|
Chill: I will now be moderating this thread heavily. Some of the ways people are talking down to each other in here are completely unacceptable. |
On March 05 2011 19:36 Rayansaki wrote:
Sure an emp does more damage, but it can't kill anything. What are you gonna do ? wait for the shields to regenerate so you can take them down again ? HT's storm does actual damage, so it's not even comparable to emp because emp can really only be used as damage in an engagement, while HT's storm can be used to single handedly smash entire packs of units while your army is somewhere else.
Some of the trolling on this thread is truly epic. On page 23, there's a gem by TS claiming that gateway units > rax and there are multiple threads making the arguement that because emp doesn't physically destroy the toss army (beside sthe fact you can't dodge it or mitigate the damage) it isn't even in the same strata as storm.
As to your specific quote rayan, I'm sure you've played enough games to know how your stimmed marines cut through toss armies like butter without spell caster support. It is pretty disgusting that a high tech late game heavy gas unit can neutralize swarms of 50 mineral units. Especially when those units can barely hold their own with slightly more expensive race specific gateway units.
Quite honestly, I'm not sure what you terrans want PvT to be.Toss is already fairly fragile and requires a great deal of good control in the early game to stay alive to various terran options. It's only very recently are we seeing builds that give the initiative back to toss in terms of openings in PvT. it's difficult to understand the fundamental disconnect between how you percieve the effectiveness of your drops, stimmed mnm, banshees (painuser <3) and emp and how Toss users who deal with it percieve it. I suppose months of rolling through tournaments and recieving the slings of every toss and zerg has hardened your hearts. Still it makes it very difficult to take groups seriously when they don't share basic understandings about simple facts of the matchup.
|
Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but wouldn't decreasing the Khaydarin Amulet energy bonus a little (maybe along tweaking the cost and research time) balance out the fact that HTs now deal instant storms? Wouldn't that still keep HT usable relatively quickly and keep the upgrade in the game as other races have, but with the need for a little more HT warp planning than currently without making this planning so long that Colossus play would actually be a generally more desirable unit option (eg. when the KA upgrade gets removed)?
|
Most people here seem to like ideas when they come to nerfing opposing races, hell most of them wouldnt mind having imbalanced matchup if they can win it easily.
When i first heard they are nerfing ht, it was baffling to me. Sure storming enemy is quite poweful, much more than emps that we terrans have. Does that mean that pvt is imbalanced? I dont think so.
As the way I see it, MMM kills gateway. gateway + HT kills MMM, So we have to get ourselfs some ghosts. And then its battle of skill - how many storms toss can throw before his HT get EMPd. Ghost is supporting unit, HT is main dps unit. Basically, the more HT you have the better, while having too much ghosts is a problem. And Blizzard has acknowledged that, so HT are slower, and have that effect while moving to be spotted easily, while ghosts really blend into mmm.
Its also worth mentioning that without storm HT is pretty much useless unit. In the early game, having to wait for 75 energy isnt that of a problem, but late game wise you need every unit as soon as it spawns at max capacity. Ghosts without mobius reactor, are worthless against toss late game. There are so many things happening - dropping, counter dropping, microing, expanding, you really dont have time to check your every single unit if it has enough energy to do something.
|
On March 05 2011 22:34 mystrdat wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but wouldn't decreasing the Khaydarin Amulet energy bonus a little (maybe along tweaking the cost and research time) balance out the fact that HTs now deal instant storms? Wouldn't that still keep HT usable relatively quickly and keep the upgrade in the game as other races have, but with the need for a little more HT warp planning than currently without making this planning so long that Colossus play would actually be a generally more desirable unit option (eg. when the KA upgrade gets removed)?
i can agree with that, so with upgrade the HT start with 70 Energy, no instant storm but fast enough that if you spot a dropship in time you can still defend with HTs. another way of doing it instead of lowering the starting energy is to make HTs have a warpin cooldown on Storm (like 5 seconds).
|
On March 05 2011 04:09 Shanlan wrote:
I don't think people have fully realized the power of warp-in and how it completely redefines the mobility of the protoss army.
I totally agree. at my noob levl its hardly seen but then you are saying balance because of something that is possible but people are not doing.
The point most protoss have about HT is that people are not countering them correctly. T can with emp but thats not the only counter ... reapers are also pretty damn annoying ... as well as simply walking out of the storm.
