which you subjectively compare afterwards, its subjective in the end. So its no more than therycrafting. And I said I dont like it. So rather than making thread that anyone can come and say everything is stupid BS (in other words everything is my opinion), I rather stated arguments to make sure to achieve my main goal - to explain people difference between production rate and production time, and how can it affect things like KA. So now it seems like people finally understand that HT build time is not 50 sec, which imo is quite huge succes, and that they know there is at least one reason to remove KA - OFC some people think its not reason good enough, some agree with me... but I didnt really expect to end this discussion. Im actually quite satisfied with what Ive done here
It's certainly a ripe topic, for sure. The Ghost versus HT argument has been raging since day one.
But another thing worth mentioning here is that you don't really "produce" HTs in the sense that someone produces Thors, or Colossus.
The Templars are Warpgate tech units, so if you want some HTs, you just warp in a round of HTs. You don't "start HT production" you just get a round of them. You probably only want 4-6, maybe a few more in some cases.
So yes, you're correct in your analysis of production rate versus production time but that is not really relevant here.
Just fought a big battle? Need a round of HTs? No problem! w+shift+click+click+click+click+click and voila! See what I'm saying?
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Bulgaria1171 Posts
I didn't see anyone reffering to this:
Ghost is attack unit with 4 (FOUR!!) Abilities with no special armor!!
And templar is not attacking with just two abilities and ofc light unit annihilated by hellions and rines and really vulnerable to sniper shots from ghosts... so some1 will say it's hard to snipe each HT but it's hard to feedback each ghost as well...
If u want to compare those two units u better do not!
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On March 04 2011 06:30 TheAura wrote:
luckily timespiral does not make decisions or this game would look like WC2, where races are just renamed and restyled, yet essentially are the exact same.
You are trying to justify your blatant terran bias by using all these fancy timings and stuff to prove yourself correct.
Why should the HT be balanced (in terms of time to use ability) when it is a much higher tech than the ghost?
To get a ghost academy you need a barracks. To get a templar archives you need a gateway, cybercore, twlight council. Then to even get the units core abilities that are being discussed you need two long upgrades. But im sure this has been pointed out you multiple times. Ghost are terrans first caster, sentrys being toss's early caster.
So why are you advocating this whole " time to use spell balance" when that it is clear that HT should be much stronger than ghost. I may as well argue that phoenix should be balanced to BC's. They are both air units with energy, which seems to be the extent of the logic you are using in justifyng this.
Also you saying "Protoss waits 5 seconds for Storm), while in context is true, it is a very one sided statement which makes it sound like protoss never has to wait more than 5 seconds for a storm. Surely you know that is not the case.
Also note that ghosts, with a nicely placed EMP, will do far more damage than a HT will.
conclusions :
KA needs a nerf, not a removal
Trying to balance ghosts and HT's based on time to use ability is illogical, and even laughable.. HT is supposed to be much stronger.
I wrote my thread way I wrote it because I tuly believe that using similar units should require similar skills. IMO in terms of planning.
If there are people who believe that Storm is not good enough compared to EMP, then Storm should be buffed. But KA should be removed either way, so we can achieve state when using HT requires something more than just gas harvesting (or whatever) skills.
So simply said I was focused on time because thats what determines how much you must think ahead to use that strategy. As I said, I simply believe that current state when Protoss have to think lesser is simply not good thing.
So if we find Storm too weak in future, it should be buffed. But KA should never be brought back ever. Its simply mechanic that is killing part of strategic decisions.
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Bulgaria1171 Posts
sek-kuar no offence but me and many posters in this thread are pretty sure that you have just lost too many games to templars and u can not handle them properly, so now you are trying to convince everyone that KA has to be removed.
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On March 04 2011 06:30 TheAura wrote:
luckily timespiral does not make decisions or this game would look like WC2, where races are just renamed and restyled, yet essentially are the exact same.
You are trying to justify your blatant terran bias by using all these fancy timings and stuff to prove yourself correct.
Why should the HT be balanced (in terms of time to use ability) when it is a much higher tech than the ghost?
To get a ghost academy you need a barracks. To get a templar archives you need a gateway, cybercore, twlight council. Then to even get the units core abilities that are being discussed you need two long upgrades. But im sure this has been pointed out you multiple times. Ghost are terrans first caster, sentrys being toss's early caster.
