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Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 05 2011 07:42 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 07:38 rycho wrote:On March 05 2011 07:35 Dalavita wrote:On March 05 2011 07:26 ReiKo wrote:
MMM/V is dealing with Colossi quite right. There is atleast *some* balance with it. Protoss player suffers like instantly. I don't even understand how can you approve one "imbalance" over another "imbalance". Not to mention how much Protoss gambles by investing into HT and how much Terran can "roll him and push" until HT comes...it's invalid argument, "bro" - and deviating from real problem. Every single TvP lately has been Protoss holding off any early bio aggression with force fields and decimating as soon as the colossi pop up, all the way until they get HTs and chargelots by which point it becomes impossible to do anything, and if you by some miracle win an army battle against a fully teched protoss, he warps in a couple of HTs and storms the shit out of the rest of your army, pretty much instantly killing it. There is not one point anymore in the game where Protoss is weak and scared of dying. well this is just completely ridiculous exaggeration idk why you posted this When you make bullshit statements like "Not to mention how much Protoss gambles by investing into HT and how much Terran can "roll him and push" until HT comes...it's invalid argument, "bro" - and deviating from real problem.", there needs to be a rebuttal. Simple as. I'm willing to set aside TvP issues for now regardless, the discussion is about the amulet upgrade, and it's definitively way to strong in the lategame in its current state. I don't like a full out removal of the ability, but it needs to be changed. Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 07:42 ReiKo wrote:
Maybe I was not clear enought - I don't see reason for calling anyone "newbie" and writing in caps lock.
Will be avoiding discussing with you, it's waste of time.
... Do you not understand english? You make a snide remark about Blizzard being a Terran clan because they added alerts for mules. I pointed out that they also added alerts for chrono boosts and larva injects, and you're just replying with stupidity. Are you taking the piss?
Yeah, I understand it. Question is - do you understand how bad manner you are and...hmm and how your grammar is not Creme de la Creme.. but whatever. Gonna' ignore you and everything is fine, we go on with valid discussion. Keep yelling at people and calling them newbies.
P.S. Yeah, I knew they added it to Chrono Boost and Larva, and I did call them Terran clan because of some Terran buffs they did in past (but it happens you interpreted it as link to MULE warning).
Bye.
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yo guys
to balance this out, shouldn't templars spawn with 25 energy, then keep khydarin in to make them spawn with 50? as it currently stands, the OP's math suggests that WITHOUT an energy upgrade, templars are as quick-to-get-energy as an infestor.
how is that fair? no i'm not trolling, the only saving grace is that of course all races aren't created equal, but... yeah
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On March 05 2011 07:51 Vei wrote:
yo guys
to balance this out, shouldn't templars spawn with 25 energy, then keep khydarin in to make them spawn with 50? as it currently stands, the OP's math suggests that WITHOUT an energy upgrade, templars are as quick-to-get-energy as an infestor.
how is that fair? no i'm not trolling, the only saving grace is that of course all races aren't created equal, but... yeah
obviously that would be the logical conclusion...by that logic.
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On March 05 2011 07:51 Vei wrote:
yo guys
to balance this out, shouldn't templars spawn with 25 energy, then keep khydarin in to make them spawn with 50? as it currently stands, the OP's math suggests that WITHOUT an energy upgrade, templars are as quick-to-get-energy as an infestor.
how is that fair? no i'm not trolling, the only saving grace is that of course all races aren't created equal, but... yeah
You are right, OFC, but that seemed little too harsh to me 
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It is fair because you require to go an entire tech path to go to HT, while Infestation Pit is in the tech path to other stuff (and is kinda earlier).
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On March 05 2011 03:24 Demarini wrote:
The biggest problem that people have in understanding the situation, is that it's not "instant storms". You do realize that any decent Toss will never have warpgates on CD, right? I would trade my warpgate anyday for Terran drops, wall-offs, T-1 dps, cheese, stim, static defense, detection, and MULES.
Then why don't you just play terran, no one is stopping you from playing it. Pretty dumb argument to just list pros that another race has and use that to try to prove a point when there are also cons behind these mechanisms.
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To compare HT with infestor and ghost is like asking the question why nexus cant fly, and hatch cant mutate to sunken colony fortress.
I think the upgrade was too powerfull but I also think removeing it without buffing storm make templairs too weak. Yes in SC2 storm is weak, It can take 2-5 storms to kill a single 75min 25gaz Roach. Sadly everyone will go colossus now.
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On March 05 2011 08:29 Drecky wrote:
To compare HT with infestor and ghost is like asking the question why nexus cant fly, and hatch cant mutate to sunken colony fortress.
I think the upgrade was too powerfull but I also think removeing it without buffing storm make templairs too weak. Yes in SC2 storm is weak, It can take 2-5 storms to kill a single 75min 25gaz Roach. Sadly everyone will go colossus now.
Storm isn't meant to counter every unit. It does a good job against hydras though.
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On March 05 2011 08:35 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 08:29 Drecky wrote:
To compare HT with infestor and ghost is like asking the question why nexus cant fly, and hatch cant mutate to sunken colony fortress.
I think the upgrade was too powerfull but I also think removeing it without buffing storm make templairs too weak. Yes in SC2 storm is weak, It can take 2-5 storms to kill a single 75min 25gaz Roach. Sadly everyone will go colossus now. Storm isn't meant to counter every unit. It does a good job against hydras though.
I think he's comparing it to BW where Storm would kill pretty much any ground unit.
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I'm seriously starting to wonder whether removing Warpgates altogether would be better for Protoss gameplay and game balance in general. All the problems with Protoss seem to be a consequence of the existence of Warpgates and Force Field.
I have this sinking feeling that Blizzard will destroy this game by attempting to balance it through peripheral changes (like the removal of KA or Flux Veins) instead of reconsidering the core design principles causing the perceived imbalances.
