EPTKhaydarin amulet analysis - Page 38
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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. | ||
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Arcanne
United States1519 Posts
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Goodseed
Korea (South)270 Posts
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MrTortoise
1388 Posts
OP, you speak as if you are incontrovertible, however you place too much emphasis on production time. The fact is that production rates are the same already. When you cnsider the nature of the races and that protoss cannot rally then you see the flip side of the positioning. Also with this change HT will not be warped to the front lines. I am not saying HT is not imba atm - they are strong in the right situations. This change doesnt feel stylistically correct. | ||
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Demarini
United States151 Posts
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Sek-Kuar
Czech Republic593 Posts
On March 05 2011 03:11 Arcanne wrote: I'd be fine if they changed it back to BW. Removing it completely really hurts templars. I agree, 50 seconds to build HT and another ~20 to get energy for storm is IMO better than both 5 sec strom with KA or even 49,5 sec w/o KA. It was really simple back in BW. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On March 05 2011 03:24 Demarini wrote: The biggest problem that people have in understanding the situation, is that it's not "instant storms". You do realize that any decent Toss will never have warpgates on CD, right? I would trade my warpgate anyday for Terran drops, wall-offs, T-1 dps, cheese, stim, static defense, detection, and MULES. Hm, then play terran, that should solve your problem. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On March 05 2011 01:52 ToyotomiXD wrote: Soooooo... Whats the actual chance of them implementing this nerf? 100%? If not then all this speculation and debate could be a complete waste of time. Arguably all speculation is a waste of time :D | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On March 05 2011 02:29 Gatored wrote: If amulet is being removed, then EMP and FG should have to be researched just like storm. 200/200 upgrade. HTs already require a twilight council then their templar building. THEN you have to start storm research. Ghosts require a ghost academy then they pop out with the EMP ability. Infesters, the same as ghosts. Tell 'em ONEGatored | ||
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MrTortoise
1388 Posts
On March 05 2011 03:42 tehemperorer wrote: Arguably all speculation is a waste of time :D Thats just speculation. The other big point that isnt being hammered is that with the change you will have a unit that can do nothing for like 45 secs ... it then has ONE shot and is useless again for ages AND it costs 150 gas | ||
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Nerski
United States1095 Posts
On March 02 2011 04:19 FubsyGamr wrote: The one thing that's tough about this comparison is that the Ghost and Infestor are...in a sense...."protected" until they come out. While the HT takes 49 seconds until it can storm, 44 of those seconds it is vulnerable, to be sniped. The only comparison I can think of is if I could somehow fly a flock of mutas into a Terran's base, see the Barracks that is 1/2-way done producing a Ghost, and be able to snipe that ghost while it is being built. This is the biggest disadvantage to trying to compare these two things, and this is exactly why it's so f-in hard to destroy Zerg larva and eggs. Otherwise, it would be broken. But, if my HT's are sitting there, up at around 68 energy, and they get sniped, well.....then they literally did nothing, and it was literally a 100% waste of minerals, gas, and WG cooldown. If you wanted it to be 'protected' you could always leave 1 gate as as just a gateway and not a warp gate...but of course then you'r significantly delaying storm so...blizzards got a tough job balancing 3 race that have completely different mechanics. | ||
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DusTerr
2520 Posts
On March 05 2011 03:24 Demarini wrote: The biggest problem that people have in understanding the situation, is that it's not "instant storms". You do realize that any decent Toss will never have warpgates on CD, right? I would trade my warpgate anyday for Terran drops, wall-offs, T-1 dps, cheese, stim, static defense, detection, and MULES. wait, wait, wait... Terrans have cheese but Toss doesn't? Seriously tho, you do have drop+warp in reinforcements, FF walls, best t1 dps unit, the only static D that is both aa and ag, invisible detection and CB. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On March 05 2011 03:45 MrTortoise wrote: Thats just speculation. The other big point that isnt being hammered is that with the change you will have a unit that can do nothing for like 45 secs ... it then has ONE shot and is useless again for ages AND it costs 150 gas Goddamn! Touche sir... @BW references: Yeah it was nice back in Brood War... Not because of the amulet but because storm was 10 times more deadly than its diet version in SC2. If you want to make storm like SC1, I'm totally down, but then again, we've already have complaints and nerfs to storm in beta haven't we? | ||
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CellTech
Canada396 Posts
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DrGreen
Poland708 Posts
On March 05 2011 03:49 DusTerr wrote: wait, wait, wait... Terrans have cheese but Toss doesn't? Seriously tho, you do have drop+warp in reinforcements, FF walls, best t1 dps unit, the only static D that is both aa and ag, invisible detection and CB. wait... what? | ||
