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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Tech: Raven slightly faster than HT. Inherent Abilities: Raven has detection/mobility advantage Actives: Feedback/PDD are situational support abilities. Archon warp/Turret are also situational. HSM and Psy Storm are nearly the same, with HSM being harder to use. In fact, HSM is never used. You want to compare the two abilities and say Storm should be more like HSM? Really? By making the comparison you are essentially saying Storm should not exist. | ||
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TimeSpiral
United States1010 Posts
On March 04 2011 07:38 cLutZ wrote: Raven vs. high Templar Tech: Raven slightly faster than HT. Inherent Abilities: Raven has detection/mobility advantage Actives: Feedback/PDD are situational support abilities. Archon warp/Turret are also situational. HSM and Psy Storm are nearly the same, with HSM being harder to use. In fact, HSM is never used. You want to compare the two abilities and say Storm should be more like HSM? Really? By making the comparison you are essentially saying Storm should not exist. That's actually an intelligent response. I'm stunned (for 4 seconds, not 8, lol). No, I do not think Storm should be made more like HSM. I'm just saying with all things considered, even without the Amulet, Storm is considerably faster than the other "big-boy" spells after the caster is ordered. With the amulet storm was something like 35 times faster to cast than HSM after the caster is ordered and that assumes the Raven has it's reactor. | ||
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Thorrissey
United States29 Posts
So far the HT, in no way shape or form, can be compared to the Ghost, Raven, BC, or the Infestor, nor are any abilities in the game comparable to Psi-Storm and nor are any of the starting energy buff upgrades comparable. So, if this is true, why does this thread even exist? If there is nothing to discuss or compare or draw opinion and conclusions from, then what is there? I'm just going to come out and say it: Yes, it is okay to make comparisons, voice opinions, draw up numbers and charts, many of these things help put the entire discussion in context. I know I'm not speaking infallible truths here, no one is. But the knee-jerk "zomg my race is in trouble" reactions are outrageous. HT tech is not useless without storm! Feedback is bad ass, while situational, and if you get caught in that 30 second (rlt) window in between the HT warp-in and the Storm being available, and you didn't scout this vulnerability coming and preemptively morph an Archon isn't that just being punished for being unprepared? I never said that comparisons, themselves were bad at all. Hell, I think they're downright necessary when contemplating any kind of balance decision. I do not, however, think that comparing a High Templar to a Raven and a Battlecruiser is sound logic though. At all. I think even you would agree. You're right, feedback is TOTALLY bad ass! I use it all the time! It is not nearly enough to justify a High Templar's existence in an army against your 'meat and potatoes' damage-dealing units. Feedback is terribly situational, and unless you're going up against something extremely rare, it is not going to swing many battles in your favor. Psi Storm is their bread and butter, and I don't really think anyone would argue that. I do think that 30 real-time seconds is a bit much. It really widens the timing window between your colossus getting ruined by vikings, and your storm tech ready and open for business. We're talking late game TvP here, with tons of dead space behind mineral lines in most of the ladder maps. How on earth are you supposed to see every drop coming? Sure storm dropping mineral lines through warp-ins can be a pain in the ass for Terran to deal with, but so can three multi-pronged drops against a naturally immobile Protoss force. Again, I'm not crying about Toss, or Terran here, I think there are things that every race has that is tough to deal with, but fast storms seem downright necessary to winning against Terran, late-game. | ||
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Sek-Kuar
Czech Republic593 Posts
On March 04 2011 07:06 TheAura wrote: They are not similar units though. HT are supposed be alot better. While i am not fully grasping your point about terms of planning, i believe you are referring to how quickly we can decide to get a unit from the WG if we want it? Each rach is different in this sense, zerg arguably has the least planning if they keep an eye on army composition and location.. I think you may underestimate how a poor choice of units from a round of warp ins can really hurt you. Also your main beef seems to be more with how the protoss race is set up, warpgates that is. That is a different topic though. Do you really think that one of protoss' best units should be nerfed this much. Think of the investment for it. And when you finally get it, its useless for 45 seconds. Well that is because you get it 40 seconds before you should ~~~ If HT are supposed to be better, then they should have better skill. And not be less skill-dependent instead. There are some aspects that RTS games should have. If you reduce economical spects, you get WC3. If you reduce this, its not even RTS in this sense. Honestly when I see ppl saying that all they want is KA, that they dont want storm buff instead or something like this, I just feel its all about desire of being able to fix poor decision making in 5 sec. But that is hurting this game. IMO its more in RTS spirit to have stronger storm that requires RTS skills rather than have weaker storm that doesnt really require a lot. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
