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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 04 2011 20:26 Mentalizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 18:28 Rayansaki wrote:On March 04 2011 15:27 ZeRoMist wrote:
the fact that this hurts toss so much is when the game gets to the point where the terran can drop 4 marruaders in the back of your base and kill a shit load of stuff and then when you to deal with that they drop somewhere else.
And when you drop the terran he just warps in marines and kill everything right? People seem to forget terran isn't the only race with dropships. In fact, toss drops are even stronger than terran drops because you can also warp in. If terran has no way to defend without moving units why are protoss supposed to just spawn 2 units and destroy a drop worth 5 times more. --------------------------------- >the fact this hurts terran so much is when the game gets to the point where the protoss can drop 2 immortals and warp in 5 zealots in the back of your base and kill a shit load of stuff and then when you to deal with that they drop somewhere else.< What? Medivacs with marines or marauders (with stim obviously) will do MUCH more dmg - MUCH fast - with MUCH better synergy if actually encountered by a small force (like 4 units warping in)... As protoss I really dont want to warp in 4 stalkers (500/200/8) that I know will die. Stalkers' dps is insanely low compared to stimmed m&m. And yes, one round of T production should easilly be able to kill one round of WG units. The whole issue comes down to terran t1 being so strong against protoss t1 that most terran actually rely on this almost entirely. If T went with mech and flying it the KA wouldn't be as much of an issue (yes, I know how storm destroys banshees or vikingflowers - but I reckon you heard about micro?). So to me... This just makes Terran t1 viable from early game --> mid game --> late game --> super late game... I mean... I rarelly play zerg units that will dump alot of supply into lings unless it's for runby's or mineral dumps
firstoff whats the problem with 4 maruaders + medivac beating 4 stalkers? they are the "counter" to stalkers and the cost is slightly higher. also since you are talking about lategame why not warpin more? you should easily have 10+ gateways lategame.
and people really need to get over the "omg stupid terran t1 >>> all!" . warpgate units with their upgrades(both stats and abilites) do perfectly fine . also its a mixed t1 and t3 army since the medivacs are the factor that makes the MM so strong, a pure bio force without medivac support should never be a problem for any P ever .
also terran is somewhat forced into alot of bio play cause of various reasons like mech beeing sick vulnerable ,immobile and counterable or the fact that the marauder outside of the thor and BC is the only unit that could qualify as a "tank" in the T unit lineup.
also dont forget that the vast majority of the P army is gateway stuff too in all matchups with some tech units mixed in. its the same story just that the P tech units are more fighting units that kill all and not support /niche units like the medivac ,viking ,ghost ,hellion or tank. doesnt change the fact that often for example in a bio+medivac+viking vs gateway+collosus army actually the T will spend way more on the tech units then the P .
and stop acting like this is a huge buff to bio or a huge nerf to templars. proactive play can solve 95% of the situations where no instant storm matters and just balances the game in the remaining 5%.
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On March 04 2011 18:28 Rayansaki wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 15:27 ZeRoMist wrote:
the fact that this hurts toss so much is when the game gets to the point where the terran can drop 4 marruaders in the back of your base and kill a shit load of stuff and then when you to deal with that they drop somewhere else.
And when you drop the terran he just warps in marines and kill everything right? People seem to forget terran isn't the only race with dropships. In fact, toss drops are even stronger than terran drops because you can also warp in. If terran has no way to defend without moving units why are protoss supposed to just spawn 2 units and destroy a drop worth 5 times more. --------------------------------- >the fact this hurts terran so much is when the game gets to the point where the protoss can drop 2 immortals and warp in 5 zealots in the back of your base and kill a shit load of stuff and then when you to deal with that they drop somewhere else.<
Protoss tends to have much weaker drops than Terran does. A marine has about the same dps as a stalker despite costing half as much, so just going by damage density Terran has the advantage. Combine that with the fact that Terran dropships are actually a legitimate combat unit and Terran drops are incredibly potent because of this fact. IIRC a two ship drop with all marines (16 marines + 2 medivacs) will kill 10 stalkers (same supply, more cost) while only losing half the marines. Terran drops have the advantage on most gateway units in terms of efficiency.
Also, Terran has very potent base defense options. Sensor tower allows them to see any dropships incoming, missile turrets have ridiculous dps and can seriously punish something for just flying over it and pdf is the best defensive structure in the game. There's no reason for a terran base to be completely undefended by the time a drop actually gets there. Either a base is along your angle of attack and you should be able to defend it with your army or it's out of your angle of attack and it should have pdf + turrets to defend it.