Currently T builds loads of marines so P goes HT, T then puts them all in a ball and runs at P who storms. T just stands there screaming imba ... if T scayttered troops like he does against z then it all gets v hard ... if T introduces mech (thor no longer has mana) HT utility goes down.
But the big problem is that i dont like collosus. Its such mindless game that makes dealing with drops (used to use warp in HT and FB) annoyingly hard.
|
On March 05 2011 19:36 Rayansaki wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 02:10 Whitewing wrote:On March 05 2011 02:06 Figgy wrote:
Psi Storm is by far the best ability in the game outside of Stim (which is only the best because it's required, terran army is useless without it) . I don't know how anyone can deny this. Ghost EMP doesn't compare in any situation, EMP has a much smaller radius and doesn't do even close to as much damage. Ghosts also can't turn into a much more useful creature once it's energy is gone. It's balanced supposedly because Terran Bio will beat Gateway units in a straight up fight (Which isn't the case with Sentries on the field anyways)
The fact that a High Templar can summon a spell that will either kill half a Terran army or force it to retreat at any point in time in just 5 seconds has been broken for a long time.
The game is also balanced around Blizzard maps. The reason it was mostly okay before was because Protoss simply had a hard time getting to High Templars without dying. With the new GSL maps, if this change doesn't go through Protoss will be winning every GSL until a balance change is done, Terran and Zerg simply have no reliable answer to HTs/Archons at the moment with the amulet upgrade.
You heard it here first. You're actually completely wrong. EMP does 100 damage to shields and nullifys caster energy. Storm does 80 damage if you sit in it for the full duration, and isn't instantaneous. Psi storm has a 1.5 radius, EMP has a radius of 2. So you're completely wrong on both counts. Yeah, 2 ghosts can't form into some uber ghost archon, but after you EMP you can snipe any bio unit, do 20 damage a shot to light, or call down nukes. A unit to unit comparison is stupid, pointless, useless, and you're just completely wrong. Sure an emp does more damage, but it can't kill anything. What are you gonna do ? wait for the shields to regenerate so you can take them down again ? HT's storm does actual damage, so it's not even comparable to emp because emp can really only be used as damage in an engagement, while HT's storm can be used to single handedly smash entire packs of units while your army is somewhere else.
So? All this means in a real engagement is that the ghosts don't scale as well. There are three things that the protoss can do to beat bio. Colossi, Storm or FF. EMP counters two of those and makes it easier to kill the third. Ghosts are a support unit unlike the HT which are core units, but they're still completely useful.
Actually, in a way Ghosts are more similar to sentries (they come out at a similar time, are casters that deal damage etc). HT are really closer to Ravens, which do have an ability that can kill units in an aoe.
|
Something interesting that sort of adds to this thread. If amulet is too good, why does MC decide to warp in mostly melee units and only 1 HT in Byun's main? I think the answer is because storm warpins are avoidable (SCVs run away before many die if you are good), HT can't kill buildings, and marauders aren't killable with storm without big army support. So for those thinking HT offensive warpins are too powerful, I'd say they are usable but also expensive and potentially low damage if the enemy is able to react. Even from slightly far away (stim run = fast though).
oGsMC vs ZeNEXByun
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors2/vod/62031
And as we often (like WhiteRa's drops) see with Protoss "drops" that include zealots and even HT, they are good efforts but usually aren't cost effective. Kind of the opposite of bio drops that didn't have a small army intercepting them. The drop MC does made sense to risk it since he was ahead all game and just wanted to draw attention from the middle of the map, trade men a little, allow his econ lead to build up more, and slow ghosts (luck? did he know academy was there), IMO.
But as far as putting this particular drop under a microscope, aka the numbers, this is what I saw (rewatched the drop like 10 times to try to be as accurate as possible... still it was blurry video and I may be off 1 marine death or something):
Terran lost 10 marines + SCVs total. Only one SCV was killed from storm despite being pulled at last moment, 3 hurt marines died from storm + zealots. Terran also lost the ghost academy (the thing MC concentrated on first),a turret, and 1 ghost.
Protoss on the other hand warped in 3 dark temps, 8 zealots, and 1 High Temp. He lost all of these units and got the warp prism out.
Cost difference:
Protoss lost:
1100 min
400 gas
Terran lost:
900 min
200 gas
So very similar losses on both sides... slightly more expensive for P but Terran did lose ghost production for a time.