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On March 05 2011 08:38 Toadvine wrote:
I'm seriously starting to wonder whether removing Warpgates altogether would be better for Protoss gameplay and game balance in general. All the problems with Protoss seem to be a consequence of the existence of Warpgates and Force Field.
I have this sinking feeling that Blizzard will destroy this game by attempting to balance it through peripheral changes (like the removal of KA or Flux Veins) instead of reconsidering the core design principles causing the perceived imbalances.
Dont worry my next thread will be about some of what you mentioned. But IMO removal of Flux Vane was really needed, that upgrade gave VR speed of harass unit, while they are very good fighters and base destroyers. They were like much stronger mutas with 5 times higher DPS to buildings.
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What the op did not take into account is the tech tree's and research times. An infestor pit is necessary to get to hive, zerg has to get it anyway, fungal requires no research. All terran needs to build a ghost academy, is a barracks, emp does not require research.
Protoss however, has to get a robo in any standard build to have obs (detection) which the other races have built in (scans and overseers from lair). So after getting a robo the toss then needs to get twilight, archive, then research storm, then wait to charge energy, or get amulet if they choose. Any way you slice it fungal or emp can come out far sooner than storm, let alone amulet. All of this should be factored in to the op. Also, when comparing emp to storm it should also be noted that emp counters sentries and does 100 shield damage to all toss units, 20 more damage than storm. Terran can get emp in the early game. Protoss has been balanced harshly because of warp gates and force fields, thats why zealots and stalkers are so much less cost effective than ling roach, or MM. If toss tech is going to be neutered over and over, their base units need to be buffed IMO.
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I really think the observatory needs to come back, being forced into robo tech to play "safe" is the fucking WORST design ever and it rages me (and I play Zerg |: ... )
e-- that or halluc should let you halluc obs for temporary detection, so that hallucination+stargate or twilight would be a viable alternate to robo tech.
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On March 05 2011 09:01 Vei wrote:
I really think the observatory needs to come back, being forced into robo tech to play "safe" is the fucking WORST design ever and it rages me (and I play Zerg |: ... )
e-- that or halluc should let you halluc obs for temporary detection, so that hallucination+stargate or twilight would be a viable alternate to robo tech.
Obs was robo path in BW, it was buffed by removing observatory requirement.
Difference here is that in BW wraiths (ghosts) werent threat early game so it wasnt that required for protoss as for example T needed against DT. But in SC2, banshees deal little more dmg than wraiths used to
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Reborn8u this is verry true. Its ridiculous how easy these expensive gateway units are countered by other races tier1 units. Protos have less options, thats why everyone stick to the colossus ball.
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On March 05 2011 08:38 Toadvine wrote:
I'm seriously starting to wonder whether removing Warpgates altogether would be better for Protoss gameplay and game balance in general. All the problems with Protoss seem to be a consequence of the existence of Warpgates and Force Field.
Seriously? Might as well remove colossus as well, since they cause so much problems.
Warpgates are the very core of protoss gameplay. If they remove that, they'd have to buff the race in some other areas.
Anyhow, simply removing Warpgates wouldn't "fix" balance. The whole freaking race was made with warpgates in mind to begin with.
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On March 05 2011 09:18 Aerakin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 08:38 Toadvine wrote:
I'm seriously starting to wonder whether removing Warpgates altogether would be better for Protoss gameplay and game balance in general. All the problems with Protoss seem to be a consequence of the existence of Warpgates and Force Field. Seriously? Might as well remove colossus as well, since they cause so much problems. Warpgates are the very core of protoss gameplay. If they remove that, they'd have to buff the race in some other areas. Anyhow, simply removing Warpgates wouldn't "fix" balance. The whole freaking race was made with warpgates in mind to begin with.
We all know that.
But balance is not as important as mechanics around which is established. For emaple I know at least 2 ways how could I make SC2 100% balanced in about 10 seconds, however both of them would kill it as a game. People overrate balance.
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they should balance the game in a way that makes gateways and warp gates more of a dynamic decision.
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On March 05 2011 09:39 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 09:18 Aerakin wrote:On March 05 2011 08:38 Toadvine wrote:
I'm seriously starting to wonder whether removing Warpgates altogether would be better for Protoss gameplay and game balance in general. All the problems with Protoss seem to be a consequence of the existence of Warpgates and Force Field. Seriously? Might as well remove colossus as well, since they cause so much problems. Warpgates are the very core of protoss gameplay. If they remove that, they'd have to buff the race in some other areas. Anyhow, simply removing Warpgates wouldn't "fix" balance. The whole freaking race was made with warpgates in mind to begin with. We all know that. But balance is not as important as mechanics around which is established. For emaple I know at least 2 ways how could I make SC2 100% balanced in about 10 seconds, however both of them would kill it as a game. People overrate balance.
The guy apparently didn't, since he proposed that removing warp gates would help balance.
We don't need a 100% balanced game (racial imbalances is what makes the game to begin with). However, big imbalances kill diversity, which is just as bad as 100% balance (which is pretty much only achievable by having all races be the same)
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On March 05 2011 07:55 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 07:51 Vei wrote:
yo guys
to balance this out, shouldn't templars spawn with 25 energy, then keep khydarin in to make them spawn with 50? as it currently stands, the OP's math suggests that WITHOUT an energy upgrade, templars are as quick-to-get-energy as an infestor.
how is that fair? no i'm not trolling, the only saving grace is that of course all races aren't created equal, but... yeah You are right, OFC, but that seemed little too harsh to me
yah lets make a unit that takes 45 seconds to build, costs 50/150 and only puts out a feedback. Let alone 500/550 to research just to make the unit....that makes perfect sense......................
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EPT