As for the topic itself, here are my cries: For me it's for sure not an obvious nerf, and in that regard, removing the amulet is too extreme. Defending T drops is my main concern, my second concern would be that EMPs without amulet, are not only good, but devastating, and them having a radius of damage, it becomes really hard to separate all HT's without them getting caught by the radius of EMP. Even with KA, we see plenty of protoss going back to Colossus when they see no vikings but some ghosts. I hope Blizzard looks into PTR statistics as well as they can so they don't take a bad decision on this. | ||
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Mentalizor
Denmark1596 Posts
On March 04 2011 04:20 TimeSpiral wrote: Why though? • Without the mobius reactor Terran waits 88 seconds for an EMP after the Ghost is ordered from a Barracks. The Ghost spawns from the Barracks in which is was ordered from. This is usually not where the Ghost needs to be. • With the mobius reactor Terran waits 40 seconds for an EMP after the Ghost is ordered from a Barracks. The unit proximity remains the same, of course. • Without the KA Protoss waits 49 seconds for a Psi-Storm after the HT is ordered from a Warpgate. The HT can be spawned anywhere a psi-field is present. • With the KA Protoss waits 5 seconds for a Psi-Storm after the HT is ordered from a Warpgate. The unit proximity remains the same, of course. I believe it is because of the Warpgate mechanic that the KA is not needed. Did you know... it will take an orange and an apple about the same amount of time to grow? No? Well, the thing is... Once they are ready for concumption you need to peel the skin of an orange - where you can plainly eat the apple. This is not fair. They are both fruits growing on trees - so naturally they should be identical. If Blizzard somehow doesn't interfere with apples being OP compared to oranges I'd might aswell quit drinking my morning OJ... *sigh* | ||
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ExoD
United States37 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On March 04 2011 08:15 Mentalizor wrote: Did you know... it will take an orange and an apple about the same amount of time to grow? No? Well, the thing is... Once they are ready for concumption you need to peel the skin of an orange - where you can plainly eat the apple. This is not fair. They are both fruits growing on trees - so naturally they should be identical. If Blizzard somehow doesn't interfere with apples being OP compared to oranges I'd might aswell quit drinking my morning OJ... *sigh* Here's how you know a Ghost vs HT thread has gone off the rails: people are literally comparing apples to oranges. I think almost certainly that the problem is the combination of KA and warpgate. What would someone say to something like KA giving +20 instead of +25 energy, so it still helps a lot, but you can't just do warp-in storms? I feel like having to have your HTs exposed for so long before they can storm is kind of bad, so maybe having the upgrade is good, just a lesser version of it. However, I'm not sure if it would still be worth buying and waiting for. What do protoss players think abou tit? | ||
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Brutland
United States92 Posts
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Gigadrill
Australia52 Posts
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ibreakurface
United States664 Posts
On March 03 2011 11:48 Zisc wrote: You forgot cyber core. Which makes the total count an even 1000 minerals But yes I agree the time and resources it takes to create high templer justifies their ability to crush a TIER ONE push. HT is meant to be a late-game unit, you should already have a gate, core, and council. If you really want to be bias you can start adding in the cost of probes and the army it takes to defend until late game. This isn't as big a deal as people are making it. HT will still be viable, you just won't be able to warp them in via warp prism and kill an entire mineral line in seconds. Remember HT are created at the start of the production cycle, in a sense all this is doing is making it as if it is created at the end of the cycle, because it will have the ability to storm then. Of course the only disadvantage is it is on the field and has no use other than feedback (which is still a useful spell in any lategame situation.) Just think about what you are all arguing. Because you cannot storm right after warping in, HT's are now useless. That's a silly statement. | ||