So why are you advocating this whole " time to use spell balance" when that it is clear that HT should be much stronger than ghost. I may as well argue that phoenix should be balanced to BC's. They are both air units with energy, which seems to be the extent of the logic you are using in justifyng this.
Also you saying "Protoss waits 5 seconds for Storm), while in context is true, it is a very one sided statement which makes it sound like protoss never has to wait more than 5 seconds for a storm. Surely you know that is not the case.
Also note that ghosts, with a nicely placed EMP, will do far more damage than a HT will.
conclusions :
KA needs a nerf, not a removal
Trying to balance ghosts and HT's based on time to use ability is illogical, and even laughable.. HT is supposed to be much stronger.
Some do not see the logic in comparing "on demand abilities" and that's fine. We don't need to agree on that. You say you don't want "symmetry" you want balance, which while being kinda funny, is also fine. But aren't you essentially complaining that all other casters have a starting energy buff and so should the HT? lol.
HTs are supposed to be stronger than Ghosts? Okay, that's fine again. Let's look at the Battlecruiser, which is supposed to be stronger than the HT, right? Or let's look at the Raven, sure. W/e. It doesn't matter.
Battlecrsuier
• Without the energy upgrade one must wait 178 seconds to use the Yamato canon after ordering a battlecruiser. It is a single target DPS ability.
• With the energy upgrade one must wait 223 seconds to use the Yamato canon after ordering a battlecruiser. It is a single target DPS ability. HA!
Well, maybe the Raven is a closer comparison ...
• Without the energy upgrade one must wait 178 seconds to use the Hunter Seeker Missile after ordering a raven. It is an AoE spell that does massive damage, and can be dodged.
• With the energy upgrade one must wait 223 seconds to use the Hunter Seeker Missile after ordering a raven. It is a single target DPS ability.
Compare either one of those to the 5 second storm, the 88 seconds storm without the upgrade, or the worst case scenarios 50 second storm with the upgrade - not matter what angle you look at it from it is freaking ell oh ell.
Making the comparison between on-demand spells is pretty logical, and it really doesn't matter which one you choose. Storm is the fastest by a million miles and everyone knows it. Even without the Amulet it is the fastest.
Do I want WC2? Gimme a break ...
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On March 04 2011 06:48 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 06:30 TheAura wrote:
luckily timespiral does not make decisions or this game would look like WC2, where races are just renamed and restyled, yet essentially are the exact same.
You are trying to justify your blatant terran bias by using all these fancy timings and stuff to prove yourself correct.
Why should the HT be balanced (in terms of time to use ability) when it is a much higher tech than the ghost?
To get a ghost academy you need a barracks. To get a templar archives you need a gateway, cybercore, twlight council. Then to even get the units core abilities that are being discussed you need two long upgrades. But im sure this has been pointed out you multiple times. Ghost are terrans first caster, sentrys being toss's early caster.
So why are you advocating this whole " time to use spell balance" when that it is clear that HT should be much stronger than ghost. I may as well argue that phoenix should be balanced to BC's. They are both air units with energy, which seems to be the extent of the logic you are using in justifyng this.
Also you saying "Protoss waits 5 seconds for Storm), while in context is true, it is a very one sided statement which makes it sound like protoss never has to wait more than 5 seconds for a storm. Surely you know that is not the case.
Also note that ghosts, with a nicely placed EMP, will do far more damage than a HT will.
conclusions :
KA needs a nerf, not a removal
Trying to balance ghosts and HT's based on time to use ability is illogical, and even laughable.. HT is supposed to be much stronger. I wrote my thread way I wrote it because I tuly believe that using similar units should require similar skills. IMO in terms of planning. If there are people who believe that Storm is not good enough compared to EMP, then Storm should be buffed. But KA should be removed either way, so we can achieve state when using HT requires something more than just gas harvesting (or whatever) skills. So simply said I was focused on time because thats what determines how much you must think ahead to use that strategy. As I said, I simply believe that current state when Protoss have to think lesser is simply not good thing. So if we find Storm too weak in future, it should be buffed. But KA should never be brought back ever. Its simply mechanic that is killing part of strategic decisions.
They are not similar units though. HT are supposed be alot better.