There's a reason you don't see protoss drops. An immortal drop is probably the scariest thing we do and it's actually less scary than even a marauder drop. Sure we can warp stuff in, but that generally just means that we get to suicide extra units once their army actually gets there.
Also, watch the Day9 pvt analysis from Germany if you want to see mass marine vs amulet ht. It's kind of ridiculous how it plays out.
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What's with all this "this and that tier1 beats this" whine? This isn't War3 folks. Wasn't one of the great things about SC1 the fact that even low tier units had their place in the lategame? Doesn't anyone love the fact Marines were the staple unit of most TvZs for pretty much the entire duration of BW?
Terran infantry gets completely smashed until they get their critical upgrades, then usually beat Protoss tier1. This will force the Protoss further up the tech tree, which the terran already did by getting the frikken infantry upgrades.
And it's not like the terran doesn't mix in higher tech units. Medivacs, Vikings and the incredibly expensive Ghosts are all seen in pretty much every lategame TvP.
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where can i get that pvt day9 analysis? is it a daily?
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On March 05 2011 00:22 chasfrank wrote:
What's with all this "this and that tier1 beats this" whine? This isn't War3 folks. Wasn't one of the great things about SC1 the fact that even low tier units had their place in the lategame? Doesn't anyone love the fact Marines were the staple unit of most TvZs for pretty much the entire duration of BW?
Terran infantry gets completely smashed until they get their critical upgrades, then usually beat Protoss tier1. This will force the Protoss further up the tech tree, which the terran already did by getting the frikken infantry upgrades.
And it's not like the terran doesn't mix in higher tech units. Medivacs, Vikings and the incredibly expensive Ghosts are all seen in pretty much every lategame TvP.
If the higher tier stuff doesn't beat the lower tier stuff from terran, then why would toss get their higher tier stuff? This isn't saying that marines should become bad at some point. Marines are always good because they're good in small numbers (drop play, stimming around the map etc) and they're a mineral only unit.
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On March 05 2011 00:30 Novembermike wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 00:22 chasfrank wrote:
What's with all this "this and that tier1 beats this" whine? This isn't War3 folks. Wasn't one of the great things about SC1 the fact that even low tier units had their place in the lategame? Doesn't anyone love the fact Marines were the staple unit of most TvZs for pretty much the entire duration of BW?
Terran infantry gets completely smashed until they get their critical upgrades, then usually beat Protoss tier1. This will force the Protoss further up the tech tree, which the terran already did by getting the frikken infantry upgrades.
And it's not like the terran doesn't mix in higher tech units. Medivacs, Vikings and the incredibly expensive Ghosts are all seen in pretty much every lategame TvP. If the higher tier stuff doesn't beat the lower tier stuff from terran, then why would toss get their higher tier stuff? This isn't saying that marines should become bad at some point. Marines are always good because they're good in small numbers (drop play, stimming around the map etc) and they're a mineral only unit.
Colossi beat all infantry, so do Templars. And marines are not good in small numbers.
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I'm mostly just disappointed that blizzard likes to just ax things rather than reworking them. Same thing happened with flux vanes. Obviously, protoss survived without flux vanes and will probably get by without khaydarin amulet. But still, it seems like its lazy from blizzard and reduces the appeal of the game when you just start chopping out abilities without replacing them with something else.
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to be fair i think the removal of flux vanes was a great choice, the popularity of void rays has actually increased since the "nerf" to their armoured damage and speed upgrade. blizzard hit it right on the head that void rays with that speed upgrade were just too good.
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On March 05 2011 00:35 chasfrank wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 00:30 Novembermike wrote:On March 05 2011 00:22 chasfrank wrote:
What's with all this "this and that tier1 beats this" whine? This isn't War3 folks. Wasn't one of the great things about SC1 the fact that even low tier units had their place in the lategame? Doesn't anyone love the fact Marines were the staple unit of most TvZs for pretty much the entire duration of BW?
Terran infantry gets completely smashed until they get their critical upgrades, then usually beat Protoss tier1. This will force the Protoss further up the tech tree, which the terran already did by getting the frikken infantry upgrades.
And it's not like the terran doesn't mix in higher tech units. Medivacs, Vikings and the incredibly expensive Ghosts are all seen in pretty much every lategame TvP. If the higher tier stuff doesn't beat the lower tier stuff from terran, then why would toss get their higher tier stuff? This isn't saying that marines should become bad at some point. Marines are always good because they're good in small numbers (drop play, stimming around the map etc) and they're a mineral only unit. Colossi beat all infantry, so do Templars. And marines are not good in small numbers.