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
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goodvibes
Canada51 Posts
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Shanlan
United States41 Posts
Obviously the games are different but not that different. Therefore I don't think removing the amulet will make a huge difference. Lastly, having something now and paying for it later is always better than having something in the future and paying for it now, basic principle of economics. Edit: An argument could be made that the ghost emp's energy removal component puts the HT at a disadvantage in a confrontation, but that's emp related not HT related. HT instant storm puts all bio units at a disadvantage and that is the issue here. | ||
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ZeRoMist
Canada16 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:09 Sek-Kuar wrote: Before I will start about anything, I want to state that there are 2 important questions to consider while talking about this topic: 1) Is removing of Khaydarin amulet going to balance casters/specialists? 2) Is removing of Khaydarin amulet going to balance game? As I have stated this, I will now move on to talk about this 2 different questions separately. 1) BALANCING CASTERS: Before I will start I want to note that there is huge misunderstanding of some specific core mechanics in this game, so I will talk about that first. + Show Spoiler + There are a lot of players saying that HT takes so long to build - usually people say, that it is something like 45 seconds (Warpgate cooldown) and 5 seconds to warp-in. What is a reson behind this? Cooldown is not active before warp-in, but after it. It is part of (reversed) production cycle of previous unit... And OFC Protoss have to wait for previous production cycle to finish... Just like Terrans have too! And in similar fashion (with just special mechanics) Zergs have too! Saying that cooldown of previous unit is part of production time of current unit is about as ridiculous as saying that it: Takes 90 seconds to build Ghost, because you first have to wait 45 seconds for first Ghost to finish... OR It takes 90 seconds to build Infestor because you first have to wait 40 seconds before you larva inject finishes... Sounds ridiculous right? The only difference here is, that while Barrack is training Ghost, its occupied for 45 seconds and then you get Ghost - while when Warpgate is used to get HT, you get him in 5 seconds and then Warpgate is occupied for 45 seconds. Its reversed production cycle, with switched stages of production, nothing more. Instead of getting HT at the end of production cycle, you get him at the start of production cycle. And cooldown is then finishing part of production cycle of just warped-in unit. Cooldown of warpgates is not something unfair for Protoss race, Protoss just have it in different (and actually better) order. So here are facts: If - and only IF - Terran has non-occupied Barrack, he can produce Ghost - and it will take 45 seconds. If - and only IF - Zerg has free larva, he can produce Infestor - and it will take 50 seconds. If - and only IF - Protoss has non-occupied Warpgate, he can produce HT - and it will take 5 seconds. (After build time of 5 seconds, Warpgate will remain occupied for 45 seconds) Note: + Show Spoiler + While Terran can cancel production of previous unit, Warpgate cooldown can not be canceled. This is probably the only disadvantage of this mechanics, balancing reduction of build times to 5 seconds and also teleporting to pylon field. So it is possible to cancel Marauder, and start Ghost, but its not possible to cancel Zealot and start HT - unless its still warping, then you can undeploy Warp Prism (or destroy pylon) to do it. What does this mean? When production is triggered by something, lets say when you notice enemy coming towards you and start producing Ghost, Infestor or HT, it will look like this. If Zerg has free larva, and energy upgrade for Infestors researched, it will take 50 seconds to get Infestor with 75 energy, and then Infestor has to move where is needed. If Terran has non-occupied Barrack, and energy upgrade for Ghosts researched, it will take 45 seconds to get Ghost with 75 energy, and then Ghost has to move where is needed. If Protoss has non-occupied Warpgate, and Khaydarin Amulet is not researched, it will take 49,5 seconds to get HT with 75 energy, and HT will be ready where is needed. Summarization: It takes 45 sec to produce Ghost ready for EMP with energy upgrade. It takes 50 sec to produce Infestor ready for FG with energy upgrade. It takes 49,5 sec to produce HT ready for Storm without energy upgrade. Also note that HT have opportunity to be ready on defined place, while Infestor can theoretically cast FG after 50 sec, but only near his Hatchery. This saves additional time too. Also HT can still use secondary spell (Feedback, Snipe, Infesteds) much earlier. 