While i am not fully grasping your point about terms of planning, i believe you are referring to how quickly we can decide to get a unit from the WG if we want it? Each rach is different in this sense, zerg arguably has the least planning if they keep an eye on army composition and location..
I think you may underestimate how a poor choice of units from a round of warp ins can really hurt you.
Also your main beef seems to be more with how the protoss race is set up, warpgates that is. That is a different topic though.
Do you really think that one of protoss' best units should be nerfed this much. Think of the investment for it. And when you finally get it, its useless for 45 seconds.
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On March 04 2011 06:58 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 06:30 TheAura wrote:
luckily timespiral does not make decisions or this game would look like WC2, where races are just renamed and restyled, yet essentially are the exact same.
You are trying to justify your blatant terran bias by using all these fancy timings and stuff to prove yourself correct.
Why should the HT be balanced (in terms of time to use ability) when it is a much higher tech than the ghost?
To get a ghost academy you need a barracks. To get a templar archives you need a gateway, cybercore, twlight council. Then to even get the units core abilities that are being discussed you need two long upgrades. But im sure this has been pointed out you multiple times. Ghost are terrans first caster, sentrys being toss's early caster.
So why are you advocating this whole " time to use spell balance" when that it is clear that HT should be much stronger than ghost. I may as well argue that phoenix should be balanced to BC's. They are both air units with energy, which seems to be the extent of the logic you are using in justifyng this.
Also you saying "Protoss waits 5 seconds for Storm), while in context is true, it is a very one sided statement which makes it sound like protoss never has to wait more than 5 seconds for a storm. Surely you know that is not the case.
Also note that ghosts, with a nicely placed EMP, will do far more damage than a HT will.
conclusions :
KA needs a nerf, not a removal
Trying to balance ghosts and HT's based on time to use ability is illogical, and even laughable.. HT is supposed to be much stronger. Some do not see the logic in comparing "on demand abilities" and that's fine. We don't need to agree on that. You say you don't want "symmetry" you want balance, which while being kinda funny, is also fine. But aren't you essentially complaining that all other casters have a starting energy buff and so should the HT? lol. HTs are supposed to be stronger than Ghosts? Okay, that's fine again. Let's look at the Battlecruiser, which is supposed to be stronger than the HT, right? Or let's look at the Raven, sure. W/e. It doesn't matter. Battlecrsuier• Without the energy upgrade one must wait 178 seconds to use the Yamato canon after ordering a battlecruiser. It is a single target DPS ability. • With the energy upgrade one must wait 223 seconds to use the Yamato canon after ordering a battlecruiser. It is a single target DPS ability. HA! Well, maybe the Raven is a closer comparison ... • Without the energy upgrade one must wait 178 seconds to use the Hunter Seeker Missile after ordering a raven. It is an AoE spell that does massive damage, and can be dodged. • With the energy upgrade one must wait 223 seconds to use the Hunter Seeker Missile after ordering a raven. It is a single target DPS ability. Compare either one of those to the 5 second storm, the 88 seconds storm without the upgrade, or the worst case scenarios 50 second storm with the upgrade - not matter what angle you look at it from it is freaking ell oh ell. Making the comparison between on-demand spells is pretty logical, and it really doesn't matter which one you choose. Storm is the fastest by a million miles and everyone knows it. Even without the Amulet it is the fastest. Do I want WC2? Gimme a break ...
a nice quick response for oyu as i have to go: raven is slightly lower tech.. BC is comparable tech
both are not useless when you first get them. BC's do great damage without yamato. Ravens still provide good abilities when you first get them. HT's sit around and wait when you first get them (without KA). Why should they be essentially useless for 50 seconds?
And dont say they can use feedback because that is a waste of a tech tree and its only used situationally.
Storm sohuld be the fastest on demand spell. Its the strongest caster and it is the only way for it to really do good damage.
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On March 04 2011 06:37 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 06:08 Sek-Kuar wrote:On March 04 2011 05:40 tehemperorer wrote:
Sek-Kuar, the fact that you said very few things and made a conclusion that removing the KA amulet was the proper thing to do is the problem many people have. For the 3rd (4th?) time, your analysis is too narrow and the conclusion too simple for an issue that is much broader than a tiny sample of choice comparisons between a few caster units.