So even if you are MC, a base ahead all game, and Terran is at least medium distance to their base for defense, you can't do real damage with even a large drop like this and pure HT + amulet drop-warp-ins aren't the best idea at least according to MC's play in that game.
|
I re-read OP and realized that some of your points are actually fair.
I used the word "balance" whereas I should have avoid it and use something different.
So next time instead of generalizing it with "balance", I will just say that this change is going "to put similar time&strategy&plan&RTSfundaments requirements for use of HT" or something like that. And rather than "balancing game" will say "it is simply going to make game better".
General balance was not what I meant, so Ill take this a s a lesson.
Perhaps after removing that emocional word people will focus more on point rather than on useless theorycrafting about strength of spells or something like that.
So next time 
PS: I still hope next time there wont be even this minority of spam posters ignoring everything before. Only 3 or so people didnt get difference between production rate and production time, and still most of what anyone can see on last pages are discusions based on idea that HT takes 45 sec to build or something like that. Really should have been locked ages ago.
|
On March 05 2011 09:39 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 09:18 Aerakin wrote:On March 05 2011 08:38 Toadvine wrote:
I'm seriously starting to wonder whether removing Warpgates altogether would be better for Protoss gameplay and game balance in general. All the problems with Protoss seem to be a consequence of the existence of Warpgates and Force Field. Seriously? Might as well remove colossus as well, since they cause so much problems. Warpgates are the very core of protoss gameplay. If they remove that, they'd have to buff the race in some other areas. Anyhow, simply removing Warpgates wouldn't "fix" balance. The whole freaking race was made with warpgates in mind to begin with. We all know that. But balance is not as important as mechanics around which is established. For emaple I know at least 2 ways how could I make SC2 100% balanced in about 10 seconds, however both of them would kill it as a game. People overrate balance.
You are those type of guys to say a lot of stuffs but do nothing to deliver it. You are basically saying that you are smarter than the whole blizzard balancing team and most of the pro players. I really hate people like that.
|
HTs are much more powerful than any of the other casters, and they can be created super quickly and wherever you want for easy crisis management, also they don't require hardly any skill to use (unlike the new fungal, or moving a ghost up to EMP without having it get pwnt first by gateway units)
Personally I think they should decrease the damage that storm does to 50, so that it will still 1-shot un micro'd marines after stim, and increase it's damage vs armored by a tad, could be cool if it was a projectile as well, making bio ball a viable option vs toss once storm is out. Don't ever forget about DTs, terran are very unlikely to have a raven floating around in their army at this time in the meta game, so you can use a couple DTs to quickly snipe ghosts if the terran isn't paying perfect attention.
|
On March 06 2011 10:38 CatNzHat wrote:
HTs are much more powerful than any of the other casters, and they can be created super quickly and wherever you want for easy crisis management, also they don't require hardly any skill to use (unlike the new fungal, or moving a ghost up to EMP without having it get pwnt first by gateway units)
Personally I think they should decrease the damage that storm does to 50, so that it will still 1-shot un micro'd marines after stim, and increase it's damage vs armored by a tad, could be cool if it was a projectile as well, making bio ball a viable option vs toss once storm is out. Don't ever forget about DTs, terran are very unlikely to have a raven floating around in their army at this time in the meta game, so you can use a couple DTs to quickly snipe ghosts if the terran isn't paying perfect attention.
Terran units don't attack high templars?
The whole point of storm is be uber effective to small units while ignoring armor.
Bio ball isn't viable after storm is out?
Terrans don't keep ravens around? Or have few scans saved up lategame?
Jeez....
|
United States7483 Posts
On March 06 2011 10:38 CatNzHat wrote:
HTs are much more powerful than any of the other casters, and they can be created super quickly and wherever you want for easy crisis management, also they don't require hardly any skill to use (unlike the new fungal, or moving a ghost up to EMP without having it get pwnt first by gateway units)
Personally I think they should decrease the damage that storm does to 50, so that it will still 1-shot un micro'd marines after stim, and increase it's damage vs armored by a tad, could be cool if it was a projectile as well, making bio ball a viable option vs toss once storm is out. Don't ever forget about DTs, terran are very unlikely to have a raven floating around in their army at this time in the meta game, so you can use a couple DTs to quickly snipe ghosts if the terran isn't paying perfect attention.