I'm not sure if you're trolling or what with the marine comment. Marines are amazing in small numbers (8-20). They're high dps, cheap and disposable and they move quickly with stim.
Also, colossi and ht are good against infantry, but they have their own vulnerabilities. Storms can be dodged by higher hp units (hellions and marauders mostly) and colossi have all of the vulnerabilities of air.
EDIT: The main point is that the battles don't turn into ht and colossi vs infantry on a flat plane. Marines are still worth getting after a certain point because you'll have extra minerals and you might as well do something with them. You don't have to send them in with your main army,you can send them to expos or try to snipe tech or do whatever. If you're just looking ot win the big fight you'll probably lose but that doesn't need to be your goal.
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Is there a problem in the TvP matchup with roots in DPS roles?
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Synopsis
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This thread has gone in many directions, most of which are Terrans (like me) breathing a sigh of relief and then getting pissed off when Toss says one of our core strategies is EZ Mode, or tells us to go Mech because they think Terran mech is >= Robo tech. The of course Protoss players are raging because psi-storm was nerfed by 30 real life seconds after ordering the HT (whereas it was currently at 3.5 RL seconds).
I'm starting to believe that there is a underlying problem with the matchup that is causing severe balance issues, and I believe that to be the dynamic between the two races DPS methods.
DPS Roles and the influence on tech patterns
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Terran's primary method of dealing enough DPS to the robust Protoss army is to create mass units. This is necessitated by the fact that the primary DPS role is fulfilled by the Marine; a cheap fast building unit with a medium range g2g and g2a attack. The problem with the Marine is that it is very low health and is extremely susceptible to AoE attacks.
As the game progresses beyond the early game the efficacy of Marines start to dwindle. The Terran player must commit to e tempo based game and invest heavily on Barracks production capabilities, or find a new way to deal enough DPS to the Protoss army.
Protoss does not rely on mass units to deal DPS but rather has potent AoE attack units like the Colossus, High Templar w/ Psi Storm, and the Carrier. With the exception of the Carrier, both the High Templar and the Colossus are extremely symbiotic tech paths to the core mechanic of the Warpgate.
Because Terran relies so heavily on the Marine, and barracks units in general, for so many things it becomes extraordinarily difficult to deal enough DPS once the Marin has been utterly neutralized by either the Colossus or the High Templar.
I don't really have an answer, nor am I going to continue down this path until others join in on this aspect of the conversation. Is it possible that the Protoss primary DPS units, being later game tech, are creating a scenario where they neutralize their opponents DPS units too effectively?
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On March 05 2011 00:52 TimeSpiral wrote:
I don't really have an answer, nor am I going to continue down this path until others join in on this aspect of the conversation. Is it possible that the Protoss primary DPS units, being later game tech, are creating a scenario where they neutralize their opponents DPS units too effectively?
This seems pretty weak to me. Protoss dps is reduced against high hp units and non clumped units, so terran has the ability to react. It might not be possible for a terran going for a heavy early game bio force to react, but if that's the case it's simply a problem with the build and the strategy they are going for, not with the race.
Also, carriers aren't aoe.
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On March 05 2011 00:56 Novembermike wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 00:52 TimeSpiral wrote:
I don't really have an answer, nor am I going to continue down this path until others join in on this aspect of the conversation. Is it possible that the Protoss primary DPS units, being later game tech, are creating a scenario where they neutralize their opponents DPS units too effectively? This seems pretty weak to me. Protoss dps is reduced against high hp units and non clumped units, so terran has the ability to react. It might not be possible for a terran going for a heavy early game bio force to react, but if that's the case it's simply a problem with the build and the strategy they are going for, not with the race. Also, carriers aren't aoe.
Fair enough, I just think this is a decent avenue of thought to explore.
Carriers can attack multiple targets simultaneously, correct? I just see the carrier as a multiple target DPS unit which is essentially the same as AoE, yet slightly different.
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I disagree with the removal of amulet. Since the beginning almost half of the best players in the world have been Terran and while the game has become more balanced than before Protoss make up the lowest percentage of the 3 races in the GSL. Even if late game Protoss were too powerful with amulet the new patch has to take into consideration overall balance as the most important aspect in the game and I feel this new patch hurts Protoss the most.
Also a lot of players who don't play at the pro level including myself in master's struggle with the ever so slow Templar as opposed to the much more noob friendly 1a Collosus. Nerfing Templar makes the game less strategic for us newbs and less interesting for me to watch pros doing warp in storms on GSL.
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Honestly im a little anxious to see how well I will fare late game versus terran without insta storm.......