@TimeSpiral: Because it's not just 5 seconds, its 5 seconds after the minerals, gas, and time were spent researching everything that goes into the equation.
Example: "My meal at a YummyLunch Restaurant in New York was only $5 and I got it in like 30 seconds!" That statement, while true, ignores the fact that I live in Los Angeles, had to spend money on a plane ticket, take the time to fly to New York, spend money on a cab, AND take the time to drive to a YummyLunch to get to that $5 meal. It also doesn't mention that another person in L.A. habitually drives to another fast food place, buys a ton of crap on the dollar menu, and is able to eat twice that day for the same amount of money I paid for just my the meal. Why would I eat at YummyLunch then in New York? Because somewhere in my journey the value of that single meal, or the quality in other words, outweighs the quality of food that other person got from the dollar menu. Well I was talking about everything important and real. Dont fall for illusion that because in this thread there are hundreds of Protoss saying that T are OP, and hundreds of T saying P are OP, hundreds of P teching T how to play, and hundreds of T teching P how to play - that it is something real. OFC I could start discussion like - Ghost is low tech, emp can not kill, is only supportive, very situational even in TvP and useless everywhere else... HT is high tech, storm can kill, deal dmg slower, can be cast multiple time on single unit, is dmg dealer etc... Those might be objective facts - but to compare it, that is 100% subjective. How would jyou measure difference between storm killing and emp dealing only supportive dmg? So when you base your arguments on objective facts which you subjectively compare afterwards, its subjective in the end. So its no more than therycrafting. And I said I dont like it. So rather than making thread that anyone can come and say everything is stupid BS (in other words everything is my opinion), I rather stated arguments to make sure to achieve my main goal - to explain people difference between production rate and production time, and how can it affect things like KA. So now it seems like people finally understand that HT build time is not 50 sec, which imo is quite huge succes, and that they know there is at least one reason to remove KA - OFC some people think its not reason good enough, some agree with me... but I didnt really expect to end this discussion. Im actually quite satisfied with what Ive done here It's certainly a ripe topic, for sure. The Ghost versus HT argument has been raging since day one. But another thing worth mentioning here is that you don't really "produce" HTs in the sense that someone produces Thors, or Colossus. The Templars are Warpgate tech units, so if you want some HTs, you just warp in a round of HTs. You don't "start HT production" you just get a round of them. You probably only want 4-6, maybe a few more in some cases. So yes, you're correct in your analysis of production rate versus production time but that is not really relevant here. Just fought a big battle? Need a round of HTs? No problem! w+shift+click+click+click+click+click and voila! See what I'm saying?
On the meanwhile, T has been producing units nonstop during the whole battle, and Z will remax even faster, producing units as supply gets free. See what i'm saying?
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On March 04 2011 07:10 TheAura wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 06:58 TimeSpiral wrote:On March 04 2011 06:30 TheAura wrote:
luckily timespiral does not make decisions or this game would look like WC2, where races are just renamed and restyled, yet essentially are the exact same.
You are trying to justify your blatant terran bias by using all these fancy timings and stuff to prove yourself correct.
Why should the HT be balanced (in terms of time to use ability) when it is a much higher tech than the ghost?
To get a ghost academy you need a barracks. To get a templar archives you need a gateway, cybercore, twlight council. Then to even get the units core abilities that are being discussed you need two long upgrades. But im sure this has been pointed out you multiple times. Ghost are terrans first caster, sentrys being toss's early caster.
So why are you advocating this whole " time to use spell balance" when that it is clear that HT should be much stronger than ghost. I may as well argue that phoenix should be balanced to BC's. They are both air units with energy, which seems to be the extent of the logic you are using in justifyng this.
Also you saying "Protoss waits 5 seconds for Storm), while in context is true, it is a very one sided statement which makes it sound like protoss never has to wait more than 5 seconds for a storm. Surely you know that is not the case.