People have beaten high templar builds using nothing but pure marines, not even medivacs, marauders, or anything else. Literally, pure marines. High templar as is really is not overpowering at all.
|
On March 06 2011 10:49 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 10:38 CatNzHat wrote:
HTs are much more powerful than any of the other casters, and they can be created super quickly and wherever you want for easy crisis management, also they don't require hardly any skill to use (unlike the new fungal, or moving a ghost up to EMP without having it get pwnt first by gateway units)
Personally I think they should decrease the damage that storm does to 50, so that it will still 1-shot un micro'd marines after stim, and increase it's damage vs armored by a tad, could be cool if it was a projectile as well, making bio ball a viable option vs toss once storm is out. Don't ever forget about DTs, terran are very unlikely to have a raven floating around in their army at this time in the meta game, so you can use a couple DTs to quickly snipe ghosts if the terran isn't paying perfect attention. People have beaten high templar builds using nothing but pure marines, not even medivacs, marauders, or anything else. Literally, pure marines. High templar as is really is not overpowering at all.
Okay, this might be true in lower leagues, but whatever its not all that important...
There is very important and fundamental question to ask.
Lets say, that Zergs have problems with banshee (or VR) builds. So there are 2 approach to this, harder and easier.
Harder way to balance would be changing banshees and/or queens, based on relations with other units too, leading into better balanced state, where zerg could defend it easier.
Easier way would be to remove part of planning & decision making - one of most important aspects of RTS gaming - and simply make queen build time 5 seconds, starting energy 100 for couple of transfusions, maybe increase range/regen rate... And it would became seemingly balanced too.
The problem with this easier approach is that it is bad for game. It makes game less about planning, less about decisions making, even less about scouting - killing core fundaments of RTS gaming.
This is something I noticed while ago, and what frankly isnt so sumprising to me - when I said that removing amulet is good thing, a lot people ofc responded that protoss need it - but when I said that storm could be rebalanced around removed amulet, they simply didnt want it.
Because its always better to have weaker storm, that can be used well even if you make several mistakes, miss key timings, plan poorly and make a lot of bad decisions...
...compared to stronger storm, which is more skill-dependent and requires better understanding to game.
At least for lower players.
As I said before, people overrate balance. Give me 10 seconds, let me make patch, it will have single line of patch changes, and game will be 100% balanced. But nobody will play it anymore.
Balance is not as important as mechanics around which is established.
Warp-in and KA combo is bad mechanics. One of them, either KA or warp-in, has to go. And this is true, no matter whether it is going to imbalance or balance game.
|
On March 06 2011 10:49 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 10:38 CatNzHat wrote:
HTs are much more powerful than any of the other casters, and they can be created super quickly and wherever you want for easy crisis management, also they don't require hardly any skill to use (unlike the new fungal, or moving a ghost up to EMP without having it get pwnt first by gateway units)
Personally I think they should decrease the damage that storm does to 50, so that it will still 1-shot un micro'd marines after stim, and increase it's damage vs armored by a tad, could be cool if it was a projectile as well, making bio ball a viable option vs toss once storm is out. Don't ever forget about DTs, terran are very unlikely to have a raven floating around in their army at this time in the meta game, so you can use a couple DTs to quickly snipe ghosts if the terran isn't paying perfect attention. People have beaten high templar builds using nothing but pure marines, not even medivacs, marauders, or anything else. Literally, pure marines. High templar as is really is not overpowering at all.
And I've beaten X builds using nothing but pure SCV. What's your point?
|
United States7483 Posts
On March 06 2011 11:45 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 10:49 Whitewing wrote:On March 06 2011 10:38 CatNzHat wrote:
HTs are much more powerful than any of the other casters, and they can be created super quickly and wherever you want for easy crisis management, also they don't require hardly any skill to use (unlike the new fungal, or moving a ghost up to EMP without having it get pwnt first by gateway units)
Personally I think they should decrease the damage that storm does to 50, so that it will still 1-shot un micro'd marines after stim, and increase it's damage vs armored by a tad, could be cool if it was a projectile as well, making bio ball a viable option vs toss once storm is out. Don't ever forget about DTs, terran are very unlikely to have a raven floating around in their army at this time in the meta game, so you can use a couple DTs to quickly snipe ghosts if the terran isn't paying perfect attention. People have beaten high templar builds using nothing but pure marines, not even medivacs, marauders, or anything else. Literally, pure marines. High templar as is really is not overpowering at all. And I've beaten X builds using nothing but pure SCV. What's your point?