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On March 05 2011 01:18 KillerPenguin wrote:
I disagree with the removal of amulet. Since the beginning almost half of the best players in the world have been Terran and while the game has become more balanced than before Protoss make up the lowest percentage of the 3 races in the GSL. Even if late game Protoss were too powerful with amulet the new patch has to take into consideration overall balance as the most important aspect in the game and I feel this new patch hurts Protoss the most.
Also a lot of players who don't play at the pro level including myself in master's struggle with the ever so slow Templar as opposed to the much more noob friendly 1a Collosus. Nerfing Templar makes the game less strategic for us newbs and less interesting for me to watch pros doing warp in storms on GSL.
first part is irrelevant/wrong. there is no point in bringing up T or whatever. atm with the current style,meta game and maps i would personally say P is the overall strongest race and def its not in any danger to get too weak,esp not lategame.
that the collosus is a stupid 1a unit is a problem and bad design. but has nothing to do with the templar. also the amulet nerf actually rewards better play more cause it increases the skillcap. and i rather see a pro using templars in shuttles and great foresight and be impressed then seeing a pro warpin a templar and storm like evry random masters player does and think " well evrybody can do that".
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On March 05 2011 01:04 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 00:56 Novembermike wrote:On March 05 2011 00:52 TimeSpiral wrote:
I don't really have an answer, nor am I going to continue down this path until others join in on this aspect of the conversation. Is it possible that the Protoss primary DPS units, being later game tech, are creating a scenario where they neutralize their opponents DPS units too effectively? This seems pretty weak to me. Protoss dps is reduced against high hp units and non clumped units, so terran has the ability to react. It might not be possible for a terran going for a heavy early game bio force to react, but if that's the case it's simply a problem with the build and the strategy they are going for, not with the race. Also, carriers aren't aoe. Fair enough, I just think this is a decent avenue of thought to explore. Carriers can attack multiple targets simultaneously, correct? I just see the carrier as a multiple target DPS unit which is essentially the same as AoE, yet slightly different.
Carriers do damage to one unit per attack. AoE does damage to units in an area. There's pretty much no similarity (IIRC they also attack one unit at a time, but that could be wrong).
On March 05 2011 01:27 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 01:18 KillerPenguin wrote:
I disagree with the removal of amulet. Since the beginning almost half of the best players in the world have been Terran and while the game has become more balanced than before Protoss make up the lowest percentage of the 3 races in the GSL. Even if late game Protoss were too powerful with amulet the new patch has to take into consideration overall balance as the most important aspect in the game and I feel this new patch hurts Protoss the most.
Also a lot of players who don't play at the pro level including myself in master's struggle with the ever so slow Templar as opposed to the much more noob friendly 1a Collosus. Nerfing Templar makes the game less strategic for us newbs and less interesting for me to watch pros doing warp in storms on GSL. first part is irrelevant/wrong. there is no point in bringing up T or whatever. atm with the current style,meta game and maps i would personally say P is the overall strongest race and def its not in any danger to get too weak,esp not lategame.
I don't think there's strong evidence either way. It's certainly not the case that Terran can't win a long game.
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On March 05 2011 00:52 TimeSpiral wrote:
[b]Is there a problem in the TvP matchup with roots in DPS roles?
I don't really have an answer, nor am I going to continue down this path until others join in on this aspect of the conversation. Is it possible that the Protoss primary DPS units, being later game tech, are creating a scenario where they neutralize their opponents DPS units too effectively?
The problem I always saw with the amulet in the matchup is that the Terran cannot effectively make the finishing blow. Instead even if he wins the clash and has a decent amount of units left over, the amulet keeps protoss alive. Any place the Terran decides to take his weakened army he encounters psi storm instantly and probably has no answer. This effectively drags out the matchup unnecessarily where the protoss should have lost especially if he went mass colossi first(hard to regenerate).
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On March 05 2011 01:30 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 00:52 TimeSpiral wrote:
[b]Is there a problem in the TvP matchup with roots in DPS roles?
I don't really have an answer, nor am I going to continue down this path until others join in on this aspect of the conversation. Is it possible that the Protoss primary DPS units, being later game tech, are creating a scenario where they neutralize their opponents DPS units too effectively? The problem I always saw with the amulet in the matchup is that the Terran cannot effectively make the finishing blow. Instead even if he wins the clash and has a decent amount of units left over, the amulet keeps protoss alive. Any place the Terran decides to take his weakened army he encounters psi storm instantly and probably has no answer. This effectively drags out the matchup unnecessarily where the protoss should have lost especially if he went mass colossi first(hard to regenerate).
If the protoss player isn't losing then he shouldn't have lost. The Terran player missing his timing isn't the protoss player's problem.
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EPT