Also note that ghosts, with a nicely placed EMP, will do far more damage than a HT will.
conclusions :
KA needs a nerf, not a removal
Trying to balance ghosts and HT's based on time to use ability is illogical, and even laughable.. HT is supposed to be much stronger. Some do not see the logic in comparing "on demand abilities" and that's fine. We don't need to agree on that. You say you don't want "symmetry" you want balance, which while being kinda funny, is also fine. But aren't you essentially complaining that all other casters have a starting energy buff and so should the HT? lol. HTs are supposed to be stronger than Ghosts? Okay, that's fine again. Let's look at the Battlecruiser, which is supposed to be stronger than the HT, right? Or let's look at the Raven, sure. W/e. It doesn't matter. Battlecrsuier• Without the energy upgrade one must wait 178 seconds to use the Yamato canon after ordering a battlecruiser. It is a single target DPS ability. • With the energy upgrade one must wait 223 seconds to use the Yamato canon after ordering a battlecruiser. It is a single target DPS ability. HA! Well, maybe the Raven is a closer comparison ... • Without the energy upgrade one must wait 178 seconds to use the Hunter Seeker Missile after ordering a raven. It is an AoE spell that does massive damage, and can be dodged. • With the energy upgrade one must wait 223 seconds to use the Hunter Seeker Missile after ordering a raven. It is a single target DPS ability. Compare either one of those to the 5 second storm, the 88 seconds storm without the upgrade, or the worst case scenarios 50 second storm with the upgrade - not matter what angle you look at it from it is freaking ell oh ell. Making the comparison between on-demand spells is pretty logical, and it really doesn't matter which one you choose. Storm is the fastest by a million miles and everyone knows it. Even without the Amulet it is the fastest. Do I want WC2? Gimme a break ... a nice quick response for oyu as i have to go: raven is slightly lower tech.. BC is comparable tech both are not useless when you first get them. BC's do great damage without yamato. Ravens still provide good abilities when you first get them. HT's sit around and wait when you first get them (without KA). Why should they be essentially useless for 50 seconds? And dont say they can use feedback because that is a waste of a tech tree and its only used situationally. Storm sohuld be the fastest on demand spell. Its the strongest caster and it is the only way for it to really do good damage.
It is still the fastest even without the Amulet, by a lot (~50-88 seconds depending on WG cooldown).
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Battlecrsuier
• Without the energy upgrade one must wait 178 seconds to use the Yamato canon after ordering a battlecruiser. It is a single target DPS ability.
• With the energy upgrade one must wait 223 seconds to use the Yamato canon after ordering a battlecruiser. It is a single target DPS ability. HA!
Well, maybe the Raven is a closer comparison ...
• Without the energy upgrade one must wait 178 seconds to use the Hunter Seeker Missile after ordering a raven. It is an AoE spell that does massive damage, and can be dodged.
• With the energy upgrade one must wait 223 seconds to use the Hunter Seeker Missile after ordering a raven. It is a single target DPS ability.
Do you really think that's a fair comparison?
Battlecruisers are a giant, hulking, armored, flying unit with an fast attack speed hitting both air and ground. That's without it's Yamato ability.
Ravens are flying detectors with plenty of utility and tricks up their sleeve without even bothering to research Seeker Missile.
High Templar are mostly useless, except for the occasional feedback, without their expensive Psionic Storm ability. Personally, I think 44.5 game seconds to be sitting on units that do not help your army is too much. It's essentially idle supply, in the sense that your money is idle when you queue units. I see both sides of the argument, and I still feel like there is a middle ground.
I think some of you guys are really reaching for the stars in order to legitimize your argument for/against the amulet removal, because some of these comparisons are quite nonsensical.
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On March 04 2011 06:58 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 06:30 TheAura wrote:
luckily timespiral does not make decisions or this game would look like WC2, where races are just renamed and restyled, yet essentially are the exact same.
You are trying to justify your blatant terran bias by using all these fancy timings and stuff to prove yourself correct.
Why should the HT be balanced (in terms of time to use ability) when it is a much higher tech than the ghost?
To get a ghost academy you need a barracks. To get a templar archives you need a gateway, cybercore, twlight council. Then to even get the units core abilities that are being discussed you need two long upgrades. But im sure this has been pointed out you multiple times. Ghost are terrans first caster, sentrys being toss's early caster.
So why are you advocating this whole " time to use spell balance" when that it is clear that HT should be much stronger than ghost. I may as well argue that phoenix should be balanced to BC's. They are both air units with energy, which seems to be the extent of the logic you are using in justifyng this.
Also you saying "Protoss waits 5 seconds for Storm), while in context is true, it is a very one sided statement which makes it sound like protoss never has to wait more than 5 seconds for a storm. Surely you know that is not the case.