The point I'm making is that if you can straight up beat a player with a strategy that is directly countered by the strategy your opponent is doing, and he is not a bad player, then the strategy he is doing is not overpowered. Strong? Certainly, that's the whole idea. But if it were overpowered, it would never lose, and wouldn't even be close. I also guarantee you haven't beaten builds with pure scvs past the first 2 minutes of a game where you bum scv rush and get lucky enough to kill the player with it, or unless your opponent did something silly like a terrible 6 pool.
On March 06 2011 11:15 Sek-Kuar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 10:49 Whitewing wrote:On March 06 2011 10:38 CatNzHat wrote:
HTs are much more powerful than any of the other casters, and they can be created super quickly and wherever you want for easy crisis management, also they don't require hardly any skill to use (unlike the new fungal, or moving a ghost up to EMP without having it get pwnt first by gateway units)
Personally I think they should decrease the damage that storm does to 50, so that it will still 1-shot un micro'd marines after stim, and increase it's damage vs armored by a tad, could be cool if it was a projectile as well, making bio ball a viable option vs toss once storm is out. Don't ever forget about DTs, terran are very unlikely to have a raven floating around in their army at this time in the meta game, so you can use a couple DTs to quickly snipe ghosts if the terran isn't paying perfect attention. People have beaten high templar builds using nothing but pure marines, not even medivacs, marauders, or anything else. Literally, pure marines. High templar as is really is not overpowering at all. Okay, this might be true in lower leagues, but whatever its not all that important...
Actually, I was referring to pro-level matches in Korea. Day9 has a replay that he did a daily on of this happening, and the protoss was actually ahead for most of the early game with stalker harass. That's certainly not "lower league"
And perfectly balancing the game would be absurdly easy. Remove protoss and zerg: Bam, game balanced. It certainly wouldn't be fun anymore though.
|
Yeah its not lower league, but it also didnt happen - I remember it pretty clear that Rainbow won that game with Ghosts and marauders too. Maybe in early midgame before HTs really kicked in, but he definitelly didnt win that game with pure marines.
But as I said, thats not all that important, even if it was true it wouldnt change anything.
|
On March 06 2011 10:20 dragonblade369 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2011 09:39 Sek-Kuar wrote:On March 05 2011 09:18 Aerakin wrote:On March 05 2011 08:38 Toadvine wrote:
I'm seriously starting to wonder whether removing Warpgates altogether would be better for Protoss gameplay and game balance in general. All the problems with Protoss seem to be a consequence of the existence of Warpgates and Force Field. Seriously? Might as well remove colossus as well, since they cause so much problems. Warpgates are the very core of protoss gameplay. If they remove that, they'd have to buff the race in some other areas. Anyhow, simply removing Warpgates wouldn't "fix" balance. The whole freaking race was made with warpgates in mind to begin with. We all know that. But balance is not as important as mechanics around which is established. For emaple I know at least 2 ways how could I make SC2 100% balanced in about 10 seconds, however both of them would kill it as a game. People overrate balance. You are those type of guys to say a lot of stuffs but do nothing to deliver it. You are basically saying that you are smarter than the whole blizzard balancing team and most of the pro players. I really hate people like that.
I'm pretty sure he's referring to cutting two of the races out of the game or similar. He's just pointing out that balance isn't necessarily desirable if it means having everything be the same.
Yeah its not lower league, but it also didnt happen - I remember it pretty clear that Rainbow won that game with Ghosts and marauders too. Maybe in early midgame before HTs really kicked in, but he definitelly didnt win that game with pure marines.
But as I said, thats not all that important, even if it was true it wouldnt change anything.
You can either look at his statement about that game literally ("player x built all marines all game") and refute it because there were also a few units built that weren't marines or you can look at the fact that the terran army was almost entirely marine the entire game and realize that he's fundamentally correct.
|
This thread is still going ... wow.
|
Okay, this might be true in lower leagues, but whatever its not all that important...
Day9 just owned you!!!!
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4807584/
Marines owning Templar ahaha!!!! Funny fact.
|
On March 02 2011 04:14 dala wrote:
This is a necessary patch. Storming of mineral lines is way too powerful.
Have you ever heard of storm drops? Storming mineral lines has been done for 12 years.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