1) BALANCING CASTERS: So now, lets answer the first question: 1) Is removing of Khaydarin amulet going to balance casters/specialists? Definitelly yes. Without amulet, it will take similar amount of time to get caster/specialist with 75 energy (Ghost = 45, HT = 49,5, Infestor = 50). HT will still have huge advantage of being teleported to where is needed, and also being able to cast secondary spell much earlier, but it is going to be much fairer. 2) BALANCING GAME: And now second question: 2) Is removing of Khaydarin amulet going to balance game? I have no idea. And Im not going to theorycraft here. But there is one thing Im 100% sure about - if we will have similar caster, using similar mechanics and taking similar time to produce, it will be definitely easier to balance game around that... Rather than balancing game around one caster taking 5 sec to cast spell and other taking minute to do same. EDITS: #1 to answer pages 1-3 + Show Spoiler + First, thanks to changing topic name  (>Analysis)Second, to everyone saying that HT nerf should be followed by low-tech unit (Im not going to say "tiers") buff - I agree. Third, to everyone who said that diversity is important - I agree, I just dont think that this kind of diversity (Protoss needs 5 sec to do something that Zerg needs 50+ seconds to do) is good thing. And final, to everyone saying that cooldown of previous unit affect current unit - you are wrong. It affect "production rate", and in SC2 production rate =/= prodution time. For example reactored Factory can build 4 Helions in minute, but it doesnt mean that production time of Helion is reduced to 15 seconds. It only doubles "production rate". Another example: Zerg can get 10 Ultralisk from one Hatchery per minute (with no stockpiled larvae)- thats "production rate". Production time is always 70 seconds. Warpgate timeline: 0:05 HT created (1) 0:45 cooldown expires 0:50 HT created (2) 1:30 cooldown expires 1:35 HT created (3) 2:15 cooldown expires Barrack with Tech Lab timeline: 0:45 Ghost created (1) 1:30 Ghost created (2) 2:15 Ghost created (3) So as you can see, you are getting every unit, not just first, with 40 seconds reduced build time. All that cooldown does is keeping same "production rate". But it does not affect production time. the fact that this hurts toss so much is when the game gets to the point where the terran can drop 4 marruaders in the back of your base and kill a shit load of stuff and then when you to deal with that they drop somewhere else. i think the point everyone is missing is that yes colsi and temps or the ball of death is scary but its only scary when its together so drop everywhere and with out being able to warp in hts and zealots to clean it up Toss gets raped cuz besides stalkers our units are slow. iam not saying that this is true for zerg i do think some balance can be done there maybe hydra health but for terran with out having warp in storms there is no winning in the late gate game !! | ||
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Najda
United States3765 Posts
I say 'predictable' because while it may be obvious you're getting collosi, how you get there is not set in stone. | ||
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Novembermike
United States102 Posts
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flexy
United States182 Posts
On March 04 2011 15:41 Najda wrote: So many people are saying the worst part about this patch is that it makes protoss predictable. Was Brood War not predictable? In my opinion, forcing 'predictable' play strengthens the game so it's harder to get away with lucky build order wins. I say 'predictable' because while it may be obvious you're getting collosi, how you get there is not set in stone. agree | ||
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MrBarryObama
Korea (South)141 Posts
Although terran drops will be INSANE to deal with. On March 04 2011 15:44 Novembermike wrote: The problem with this is that nobody has shown that HT are unbalanced. Yes, they're good gainst bio, but bio's good against gateway stuff at the damage they inflict can be mitigated with good micro. There has to be some kind of advantage for each unit. Unless somebody can show that this is an issue of significant imbalance and not just it being something that a lot of terran players have trouble with then I don't see a problem with storm warp ins. This is truthful. HT are the slowest and weakest spellcaster. Yes, they can turn into archons. But as every toss will attest to, we'd rather just have them run away and recharge if only they weren't so damn slow and weak. Also, I've never really seen great ghost use yet. Removing amulet may be too much; perhaps just nerf its boost? Nerf it to +15 or something. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
They are DIFFERENT units, you get them at different times of the game and you certainly get them in different quantities, how many Infestors/Ghosts do you make in a game? Protoss can easily warp in 20+ Templar in a single game all of which can and most likely will only ever cast 1 spell before dieing, how many times does that happen with Infestors/Ghosts? In most cases those units can be easily saved (cloak/burrow), not to mention they do completely DIFFERENT things and used in DIFFERENT ways | ||
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