Also note that ghosts, with a nicely placed EMP, will do far more damage than a HT will.
conclusions :
KA needs a nerf, not a removal
Trying to balance ghosts and HT's based on time to use ability is illogical, and even laughable.. HT is supposed to be much stronger. Some do not see the logic in comparing "on demand abilities" and that's fine. We don't need to agree on that. You say you don't want "symmetry" you want balance, which while being kinda funny, is also fine. But aren't you essentially complaining that all other casters have a starting energy buff and so should the HT? lol. HTs are supposed to be stronger than Ghosts? Okay, that's fine again. Let's look at the Battlecruiser, which is supposed to be stronger than the HT, right? Or let's look at the Raven, sure. W/e. It doesn't matter. Battlecrsuier• Without the energy upgrade one must wait 178 seconds to use the Yamato canon after ordering a battlecruiser. It is a single target DPS ability. • With the energy upgrade one must wait 223 seconds to use the Yamato canon after ordering a battlecruiser. It is a single target DPS ability. HA! Well, maybe the Raven is a closer comparison ... • Without the energy upgrade one must wait 178 seconds to use the Hunter Seeker Missile after ordering a raven. It is an AoE spell that does massive damage, and can be dodged. • With the energy upgrade one must wait 223 seconds to use the Hunter Seeker Missile after ordering a raven. It is a single target DPS ability. Compare either one of those to the 5 second storm, the 88 seconds storm without the upgrade, or the worst case scenarios 50 second storm with the upgrade - not matter what angle you look at it from it is freaking ell oh ell. Making the comparison between on-demand spells is pretty logical, and it really doesn't matter which one you choose. Storm is the fastest by a million miles and everyone knows it. Even without the Amulet it is the fastest. Do I want WC2? Gimme a break ...
Wait, is this serious? I can't even begin to point out all the ways this is dumb (I'd probably start with comparing a Capital Ship to a caster)...
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On March 04 2011 07:22 Thorrissey wrote:Show nested quote +Battlecrsuier
• Without the energy upgrade one must wait 178 seconds to use the Yamato canon after ordering a battlecruiser. It is a single target DPS ability.
• With the energy upgrade one must wait 223 seconds to use the Yamato canon after ordering a battlecruiser. It is a single target DPS ability. HA!
Well, maybe the Raven is a closer comparison ...
• Without the energy upgrade one must wait 178 seconds to use the Hunter Seeker Missile after ordering a raven. It is an AoE spell that does massive damage, and can be dodged.
• With the energy upgrade one must wait 223 seconds to use the Hunter Seeker Missile after ordering a raven. It is a single target DPS ability. Do you really think that's a fair comparison? Battlecruisers are a giant, hulking, armored, flying unit with an fast attack speed hitting both air and ground. That's without it's Yamato ability. Ravens are flying detectors with plenty of utility and tricks up their sleeve without even bothering to research Seeker Missile. High Templar are mostly useless, except for the occasional feedback, without their expensive Psionic Storm ability. Personally, I think 44.5 game seconds to be sitting on units that do not help your army is too much. It's essentially idle supply, in the sense that your money is idle when you queue units. I see both sides of the argument, and I still feel like there is a middle ground. I think some of you guys are really reaching for the stars in order to legitimize your argument for/against the amulet removal, because some of these comparisons are quite nonsensical.
So far the HT, in no way shape or form, can be compared to the Ghost, Raven, BC, or the Infestor, nor are any abilities in the game comparable to Psi-Storm and nor are any of the starting energy buff upgrades comparable.
So, if this is true, why does this thread even exist? If there is nothing to discuss or compare or draw opinion and conclusions from, then what is there?
I'm just going to come out and say it: Yes, it is okay to make comparisons, voice opinions, draw up numbers and charts, many of these things help put the entire discussion in context. I know I'm not speaking infallible truths here, no one is. But the knee-jerk "zomg my race is in trouble" reactions are outrageous.
HT tech is not useless without storm! Feedback is bad ass, while situational, and if you get caught in that 30 second (rlt) window in between the HT warp-in and the Storm being available, and you didn't scout this vulnerability coming and preemptively morph an Archon isn't that just being punished for being unprepared?
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EPT