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Shanlan
United States41 Posts
HTs even after this change would still be very good against zerg. As for terran drops being powerful, protoss can warp in anywhere, its not like terrans can do the same to protoss. As I recall HT drops in BW were really strong, and now you can back it up by warping in an entire army if you wanted to. Example: you bring in 2 warp prisms, one with 2 HTs, drop them, storm the line, warp in zealots/stalkers, then before the army arrives lifts and leaves like terrans do. Advantages, you didn't have to move into position with full warp prisms, so if they were intercepted you would only lose the warp prisms not all your units like a terran or zerg would. You also didn't have to pay for the units until you got there, so if you had gotten attacked at your base on route you could've just warped in the "drop" units at your base, whereas if a terran was attacked while dropping they could not simply teleport their drop units into their base to defend. On these advantages alone the protoss drop mechanism is much more powerful than terran drop mechanism. The "imbalance" between units does not change the "imbalance" of mechanism. I don't think people have fully realized the power of warp-in and how it completely redefines the mobility of the protoss army. | ||
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KillerPenguin
United States516 Posts
On March 05 2011 01:27 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: first part is irrelevant/wrong. there is no point in bringing up T or whatever. atm with the current style,meta game and maps i would personally say P is the overall strongest race and def its not in any danger to get too weak,esp not lategame. There are 15 Protoss players and 27 Terran players in the GSL it's a fact it cannot be wrong. It is also a fact that this ratio has been around throughout the history of the GSL, ladder, and other tournaments. You may think P is now op with the current style, meta game, and maps but that's an opinion and no one cares about either of our opinions I'm using evidence. Why this is not irrelevant. Lets say you had a game of chess but people who pick black get all Knights and a King. Lets say the vast majority of the best players all use Knights and the balance team comes to the conclusion that the Queen is too powerful a piece for the white side and decide to nerf it. Well they would be right, they would be balancing the chess piece, but they would probably be screwing up the balance of the game since it's unlikely that the people who pick Knights are just naturally much better players. | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
On March 05 2011 01:45 Sek-Kuar wrote: While I do think for long time that all discussions in this thread since page ~6 are nothing more than stupid theory crafting, Ill comment this one. If there is Pro Protoss player who plays and plans well, and has his HTs ready, and Bronze Protoss player who simply warp-in HTs just when he realized his mistake (at which point Z could just say: Well I dont have Infestor, guess its GG), there is no really difference between this. Your MULE example makes no sense. When there is Pro terran player, who was ready, and Bronze terran player who just called down MULE, then bronze player will have -270 minerals. So if you can solve emergency problem for free or solve it for 270 minerals, its IMO not really same thing. One way to approach this is to say, if a pro player in his gut knew he needed a high templar to defend a base... put one there early and let him build energy, he'd have 2 storms ready right there for the cost of one HT . A bronze guy would have to warp in 2 HT so he loses 50 minerals 150 gas. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
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bahl sofs tiil
United States233 Posts
On March 05 2011 04:11 KillerPenguin wrote: There are 15 Protoss players and 27 Terran players in the GSL it's a fact it cannot be wrong. It is also a fact that this ratio has been around throughout the history of the GSL, ladder, and other tournaments. You may think P is now op with the current style, meta game, and maps but that's an opinion and no one cares about either of our opinions I'm using evidence. Why this is not irrelevant. Lets say you had a game of chess but people who pick black get all Knights and a King. Lets say the vast majority of the best players all use Knights and the balance team comes to the conclusion that the Queen is too powerful a piece for the white side and decide to nerf it. Well they would be right, they would be balancing the chess piece, but they would probably be screwing up the balance of the game since it's unlikely that the people who pick Knights are just naturally much better players. This is only relevant if you can actually find Protoss players who should be in the GSL but aren't because of imbalance. The numbers themselves mean nothing without some kind of context and explanation behind them. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On March 05 2011 03:24 Demarini wrote: The biggest problem that people have in understanding the situation, is that it's not "instant storms". You do realize that any decent Toss will never have warpgates on CD, right? I would trade my warpgate anyday for Terran drops, wall-offs, T-1 dps, cheese, stim, static defense, detection, and MULES. Suggestion. Roll Terran. What a silly thing to say. I'd trade my raxes and T-1 DPS for warp gates and the best 200 deathball herp derp. | ||
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